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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: AndrewBell on October 21, 2007, 02:46:25 AM

Title: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: AndrewBell on October 21, 2007, 02:46:25 AM
Any guesses what the forthcoming announcement may be? Maybe they expect to lose the court case and are making OS4 a free torrent download.  :-D

Update: OS4 Classic will be released on 30/11/07. Price unknown so far.
________
Ducati 851 (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Ducati_851)
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest speculation...
Post by: IOWASURFER on October 21, 2007, 04:35:09 AM
Flipping a coin...
I am sure it will be no news is the norm..

:( Which stinks...
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest speculation...
Post by: AndrewBell on October 21, 2007, 04:41:57 AM
Read the update I added.
________
Starcraft 2 Replays (http://screplays.com/replays)
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest speculation...
Post by: Matt_H on October 21, 2007, 05:11:44 AM
This is the first time a firm date has been set. Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Plaz on October 21, 2007, 05:43:16 AM
Hmmm.... to buy a copy even though I don't have a PPC card....

I'm wondering at this point if this is just to tweek Amiga Inc's nose. We'll see  at the end of November I suppose.

Plaz
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: odin on October 21, 2007, 05:49:25 AM
Someone hack it to run on PPC Macs and I'll get me cheap-ass secondhand G3 somewhere and buy OS4 =).
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: TheMagicM on October 21, 2007, 06:18:25 AM
Quote
Someone hack it to run on PPC Macs and I'll get me cheap-ass secondhand G3 somewhere and buy OS4 =).



and so would I.  
Title: whahappa?
Post by: weirdami on October 21, 2007, 07:18:39 AM
No audio/video/webcam feed?
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: derringer3 on October 21, 2007, 10:08:41 AM
OS4 classic will be relase on 30/11 this year? Where is the link??? Cant't believe. I will surely buy on the first day...
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: weirdami on October 21, 2007, 10:52:23 AM
@derringer3

yeah, what i said. fun to reply to the last post, huh? :-P

anyhoo, i speculate wildly that if it's released, then that means there really is hardware coming out or that they realized it would be lame to have the software not ever be used. or, get this, that it would be funky for os5 to come out before os4 did. :-o
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 11:02:34 AM
@weirdami

The hardware for this OS has already been released; it's about OS4 Classic.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: weirdami on October 21, 2007, 11:26:26 AM
@flashlab

I get lost and confused. :-) So, OS4 non-classic is waiting for new hardware before it can come out, but OS4 classic is coming out because it's not waiting for classic hardware? Does anyone remember what the reason was that classic OS4 wasn't allowed to come out before now? Does this (as of yet unconfirmed) news include, somewhere, what has transpired to make the release possible?
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 11:38:48 AM
OS4 "Regular" has already been released but it's exclusive to AmigaOne hardware. So that's why you can't buy it; there's no AmigaOne hardware available anymore.

If new hardware comes out OS4 has to be adapted to support it. That's what AInc is blocking.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: nBit7 on October 21, 2007, 11:38:52 AM
Quote
Does anyone remember what the reason was that classic OS4 wasn't allowed to come out before now?


For the simple reason that new hardware should have been available and more sales would be likely for new hardware vs old.  It would be silly not to focus first on where you think the most sales will come from.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: AJCopland on October 21, 2007, 11:41:10 AM
You mean OS4 running on Cyberstorm and Blizzard PPC cards is actually about to become... a reailty :crazy:

Never thought I'd see the day.

Andy
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Darrin on October 21, 2007, 11:42:05 AM
Quote

For the simple reason that new hardware should have been available and more sales would be likely for new hardware vs old.  It would be silly not to focus first on where you think the most sales will come from.


You mean like the Efika?
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: dammy on October 21, 2007, 11:50:09 AM
Quote
If new hardware comes out OS4 has to be adapted to support it. That's what AInc is blocking.


AI is blocking everything because they terminated Hyperion's contract last December.  Now it will be interesting to see what AI does about this announcement.  I have a feeling the moment Hyperion does begin to sell Amiga-PPC OS4, an emergency request for relief will be filed.  The Judge didn't do anything before since Hyperion didn't have any sales.  Now they will and this may force the Judge into a temporary ruling till the jury trial.

:popcorn:

Dammy
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: nBit7 on October 21, 2007, 11:58:06 AM
Quote
AI is blocking everythign because they terminated Hyperion's contract last December. Now it will be interesting to see what AI does about this announcement. I have a feeling the moment Hyperion does begin to sell Amiga-PPC OS4, an emergency request for relief will be filed. The Judge didn't do anything before since Hyperion didn't have any sales. Now they will and this may force the Judge into a temporary ruling till the jury trial.



