Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: redrumloa on November 14, 2007, 01:26:03 PM
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Japan shuns Vista and embraces Leopard, giving Apple a greater marketshare than Microsoft.
HERE (http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/11/13/mac.up.win.down.in.japan/)
Mac claims more Japan OS sales than Windows
Microsoft's has taken a bruising in the Japanese marketplace just as Apple's Mac OS X Leopard was released, according to a new report by the country's Business Computer News. The publication notes that while sales of Mac OS X increased dramatically between September and October, climbing from a rate of 15.5 percent year-over-year to 60.5 percent, Microsoft suffered from the reverse effect. Sales growth of Windows plummeted from 75.3 percent to 28.7 percent. The sudden switch provided Apple with about 53.9 of the total OS-only marketshare in Japan during October -- a breakthrough for the company, BCN says.
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I figured I'd mention I've peronally had a very positive experience with Apple lately. Our Mac mini died an untimely death and at first I found the Apple store's handling very poor. After a bit of complaining we got a call back from an Apple corporate rep and their response was way, way above what we would have expected. Our Mac mini solo was replaced with a brand new Mac Mini Duo for the repair cost, Leopard was included and we were given a $100 voucher for our troubles. The Apple store handled our case poorly, they agreed.
Very positive indeed, especially considering the cold reposnse most PC companies give nowadays (cough cough, HP).
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I wonder how much of it has to do with language support. The multi language support in OSX is a lot better than in windows. It's going to be sad if OSX ends up blowing Windows out of the water.
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I don't know about sad, I'd be happy to see it. There is no doubt in my mind Apple is putting out a far superior product. I see M$ getting toppled, Japan usually leads the way in consumer electronics with the USA and Europe following.
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It begins..... :evilgrin:
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moto
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koaftder wrote:
...It's going to be sad if OSX ends up blowing Windows out of the water.
Why is that sad? Is there a hidden note of sarcasm here?
I have had two groups of Japanese tourists renting from me, and both have had macbooks. I've had to set up their wireless access for my home router. I'm not overly fond of the airmac software interface, but I don't think it's any worse than Windows or Linux alternatives. The connection 'wizard' leaves a bit to be desired, but there are ways around the problems.
The language support does appear pretty seemless (not that I understand much Japanese).
I can certainly understand the appeal of a macbook for a Japanese tourist. A lot of features are useful, and hassle free.
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Lots of Asian people seem to be using a Mac. At work, that's a University Hospital, a lot of Chinese, Indonesian, Indian and other Asian students use a Mac.
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well, I don't think vista has any appeal over XP other than gaming purposes. And in japan people buy consoles to play games so no reason to buy vista actually.
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Oliver wrote:
koaftder wrote:
...It's going to be sad if OSX ends up blowing Windows out of the water.
Why is that sad? Is there a hidden note of sarcasm here?
No sarcasm, I just like Windows thats all. I like the mac too. I use both on a daily basis, but for different reasons.
I use the mac for personal stuff, the photo library, the music library, email and web surfing. When people ask me what kind of computer they should get, I point them to a mac. It provides the least annoying experience for somebody who isn't very familiar with computers. No licenses, no hordes of trial software, etc. Good apps right out of the box. A lot of people never install any software on their mac, it comes with everything they will ever need right out of the box.
As for work stuff, the mac just doesn't cut it, mainly because most of the software I use on a daily basis isn't ported to the mac. Having written software on Windows for 10 years, it has become a comfortable environment. I find that properly maintained, windows is more responsive than OSX and chews up less memory.
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redrumloa wrote:
I don't know about sad, I'd be happy to see it. There is no doubt in my mind Apple is putting out a far superior product. I see M$ getting toppled, Japan usually leads the way in consumer electronics with the USA and Europe following.
Like Betamax, the mini-disc and MSX!
LOL
;-)
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B00tDisk wrote:
redrumloa wrote:
I don't know about sad, I'd be happy to see it. There is no doubt in my mind Apple is putting out a far superior product. I see M$ getting toppled, Japan usually leads the way in consumer electronics with the USA and Europe following.
Like Betamax, the mini-disc and MSX!
LOL
;-)
Exactly, how Japan did not embrace all 3 and see how all 3 fell in comparison to the products that Japan did embrace, VHS, Compact Disk and the Commodore 64.
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Well, I can't see Windows really dying, but I wouldn't mind if it matured.
I also use Windows for most of my work. I need to use a lot of software which is written for Winows only, so it definitely has it's uses for me, but I can't say I really like it.
There are too many annoyances, and the design methodology of MS (not talking about their business methodology) goes against the grain. I feel Windows is something I can force to perform the way I need it too.
It's been a while since I've written any software for Windows, but I am told that it has convenient API's. I think that certainly would be appealing.
Dare I say it, I also like what the Windows user base has to offer. When I used Mac classic, it was often not easy to get info on how to force the OS to perform in a non standard way. I'm guessing that's not such an issue in OSX.
I think it would be a real plus if MS had a powerful motivation to improve Vista. I don't look forward to learning how to customise another Windows OS. It's usually quite a hassle to tame each of their new monsters.
I need to buy a new PC soon, but I'll probably install a second hand XP Pro.
oops, rambling again...
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redrumloa wrote:
... Very positive indeed, especially considering the cold reposnse most PC companies give nowadays (cough cough, HP).
Microsoft themselves offer a truly miserable support.
When I bought the original box of Windows NT 4.0 back in 1997, I was allowed 2 telephone calls on a long distance number.
