Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: tonyyeb on October 29, 2007, 02:18:52 PM
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Not sure how many other people watched that auction with interest but it finally sold for £214.
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Link?
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here it is (http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250177685711)
Funny... after all those companies failed to deliver new Amigas in all these years, the users finally decided to build them on their own....
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Considering the parts including import duties, postage etc. cost £180, and it took MANY hours to solder, I would consider this price quite disappointing.
If you charge £10/hour, it probably didn't cover costs :-(
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The seller has already put his second Minimig (http://cgi.ebay.nl/New-Amiga-Minimig-V1-1-complete-build_W0QQitemZ250181252068QQihZ015QQcategoryZ3543QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) on Ebay. I wonder how soon there will be more people selling these babies, and how many different incarnations there will be.
Thusfar I've seen Dennis' original Minimig, abovementioned ones on Ebay, the mini-ITX version from that Swedish guy (sorry, forgot your name :-)), plus I've seen the empty boards from Nusim, and 2 other people whom I don't remember the names from (one with the white PCB, and the one who initially also would do a 10-piece production run)...
So, it seems that at least 6 people have all delivered more in just 2 months as a single person, than AInc. has delivered in 7 years. Go figure! :-)
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alexh wrote:
Considering the parts including import duties, postage etc. cost £180, and it took MANY hours to solder, I would consider this price quite disappointing.
I think you read it wrong somewhere. Seller has previously stated that the total hardware costs were 180 Euros, not pounds, so I don't think the selling price is that bad...
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Wow! A bit higher than I had thought it would go for, but I am happy for the person who put it together.
Yes, how ironic that Amiga Inc. comes out with its lame announcement of a pending announcement (again), right on the heels of the community actually producing something real and tangible. Yeah I know it is only a remake of an OCS A500, but it is just the beginning of something bigger and better.
I am hoping the Open Source and Amiga Communities will soon surpass anything that Amiga Inc. can come up with. That will truly serve my sense of justice, after Amiga Inc. have left us with nothing for so many years, we can then do the same to them by making our own Next Generation Amigas via Maxi-Minimig version 5.0 (due out in the first quarter of 2010).
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stated that the total hardware costs were 180 Euros, not pounds,
That sounds about right. My rough estimate on cost for my minimig is at about $150-$170US. So if you can sell it for a $200 profit after all your costs, and factoring in maybe 10 hours of work for an experienced person... The $$ per hour doesn't look too bad. Unfortunately once more complete systems are made, that profit margin is bound to drop. First to market in this case will have a tidy profit I think.
Plaz
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amigadave wrote:
making our own Next Generation Amigas via Maxi-Minimig version 5.0 (due out in the first quarter of 2010).
Bagzie calling it "MegaMig". A MiniMig with a 100MHz 68060, 128Mbytes of SDRAM, 16-bit AHI compatible audio and 24-bit RTG graphics.
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alexh wrote:
amigadave wrote:
making our own Next Generation Amigas via Maxi-Minimig version 5.0 (due out in the first quarter of 2010).
Bagzie calling it "MegaMig". A MiniMig with a 100MHz 68060, 128Mbytes of SDRAM, 16-bit AHI compatible audio and 24-bit RTG graphics.
Sounds great to me, when and where can I buy one?
Seriously, I hope that just such a design is completed in the not too distant future. It must also have ECS minimum, 15kHz & 31 kHz, and preferably, AGA. Then we can start working on AAA on our own with full backward compatibility for MegaMig-II.
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amigadave wrote:
Then we can start working on AAA on our own with full backward compatibility for MegaMig-II.
Shouldn't we call it a MiniNyx then? :-D
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15 and 31 khz is already possible by a jumper :P
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amazing wrote:
15 and 31 khz is already possible by a jumper :P
He means 50 and 60Hz.
McVenco wrote:
Shouldn't we call it a MiniNyx then? :-D
D'oh, I should have thought of that!
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Can't tell you how close I am to hitting 'buy it now' on the 2nd auction...
Fast cars or Amiga gear, its gonna cost ya...
