Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: gdanko on November 09, 2007, 02:24:09 PM
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Maybe I am stupid or maybe I am some sort of infidel, but I do not see the point of the MiniMig. This unit emulates a 7 MHz A500 for > $200 USD? Why bother buying this thing when you can get a real A500 for about $25 USD?
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gdanko wrote:
Maybe I am stupid or maybe I am some sort of infidel, but I do not see the point of the MiniMig. This unit emulates a 7 MHz A500 for > $200 USD? Why bother buying this thing when you can get a real A500 for about $25 USD?
But can you put a a500 in such a small case footprint? There is also less and less working a500 available.. Our hardware is aging, so any new hardware is very welcome in my opinion.
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A few points from the top of my head:
- Small footprint
- Brand new hardware, will last longer
- ADF support, no messing around with floppies
- Supports modern VGA monitors
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When all the original A500s are gone, it'll be good to have an open source method of making more.
Baby steps. You need to develop a clone A500 as a test-bed before you can develop a clone A1200, then a clone A4000 then a new MiniMig 060/PPC with PCI slots, USB, etc. etc. etc.
Did you learn to crawl before you could walk, and walk before you could run? Or did you start off as an olympic sprinter from day one?
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And what happens when the A500's have all gone :-?
Its all about extending the life of what we have, and having a play with some new technology at the same time :lol:
Besides, the future is probably Minimig2 rather than u know who :-D
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gdanko wrote:
Maybe I am stupid or maybe I am some sort of infidel, but I do not see the point of the MiniMig. This unit emulates a 7 MHz A500 for > $200 USD? Why bother buying this thing when you can get a real A500 for about $25 USD?
How long will your A500 last, however? MiniMig is brand new. That $25 A500 has had how many owners? How did they treat it? Can you fix it if things go wrong? MiniMig means new hardware, and fixable hardware at that.
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Minimig uses PS/2 mice and keyboards, and a VGA monitor, which a real A500 doesn't. It also uses flash memory for mass storage, which is faster, quieter and more reliable than floppy disks.
Real A500s haven't been made for a long time, and when the last one breaks, they're gone for good. Minimig solves that problem.
Minimig is open source, and can/will be improved to the level of an A1200/CD32, or even way beyond.
But the real point of the minimig is that Dennis wanted to do it, and anyone who didn't see the point couldn't stop him.
________
BUY VAPORIZERS (http://vaporshop.com)
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Wow, I've never seen so many new posts in the time it took me to write that :lol:
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It just happened again :-o
This must be peak time on A.Org :crazy:
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Wow a lot of you seem pretty defensive of this device. It was a simple question!
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All he other posters have been spot on.... But I'm reminded of the famous reply to the "Why climb a mountain" question.... "Because it's there". Some things just have a "Cool Factor" that outweigh practicality. ;-) Minimig is one of those things.
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But, most important.. did you gen an answer to your question?
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A MiniMig would be "cool" if you could tune the CPU from 7.16 MHz to 060/50 and beyond. Or if it was socketed to allow upto G4 speeds.
But I would rather use a TV or 1084 and a trusty old A500 than to drop $200 on a board with some chips on it.
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gdanko wrote:
A MiniMig would be "cool" if you could tune the CPU from 7.16 MHz to 060/50 and beyond. Or if it was socketed to allow upto G4 speeds.
But I would rather use a TV or 1084 and a trusty old A500 than to drop $200 on a board with some chips on it.
I think you missed the point. A minimig A500 clone needed to be built, used & improved upon BEFORE you can have those things you wish for. As I said above, it takes baby steps. You have your fancy multi-gig Intel computers today because someone developed the 8088 XT PC back in 1980.
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skurk wrote:
- Brand new hardware, will last longer
ral-clan wrote:
When all the original A500s are gone
Homer wrote:
And what happens when the A500's have all gone :-?
downix wrote:
How long will your A500 last, however?
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Apart from the floppy disk drive, the A500 and A600's (with the exception of the A500+) are like concrete. They will last for many, many years. Considering the MiniMig's are being home made, probably to a much lower quality standard to the factory built Amiga's the physical hardware may not last that long.
MiniMig was created for fun, and should be treated like that. If you start rationalising it, MiniMig cannot compete on price, expandability or compatibility.
Form factor is it's one true "Amiga" plus point.
Other plus points are that it is a reconfigurable computer. It can be reconfigured as an Amstrad 464, a Sinclair Spectrum, a C64 or even an Atari ST etc.
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alexh wrote:
Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Apart from the floppy disk drive, the A500 and A600's (with the exception of the A500+) are like concrete. They will last for many, many years. Considering the MiniMig's are being home made, probably to a much lower quality standard to the factory built Amiga's the physical hardware may not last that long.
And if the MiniMig breaks, you can make another, and another, and another....
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I think all my a500 is starting to show signs of aging.. Main problem is the floppy disk drives. One of the floppy drives seems to be a bit out of alignment, since no other amiga can read the disk written by that drive. 2 other floppy drives have problems with the instert disk button/pin.. Sometimes it might suddenly act like you ejected the disk for a second, even though you never did.
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Sorry, but I have to disagree with you. Apart from the floppy disk drive, the A500 and A600's (with the exception of the A500+) are like concrete. They will last for many, many years.
Yes.. but how much longer? I have already heard of plenty amigas dying in storage mainly due to caps drying out or similar. I doubt there will be that many working systems left in lets say 20 years from now.
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The Minimig is essentially our chance to do what amiga and ack so far has failed to do, hardware.
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And if the MiniMig breaks, you can make another, and another, and another....
The chances of all four of my A500s dying are very slim. I paid probably 50USD for all of them.
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mike- wrote:
The Minimig is essentially our chance to do what amiga and ack so far has failed to do, hardware.
And this is great, if it can be a more expandable system.
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Yeah, that's the big issue for me. The open source nature of the MiniMig finally puts the Amiga's hardware development future in the hands of the user community.
The MiniMig is open source through reverse engineering, the original A500 is not unfortunately. So even if someone online got the original production plans for the Commodore A500/A1200/A2000/A4000 etc., no-one would be allowed to do more runs of the hardware, or build on it, due to copyright.
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downix wrote:
And if the MiniMig breaks, you can make another, and another, and another....
1) Good luck finding some of the MiniMig parts in as little as 6 months or so. Several parts on the 1.x board are already no longer made. (Admittedly you could redesign another which used different components)
2) You could get almost any problem with an A500 fixed for less ;-)
I think MiniMig is cool, and if the price comes down, or the PCB features go up, I'll nab one.