Prior to buying NT 4.0, I had NT 3.51 and it cost me 99$ US to talk to someone...
:yuck:
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Keep in mind that if you are buying Mac OS X Leopard, you already own a Mac.
Apple didn't gain any new users, they just sold an upgrade to existing users.
Total gain in market share for Apple = 0%.
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It's incredible what people call poor support here in this forum. If I go to the Apple store and need help, it's $100 just to speak to someone personally for an hour. Also it's $75 an hour to talk to the Geek Squad at Best Buy, Or FireDog at Circuit City.
Apple can claim all the the sales they want, but how many people are buying Apple hardware and running some form of Windows through BootCamp or Parallels Desktop.
Realize Apple is going after the consumer market, this doesn't talk about what's happened with Vista in the Enterprise, or even Windows 2008 server or Home Server which haven't even showed up on the radar yet, and Apple likes to talk P.R. I doubt Microsoft (a personal opinion) is even talking numbers at this time of the year.
Also, one of the interesting things on the leopard disc is bootcamp drivers for 32 bit XP and Vista for all of the Mac's Intel hardware as it's feature. That would make Apple the number one "PC compatible" if their numbers are true..
It's a little bit like comparing Apples to Oranges so to speak. Microsoft makes software, and accessories. They aren't the PC hardware maker, there are several of them. Apple sells hardware..
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mongo wrote:
Keep in mind that if you are buying Mac OS X Leopard, you already own a Mac.
Apple didn't gain any new users, they just sold an upgrade to existing users.
Total gain in market share for Apple = 0%.
By that same logic, people are buying Vista to go on their already existing PC's. So total gain for Microsoft market share is also 0%
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This is fantastic news! Arigato Nippon!! :-)
Because we'd be more than 20 years ahead, technologically, if it wasn't for this M$ stagnation cesspool we're in.
koaftder wrote:
ported to the mac. Having written software on Windows for 10 years, it has become a comfortable environment. I find that
@koafder:
No offense, but by your logic I should still be programming DOS apps, because I was comfortable with them, and considering any other platform inadequate. Thus save myself from any positive self-evolution and personal development.
It's also completely illogical when people say that their programs aren't available for platform X, therefore the platform is inadequate. Sure, program 1 from platform Y might not be called 1 on platform X, but platform X, 99% of the time, has program 2 which does the same things more or less with program 1. I'm sick and tired of hearing this argument. And worse of all it's coming from people who actually where there when their favorite platform was at an infantile stage and DIDN'T have any software (Amiga anyone?). Yes, software gets created and evolves - it's not innate. Duh. So, of course a crappy platform like Windows which has been TRYING to get a decent media player (anyone remember the pre-Win3.0 days' first attempts at Windows Media Player?) for the last 20 years, will have more software than a newer platform. That doesn't mean that imbalance will stay that way, and it also doesn't mean that the newer platform will have worse applications. In fact, it's so funny, Apple came out of nowhere with iTunes, and look at things now: iTunes is the *de facto* media player! In under 5-6 years. (I'm mostly an MPlayer guy btw)
The fact of the matter is that any good programmer can do almost ANYTHING with any platform, however crappy it may be. Witness all the cool GUI environments on ZX Speccys, C64s and Amstrads, or one of the hairiest platforms ever: Windows. People have still managed to do great things on top of it, despite all the limitations (let's not get into 16bit code, hunks, segmented memory models and all the putrid garbage it entailed).
And to be honest, your opinion seems to be biased as you yourself say you've been doing Windows apps for a long time. Have you tried doing OS X or reading the fantastic set of resources and documentation that is provided freely with it?
Myself, I've gone the opposite way: used to do DOS / Windows / Linux apps (last thing I touched was unVisual Studio 2005 I think it was), and once I discovered Mac OS X (in 2005) + Cocoa/Objective-C/Xcode/InterfaceBuilder/Shark/ObjectAlloc, I was pulling my hair out for not having seen "the light" back in the NeXTSTEP days.
My friend, you along with many "stalwart" developers been living in a cave, as was I for years. The core development technologies in OS X are way way ahead of what "Visual" crap M$ has been pushing down devs throats. Words cannot simply do them justice. Suffice to say they're part of the technological trio that Jobs "stole" from Xerox Parc, no doubt the premier inventors of computer technology in the last half century (if you're interested check out: http://product.half.ebay.com/Dealers-of-Lightning_W0QQprZ850632QQtgZinfo ).
I highly urge you, and any other developers, to check out Xcode 3.0 + latest IB and the plethora of FREE developer tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Developer_Tools) that Mac OS X provides, and since we're talking about technologies that are of essence to developers here's a challenge: show me anything as good or even close to Shark/Instruments (used to be called XRay) or ThreadViewer or some of the OpenGL tuning tools (ex: http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/opengl_serious.html) on other platforms. (please, no responses if you've not played with any of the tools for 30-40 minutes - it'd render your opinion useless)
Cheers, and be AFRAID NOT dear friends, the future can only get better from now on! I know you're under the deepest, darkest spell, and just like Darth Vader & co, Microsoft has an uncanny ability to pacify and sedate your sharpest wit, and make you believe you're in good hands, and that change is bad for you. But change CAN be good and in this case your fellow Amigans are voicing more than ever this sentiment. Choice (AROS, MorphOS, AmigaOS4, Linux, *BSD, Mac OS X, etc,etc) and freedom is rising like a Phoenix from the ashes. Allow yourself to be EDUCATED, for education is the key to breaking away from the digital slavery you're bound in. The dark ages seem to be coming to pass.