As I see it the failed injunction means that Ainc can't do anything (now) about Hyperion selling OS4 to any platform what so ever.  But If AInc (fully) WIN then they can go after money made from any sales.  But given that classic hardware was basically covered by the contract then I don't see AInc getting any money back out of this.  Though I must point out I know very little about law.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 11:59:01 AM
Yep that's going to be interesting. Buy OS4 the first day it's available or it's gone again!
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: nBit7 on October 21, 2007, 12:57:21 PM
Quote
You mean like the Efika?


Both Efika and SAM are a licensing nightmare under the old contract.  Under the contract Amiga were to get 25 USD for every copy of OS4 with AmigaOne (2.03(B)).   The AmigaOne was targeted solely as an Amiga platform so the licence fee is easy too track.  The Efika and SAM are not targeted solely for the Amiga platform.  Thus any licence fee would be more difficult to track and prove.  This I think has much to do with why Amiga Inc are reluctant to licence these platforms.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Darrin on October 21, 2007, 01:16:35 PM
Quote

nBit7 wrote:
Quote
You mean like the Efika?


Both Efika and SAM are a licensing nightmare under the old contract.  Under the contract Amiga were to get 25 USD for every copy of OS4 with AmigaOne (2.03(B)).   The AmigaOne was targeted solely as an Amiga platform so the licence fee is easy too track.  The Efika and SAM are not targeted solely for the Amiga platform.  Thus any licence fee would be more difficult to track and prove.  This I think has much to do with why Amiga Inc are reluctant to licence these platforms.


That's interesting.  I guess the only real solution that Amiga Inc could see would be to put the whole $25 on the OS4 software, however overpricing the only piratable part of a "AmigaOne" system would encourage more people to download the OS illegally rather than buy it.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: nBit7 on October 21, 2007, 01:40:08 PM
Quote
That's interesting. I guess the only real solution that Amiga Inc could see would be to put the whole $25 on the OS4 software, however overpricing the only piratable part of a "AmigaOne" system would encourage more people to download the OS illegally rather than buy it.


The problem with AInc putting $25 on the software is again the contract in '2.03(A) Royalties'.
"Standalone version.  Other than for OS4.0 for which no royalties shall be due by Hyperion,  Hyperion shall pay Amiga for 20 USD for each standalone version of any subsequent version of OS4 developed by Hyperion pursuant to this Agreement"

In retrospect this was a bad decision by Amiga Inc. If they had forgot about hardware licence fee and went for a software licence fee only we would probably see OS4 on these alternative hardware platforms and no law suit.  On the other hand we would not have seen AmigaOnes.  As Eyetech would probably not have taken on the risk if they had compete with generic solutions.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: IOWASURFER on October 21, 2007, 01:40:58 PM

Ah when the obese lady vocalizes I will believe!!!
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Tomas on October 21, 2007, 01:42:22 PM
I hope this version just happens to run on Samantha as well..
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: mingle on October 21, 2007, 01:57:15 PM
"Wow, OS4 for classic Amigas!" - or so I thought...

I was all ready to dust off my trusty A1200, when I realised it's for classic Amigas with a PPC accelerator card! :-(
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: ACK_h8r on October 21, 2007, 02:54:58 PM
Hyperion deserve no support and it is amazing how people are cheering them on when THEY are the ones who have delayed OS4 for years, losing very important developers/users due to greed. If this does come out then hopefully one copy will be sold and the rest pirated.

Nice carrot dangling hyperion, this gem has got your faithful  sheep to return.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 03:01:07 PM
Even so, what have AInc done then?

At least Hyperion developed something...
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: ACK_h8r on October 21, 2007, 03:12:57 PM
Both are as bad as each other but with amiga inc people knew they are useless and untrustworthy but people belived in hyperion which then abused the situation by deliberately sitting on OS4, freezing progress due to them having hopes on getting their greedy filthy hands on owning the os.

Strange how people will blindly ignore that and make out amiga inc are scum while hyperion are the saviours.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: PPC on October 21, 2007, 03:14:06 PM
Lucky me that i've got a ppc card  :lol:

Now i also read on amigaworld.net that OS4 for classic does support mediator boards for A1200/4000, now that my Z IV board is dead i'm going to replace it with a mediator SX.



Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 03:21:30 PM
@ACK_h8r

I agree that Hyperion isn't as holy as some people think but at least they know what they're doing. For them it's about business not charity. If they had it their way we would have OS4 today on new hardware. AInc wasn't interested in OS4 until their AmigaAnywhere failed miserably.