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Minimig shows actually a new insight: open source computers. Cheap-ass integrated circuits which are easily programmable, makes it a lot easier to design computers yourself.
Ahhh, a future, of open-source machines, with open source OS wich neatly makes advantage of the hardware, in harmony so to say...
tis a good thought :-)
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The money you save by being able to use off the shelf, VGA monitors (50z of course), Keyboards, and mouse, and no scan doubler makes it worth while.
A flicker fixer alone costs $175. Having Amber exexuted in an FPGA is a big deal as any future versions will have this functionality.
Scart to Component adapter alone is $60 usd.
The costs add up when you try to use that $25 A500 with modern ameneties we all enjoy.
Cable costs alone get ridiculous as you can only get them on ebay. Yet people thow away PS2 peripherals and VGA cables.
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Crom00 wrote:
*cut* and VGA cables.
not with todays copper prices. hell, vga cables are expensive
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Crom00 wrote:
The money you save by being able to use off the shelf, VGA monitors (50z of course), Keyboards, and mouse, and no scan doubler makes it worth while.
You're fooling yourself.
A flicker fixer alone costs $175.
You can get external ones for as little as $60 from Roy.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32365
RGB SCART cables for LCDTV's or Plasma's can be bought for as little as $1.98, I know I just bought 50 ;-)
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Alexh has a point I have understood from the beggining. ATM the minimig is a nice project for enthusiasts. To become really an option it has to be mass-produced to reduce the price, like the direct-c64 thing. Only then the advantages will outweight the cost. That is why insist it is important to simplify the design by "inserting" the cpu in a xcs3500e spartan fpga and removing the pic by using the SPI functionality to load directly from the SD/MMC stick.
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ral-clan wrote:
a clone A4000 then a new MiniMig 060/PPC with PCI slots, USB, etc. etc. etc.
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moto
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I did my version of the Minimig just for the fun of it (I have a fully working A500+ with all options on it but hardly use it due to lack on easy access to software/games) and also to be albe to use ADF-files directly. The possibility to use standard PS2 keyboard and mouse adds to it, VGA too (I added S-video and Composite too in my alternated design).
And finally - there are two things more: Nostalgia and "Because We Can..." ;-)
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Just to reitterate what so many people have already posted, my main reasons are:
ADF files: I finally loaded WHDload onto one of my Amigas last month and I'm in the process of reinstalling my original games. It's disappointing to discover just how many of them no longer work due to age. Unfortunately, you can't even use most ADFs with WHDload because they're cracked. I'm looking forward to an "Amiga" I can use for games which uses reliable ADF images and not having to dig out that old Zool code wheel to unlock the game.
VGA output: Perfect for connecting to my big screen TV for better picture quality.
PS2 mice: My Amiga mice are on their last legs and it will be great to be able to find a replacement by simply waling into Walmart.
PS2 Keybioards: Thankfully my Amiga keyboards have developed a fault, but if they do fail the cost and time to obtain a replacement is a pain in the butt.
Why not WinUAE? Surely I could do this with WinUAE? I've tried, but to use real "atari" type digital joysticks means extra hardware and the "feel" is just not right.
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Some people just like to tinker with things. Amiga users seem more likely than your average computer user. It's a way to learn about computers, how they work, how to make them, how to improve on them, etc. Can you add AGA to your A500, PPC CPUs, built-in flickerfixers, more memory, modern DDR memory, PCI slots, AGP slots, PCI-Express slots, or shove it into a PowerPC system as an addon such as into SAM440's FPGA? Check out www.opencores.org for more possibilities to add in there... Maybe add an OpenGraphics core as well. Smaller system size could allow something like the C64DTV to happen.
Minimig is the first step in being able to do all kinds of things that can't be done with an A500. It allows a huge number of things to become possible, which are far less convenient to do with an actual A500, if possible at all. It can become more than an A500, in time it can become an A1200, an A4000, an A5000, or who knows what will be imagined into larger capacity/pins FPGAs and different form factors.
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gdanko wrote:
And if the MiniMig breaks, you can make another, and another, and another....
The chances of all four of my A500s dying are very slim. I paid probably 50USD for all of them.
All four? Better update your sig then. :-P
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Not because we must, but because we can :-D
Plus its an ace little Open Sourece system to tinker with and perhaps expand beyond the OCS/ECS chipset with things that people wouldn't have bothered with back then. Triangle rasterising comes to mind. :lol:
Andy
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@gdanko
The chances of all four of my A500s dying are very slim. I paid probably 50USD for all of them.
Have you checked the batteries lately?
Here's my A500 as it looked a few weeks ago, notice the corrosion on the legs of the nearby chips and resistors.
It's now had the battery removed and been cleaned up and will be having a coin cell type battery fitted instead.
It turns out that coin cell holder from a dead PC is a drop in replacement. I just hope no lasting damage was done, as it had started playing up a bit.
(http://img229.imageshack.us/img229/8712/cimg0553iq4.jpg)
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I think the point is that HDL (vhdl/verilog) files don't break. While physical hardware will.
Some components may be obsoleted, but you can easily find a functional replacement. Try to find a factory made Agnus chip....
All your own Amiga hardware, AND the ones you buy from will have their hardware malfunctioning eventually. The longer time goes the less hardware there is to use as "originals" to model re-implemented HDL driven clones around.
(mains transient, thunderstorms, soda spills, cracks from fall, faulty connection, ESD, thermal cracks, shorts, moisture induced rust, leaky batteries)
Anyone had a dryied out capacitors within the powersupply fry their equipment on startup from not being used for a long time..?
A nice portable DVD player hack would be to replace the mainboard with a Minimig. So one could play anywhere.. :-D
And Amiga hardware is also quite efficient.. (MS-Pocket PC proberbly ain't..)
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The point of the Minimig is:
"Never give up, never surrender!"
:lol:
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Rob wrote:
@gdanko
The chances of all four of my A500s dying are very slim. I paid probably 50USD for all of them.
Have you checked the batteries lately?
:-?
Maybe the A500+ has a battery standard in it, but a plain A500 not AFAIK :-?
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Tomas wrote:
I think all my a500 is starting to show signs of aging.. Main problem is the floppy disk drives. One of the floppy drives seems to be a bit out of alignment, since no other amiga can read the disk written by that drive. 2 other floppy drives have problems with the instert disk button/pin.. Sometimes it might suddenly act like you ejected the disk for a second, even though you never did.