PS1. Sorry for the epic epilogue, but as a hardcore technologist, with much blood spilled after the days of C='s decay, I'm delirious and ecstatic about the bright future I see for all of us.
PS2. Not included are the bad things in the Apple camp, and that's because the discussion wasn't focused on that, but on the Mac OS X as a good development platform. Apple and Mac OS X have plenty of things they've got to fix, no doubt, and having been used them and lived them I can honestly say so, yet they bring many more positive things to the table. And because of that, at the end of the day, in my honest opinion, I'd rather be a slave to Apple any day than to a third rate company with third rate products. This is very much like my stance was with Commodore: boy did Commodore have problems, and even the venerable Amiga was not perfect, both in the hardware and the software, but you know what? Compared to the alternative (IBM PC & DOS), I'd rather be a Commie {bleep} Slave any time of the day!
PS3. I sincerely apologize for the length, but you've got the choice to not read it! :-D
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Well, what can I said.
Here in Mexico (sad but true, third world), the fight of MS vs Apple is so strange.
In my work we have the two systems, and they are a headache. In my country, at any level, we work with Win98 to Vista, and System 7 to Leopard.
I'm a Graphic Designer, working since 90's with Amiga, now in PC. The Mac are too expensive but its a status for who got one.
In general, all hate MS, love Mac, and (too sadly) pirate all the software what they can.
And the two companies sell too much hardware and software anyway.
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downix wrote:
By that same logic, people are buying Vista to go on their already existing PC's. So total gain for Microsoft market share is also 0%
That is not really what is happening. For Vista you really need a new AND expensive PC, a cheap PC from three years ago simply wont do. On top of that as soon as Vista SP1 is released you will need to buy a new video card since cards one year or older are deemed "unowrthy". That is the reason many people are staying with XP (and a few are tempted to try Linux). But if you really need to buy a new PC, might as well be a Mac with XP installed in a partition for games and using Paralles to run applications. Also, Japanese users do like to have the newest gadgets, so they do buy new PCs quite often, so what we see today in Japan might be seen happening in the USA in three years.
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da9000 wrote:
It's also completely illogical when people say that their programs aren't available for platform X, therefore the platform is inadequate. Sure, program 1 from platform Y might not be called 1 on platform X, but platform X, 99% of the time, has program 2 which does the same things more or less with program 1.
I like the mac and OSX and use it from time to time for work however I have not made the switch because:
- I'm an Oracle database developer and there are no development tools on the Mac for Oracle (not that I've seen anyways)
- Cost... I can buy a laptop with Vista for hundreds cheaper than a Mac
- Finally, the games that I like to play just aren't available on the Mac.
I did see an interesting article the other day which showed how to install OSX on standard, off the shelf intel hardware... I wonder if I could set up a dual boot environment on my laptop.... :roll: :lol:
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downix wrote:
By that same logic, people are buying Vista to go on their already existing PC's. So total gain for Microsoft market share is also 0%
Because people can't buy or assemble a new PC and buy Vista to run on it?
Not to mention the fact that Microsoft really doesn't need to gain any market share.
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da9000 wrote:
This is fantastic news! Arigato Nippon!! :-)
Because we'd be more than 20 years ahead, technologically, if it wasn't for this M$ stagnation cesspool we're in.
koaftder wrote:
ported to the mac. Having written software on Windows for 10 years, it has become a comfortable environment. I find that
@koafder:
No offense
None taken. :-)
but by your logic I should still be programming DOS apps, because I was comfortable with them, and considering any other platform inadequate. Thus save myself from any positive self-evolution and personal development.
Not really. You move up when new platforms come around that provide a better environment. Win32, *nix, and OSX are all stable, modern, well maintained operating systems that provide equivalent features. None are really better than the other, they are just different. Why should I move on to only develop for OSX when it's not a significantly better OS for hosting my applications? Especially when none of my customers uses OSX?
It's also completely illogical when people say that their programs aren't available for platform X, therefore the platform is inadequate. Sure, program 1 from platform Y might not be called 1 on platform X, but platform X, 99% of the time, has program 2 which does the same things more or less with program 1. I'm sick and tired of hearing this argument. And worse of all it's coming from people who actually where there when their favorite platform was at an infantile stage and DIDN'T have any software (Amiga anyone?). Yes, software gets created and evolves - it's not innate. Duh. So, of course a crappy platform like Windows which has been TRYING to get a decent media player (anyone remember the pre-Win3.0 days' first attempts at Windows Media Player?) for the last 20 years, will have more software than a newer platform. That doesn't mean that imbalance will stay that way, and it also doesn't mean that the newer platform will have worse applications. In fact, it's so funny, Apple came out of nowhere with iTunes, and look at things now: iTunes is the *de facto* media player! In under 5-6 years. (I'm mostly an MPlayer guy btw)
I never said OSX was an inadequate OS because the apps I need to use to do my job aren't available on that platform. If i need a new machine I can't convince the boss to provide funding for a mac when the tools we use don't run on the mac. Macs are selling well, to consumers, no so much for business environments.
The fact of the matter is that any good programmer can do almost ANYTHING with any platform, however crappy it may be. Witness all the cool GUI environments on ZX Speccys, C64s and Amstrads, or one of the hairiest platforms ever: Windows. People have still managed to do great things on top of it, despite all the limitations (let's not get into 16bit code, hunks, segmented memory models and all the putrid garbage it entailed).