It is also true that the hostage of OS4 of Hyperion was/is bad for the community. AInc doesn't produce anything but Hyperion does and that's why I welcome their effort.

In the end you have to choose between two evils if you want any new Amiga solution.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: motorollin on October 21, 2007, 03:29:31 PM
Now watch the price of PPC cards go up even more...

--
moto
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 03:30:38 PM
Glad I already have one ;-)!
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: motorollin on October 21, 2007, 03:37:34 PM
Wish I had one - but it would probably cost more than my whole A4000 :-(

--
moto
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: jorkany on October 21, 2007, 03:54:37 PM
weirdami,
Quote
Does anyone remember what the reason was that classic OS4 wasn't allowed to come out before now?
Because Hyperion decided to put all their eggs in the AmigaOne basket. Originally Hyperion had said they planned to come out with the classic version before the AmigaOne version, but sometime around 2003 they changed their mind and shelved the classic version. Several times afterwards they stated that there was no way to profit from supporting the classic users anyway, so the classic version sat on the backburner.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: jorkany on October 21, 2007, 03:56:43 PM
Quote
Even so, what have AInc done then?

At least Hyperion developed something...

Ever heard the phrase "there are worse things than death"? Amiga (not the company but the computer, it's reputation, and it's legacy) suffer at the hands of both AInc. and Hyperion.

Quote
I agree that Hyperion isn't as holy as some people think but at least they know what they're doing. For them it's about business not charity.
You've got that completely backwards. How much money do you think Hyperion has made off of OS4 these past six years? Hyperion has made it clear that they wasted a lot of money on OS4 development, and meantime they dropped their game rehashing business to focus primarily on OS4. I don't know what school of finance you subscribe to, but six years in the red isn't an indication that they know what they are doing business-wise.

OS4, provided it ever does ship, *is* charity - for those who want OS4 anyway.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Quixote on October 21, 2007, 03:57:57 PM
:-( My own Cyberstorm III equipped A4000 died on me a couple of years ago, so I really can't use this now.  Still, it's a welcome announcement.  Perhaps other long-awaited events will occur soon, too.

Well, I'll likely get it anyway, just in case.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Plaz on October 21, 2007, 04:04:13 PM
Quote
was that classic OS4 wasn't allowed to come out before now?


One of the Hyperion devs (Rouge I think) had said way back when in a thread that classic was low priority to completing OS4 for A1. If they could have seen the future with no PPC hardware, maybe their priority would have been different. Once OS4 was 'final', they got to work on classic. I don't think there was any restriction to the classic version other than available time.

Plaz
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: number6 on October 21, 2007, 04:09:18 PM
@all

Please see post #38 and the following thread in general for Amiwest information:
here. (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=24490&forum=16&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0)

Presentation of OS4 classic today.
Links to Amiwest audio files from last night.
etc.

#6
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: dammy on October 21, 2007, 04:15:25 PM
Quote
One of the Hyperion devs (Rouge I think) had said way back when in a thread that classic was low priority to completing OS4 for A1. If they could have seen the future with no PPC hardware, maybe their priority would have been different. Once OS4 was 'final', they got to work on classic. I don't think there was any restriction to the classic version other than available time.



Guess they are running low on cash for lawyers.  Or they just want to make as much as they can in case they lose the law suit.

Dammy
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: redfox on October 21, 2007, 04:22:18 PM
AmigaOS4 for Classic Amiga will ship November 30

Thanks Hyperion. :pint:

---
redfox
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Plaz on October 21, 2007, 04:23:31 PM
Quote
Hyperion deserve no support and it is amazing how people are cheering them on when THEY are the ones who have delayed OS4 for years


Plenty of blame to go around. I see one huge reason for the delay being the lack of A1 boards available. Who's to blame for not licencing more manufactures? OS4 has been available in beta for years, but many of us had no where to run it to help spur it's progress. Go lay some of your blame at Amiga Inc's doorstep if you're going to be fair. Because THEY are just if not more guilty for the mess.

Many here are trying not to pick sides, they're just happy to see OS4 moving some where, some how.

Plaz
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Flashlab on October 21, 2007, 04:54:23 PM
@jorkany

I could have expected the blue team would pop up. Some nice insulting insinuations in the text about my supposed education level too.

Anyway I will reply with a normal tone.

Point one: The worse than death thingy.

The difference here is choice. If you think the Amiga is suffering a fate worse than death you have the choice to ignore it. You can go PC/MOS/Mac whatever... It's not you that Hyperion and AInc are fighting over. So if you're suffering over all this you are doing so by your own choice. And my guess is that you are because you're eager enough to post about this on forums while you neither support AInc nor Hyperion. If you like MOS go on support that; no need to tell other people they can't welcome the work Hyperion has done.