New AMIGA diskdrives are cheap :-)
www.vesalia.de
I just had a big hardware order from them :-D
Diskdrives for A500/600/1200/1200T/2000/3000/4000 are available.
About dying caps.. They can be replaced, but som of them have to be exchanged with new ones BEFORE they burn something bad..
They also sell NEW CD32, NTSC version :-)
They also sell new chips/IC's for our amiga's.
I think MiniMig is cool, I would sergently want to buy one.
And my oppinion is, Because it can be done, we need our hobby like others need theirs :-D
Again.. I apologise for my bad grammar :roll:
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Rob wrote:
Here's my A500 as it looked a few weeks ago
Get it right ;-) That is what your A500 PLUS looked like. Regular A500's, which make up perhaps 8/10 of them, dont have that battery. Check back in the thread and I did exclude the A500+ in my post.
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@Speelgoedmannetje & Alexh
Thanks for pointing out the omission. I guess it would be quite annoying to dismantle your A500, only to find there's no battery.
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Whats the point of the MiniMig?
If i'm being honest I don't really have a clue, who wants an A500 at the end of the day? Yes its useful for running games and legacy applications but there are an abundance of A500's for this task allready available plus of course there is UAE, WinUAE, E-UAE, WinFellow, MaxUAE etc etc etc
In my opinion what I would find more useful is a MiniMig clone/revision that would have say an 060 and possibly intergrated graphics that were supported in AmigaOS by the RTG system, this would be a good machine for the interlude between classic and "modern" hardware in my opinion and would at least provide new purchaseable hardware that was not from ebay that is likely to break in the future.
Thats my dream, the reality is, that it will never happen. :-D So, for now I can just sit and wait and dream (Oh and play with far superior operating systems such as OSX :-P) Hehe, Joking of course! :lol: :-o
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Come on guys, there is no negative reason for the MiniMig existing ! Thanks to Dennis, we have a feasible future for dying hardware, and a possible future for expansion :-o
Where is the negative in this :-?
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@Homer:
I understand that its great that its new hardware, I really do.
However its the fact that its so useless to me and many others, I personally don't need an A500, such a low powered machine, that is I suppose the only negative, the positives are that its a free open source amiga design that can be expanded on etc in the future.
I do honestly *like* the MiniMig project, I just don't think its useful for people like me at the moment! (People who would like to play around with AmigaOS on REAL fairly powerful hardware)
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mike- wrote:
The Minimig is essentially our chance to do what amiga and ack so far has failed to do, hardware.
I must agree with Mike: The single most important reason, in my mind (other than all the other "duh" reasons already given). Also closely followed by another: Dennis wanted to do it, and just because he could, he did. Congrats to Dennis and his brilliant skillz! I'm very happy to know that one part of the future of the Amiga is in a TRUE AMIGAN'S hands, finally!
Oh, and one little comment for the impatient people ("not useful since it's so weak", or "I'd rather have a 10Ghz Amiga with all the bells and whistles"):
Clue #1: Dennis ain't making it just so you'll have your NeXT-GEN Amiga. Look to Amiga Inc. (hard laughter) for that. He's doing it for fun and for himself primarily, not you. Stop thinking of yourselves.
Clue #2: without crawling, you won't have walking, so either shut your whining (to put it mildly) and/or help Dennis and the other folks out so that your 10GHz Amiga comes sooner rather than later! And remember: you've waited since 1993-4 until 1997-8 for a more powerful Amiga (PPC), so why don't you give these guys the same amount of time and then come back and look at MiniMig. You might just be surprised!
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Also, what came first, the Black and white TV or Color ?
You have to admit, it was not until Dennis brought out 1.0 (and then 1.1) that people then jumped on and one day, you will have better versions, but all it needed was ONE person to kick it off.
From this, there WILL be more versions. Its a shame that it has taken the fanbase to inspire new hardware, instead of Pathetic companies like A.inc just sitting around trying to find more people to sue (Scientologists ?).
WHY an amiga 500 to start ?, because there is very little documentation of the hardware out there, and what there is, it is of an Amiga 500, from this you can build. How can you build a house without foundations ?
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The truth is, Dennis made Minimig mainly to show himself that he can do it. He didn't think at that time if it's going to cost more than an A500 or if it's going to make any economical sense. It was an opportunity for him to achieve something that nobody ever did. And he did it. Thoughts like, what next, what to do with it now, came later. He decided to open source it to let the community get the most of it. Being open source, it can be enhanced by others or simply produced. It can fork in many directions. It was at no point created to let anybody get a cheaper A500, it was a hobby project all the way. And it's great that even when it costs more than an A500, there are quite a lot of reasons (already pointed out in this thread) to want it.
Minimig is just cool!
Thanks Dennis!
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Currently the Minimig is not expandable in ways that a 500 was, no CPU update, no RAM expansion, no Hard Drive, etc.
Right now it is just a cool way to play those old demos and games on the TV, which I respect, but there is NO WAY I can afford to lay down $200 for a game system with limited RAM and limited CPU.
For now I'll place my faith in AROS, E-UAE, MorphOS, and perhaps Amiga inc themselves.
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My opinion is that the MiniMig is a fantastic achievment by Denis and he has my utmost respect. However, as it stands, it really is of no interest to me. Yes, it is hardware but it is essentially hardware _emulating_ hardware (save for the 68000 chip). It would feel no different than using WinUAE in that sense.
However, this project has fantastic potential. Add PPC/060/PCI slots/memory upgrade/enhanced-turocharged-custom-chip-features/etc and it could get interesting. I guess the sky is the limit, which is a nice thought when you are talking about anything Amiga-based. ;-)
oh, and the greatest thing about this whole project is that it doesn't have some parasitic self-serving "corporation" behind it. its destiny is truely "in our hands" thanks to Dennis. Nobody has the right to complain about it, the foundations are there and if any of us want to make it better we are free to do so.
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gdanko wrote:
Maybe I am stupid or maybe I am some sort of infidel, but I do not see the point of the MiniMig. This unit emulates a 7 MHz A500 for > $200 USD? Why bother buying this thing when you can get a real A500 for about $25 USD?
I say we string the infidel up by the b@!!$ and then burn him alive! :lol: :lol: :lol:
I had to read backward through three pages of messages to find out just who this infidel could be. Blasphemy from such a good Amiga acolyte too! :lol: :lol: :lol:
Lots of good points made, and "Yes" it does not make sense to buy a Minimig for $200 instead of getting a good used A500, or A1000, but that is definitely not what the Minimig was created to do. I wanted one just because it is Amiga history in the making and as far as I am concerned it is a must have for any respectable Amiga collection. In fact, I was elated to find that my Minimig PCB had arrived when I returned home this evening (thank you very much Nusim).