This is true. A good programmer can write just about anything for any platform. A programmer who wants to eat and make a living must be selective.
And to be honest, your opinion seems to be biased as you yourself say you've been doing Windows apps for a long time. Have you tried doing OS X or reading the fantastic set of resources and documentation that is provided freely with it?
I use OSX every day. I have written a few apps for OSX as well (hobby stuff).
Myself, I've gone the opposite way: used to do DOS / Windows / Linux apps (last thing I touched was unVisual Studio 2005 I think it was), and once I discovered Mac OS X (in 2005) + Cocoa/Objective-C/Xcode/InterfaceBuilder/Shark/ObjectAlloc, I was pulling my hair out for not having seen "the light" back in the NeXTSTEP days.
My friend, you along with many "stalwart" developers been living in a cave, as was I for years. The core development technologies in OS X are way way ahead of what "Visual" crap M$ has been pushing down devs throats. Words cannot simply do them justice. Suffice to say they're part of the technological trio that Jobs "stole" from Xerox Parc, no doubt the premier inventors of computer technology in the last half century (if you're interested check out: http://product.half.ebay.com/Dealers-of-Lightning_W0QQprZ850632QQtgZinfo ).
I highly urge you, and any other developers, to check out Xcode 3.0 + latest IB and the plethora of FREE developer tools (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Developer_Tools) that Mac OS X provides, and since we're talking about technologies that are of essence to developers here's a challenge: show me anything as good or even close to Shark/Instruments (used to be called XRay) or ThreadViewer or some of the OpenGL tuning tools (ex: http://developer.apple.com/graphicsimaging/opengl/opengl_serious.html) on other platforms. (please, no responses if you've not played with any of the tools for 30-40 minutes - it'd render your opinion useless)
I've written software for a lot of different platforms over the years. Each platform has a different way of doing stuff. Some things are easy, others hard, it's all the same. Just different ways of getting the job done. Xcode is nice, it's suited perfectly for writing apps on the mac. Cocoa is neat, objC is cool, it's just yet another way of doing things. It isn't any better than anything else, it's just different. No language or set of libraries will ever compensate for good application design and programming capability. Languages and libraries don't write applications, people do. C# and the .Net framework isn't any better or worse than objC and Cocoa or Java for that matter. It's all just different ways to accomplish the same things.
Cheers, and be AFRAID NOT dear friends, the future can only get better from now on! I know you're under the deepest, darkest spell, and just like Darth Vader & co, Microsoft has an uncanny ability to pacify and sedate your sharpest wit, and make you believe you're in good hands, and that change is bad for you. But change CAN be good and in this case your fellow Amigans are voicing more than ever this sentiment. Choice (AROS, MorphOS, AmigaOS4, Linux, *BSD, Mac OS X, etc,etc) and freedom is rising like a Phoenix from the ashes. Allow yourself to be EDUCATED, for education is the key to breaking away from the digital slavery you're bound in. The dark ages seem to be coming to pass.
You need to get out a little more! :lol:
PS1. Sorry for the epic epilogue, but as a hardcore technologist, with much blood spilled after the days of C='s decay, I'm delirious and ecstatic about the bright future I see for all of us.
PS2. Not included are the bad things in the Apple camp, and that's because the discussion wasn't focused on that, but on the Mac OS X as a good development platform. Apple and Mac OS X have plenty of things they've got to fix, no doubt, and having been used them and lived them I can honestly say so, yet they bring many more positive things to the table. And because of that, at the end of the day, in my honest opinion, I'd rather be a slave to Apple any day than to a third rate company with third rate products. This is very much like my stance was with Commodore: boy did Commodore have problems, and even the venerable Amiga was not perfect, both in the hardware and the software, but you know what? Compared to the alternative (IBM PC & DOS), I'd rather be a Commie {bleep} Slave any time of the day!
PS3. I sincerely apologize for the length, but you've got the choice to not read it! :-D
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little wrote:
That is not really what is happening. For Vista you really need a new AND expensive PC, a cheap PC from three years ago simply wont do. On top of that as soon as Vista SP1 is released you will need to buy a new video card since cards one year or older are deemed "unowrthy".
I often wonder if the people bashing Vista have actually ever used it.
Vista runs quite nicely on my PC that consists of a $30 motherboard, a $7 CPU, a $12 heat sink and fan, $40 worth of ram, an $87 hard drive, a $22 case, a $15 power supply, a $34 DVD burner, a $25 CD burner, a $15 sound card, a $40 video card, and a $10 monitor.
I also have a $7 keyboard and a $12 mouse.
That's $356 in total. Not really an expensive PC, by any standards.
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I often wonder if the people bashing Vista have actually ever used it.
Yes, hated it.
M$ did a fair job with XP, best effort they have ever done. Vista IMHO is on the same level as Win95(rev-a) or WinME. Total garbage.
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Fanboyism in all its forms is rather sad, but Microsoft fanboyism is in a league of its own.
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mongo wrote:
little wrote:
That is not really what is happening. For Vista you really need a new AND expensive PC, a cheap PC from three years ago simply wont do. On top of that as soon as Vista SP1 is released you will need to buy a new video card since cards one year or older are deemed "unowrthy".
I often wonder if the people bashing Vista have actually ever used it.
Vista runs quite nicely on my PC that consists of a $30 motherboard, a $7 CPU, a $12 heat sink and fan, $40 worth of ram, an $87 hard drive, a $22 case, a $15 power supply, a $34 DVD burner, a $25 CD burner, a $15 sound card, a $40 video card, and a $10 monitor.