:-D
-(e)
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sweetlilmre wrote:
Can't tell you how close I am to hitting 'buy it now' on the 2nd auction...
Do it! Do it! Do it! :lol:
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By any chance...is the dutch guy selling this wonderful kit registered on this forum??
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yes the guy is registerd on this forum
his name is wizard66
as soon as my parts arrive i build 3 minimigs 1 for me 2 for any intrested..
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amigadave wrote:
...
I am hoping the Open Source and Amiga Communities will soon surpass anything that Amiga Inc. can come up with. That will truly serve my sense of justice, after Amiga Inc. have left us with nothing for so many years, we can then do the same to them by making our own Next Generation Amigas via Maxi-Minimig version 5.0 (due out in the first quarter of 2010).
with UAE, AROS and now Minimig i think weve had amigainc buried for years. im betting well see ocs modded to ecs and possibly rtg on the minimig with a diy 020 accelerator before too long.
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I take a deep bow for those who take their interest in building this projekt :-D
And I hope this projekt finds it's way to little Denmark :-)
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Wizard66 said it took him about 14 hours to build. He put an awful lot of effort in it and it really shows.
Very nice work.
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I can vouch for the time taken on the making of the boards.
Those 0805 Capacitor's and Resistors *REALLY* take time because of their size :)
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It is such a shame that these incredibly expensive minimigs can never be upgraded to AGA due to the fundamental design flaw of 16-bit video output. :madashell:
AGA requires 24-bit video output. :rtfm:
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Those 0805 Capacitor's and Resistors *REALLY* take time because of their size :)
0805 (2mm x 1.25mm) Rs and Cs, Yes they are small but it should not be taking too much too individually (unless you are tring to perfectly align thenm). Ok, I will admit it does take a bit of practice to get quick at it. But after a few minimigs you should be quite good at it.
0603 (1.6mm x 0.8mm) are not too bad.
0402 (1mm x 0.5mm) now thats getting a bit hard without magnification buts its the most common size now.
0201 (0.6mm x 0.3mm) now thats small.
01005 (0.4mm x 0.2mm) I don't think I would even bother attempting.
I don't know what method you are using. But the quickest method is to use an ordinary soldering iron:
1. solder a small amount of solder too one pad only
2. place the part next to the pad (such that is is over the other pad) then hold by the sides with tweezers.
3. heat the pad with the iron on the outside edge of the pad.
4. slide the component into the pre-soldered pad
5. remove iron, wait a few sounds then remove tweezers
6. solder the oppersite side.
7. add a little more solder (or flux) to the first side if needed
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I'd say someone with some basic skills who is familiar with smt stuff should be able to put together a minimig in about an hour.
I only took me about 5 minutes max to lay down the fpga, and thats the hardest component on the board. As small as the leads may be, you still don't need any magnification or special tools to get it on there.
(http://koft.net/pix/sfpga.PNG)
flux the pads
rake the iron across the pads to build up a layer of solder
center the chip on the pads
tack down two corners
double check the centering
get a tiny solder ball on the tip of the iron, place down the iron at the start of the pad and trace it along the pad until it bumps the lead, you'll see surface tension on the solder work it way up the lead, etc.
For the chip resistors and caps, I smear some paste on both pads and build up a thin layer of solder on both of them. I then center the device on the pad, press down on it and hit one side, then i do the other and then go back and hit the first side again. Actually, I add the solder layer on all the pads for all the device before i start, that way it only takes a few seconds per device to tack them down.
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nBit7 wrote:
1. solder a small amount of solder too one pad only
2. place the part next to the pad (such that is is over the other pad) then hold by the sides with tweezers.
3. heat the pad with the iron on the outside edge of the pad.
4. slide the component into the pre-soldered pad
5. remove iron, wait a few sounds then remove tweezers
6. solder the oppersite side.
7. add a little more solder (or flux) to the first side if needed
For the 0805's, thats EXACTLY the way I did it.
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rake the iron across the pads to build up a layer of solder
If you get the boards finished by HAL (Hot Air Leveling or HASL). Then you can skip this step. HAL is where the pads are all pre tinned and the excess solder is blown off with hot air. This is the best finish to get for soldering too.