The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS! Then we won't have to worry anymore about Amiga Inc., Hyperion, ACK, and all the rest that have let us down year after year after year.
It really is incredible to me that one person has done what no group or company has been able to do in over 10 years. What do I mean??? Not just produce a piece of hardware design, but Dennis has inspired so many Amiga users and fans to have a positive outlook toward the future. Dennis has inspired many to actually take actions of their own to improve his design and dozens are actively discussing further improvements.
What is the point of the Minimig? It has many, and I am so grateful to Dennis for putting forth his talents and the considerable effort to make this inspiration possible. :cheers: :bow:
Really, gdanko, considering the recent events with AI vs Hyperion you must admit that many members here have gone from this :horse: to this :banana: when they are talking about the future of Amiga hardware development.
Yes, it will take a very long time and the outcome is unforseen at this time, but hope has been renewed for some and at least for me, it is more fun to be an Amiga enthusiast today than it was several months ago.
More than my 2 cents,
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Homer wrote:
Come on guys, there is no negative reason for the MiniMig existing ! Thanks to Dennis, we have a feasible future for dying hardware, and a possible future for expansion :-o
Where is the negative in this :-?
Exactly my words!
I hope that i can buy an MiniMig one day :-)
68000 or 68060 does not matter, it's just an MUST HAVE thing.
The Minimig IS the foundation, those who don't like it, don't boy it and let others have it :-D
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Don't forget !
Building the Minimig is also fun.
Making your one Amiga gives a special feeling if you run it the first time, (And I know build 3 units already, more to come).
The Minimig is so nice and tiny and is't using much space !
I Love My Minimig BIGTIME (A500 setup takes to much space on my desk...)
The Scandoubler is amazing crystal clear output on my TFT.
Also new updates will come out!
I recived a e-mail from Dennis that he is rewriting the floppy controller for multiple .adf suport.
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Hi,
Minimig is cool ! It is such an amazing hobby project.
I'll make mine as soon as possible... (or as soon as my daughters give me free time :-D )
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wizard66 wrote:
....I recived a e-mail from Dennis that he is rewriting the floppy controller for multiple .adf suport.
That is great news! I was not sure Dennis would continue to work on the Minimig, thinking that he might instead move on to some other unrelated project of interest to him.
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Why do people climb mountains.....
Why do you go the long way round....
IMHO the Minimig....is major step.....a breakthough that can mean a computer built around a Emulated in hardware Core...
Yet....The minimig beyond that...na.....A Over priced Amiga it is !.....worth the money....nope.....but nice to say I was there....
Someone said that once all the amiga 500s are gone...what now....my friend there are literally hundreds if not 10,000's of Amiga 500's sitting in peoples cupboards. They are not rare or failing by the sack load. If you want to buy a minimig to be a part of the scene, the tek and the soul of something new and different, thats one thing...if you want an a500 buy one.....someone said $25 was about right....you were robbed.....The last two I paid for were less that $5......both working (I have 3)...
Lets face it Dennis's work is brillant....but at that BOM cost, your building it!, just because its there......
Shaz
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There are some possibilities with the Minimig. That may actually make it more sought after.
It's likely possible without any hardware modifications to run Atari ST, Macintosh 68k, Sega, Early x86, Proberbly most 8-bits. With some fpga tricks even early Sun, SGI, NexT aswell.
Then there's the possibility to do demos coded directly in HDL (like vhdl) and really exploit the fpga power. Or even use the fpga capability to interface with other electronics as logic analyzer etc..
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@gdanko
Quote:
What's the point of the MiniMig?
Whats the Point of a Sony PSP when there is a PlayStation?
this should answer the question.
I would be extremely exstatic about a handheld Amiga. This is the beginnings of an Amiga PDA.
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This is the end.
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Minimig is cool. But just like WinUAE its just not the real thing :)
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leirbag28 wrote:
I would be extremely exstatic about a handheld Amiga. This is the beginnings of an Amiga PDA.
Maybe someone is crazy enough to put it in a dead Atari Lynx (with still working buttons, speakers and screen) :lol:
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1) Good luck finding some of the MiniMig parts in as little as 6 months or so. Several parts on the 1.x board are already no longer made. (Admittedly you could redesign another which used different components)
You've completely missed the point. The MiniMig is Verilog, it's completely future proof. Xilinx may die tomorrow, the industry may suddenly decide that FPGAs in general suck and stop making them and the hardware description in HDL will still be there, you'll be able to use whatever technology exists at the time to implement it. Heck, no 68000 processors? No problem, IP Core.
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amigadave wrote:
The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS!
That's my dream for Amiga's future as well, and a perfect way to continue Amiga's legacy. Think about how many of the greatest achievements of the Amiga have come from the community surrounding it rather than the hardware owners (the ones controlling the purse strings, not the engineers). Considering all that the Amiga community has been through it seems fitting that the hardware should belong to us, and thanks to Dennis' great work we have brilliant opportunities ahead of us.
The price is high right now, but think of the possibilities if we make the time to develop the Minimig. Amiga laptop anyone (easily done with the current version)?
Also, given some extra development we could have a device like the C64DTV (big inspiration behind the Minimig). Okay, so it's not likely to cost less than £30 like the C64DTV due to economies of scale, but an important step towards this new device has already been made (TobiFlex incorporating the 68k core into a Minimig FPGA). Given enough development time I predict it would be possible to have a Minimig in a joystick within a few years that costs around £50-£70. If the memory card feature was kept it could be acceptable VFM, as the FPGA core could be made to emulate other hardware as well. Having said all that, I think Clone-A would be a better solution for this. Watch this vid (skip to 40min mark for current Clone-A plans):
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=7945941150233337270
The dream Minimig (for many) would be one that could emulate all Amiga hardware and was linked to a fast CPU (used to run OS4, for example) but as others have said we need to walk before we can run.
freqmax wrote:
Then there's the possibility to do demos coded directly in HDL (like vhdl) and really exploit the fpga power. Or even use the fpga capability to interface with other electronics as logic analyzer etc..
This is an exciting possibility. I wished Commodore had followed through with its plans for incorporating DSPs into Amigas (like the A3000+), who knows what great uses developers would have found for them. FPGAs are one step up from DSPs as they are programmable, so the possibilities are even greater.
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I did forget to emphasise how utterly awsome and tempting it is! I just can't afford that pleasure atm. But as I say, maybe a few advancements like more ADF's, yes that is good, and I did forget the free Scandoubler...
...definatly something that will get better in time, even if the CPU and RAM never expand, it is cool as heck, and better than emulation...
...but you know, if it was expandable now, I'd be finding ways to make money for one! :)
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The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS! Then we won't have to worry anymore about Amiga Inc., Hyperion, ACK, and all the rest that have let us down year after year after year.
Open Source Amiga-compatible OS? Think we already have that (http://www.aros.org). It just needs more Developers.
Dammy
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In response to the original post with blatant disregard to any off topic conversations, the point of the minimig is to bring the Amiga back. I'm a musician so I'll use terms I know...
If tubes weren't popular, would obsolete technology still be used in amps today?
If the ElectroHarmonix Big Muff Pi distortion pedal didn't make the signature tone for bands like Cream, would it still be produced using modern technology as a surrogate for the warmest fuzz obtainable without tubes?
Back to computers - if Pac-Man were unpopular, would I be able to go to GameWorks and pump $15+ into it at least twice a month?
A big steaming NO.
It may be a niche market, but it's a market nonetheless, and soon there will be no more Amigas available for purchase.
What I'm trying to get at is this;
It's the Amiga.
Never give up, never surrender.
I close with a quote from a Metallica song;
"Show's through, metal's gone, it's time to hit the road.
Another town, another gig, again we will explode.
Hotel rooms and motorways, life out here is raw,
We'll never stop, we'll never quit, 'cause we're Metallica."
-Whiplash, Kill 'em all.
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sorry for dp
AJCopland wrote:
Not because we must, but because we can :-D
I believe we must.
I just turned 19 yesterday, but I was just 14 when I found the Amiga. First production model, the A1000's. This beast of a machine, ungainly and weathered with age, got me through some of the roughest patches of my life. I knew that when I found it, it was something different, something old but new, something... something with substance. Only now do I realize the sheer magnitude of like-minded human beings with the same passion and dedication to the Amiga as I have.
Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.
I don't think it was my dad's plan to have me find it. I honestly think he forgot about it years ago, along with the Intellivision 2 and the Commodore VIC-20, both of which I still have.
If anything, the Amiga has given me a firm respect of old computing technology, and has made me a better person in the process. Kids today (weird hearing myself say that!) have it easy. Windoze, Mac, and all this other stuff, the dirty work has been done for them, and they have nothing to have fun with except pointing and clicking. The Amiga has taught me that times were difficult in the past and that technology has never had it so good now. Before I was born, there was a radio jingle going on in Australia for the newest line of Commodores, and I believe it went "Are you keeping up with the Commodore? 'Cause the Commodore is keeping up with you!".
I can proudly say that I am keeping up with my Commodore.
The Amiga, in my case, led me to meet new friends, have a bonding moment with my dad, turned me on to all sorts of interesting things (like the Public Domain), and, most importantly, turned other people on to the Amiga. The Minimig will be a turning point in computing evolution, where new meets old, form meets function, and people wake up. I guess you could say that the miggy has brought me to a higher sense of being and purpose, almost nirvana. It gave me such an overpowering sense of awareness that it brought me to tears on several occasions. The Minimig will be the corporate OS market's worst nightmare, and the Open Source community's dream come true. Open source hardware coupled with open source software, it's a magnificent concept. Linux provided the pathway, and the "use, build upon, and give back to" mentality has lifted the Amiga to new heights.
It is true that Amiga went bankrupt and key developers have passed on, but the fact of the matter is that the Amiga is a fighting, fierce force in the computer universe that will not be silenced. I mean, come on! The last Amiga was produced around 1997, I think, and it's making a comeback.If I knew then what I know now I would have gladly killed for one of those. I'm still a kid, but good Lord, this machine has matured me to no end...
In short, Minimig = good for business.
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AmiGR wrote:
You've completely missed the point. The MiniMig is Verilog, it's completely future proof.
And you've completely missed the point. You are correct, should you want a MiniMig board in the future you could design / build a new one with the components of the time.
The point was that for what it would cost you to do that you could fix any fault on an A500 motherboard and with the change buy a small villa in central europe ;)
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downix wrote:
And if the MiniMig breaks, you can make another, and another, and another....
If you can solder. ;-)
Little OT: Though out of interest (and this is directed to those people who have actually built/used a Minimig) what does the Minimig actually 'feel' like when using it?
I ask because some people say the reason they prefer not to use emulation (WinUAE etc.) is because you just dont get the same feel as you do a real Amiga.
So that's what I want to know: does the Minimig feel like the real-deal A500, or does it just feel like another emulator?
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I would imagine it feels more like a real Amiga (if you've never seen WinUAE at 50Hz full screen 720x576) than an emulator up to the point where a bug corrupts the demo screen.
I dont think bugs will last long if MiniMig boards go into production and prices come down because more technically minded users will help squash then.
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dammy wrote:
The Minimig is an important first step toward what will hopefully become the greatest chapter of Amiga history - Open Source Amiga Hardware AND (I hope eventually will lead to an) Open Source Amiga-compatible OS! Then we won't have to worry anymore about Amiga Inc., Hyperion, ACK, and all the rest that have let us down year after year after year.
Open Source Amiga-compatible OS? Think we already have that (http://www.aros.org). It just needs more Developers.
Dammy
I can't speak for amigadave Dammy, but I was certainly thinking of a Minimig + AROS future.
You raise a good point. The one factor that has held AROS back is lack of developers. It's currently looking impressive now, but just imagine what it would be like if it had strong support from the beginning.
If all these dreams for Minimig are going to come true, we have to realize that WE are the developers. I intend to start learning Verilog (there are loads of great resources for this on the Internet), so that I can make a contribution to Minimig one day. Who else is doing the same?
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And you've completely missed the point. You are correct, should you want a MiniMig board in the future you could design / build a new one with the components of the time.
The point was that for what it would cost you to do that you could fix any fault on an A500 motherboard and with the change buy a small villa in central europe ;)
What are you going on about? There's nothing on the MiniMig that is expensive. The reason they go for $200 is the fact that they're built in single units. You could use a larger FPGA and put most of the peripheral hardware onto that, have it on a BGA package on a tiny PCB and it would cost next to nothing.
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AmiGR wrote:
What are you going on about? There's nothing on the MiniMig that is expensive. The reason they go for $200 is the fact that they're built in single units. You could use a larger FPGA and put most of the peripheral hardware onto that, have it on a BGA package on a tiny PCB and it would cost next to nothing.
As far as I can see the most expensive parts of the Minimig are the FPGA, 68k processor and RAM. Would it be possible to build the RAM into an FPGA?
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The FPGA hardly expensive in terms of the total price of the MiniMig. The XC3S400-4PQG208C costs £13 in single unit quantities. The 68SEC000 is £7 and could be replaced with a larger FPGA and an IP core. Dunno about the RAM, the SRAM used is the easy option, I'm sure it could be re-implemented with some dirt-cheap DRAM.
Generally, there are many things that can be done to get the price down but many of them rely on larger quantities.
On another note, has anyone got an XC3S400-4PQG208C or plans to order some? If yes, please let me know, I'll be eternally grateful! :-)
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AmiGR wrote:
The FPGA hardly expensive in terms of the total price of the MiniMig. The XC3S400-4PQG208C costs £13 in single unit quantities. The 68SEC000 is £7 and could be replaced with a larger FPGA and an IP core. Dunno about the RAM, the SRAM used is the easy option, I'm sure it could be re-implemented with some dirt-cheap DRAM.
Generally, there are many things that can be done to get the price down but many of them rely on larger quantities.
On another note, has anyone got an XC3S400-4PQG208C or plans to order some? If yes, please let me know, I'll be eternally grateful! :-)
The 68K processor has already implemented in a FPGA core alongside the Minimig code (see TobiFlex's work), so the biggest barrier to reducing price seems to be the RAM. Would using DRAM rather than SRAM really reduce prices by a significant amount?
If you are looking for a seller of the Xilinx XC3S400-4PQG208C within the UK, a quick websearch came up with this result:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/157.html
At the time of writing this they have thousands in stock:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/scripts/availability.pl?partID=XC3S400-4PQG208C
I've never used this particular supplier before so I couldn't vouch for their reliability. Why not send them an e-mail for a quote.
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The 68K processor has already implemented in a FPGA core alongside the Minimig code (see TobiFlex's work), so the biggest barrier to reducing price seems to be the RAM. Would using DRAM rather than SRAM really reduce prices by a significant amount?
Wow, I'll take a look at TobiFlex's work, I was planning on putting a 68k core on the FPGA myself. About the RAM, well, SRAM is generally expensive. If we implement a DRAM controller on the FPGA and getting the timings right, 2MB of EDO DRAM is £2.50-3 in single quantities, at least £2 cheaper than SRAM.
If you are looking for a seller of the Xilinx XC3S400-4PQG208C within the UK, a quick websearch came up with this result:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/157.html
At the time of writing this they have thousands in stock:
http://www.ashlea.co.uk/scripts/availability.pl?partID=XC3S400-4PQG208C
I've never used this particular supplier before so I couldn't vouch for their reliability. Why not send them an e-mail for a quote.
Oh, cool. It seems I'll have to go through University to use them, though, they do not appear to be selling to individuals.
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i dont see the point of beeing expensive
i bough t the a500 in 1987 for around 1400 dmark(yes germany)
if u calculate it it should be around 700 euro
so 300euro for a new (amiga) is rather cheap i think
and it has the nice sdcard in it ..
and i played with wizard66 the game bubble bobble in 2 player mode and it feels like the real thing
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AmiGR wrote:
Wow, I'll take a look at TobiFlex's work, I was planning on putting a 68k core on the FPGA myself. About the RAM, well, SRAM is generally expensive. If we implement a DRAM controller on the FPGA and getting the timings right, 2MB of EDO DRAM is £2.50-3 in single quantities, at least £2 cheaper than SRAM.
Well, that's certainly worth doing then (changing to DRAM). Anything we can do to make the Minimig cheaper is worth considering, are there any other areas we could make savings (such as incorporating the PIC functions into the FPGA)?
AmiGR wrote:
Oh, cool. It seems I'll have to go through University to use them, though, they do not appear to be selling to individuals.
If you do find out what price you can get through your University, can you let us know just in case there are interested parties looking to purchase the chip. I've just e-mailed Ashlea Components to see if they will sell to individuals and if I get a response I'll do the same. I tried to find the specific Xilinx FPGA through RS Components, Maplin and Rapid, no dice. Are there any other UK electronics suppliers we could try?
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AmiGR wrote:
What are you going on about? There's nothing on the MiniMig that is expensive. The reason they go for $200 is the fact that they're built in single units.
Yes you are correct. That and they are being made by homebrew amateurs and not on mass so there are no discounts on quantities. But that isnt going to change any time soon. So if you were making one in the future (following on from our previous msgs) you'd be doing it in.. *da da* single units.
You could use a larger FPGA and put most of the peripheral hardware onto that, have it on a BGA package on a tiny PCB and it would cost next to nothing.
A phrase rhyming with "duck cough" comes to mind.
You dont know anything about BOM prices, availability or PCB design, so using phrases like "next to nothing" is just insulting to those who have been trying so hard to bring MiniMig to the masses. If what you said was true, everyone would be doing it, they are not, so you are WRONG!
The main reason no-one has used a BGA chip is because they are impossible to solder without expensive BGA IR flow equipment that no "homebrew" team will ever have.
Before you start cost reducing something that doesnt need cost reducing and redesigning a PCB (something almost certainly beyond your capability) lets try to get some of the MiniMig v1.1 boards made en mass and price savings that way!
If we could find a company/individual ready to stump up the time to talk to the manufacturer and the £2000 deposit required to get a batch of 200+ units made we could reduce the costs to the end customer. The profits from this could be invested to make more boards and future cost downs.
Walk before we run.
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You dont know anything about BOM prices or PCB design, so using phrases like "next to nothing" is just insulting to those who have been trying so hard to bring MiniMig to the masses.
Lets see, I have sourced, ordered and paid for all the components on the MiniMig and am well aware of the unit costs. I was not for one second trying to say that everybody else is doing anything wrong, I was and am talking about a mass produced simplified design, as a reason for which the MiniMig is not a waste of time.
If what you said was true, everyone would be doing it, they are not, so you are WRONG!
This is a young project and people are heading towards the direction of reducing the component count of the board, as another person has already mentioned, someone has already put the 68k into the FPGA as an IP core. The thing is, you probably know as well as I do that what would cost "next to nothing" in mass production would cost the earth or be practically impossible for the numbers we're talking about or, even worse, hand-soldered single units. So, I am not exactly disagreeing with you here, I just do not believe that the fact that the MiniMig is currently made in single units and is expensive means that it's useless or that repairing A500 boards is a better idea.