I also have a $7 keyboard and a $12 mouse.
That's $356 in total. Not really an expensive PC, by any standards.
Compared to the $200 PC Walmart sells that comes with Linux....
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uncharted wrote:
Fanboyism in all its forms is rather sad, but Microsoft fanboyism is in a league of its own.
LOL... not hating MS = fanboyism???
I wish I could share your enthusiasm, but not everyone can get by on an A500/WB2.
--edit
Viewpoint 1: All OSes have their positives and negatives, I use and enjoy many. IMO, Vista runs reasonably well on cheap hardware.
Viewpoint 2: If you're not browsing on 030's and cursing MS with every breath, you're an MS fanboy and AOS2 traitor. Besides, Vista crawlz even on dual-core and has no redeeming attributes for anyone.
Now which one sounds rational/healthy to you?
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mongo wrote:
$40 worth of ram
You are pulling my leg, rught? You are running Vista with only 512 Mb of RAM? That is the bare minimum for XP. Do you really do anything besides websurfing with that machine?
a $22 case, a $15 power supply
A case already comes with a power supply, another indication that you are yanking at my leg.
a $10 monitor.
Come on, where can you buy a new vga monitor for ten bucks? If this machine was built with used parts then it is not a clear reflection of market prices.
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little wrote:
mongo wrote:
$40 worth of ram
You are pulling my leg, rught? You are running Vista with only 512 Mb of RAM? That is the bare minimum for XP. Do you really do anything besides websurfing with that machine?
a $22 case, a $15 power supply
A case already comes with a power supply, another indication that you are yanking at my leg.
a $10 monitor.
Come on, where can you buy a new vga monitor for ten bucks? If this machine was built with used parts then it is not a clear reflection of market prices.
You can easily pick up a crt monitor for 10 dollars at a thrift store.
For what it's worth, I installed Vista on a 3GHz p4 i got 3 years ago for 500 dollars (shuttle model). 512MB ram, and Vista runs on it just fine.
When win95 came out, All kinds of people {bleep}ed profusely.
When Win98 came out, all kinds of people {bleep}ed profusely, and recommended sticking to 95
When Win2k, all kinds of people {bleep}ed profusely and recommended sticking to win98
When XP came out, all kinds of people {bleep}ed profusely and recommended sticking to 2k
when vista came out, all kinds of people {bleep}ed profusely...
See the pattern? And in every instance, just about everybody kept using windows.
When Apple farts people sniff and cheer. People pay 250 dollars for a 4gb flash ipod and 600 dollars for an iPhone.
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Viewpoint 1: All OSes have their positives and negatives,
Actually quite misleadung. By the same logic even Hitler made something good in his lifetime and even mother Teresa must have done something wrong. It is not the existence of positives and negatives that matter, it is the net sum of them. Therefore there are hideous OSes (i.e. Windows ME) and funtional OSes.
I use and enjoy many.
Truth is if you use many OSes you enjoy some and endure the others; with time you get comfortable with those you had to endure the same way you would get comfy with your kidnappers, you might even end loving them!!!
IMO, Vista runs reasonably well on cheap hardware.
Again quite misleading, that is a subjective point of view, some people surf the net with their commodore 64 and would say that it "runs reasonably well on cheap hardware" because they have gotten used to it.
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When win95 came out ... See the pattern?
I was there, I remember all of it. New windows releases (BTW, you skipped 3.11 and earlier) had always required improved hardware. But with windows vista you need new hardware, people can fool themselves all they want (I mean, they are doing so in their own free time) but anyone that uses their PC for anything beyond web browsing (i.e. for gaming) will not touch Vista at the present time because it does not run fine, period.
edit:
When Apple farts people sniff and cheer.
It seems you have confused me with an apple lover or the like, I have no ipod, iphone, iwhatever.
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little wrote:
You are pulling my leg, rught? You are running Vista with only 512 Mb of RAM? That is the bare minimum for XP. Do you really do anything besides websurfing with that machine?
Actually, I've recently upgraded to 1 gig, but Vista does run fine with 512 Mb.
A case already comes with a power supply, another indication that you are yanking at my leg.
First of all, not all cases come with power supplies. My case did, but I replaced it with a better one.
Come on, where can you buy a new vga monitor for ten bucks? If this machine was built with used parts then it is not a clear reflection of market prices.
I never said the monitor was new. It is a used HP 20 inch CRT. Works quite nicely.
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downix wrote:
Compared to the $200 PC Walmart sells that comes with Linux....
The $200 PC from Walmart could probably run Vista too.
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little wrote:
When win95 came out ... See the pattern?
I was there, I remember all of it. New windows releases (BTW, you skipped 3.11 and earlier) had always required improved hardware. But with windows vista you need new hardware, people can fool themselves all they want (I mean, they are doing so in their own free time) but anyone that uses their PC for anything beyond web browsing (i.e. for gaming) will not touch Vista at the present time because it does not run fine, period.
You don't necessarily need a new machine for Vista. At worst you won't get aero. The OS upgrade really isn't any different than going to OSX 10.5. Tell me that putting 10.5 on your 1.5GHz g4 mac you bought 3 years ago isn't going to bog the crap out of that machine. Going from 10.3 to 10.4 sure did in my case. The mac will happily run whatever you throw at it, and it will choke and sputter and throw up an animated multi color pinwheel and make you wait 20 seconds between app switches every time.
I like the mac, but it isn't the holy grail to computing that the fanboys like to say it is.
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@little
Cool, but as I see it, comparing OSes to Hit and kidnappers is far more ridiculous than anything I said.
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For all you Microsoft haters:
Too bad Microsoft didn't write amigaOS, maybe then it wouldn't have died. Still, concerning amiga basic, theres a little MS on every workbench disc.... :lol:
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I dont know what all the debating is about. Vista Enterprise runs just fine on my 3 yr old 2.2 AMD 3200+ with 1 GB RAM and a 128 MB Graphics Card. I have no bogginess or anything and actually like the Vista Enterprise. I havent tried the last MAC0sX but I do have 10.4?? (the one before this latest one) and can't really say it is any better than XP, actually I prefer XP Pro over it.
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Enough with the fanboy comments, everyone. :idea:
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mongo wrote:
Actually, I've recently upgraded to 1 gig, but Vista does run fine with 512 Mb.
It is hilarious to me how people do not realize they are making contradictory statements. If vista was fine with 512 Mb, why upgrade? I mean, the commodore 64 had only 64k and did run fine, you could upgrade but very few people did (even tough to this day it is the best selling computer model of all times) because *drum roll* it was fine as it is.
First of all, not all cases come with power supplies.
All new cases I can buy locally come with power supplies, then I suppose yours was also second hand.
I never said the monitor was new. It is a used HP 20 inch CRT. Works quite nicely.
I have no doubt it works quite nicely, I have buyed second hand hardware for many years and know first hand that you cannot compare the prices of new items with the low prices of used items. Besides, not two second hand items cost the same, it is a matter of luck, the time you expend searching for it and how the degree of computer knowledge you have (some people think they stuff is junk just because they do not know how to use/fix it).
@koaftder
You also seem to think I am a mac fanboy :roll:
As a side note, most people do not realize (the same way a fish does not realize he is surrounded by water) that there is a diference between "my OS is better" and "I am so used to my OS that when I use a better OS I dislike it because I have to relearn everything I already know how to do". Hence, the people that know quite a bit about windows in and outs are the same people that argue they like it better, but give your parents or children a new pc with linux and they will adapt to it quite easily.
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I'm a die-hard Microsoft fan and puritan. It's just amazing what you can do with MS-DOS 1.0. Browsing the internet, chatting, etcetera!
I use it everyday!
( ;-) )
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@-D-
Try not reading any more into a comment than what is actually stated.
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@little
I wasn't calling you an apple fanboy. I was just pointing out that every time apple does something, people get all excited about it. Most likely because everybody loves the "underdog".
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You don't necessarily need a new machine for Vista. At worst you won't get aero.
IMO, if you are not going to get aero, DX10, etc. it is quite pointless to upgrade to Vista. It is like getting a new car with you old cars engine.
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uncharted wrote:
@-D-
Try not reading any more into a comment than what is actually stated.
I usually don't, but there were no MS "fanbois" on this thread, therefore your comment seemed directed at those making "common sense" statements regarding Windows.
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little wrote:
You don't necessarily need a new machine for Vista. At worst you won't get aero.
IMO, if you are not going to get aero, DX10, etc. it is quite pointless to upgrade to Vista. It is like getting a new car with you old cars engine.
How is running 10.5 on a G4 any different? It will be so slow it's not worth using. At least on Vista you can just turn off the eye candy and the machine runs smooth, can't do that on OSX.
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little wrote:
It is hilarious to me how people do not realize they are making contradictory statements. If vista was fine with 512 Mb, why upgrade? I mean, the commodore 64 had only 64k and did run fine, you could upgrade but very few people did (even tough to this day it is the best selling computer model of all times) because *drum roll* it was fine as it is.
Some of the software I use works better with 1 gig. (Under Win XP, btw.)
Besides I said Vista works fine with 512 Mb, which it does. I didn't say that it wouldn't work better with more memory.
Where's the contradiction, exactly?
All new cases I can buy locally come with power supplies, then I suppose yours was also second hand.
I suppose you live somewhere where there is only one crappy computer store then. Most high end cases do not come with a power supply.
No, my case was new. It even came with a power supply, as I previously mentioned. I just replaced it with a better one.
I have no doubt it works quite nicely, I have buyed second hand hardware for many years and know first hand that you cannot compare the prices of new items with the low prices of used items. Besides, not two second hand items cost the same, it is a matter of luck, the time you expend searching for it and how the degree of computer knowledge you have (some people think they stuff is junk just because they do not know how to use/fix it).
I bought two of them, actually...
New monitors are pretty cheap anyway, and you're going to need one no matter what PC you use, so it shouldn't really be considered in the cost of the computer itself.
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Where's the contradiction, exactly?
Does our vacuum cleaner works fine? Then it would not make sense if you changed the motor inside it. Does your refrigerator works fine? Then no use changing the motor in it? Does the company web server works fine? Then there it would be a waste of money to buy more memory from it. No, a computer cannot work fine if you need to buy more memory from it, either it is needed or it is a waste of money.
Most high end cases do not come with a power supply.
For me at least a personal computer case is a piece of utilitarian hardware, not a fashion statement nor a mainframa (that requires extra cooling hardware) housing.
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little wrote:
Where's the contradiction, exactly?
Does our vacuum cleaner works fine? Then it would not make sense if you changed the motor inside it. Does your refrigerator works fine? Then no use changing the motor in it? Does the company web server works fine? Then there it would be a waste of money to buy more memory from it. No, a computer cannot work fine if you need to buy more memory from it, either it is needed or it is a waste of money.
Most high end cases do not come with a power supply.
For me at least a personal computer case is a piece of utilitarian hardware, not a fashion statement nor a mainframa (that requires extra cooling hardware) housing.
Quit being anal, if you got any worse, you'd be pointing out typos and grammatical errors.
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@koaftder
If the moderators dim my comments are unapropiate for this messageboard they may give me warning or outright ban me. Othwerwise I will escersice my right to free speech, whether you think I am being anal or not.
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little wrote:
@koaftder
If the moderators dim my comments are unapropiate for this messageboard they may give me warning or outright ban me. Othwerwise I will escersice my right to free speech, whether you think I am being anal or not.
And I still have the right to point out your analness under the same rules, which i did in my previous post.
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downix wrote:
By that same logic, people are buying Vista to go on their already existing PC's. So total gain for Microsoft market share is also 0%
And therefore, Microsoft still topple Apple.
Compared to the $200 PC Walmart sells that comes with Linux....
Well run Windows or Linux; either way the PC looks cheaper than a Mac.
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Hi,
I hate to say this but the reason the Asians are using the
new MACS with Leopard are because they have the money to
purchase the Apple systems. After all they did take over
nearly 75% of the American workforce.
In order for Apple to be successful in America they will
have to lower their price for the new systems. Looked at
one the other day and decided to stay with PC running
Ubuntu Linux and Windows XP for games.
Still use my Amiga, but lately I have been letting it rest
and been using Amikit on my Gateway PC.
Apple right now with Leopard can take the computer market
if they lowered the price of their system in order to
compete with Vista systems, because Leopard is great, and
VISTA SUCCS. Would have bought an Apple system but price
was too high at $2100.oo to $2495.oo, had to settle for a
Ultra case, nvidia 680i motherboard, Q6600 processor and
2 Gigs mem, sold at TigerDirect for $850.oo. so much for
being a hard working American, can't afford anything I
would really like since I became married and bought a house.
smerf
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HI,
@mongo,
Vista runs quite nicely on my PC that consists of a
$30 motherboard,
a $7 CPU,
a $12 heat sink and fan,
$40 worth of ram,
an $87 hard drive,
a $22 case,
a $15 power supply,
a $34 DVD burner, a $25 CD burner,
a $15 sound card,
a $40 video card,
and a $10 monitor.
I also have a $7 keyboard and a $12 mouse.
You have either been shopping at the black market in
San Francisco, or BS'n big time. Please give me the
numbers and where you bought stuff that cheap in order to
run Vista. I am running a $599 Gateway special, with an
e6300 chip, and I am real curious to find out what $7.00
CPU you have that will run Vista. By the way I just
upgraded to a Q6600 system because I was not satisfied with
the speed of the E6300 chip. And of course you know that
the E6300 is a 1.86 GigHz dual core, and the Q6600 is a
2.4 gighz quad core. Yes I am an extreme gamer, thats
why I bought my Amiga's and thats why today I look at the
newest hottest stuff out there that I could afford, and
most of the time I catch this stuff on sale.
By the way where you live, Phillipines, Tiwan, Korea, or
US (San Fran) because thats the only places I think where
you could get equipment that cheap.
By the way whats your speed index?
smerf
Causing hate and discontent is one of my passions.
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It's a little bit like comparing Apples to Oranges so to speak. Microsoft makes software, and accessories. They aren't the PC hardware maker, there are several of them. Apple sells hardware..
Err no, Apple sells the whole widget
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Hi,
@little,
Ok so you are a little anal (get the pun),
anyhow just wanted to let you know you can go to
www.tigerdirect.com
and find a whole bunch of cases without power supplies. My
only concern about what mango said was a $7 CPU. They don't
make em that cheap, he had to buy it through the black
market on the streets for that price.
smerf
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That's my exact point, so it's difficult to compare a hardware maker to someone who sells OSes..
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The thing that's really important that Vista provides is the WPF/WCF functionality. WPF in Vista offers hardware acceleration over Windows XP...
People talk about things like Leopard's Core Graphics, but forget WPF which I program for every day and it rocks..
The sad part of all of this is I have about 5 computers one is a new core 2 duo mac mini. Let me say the hardware is flawless. After a year of Vista x64, and now Leopard I still prefer Windows Vista.
The response, feel and UI is just more professional and the OS does seem to offer more services. Leopard (with features like Time Machine) is just getting some things Windows has had for a while. As far as performance goes I like Apple hardware and it runs 32-bit Vista wonderfully. I have developed software on both platforms since the mid-1990s and honestly besides the Fan boy rhetoric I really don't see a clear advantage with either machine.
What I don't like about Apple's Ads:
Apple plays on people's intelligence with their advertising and their idea that they are smarter. Well the design of the hardware is nicer. I don't see the operating system being that either though it's coming along.
If you notice the common denominator story you'll hear about "switchers" is that they had a bad experience with a PC crashing or a virus or worm they couldn't handle for themselves. That's just a reflection on them and their usage not on the actual platform. Most people I know never has those problems.
I think Apple now makes one of the best Vista hardware boxes around, so you get my recommendation buy Apple Intel hardware to run Vista FAST. They also include all the intel drivers for vista function on the leopard disc as well..
It isn't a lark Apple put those on the install disc. They know they need it because if they won't gain marketshare. It's not just an insurance policy, Apple users are closet Windows users now too..
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@smerf:
You are an extreme gamer, thats why you are rocking a 600 dollar gateway box? GTFO
Somebody cobbled some years old crap-o hardware and ran vista on it, is it really that hard to believe? How much do you think this almost 4 year old p4 processor in my machine is worth? Probably not much.
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Hi,
@ koaftder
Very True about the extreme gamer, I play such games as Far Cry, Doom 3, Fear, Bioshock, and soon to be as soon as it comes out Crysis. Why do you think I upgraded, some of my games are playing sort of slow. I went from a Core Duo E6300 when it first came out to now a Q6600, wish I had the money for the new quad core but 1100 is beyond my price.
By the way I have a Dell with a P4 Pentium running at 2.6ghz, good enough for my Linspire box.
By the way just received the Ultra Q6600 in the mail the other day and am building it up. The Gateway GT5238E was a
pretty good computer, ran nice but was running out of horse power, if you know what I mean. Oh by extreme gamer I mean playing the newest and best on the market. Not Rolling Thunder on an Amiga. Has anyone ever beat that game, the furthest I could get was level 7. Well have fun with your P4, I am sure the original Doom and the original Quake will play fine on it, if not put it in your 603e A1200 Amiga (if you have one).
Don't play any games on the internet, just don't believe in it.
have a nice day
smerf
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little wrote:
Does our vacuum cleaner works fine? Then it would not make sense if you changed the motor inside it. Does your refrigerator works fine? Then no use changing the motor in it? Does the company web server works fine? Then there it would be a waste of money to buy more memory from it. No, a computer cannot work fine if you need to buy more memory from it, either it is needed or it is a waste of money.
Just because something works fine doesn't mean it can't get any better. Unless it is your goal in life to achieve a perfect state of mediocrity, of course.
For me at least a personal computer case is a piece of utilitarian hardware, not a fashion statement nor a mainframa (that requires extra cooling hardware) housing.
That really doesn't change the facts though, does it?
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Why care i thought this is A Amiga forum.. Shouldent this kind of post be posted on a mac forum ? I sure as Heck have no interest in either windows or mac if use for daily computing . Seems lately everyone is you know mac did this mac done that .Who tha F#"K cares.. If i did the same with Linux or even Windows i would have been sloughterd and trolled to death for beeing the feckin spammer that constantly dwell on that same damn topic .. I dont think mac OS is that much better than windows in regard either such as my mac mini got sold quite fast when i found out how over bloated and slow the os was on it "Tiger" .. When comparing to my old pc 733 celeron with 512mb ram and win xp .. Mac os is just a system with extreme Eyecandy and dodgy programs such as the errm Itunes, QuickTime etc etc ... But sure someone here seem to think it is the next amiga Os and the best invention since man discovered the Wheel.
Mac is better than windows Pc here is the proof topics :lol: :lol: sad sad. Ofcource it is a good alternative to our Mirosoft.. But it has still far to come i mean in programms. Games etc . For me OSX was just a hobby os like Amiga os as my work require real apps that can NOT be served on either.(native with out some kind of wm). Lets not forget the great pricing The Mac hardware represents :-o :-o :-o Dont give me you can dual bootcamp argument either couse it will only show the mac users have desperate need to still be using Windows.
I personally use XP for work, Vista "remeber when xp was new and buggy this will improve" for gaming and my own fully custom suse linux were i can change everything i hate and make a sytem that gives me a far better playground and performance than The above oses can provide... This is just my opinion though based on my experiences They can freely be discussed and argued but i for one dont see why everyone is so damn happy about OSX. I sure dident like it expected so much more after a whole lot of idiots reccomended me buying a OSX capable sytem running it as it was the os sent from heaven to save human kind. Wasted a load of cash at leased but i tried to use it for 2 months but no go.. My mac mini was far from the greatest hardware compared to most macs but it should have had a fair chance against my celeron and xp as it had supirior hardware and did great in linux..
I gues it is the design that does it like the ipod everyone buys ???? Not the best mp3 player on the market but it is different from the rest ;-)
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koaftder wrote:
I was just pointing out that every time apple does something, people get all excited about it. Most likely because everybody loves the "underdog".
Bzzzt, wrong. I am typing this on a Leopard based Mac, my wife's, because I think it is superior to Micro$oft's current offering. My usual personal PC has Ubuntu 7.10 Gutsy, because I find it superior to M$'s current offering. My house does not have a single Vista based machine. Yes I have used Vista and I have no use for it.
You want to love M$ and Vista, that is your right. I will say i am surprised anyone would be pleased with the malware/spyware built directly into Vista.
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adonay wrote:
Why care i thought this is A Amiga forum.. Shouldent this kind of post be posted on a mac forum ? I sure as Heck have no interest in either windows or mac if use for daily computing . Seems lately everyone is you know mac did this mac done that .Who tha F#"K cares.. If i did the same with Linux or even Windows i would have been sloughterd and trolled to death for beeing the feckin spammer that constantly dwell on that same damn topic ..
Calm down please, look at the forum this posted to.
Alternative Operating Systems
Discussion is allowed and why not? It's not as if OS4/MOS/AROS is taking over the world at this time.
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I find this thread a little embarrassing. It has a whiff of sour grapes?
"I hate M$ so much that I'll grasp at any news of weakness (real or otherwise)..."
If you read the article carefully, the news isnt actually all that exciting. The claimed "53.9 of the total OS-only marketshare" refers to -percentage of sales for the period stated- not an across-the-board indication of actual OS use.
...And no I dont "love" M$.
Nor do I love whiny, hard-done-by anti-M$ rants.