Point two: The financial choice of Hyperion

It's true that Hyperion hasn't made much money on OS4. You think they planned it that way? Sounds to me like that they want to make money and sell it with new hardware. That didn't happen; we all know why. When they started the development they didn't know this situation would happen. Giving it all up now; that would be charity! They are protecting their investment in the (maybe idle) hope that in the end they may make money from it.

So please think before you post; we don't need cheap flamewars with insulting comments like on Amigaworld. I read some nice examples there with your name on them...
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Akiko on October 21, 2007, 05:03:19 PM
@ACK_h8r


Quote
Hyperion deserve no support and it is amazing how people are cheering them on when THEY are the ones who have delayed OS4 for years



Is this user name used almost exclusively for trolling? When you aren't Glittering or ACK_h8r who are you normally?  
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Plaz on October 21, 2007, 06:18:24 PM
Quote
Guess they are running low on cash for lawyers. Or they just want to make as much as they can in case they lose the law suit.


Perhaps, but I don't see it making a lot of money. How many copies to sell... a couple thousand? And don't they have to pay Amiga Inc a cut on each sale? So they'd be funding the enemy too.

There would seem to be some reasoning in paying Amiga Inc their cut... to prove to the judge they are good responsible license holders, and they deserve to keep it.

Plaz
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Kaminari on October 21, 2007, 07:11:42 PM
> "OS4 Classic"

It was about time. I'm not even sure my Blizzard is still working, but I'm sure keeping my credit card ready for November 30th.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: AmigaHeretic on October 21, 2007, 07:12:10 PM
I guess I'll keep refreshing winuae.net (http://www.winuae.net) and hoping to see an updated version with a "PPC" check box soon  :-D   Then I'll buy a copy of OS4.

And yes, before anyone asks, I do believe my muti-core 64bit cpu running and several THOUASAND MHZ can emulate a old PPC chip running at ~200mhz.
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: uncharted on October 21, 2007, 07:13:59 PM
Quote

Plaz wrote:
Perhaps, but I don't see it making a lot of money. How many copies to sell... a couple thousand?


I would say a few hundred at most.

Quote

And don't they have to pay Amiga Inc a cut on each sale? So they'd be funding the enemy too.

There would seem to be some reasoning in paying Amiga Inc their cut... to prove to the judge they are good responsible license holders, and they deserve to keep it.


I haven't been following the legal bollocks, but perhaps Hyperion will argue that Amino/Amiga went bankrupt then they don't have to pay KMOS/Amiga?
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Kaminari on October 21, 2007, 07:24:12 PM
@ AmigaHeretic

Try this benchmark (http://pearpc.sf.net/) first, then get back to us. I'm curious to hear how your CPU performs in the real world :)
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: AmigaHeretic on October 21, 2007, 07:36:05 PM
Quote
Try this benchmark first, then get back to us. I'm curious to hear how your CPU performs in the real world :)


I don't think that is even a remotely close comparison.  That is a designed to emulate more like G3/G4 level processor at speeds enough to run MacOS X for god sakes.

We're talking about emulating something that came out for an Amiga 1200 10+ years ago ;-)  

Most Blizzards were probably what the 603e @ 160MHZ??  Pear PC actually probably runs great for this purpose.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: little on October 21, 2007, 07:36:17 PM
Quote

Akiko wrote:
@ACK_h8r

Is this user name used almost exclusively for trolling? When you aren't Glittering or ACK_h8r who are you normally?  


Bill McEwen? :lol:
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Plaz on October 21, 2007, 07:37:44 PM
Quote
I haven't been following the legal bollocks, but perhaps Hyperion will argue that Amino/Amiga went bankrupt then they don't have to pay KMOS/Amiga?


I've been reading the court papers but not analyzing as deeply as some. I see Hyperion with two points to their defence. First.... we've done nothing that gives Amiga Inc the right to pull our license. Second... since than whole AmigaWest/Itec/Kmos/AmigaEast thing was invalid, we hold perpetual license anyway. Any experts reading this please forgive my massive simplification.

Plaz
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: dammy on October 21, 2007, 08:29:00 PM
Quote
I've been reading the court papers but not analyzing as deeply as some. I see Hyperion with two points to their defence. First.... we've done nothing that gives Amiga Inc the right to pull our license.


Hyperion had a 30 day period to reply when AI yanked their license to seek mediation, they chose to do nothing.  That's definently not going to help their case.