Personally If I put solder on the pads first I use solderwick (braid) to remove the excess. Untherwise the IC is harder to place and may sit too high above the pads.
center the chip on the pads
tack down two corners
double check the centering
get a tiny solder ball on the tip of the iron, place down the iron at the start of the pad and trace it along the pad until it bumps the lead, you'll see surface tension on the solder work it way up the lead, etc.
It should be noted that you need a solder with a good flux for this to work well. Or use liquid or gel flux.
Or anther way is too use lots of solder (and hence lots of flux from the solder).
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I don't bother wicking sub mm traces as they don't build up significantly, on larger traces, definitely. One needs to be mindful of using the braid on thin traces as if it is allowed to cool it is very easy to accidentally lift traces off the pcb.
Pre-tinned boards are definitely more convenient.
Flux is definitely important. I always apply flux to the pads after tinning which helps prevent the part from sliding around as much and much and makes the solder adhere to surfaces much better. I recommend being minimal with the solder and liberal with the flux. It is far easier to remove the excess flux than it is to clean up gobs of solder bridges on a qfp.
One thing I have been wondering about is the method of tinning one pad, tacking it down, and then going to the other pad and applying solder. This method would appear to make sure the part is level with the board.
When I do it, I tin both pads, solder one side, then the other, and go back to the first side again. This is much faster than having to hit one side with the iron and push a wire of solder into the other side.
So the way I do it, when I hit the first side and press down, its going to tack down at a slight angle. When I do the other side it should tension the opposite side right? Thats why I go back to the first pad and hit it again, to make sure it's not in tension. Is this necessary?
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Funny... after all those companies failed to deliver new Amigas in all these years, the users finally decided to build them on their own....
The biggest funny is that Dennis wasn't even an Amiga user and had never done an FPGA before. MiniMig was his case study on how it all works. (From what I gather.) Had the Amiga spirit inside all along, turns out. ;-)
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One thing I have been wondering about is the method of tinning one pad, tacking it down, and then going to the other pad and applying solder. This method would appear to make sure the part is level with the board.
I just solder one corner pad. Line the chip up. and heat that one pad (I don't worry about height at this point).
Then go to opposite corner and gently push down (if its not lining up at this point then heat the first pad and adjust)
Then tack one of the pins down.
Go back to the first joint and heat and push. The chip should now be level. You may wish to push and tack the other corners too.
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there's one thing I wonder about minimig building. PIC and the FPGA must be pre programmed. programming the PIC would not be very difficult, but how do you program the FPGA ? or is it programmed dynamically every boot by the PIC from some media ? (sd card ?)
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weirdami wrote:
The biggest funny is that Dennis wasn't even an Amiga user
I don't think that's entirely true. I spoke with him on the recent Dutch Commodore User's Group meeting, and apart from the Minimig he also brought his A3000, which I understood he has had for several years.
Nevertheless, for someone with no FPGA designing history, it's been a hell of an effort to accomplish getting the complete work done (from idea to working final product) in just a year. R-e-s-t-e-c-p for that! :-)
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countzero wrote:
there's one thing I wonder about minimig building. PIC and the FPGA must be pre programmed. programming the PIC would not be very difficult, but how do you program the FPGA ? or is it programmed dynamically every boot by the PIC from some media ? (sd card ?)
Pic is your "Floppy Controller".
At boot, the Pic Firsts listens briefly to the serial port for any contact for Firmware updates (If you have Bootloader installed), Then proceeds to load FPGA core from MMC, which gets Uploaded to the chip.
The system then undergoes a Warm boot, and the Pic then loads Kickstart into Ram (Or the FPGA does it i cant remember), and then warm Reboots once again, booting you into Kickstart. Then you can load games/Workbench or stuff.
MMC/SD *MUST* contain 2 files in the root directory. Minimig1.bin (FPGA Core) and kick.rom
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What's the easiest way to program the PIC18 for this project?
(optimized for simplicity and minimum amount of components)
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freqmax wrote:
What's the easiest way to program the PIC18 for this project?
(optimized for simplicity and minimum amount of components)
There is a plethora of schematics and free software out there for programming pics with parts you can easily pick up at radio shack, but I use the PicKit 2 from microchip. For $50 dollars, it's well worth it and very easy to use, it even comes with a cd and a demo board. Dennis also uses the pic kit 2.
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wizard66 sells the pic chips for around 17 euro i thought
so if u want it preprogrammed buy it from him on ebey
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@whiteb
ok, I see now. This is a good approach which allows for core updates in the future if any improvements need to be made. Thanks !
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2e and 3e Minimig completed in 8 hours a unit.
So practice is helping.
Now I have to wait for parts from the US(DigiKey)
Building 6 more Minimig's
Also I wil make one Minimig for a guy in the UK (PCB and Spartan and memory he will send accros the nordsea)
Mebay I'l make some more but time wil tell.
The cost of 180 euro's was whitout the houseing, but all minimig's I sell wil have one
Housing ebay:http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250181224669&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=015
Pics I sell just to help out anybody that wants to make a minimig, There is no sense in everybody have to buy a prommer...
ebay pic18:http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250181204059&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=015
So back to soldering I say ;-)
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The second one has just been won by buy it now!
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wizard66 wrote:
2e and 3e Minimig completed in 8 hours a unit.
So practice is helping.
Now I have to wait for parts from the US(DigiKey)
Building 6 more Minimig's
Also I wil make one Minimig for a guy in the UK (PCB and Spartan and memory he will send accros the nordsea)
Mebay I'l make some more but time wil tell.
The cost of 180 euro's was whitout the houseing, but all minimig's I sell wil have one
Housing ebay:http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250181224669&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=015
Pics I sell just to help out anybody that wants to make a minimig, There is no sense in everybody have to buy a prommer...
ebay pic18:http://cgi.ebay.nl/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=250181204059&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=015
So back to soldering I say ;-)
Nice work and great idea to offer the pic18 pre-programmed. What would the total cost be for one of each, case and pic18, including shipment to the USA (California zip code 92314 to be exact)?
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by koaftder on 2007/10/29 21:02:21
I'd say someone with some basic skills who is familiar with smt stuff should be able to put together a minimig in about an hour.
I only took me about 5 minutes max to lay down the fpga, and thats the hardest component on the board. As small as the leads may be, you still don't need any magnification or special tools to get it on there.
Maybe with your eyes no magnification is needed, but with these 51 year old eyes I will absolutely be using magnification! :lol:
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@ Cult Member:
The pic travels with the housing so no shiping cost for Pic18 in combination.
Just say your from Amiga.org so I know !!
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koaftder wrote:
I'd say someone with some basic skills who is familiar with smt stuff should be able to put together a minimig in about an hour.
Impossible with the minimig trust me !!
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wizard66 I just sent you payment via paypal for my beautiful Minimeg. Thank you so much for all your hard work building it. The quality of your work really shows off in the pictures. I hope you have great success selling the rest of them. Minimeg is going to be the prized Amiga @ DiscreetFX!
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wizard66 wrote:
koaftder wrote:
I'd say someone with some basic skills who is familiar with smt stuff should be able to put together a minimig in about an hour.
Impossible with the minimig trust me !!
If you have all your parts laid out and your bom on the table you really can do this in about an hour. How long does it take to lay down the microprocessor? A few minutes at most. I got the fpga on there in about 5 minutes. It only takes a few seconds to lay down a chip resistor or capacitor. Soldering down thru hole dsubs takes less than a minute.
The minimig is not a big board and doesn't have that many parts, the parts it does have are trivial to solder.
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@Koaftder
stop the smacktalk..u cant put the minimig together in 1hour
impossible...
u also have to test the 5v circuit..or did u forget about that?
and i suppose u want to have a nice clean board with all components a bit lined out?
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koaftder wrote:
I don't bother wicking sub mm traces as they don't build up significantly, on larger traces, definitely. One needs to be mindful of using the braid on thin traces as if it is allowed to cool it is very easy to accidentally lift traces off the pcb.
Interesting. I intend to be doing some SMT soldering in the next couple of weeks (I'm upgrading the RAM in my chipped Xbox to 128MB), definitely something I'll bear in mind.
This is the method I will be using:
http://warmcat.com/milksop/soldering.html
Seems pretty straightforward (please bear in mind I have done soldering before, I do realise SMT soldering is a little beyond complete beginner level).
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amazing wrote:
@Koaftder
stop the smacktalk..u cant put the minimig together in 1hour
impossible...
u also have to test the 5v circuit..or did u forget about that?
and i suppose u want to have a nice clean board with all components a bit lined out?
I've been slack about ordering the parts. I'll polish it up this evening and when I get the remaining parts I'll video record the process. We should do a minimig assembly speed compo.
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HenryCase wrote:
koaftder wrote:
I don't bother wicking sub mm traces as they don't build up significantly, on larger traces, definitely. One needs to be mindful of using the braid on thin traces as if it is allowed to cool it is very easy to accidentally lift traces off the pcb.
Interesting. I intend to be doing some SMT soldering in the next couple of weeks (I'm upgrading the RAM in my chipped Xbox to 128MB), definitely something I'll bear in mind.
This is the method I will be using:
http://warmcat.com/milksop/soldering.html
Seems pretty straightforward (please bear in mind I have done soldering before, I do realise SMT soldering is a little beyond complete beginner level).
I wouldn't laydown a flat pack like that, though many do. It's just not necessary to make one giant solder bridge across the leads like that. You are dumping heat into the chip unevenly and creating more cleanup work than is necessary.
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@koaftder:
Could you describe your soldering methods?, a page like the one HenryCase showed would be nice. And if you do a video please code with mpeg4 or something similar efficient.
Has anyone oven soldered the Minimig ..?
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This is the method I will be using:
http://warmcat.com/milksop/soldering.html
I would say it is good upto the point of using braid.
It is impossible to get nice looking joints using wick to remove excess solder. Nice looking joints are normally reliable joins.
With the drag method koaftder and I use you get joints that look similar to production wave soldering.
Loading up the pins with solder like was shown on that site is a good substitute to using flux. Holding the board at an angle (or even upside at an angle) you can then drag the soldering iron across the pins and the solder will follow leaving just the right amount of solder behind. This is a variation of what 'koaftder' does.
Don't worry about the heat issue. Heat only couples into the chip slowly due to the thin wires. The reflow solder process (ie. oven) puts more thermal strain on the IC than what you can do putting large blobs of solder on its pins.
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@freqmax
this video shows the drag solder method in action:
http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/Images/Drag%20Soldering%20107.wmv
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nBit7 wrote:
@freqmax
this video shows the drag solder method in action:
http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/Images/Drag%20Soldering%20107.wmv
Ooh, that's cool. Makes it look so easy. Obviously I'd still check my solder joints afterwards with a magnifying glass.
Thanks nBit7 (and koaftder for your advice before).
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@nBit7:
I presume they use fluid flux from a syringe first?
The soldering station seems weird.. 139 'C ..?
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Is there anywhere a nice step-by-step guide on how to build a MiniMig? With recommended hardware?
I think I could do it, but I'm not sure, and I don't want to spend lots on something just to wreck it.
If there is no such guide yet, maybe we should make one? Not aimed at the complete newbie, of course - they should start with something similar - but for people who are fairly confident they know which end of a soldering iron to hold but don't have experience with SMT stuff. Like me. :)
The more people that can make MiniMigs the better, I say..!
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Are there any YouTube videos of the MiniMig in action? I would love to see some user demos of what it can do.
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Just this one (http://youtube.com/watch?v=_2NjNXHUi34) as far as I can tell. Shows the Minimig booting.
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Is all that intial flickering normal?, howcome it behaves like that. Asfaik the *.bit file is 1699136 bits long and will take 0,28 seconds to load at the default builtin clock of 6 MHz, the current setup with a 20 MHz PIC18 should be even faster.