The main reason no-one has used a BGA chip is because they are impossible to solder without expensive BGA IR flow equipment that no "homebrew" team will ever have.
Yes, but I was talking about a cheaper, smaller and simpler version. You aren't exactly going to order 200 boards and parts and hand solder them, are you? Obviously, you wouldn't wanna use BGA even for 200, but my point was, there is nothing on the MiniMig that is prohibitively expensive and the design has potential for significant cost saving for, say, an Amiga-in-a-Joystick.
Anyway, the reason I mentioned BGA was not because I had a brainfart and wanted to throw a buzzword. I'm well aware that it would require a more complex PCB. The reason I mentioned BGA was that all 1M-gate Spartan 3 chips are BGA. The thing is, as more hardware would be integrated on the FPGA, the larger number of I/O pins wouldn't really be needed. The ideal candidate for something like that in the Spartan series would be a 3E, which is biased towards more logic on package versus I/O pins but the largest 3E is 500K gates, which I think is not enough for a 68k IP core plus the MiniMig chipset. Depending on the number of pins available versus the number of pins used if the 68k and perhaps the controller gets moved onto the FPGA, you may not have to use a very significant number of BGA IO pins and get away with using a 2 layer board but I may well be very very wrong, I have not checked the Spartan 3 BGA pin-out to see what fan-outs could be used.
Before you start cost reducing something that doesnt need cost reducing and redesigning a PCB (something almost certainly beyond your capability)
And what makes you think that that's almost certainly beyond my capability? I have designed PCBs and the MiniMig PCB is not exactly the most complex design in the world. I probably would not be the right person to spearhead such an effort, I'm not that experienced with PCB design but again, I'm talking about possibilities, not how "I'd do it better".
lets try to get some of the MiniMig v1.1 boards made en mass and price savings that way!
I fail to see your point here. You were complaining about the fact that it's expensive and saying that you could fix A500s for less, right? I basically gave you reasons for which working on the MiniMig *is* a good idea and have been talking about the possibilities.
Again, my point is, mass production brings costs down but when mass producing, simplifying the design can bring some quite major savings.
If we could find a company/individual ready to stump up the time to talk to the manufacturer and the £2000 or so required to get a batch of 200+ units made we could reduce the costs to the end customer. The profits from this could be invested to make more boards and future cost downs.
That I agree on 100%.
Apologies if I sounded like a smart-ass.
Edit: Added a few things as I went along.
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Message for alexh and AmiGR.
Please both stop this willy measuring type of argument, is getting us nowhere.
Reducing the cost of the v1.1 Minimig is clearly worthwhile, I'll go into ways we could feasibily do this in a minute. However, take a look at the comments made on the subject of the Minimig you'll see that a lot of people are waiting for a more powerful and expandable Minimig. Therefore, considering the size of the Amiga market, v1.1 is not going to be hugely mass produced.
Now onto the ways we can reduce Minimig costs. These are:
1. Find the cheapest sources for components and buy in bulk with other Minimig builders.
2. Look at ways the design can be simplified so it requires less money to purchase the components (this would require a PCB redesign too).
3. Look into companies able to do runs of PCBs and supply parts in one kit, buy in bulk.
You may even be able to find companies willing to assemble short runs of Minimigs, which wouldn't necessarily reduce the cost but would open the Minimig market up to Amiga fans not ready to solder units themselves. I appreciate the work of people like wizard who are doing something about this.
How about those of us who go to University, does your University have electronics assembly equipment?
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AmiGR wrote:
alexh wrote:
lets try to get some of the MiniMig v1.1 boards made en mass and price savings that way!
I fail to see your point here. You were complaining about the fact that it's expensive and saying that you could fix A500s for less, right?
If MiniMig's got mass produced at a price competitive with old A500's, then my argument goes away dont you think?
The C64 joystick for example can be picked up everywhere for about £5 or less. I myself have several. The mods can be done to play games from flash very easy. I wouldnt recommend getting a old C64 (or getting one repaired) over a homebrew mod of a C64 joystick in this situation would I?
It is a shame that no-one has organised a "mass buy" on components and sold them on. Everyone is buying them in singles from digikey which isnt helping :(
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Message for alexh and AmiGR.
Please both stop this willy measuring type of argument, is getting us nowhere.
Yep, sorry, I fear that I started it by snapping at Alex. Sorry about that.
How about those of us who go to University, does your University have electronics assembly equipment?
Not much that would really be useful for this.
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If MiniMig's got mass produced at a price competitive with old A500's, then my argument goes away dont you think?
The C64 joystick for example can be picked up everywhere for about £5 or less. I myself have several. The mods can be done to play games from flash very easy. I wouldnt recommend getting a old C64 (or getting one repaired) over a homebrew mod of a C64 joystick in this situation would I?
Well, the thing is, it has the potential to become rather cheap, even though it currently isn't, that's my whole point. Really sorry I snapped at you, earlier, starting an argument. 100% my fault.
It is a shame that no-one has organised a "mass buy" on components and sold them on. Everyone is buying them in singles which isnt helping.
Yeah.
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One of the "points" of MiniMig doesnt seem to be getting exploited.
I am suprised that there has been no ports of other "opensource hardware" to a MiniMig board yet? Tobiflex's Amstrad CPC core (http://c64upgra.de/c-one/download/project_snapshot_tcpc_v50.zip) or Mike-C's VIC 20 (http://home.freeuk.com/fpgaarcade/vic20_main.htm) or Sinclair ZX Spectrum (http://zxgate.sourceforge.net/)
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AmiGR wrote:
Yep, sorry, I fear that I started it by snapping at Alex. Sorry about that.
Well I respect anyone who has the cohones to admit when they've done something wrong, so no worries.
alexh wrote:
I am suprised that there has been no ports of other "opensource hardware" to a MiniMig board yet?
It is a shame. How easy would it be to port one of those examples mentioned? I mean is the h/w they normally run on fairly similar?
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Oh they will, indeed doing things like that is one of the cores reasons why I like the idea of the MiniMig.
However thats at the "running" stage and I'm still waiting for parts so that I can get to the "walking" stage. I.e. a complete and functioning MiniMig v1.1
alexh wrote:
One of the "points" of MiniMig doesnt seem to be getting exploited.
I am suprised that there has been no ports of other "opensource hardware" to a MiniMig board yet? Tobiflex's Amstrad CPC core (http://c64upgra.de/c-one/download/project_snapshot_tcpc_v50.zip) or Mike-C's VIC 20 (http://home.freeuk.com/fpgaarcade/vic20_main.htm) or Sinclair ZX Spectrum (http://zxgate.sourceforge.net/)
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HenryCase wrote:
How easy would it be to port one of those examples mentioned?
It depends on what board it was intended for, what additional hardware it has, what clocks the design uses, if there is enough block RAM, how nice the I/O ports like keyboard etc. map to the MiniMig keyboard/floppy HDL.
I would imagine 10-20 mins to get something on screen. A couple of hours to get the keyboard working and "preload" BIOS ROM and snapshot data into the FPGA block RAMS and poking a start address.
Then maybe a couple of days for disk/tape emulation through the PIC, maybe less if you can wire up an old digitiser and pipe the Audio in through spare I/O.
Burrr Beeep. Burrrr, beep beep bur beep beep. (Me trying to phonetically type the sound of a Spectrum loader).
I've never researched Analog Tape but I imagine that there are several optimisations / cheats you can use when digitising that you couldnt get away with normally with normal audio.
I mean is the h/w they normally run on fairly similar?
Yup. All the standard I/O are there. Just Analog Audio in is missing.
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alexh wrote:
HenryCase wrote:
I mean is the h/w they normally run on fairly similar?
Yup. All the standard I/O are there. Just Analog Audio in is missing.
Couldn't you erm.. cheat in the same way that the MiniMig cheaps and simply pretend it was loading from tape just as MiniMig pretends its loading form disk using ADF files on the MMC card? The internals shouldn't care where the stream of binary data was coming from as long as it was getting that data in the format that it expected.
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For C64 there is *.tap files that are digitized casette tapes (C2N dassette).
Btw, as the FPGA sits like a gateway between cpu & memory. One should be able to implement MMU in a noncompatible way. And memory protection. Viola modified NetBSD will run :-D
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alexh wrote:
Then maybe a couple of days for disk/tape emulation through the PIC
Sh!t did I say that ;-)
AJCopland wrote:
The internals shouldn't care where the stream of binary data was coming from as long as it was getting that data in the format that it expected.
At the data rate it was expecting etc. which would be the research bit that takes a couple of days. But you'd implement SNA (memory snapshots) and emulate floppy disks first.
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alexh wrote:
At the data rate it was expecting etc. which would be the research bit that takes a couple of days. But you'd implement SNA (memory snapshots) and emulate floppy disks first.
Would it matter? I mean, I've used Spectrum emulators before that have tape 'snapshots' like the *.tap files for the C64 emulator mentioned by freqmax. The games loaded instantly. As long as all the data was loaded into the correct parts of RAM, I don't think you need to emulate the data rate too closely. Check this video out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKu9qreiI3E
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HenryCase wrote:
Would it matter?
Yes.
HenryCase wrote:
I mean, I've used Spectrum emulators before that have tape 'snapshots' like the *.tap files for the C64 emulator mentioned by freqmax.
Snapshots are MEMORY snapshots, not tape snapshots. Spectrum emulators do have compressed tape samples but they are called *.tap or *.tzx files.
The games loaded instantly.
That's cos they are memory snapshots. Dumps of memory after the game has loaded. The dumped data is just loaded back into RAM (which on an emulator would be almost instantaneously) and jumped into. Definitely the easiest thing to try first on an FPGA implementation.
As long as all the data was loaded into the correct parts of RAM, I don't think you need to emulate the data rate too closely.
Snapshot no, tap / tzx yes.
Check this video out:
If you notice he quadrouples the clock speed of the spectrum (3.5 - 14) and then quadrouples the playback speed of the audio sample thus keeping the timing 1:1.
Might be a coincidence but he doesnt demonstrate a game with a turbo loader.
Leads me to think that data rate is still important.
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alexh wrote:
If you notice he quadrouples the clock speed of the spectrum (3.5 - 14) and then quadrouples the playback speed of the audio sample thus keeping the timing 1:1.
Might be a coincidence but he doesnt demonstrate a game with a turbo loader.
Leads me to think that data rate is still important.
http://personal.auna.com/casariche/k7zx4/k7zx4.htm
How does this work ? and does it work with ZX hyperload schemes that were put onto cassette ?
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alexh wrote:
Check this video out:
If you notice he quadrouples the clock speed of the spectrum (3.5 - 14) and then quadrouples the playback speed of the audio sample thus keeping the timing 1:1.
Might be a coincidence but he doesnt demonstrate a game with a turbo loader.
Leads me to think that data rate is still important.
You're probably right that the acceleration of clock speed shown in that video needed to be a certain rate to match the tape speed. It shouldn't be too hard to get the basic timing right, and then the speed up the loading process in a similar way.
If a Spectrum emulator is on the cards, here are a couple of programs that may be useful:
http://www.worldofspectrum.org/taper.html
Can be used to see tape loading timings.
ftp://ftp.worldofspectrum.org/pub/sinclair/tools/amiga/SpecDisassemb20b.zip
Spectrum Disassembler for Amiga. Useful if there are any games that don't work.
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Alex's points about the possibility to run various retro systems is a good one. IT's just too early for that level of development as there are maybee what... 10 minimgs in existance? Moving along to get 10 units made and sold here on Amiga.org to get some level or tinkering done on the thing.
As to the low cost of Amiga keyboards, game controllers, etc. I've had a hard time as most parts show up on ebay and are pretty expensive esp. when buyng from UK. If I was in the UK I'd be in a better place as it seems there was a mass appeal for the Amiga.
On any weekend here in the us you can pickup PC mouse, keyboard, memory card for $3 usd. I can't do that with AMiga parts.
For the American Amiga user Scart (one of the great benefits of being a European Amigan) does not apply so we rely on scan doublers, 15.75 khz monitors, and 1084 monitors FOR RGB.
Also the fellow selling the CO-CO Amiga scan doubler does not have any AMiga units for sale. He's currently working out some issues with an Amiga version right now.
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What's the point?? Well it made me come out of hiding, it was more then 3 years ago since my last login on this site, but the whole Minimig appearance woke me up I guess :lol:
For me, it allows me to have NEW hardware instead of having to rely on 2-3-4th hand used hardware which DO start to fail. I'm following Minimig closely (and CloneA) because I still like the Amiga and it's concept, and yes there is WinUAE and Aros and the like.. but it's not an hands-on Amiga, Minimig is! Although it's not perfect (yet) it's closer to the feel of a real Amiga then anything else.
Dennis, thank you for making this possible! :-D