Delay of product would be a good example of violating their license/contract with Amiga Inc.  If this had been in any other software vender case, we would be laughing at six years to do a port they said would only take a few months to do.  Keep that in mind.  Then there is Hyperion dancing around ever release with a new catagory name in order to avoid calling it a proper release of OS4.  That shows bad intent on Hyperion's part.  Accepting the $25K from Itec as apart of the buy back option that Amiga Inc executed and then failed to release the source code and object code rights to Amiga Inc is another prime example of Hyperion's bad faith.

Quote
since than whole AmigaWest/Itec/Kmos/AmigaEast thing was invalid, we hold perpetual license anyway. Any experts reading this please forgive my massive simplification.


Judge complained about lack of paper trail.  How hard would that be for the owners to do?  As long as the seller and who purchased it sign a statement it did occure on a given date, then the judge has a signed, under oath, statement that the IP was transferred.  It's like two companies trading equiptment or one company giving equiptment to another settle a debt.

Lets say that AI WA is still the owner.  It has five years after the state disolves the corp to reform.  Then where does that leave Hyperion?  Point I'm trying to make here is the chain of ownership can't be broken, someone has to own it, and if no one does, the state has ownership.

That signed second contract with Itec (or was it KMOS?) for a port job again clearly shows Hyperion believed the succession of corps to be the true owner of IP they licensed. Else why would they sign that second contract?  It would be a sign of bad faith if Hyperion knownly signed a contract with someone that they did not have a license to share AI's IP with.  Are they showing bad faith now by claiming a falsehood of saying Itec was not the appropriate license holder of AI's IP when they believed it then or are they showing bad faith by entering into a contract that they knew was not apart of their orginal license of AI's IP which would transfer AI's IP to a unlicensed third party?

Dammy
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: itix on October 21, 2007, 09:09:46 PM
Quote

since than whole AmigaWest/Itec/Kmos/AmigaEast thing was invalid, we hold perpetual license anyway


Problem here is that Hyperion does not own Amiga trademarks or software. If something illegal or criminal happened it does not help Hyperion at all. Quite contrary because Hyperion has been then aware of criminal actions but proceeded to co-operate with them.

Also, there is no solid evidence that anything illegal happened with Amiga transfer. We know that Amiga is not honest company but why Hyperion teams up with dishonest company in the first place?
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: Plaz on October 21, 2007, 09:38:35 PM
@Dammy

FYI, I'm not agreeing/disagreeing or defending Hyperion. I'm just paraphrasing what I understand are their two main points. Sorry I didn't make that clear befor your in-depth response.

I've avoided long discussions on it all since I see tons of grey area on both sides. For example...

Quote
That signed second contract with Itec (or was it KMOS?) for a port job again clearly shows Hyperion believed the succession of corps to be the true owner of IP they licensed. Else why would they sign that second contract?


Now Hyperion says details of the Amiga West<>Itec transfer involving things like insolvency where kept from them before signing the contract with Itec. Again I can't agree or disagree because I wasn't there, but with out proper documentation on both sides how can a "less-than-layperson" like me begin to decide. Many want to side here or there based on common sense, prior history and postings, and what I think are "sketchy documents".... hard to tell what will really matter to the judge though.

All I know for sure it both sides have messed it up good (developers excluded) and there isn't a fast easy way out because they can't come to an agreement with out stacks of lawyers. Personally I put large blame on those behind every version of Amiga Inc since the takeover from Gateway. They have done a poor job keeping their house and IP in order.

Plaz
Title: Re: whahappa?
Post by: nBit7 on October 22, 2007, 05:43:56 AM
Quote
Perhaps, but I don't see it making a lot of money. How many copies to sell... a couple thousand? And don't they have to pay Amiga Inc a cut on each sale? So they'd be funding the enemy too.


Under the contract, no they didn't have to pay Amiga Inc a cent in royalties for sales of standalone OS4.0.  Later versions 4.1 upwards they have to pay US$20 in royalties for standalone copies.
see 2.03(A) in the contract.
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: hardlink on October 22, 2007, 03:42:47 PM
Quote

AmigaHeretic wrote:
Quote
Try this benchmark first, then get back to us. I'm curious to hear how your CPU performs in the real world :)


I don't think that is even a remotely close comparison. ...


I am curious about how the latest X86 processors would emulate Amiga PPC's too. What is a close comparison? And what would you actually use to run OS4 ?
 
Title: Re: Hyperion AmiWest Announcement
Post by: Boot_WB on October 22, 2007, 08:19:09 PM
Quote

little wrote:
Quote

Akiko wrote:
@ACK_h8r

Is this user name used almost exclusively for trolling? When you aren't Glittering or ACK_h8r who are you normally?  


Bill McEwen? :lol:


That would be yet another Paul Gadd account. :sleep: