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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Invisix on October 03, 2007, 05:16:53 AM
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Greetings!
Well, it's certainly been awhile since I have been here; 1+ years I do believe. Last year I updated my Amiga 1200 to a full blown towered system; D-Box 1200, Mediator, Fast-ATA, Blizzard 1260 (beta card? --- it doesn't run any '060 softwares too well and gets uber hot... and yes it definately IS a Blizzard 1260), and I forget what else I upgraded in it. :lol:
Anyways, a few months ago I obtained an Amiga 3000 at a local thrift shop for only $3 USD! I never used it, never tested it, I tried it today and it worked, it also has a PC Bridge card in it (25Mhz 386sx maxed out ram and even an FPU) -- not bad for $3 USD eh? ;)
I know there is alot of fanboyism when it comes to ECS vs. AGA but I want a truthful and honest answer; I already know AGA Is slower due to lack of chuncky mode.
I *was* using 256-color for my WB but now use 32-color since it seems faster. However AGA 256-color games and scene demos run quite well.
Anyway, I am looking to use a classic "upgraded" amiga for everyday use; internet, music, and games... I am really trying to pull out of the PC realm, I have modern day consoles to get my modern day gaming on, so I really don't need a PC.
My question is what should I do? I've pumped hundred of $USD into my Amiga 1200 to get it upgraded; the only thing I need is a PPC accelerator!
What should I do??? Use my upgraded Amiga 1200 as the everyday use computer, or eventually also upgrade the Amiga 3000 to more "modern" day standards and use it for everyday use? I am/was thinking of just using my Amiga 3000 as a "gaming" system for games that won't run on the A1200; I *could* reverse that though... upgrade (towerize) the A3000 and only use the A1200 for AGA games & scene demos.
I don't want this thread to turn into a debate (ABSOLUTELY NO FANBOYISM); I just want honest answer(s) to know which Amiga is more suitable for everyday use... internet, music, and games.
Thanks in advance. :-D
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My opinion...
If I was going to construct another "fully stacked" amiga, I would definitely do it with an A3000... everything in the original case. (BTW, for $3 you absolutely scored. The A3k is a *really* nice machine.)
Keep the A1200 in its desktop case + B1260, and use it for AGA demos... then you have the best of both. :-)
About your Blizzard -- certain mask revisions of the 060 do run a little warmer than others. Mine did, though it was still fine at 66 MHz with a little 486 cooler + fan.
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Thanks for your input -D-... however as I stated my Amiga 1200 is already towered in a D-Box 1200 tower; i've spent hundreds of $USD upgrading it. Upgraded it about a year or so ago: my A1200 specs are in my sig.
Next! :-D
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if I were you, I'ld get a blizzPPC and keep A3000 as it is. You can't possibly upgrade the A3000 too much without towerising it (a cyberstorm PPC won't fit in the original case) and it will be a hell of a hassle to tower it and you'll end up with a gigantic tower which can't run AGA stuff. Better stick to your 1200T or tower an A4000 if you want to spend more buckets of $ on your amigas. Besides 3000's original case is the sexiest among the amiga line, it would be a waste to put it in an ugly tower.
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Dude $3.00?? that rocks I wish I could make a score like that. I would keep the A3k as is with the exception of upgrading the RAM and and maybe a bigger HDD and faster processor if you can get it at a descent price. I'd get a PPC for the towered A1200 and use that. Cheers!!!
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just my 2 cents:
I think your original idea of using the a1200 in pc's place and a3000 for games that won't run on a1200 is the best. I'd modify it a bit by putting a big HD in a3000 and use this as the main gaming machine except of aga specifics and keep a1200 for everyday general use.
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I agree with Vulture: just expand the A1200 with a PPC card to get every possible modern bit out of it, and leave the A3000 as it is, with a big harddisk and WHDLoad for the games. Since it's got the onboard SD/FF you don't need any expansions to play those games on a modern monitor.
I'm planning to do the same kind of thing myself, but with an A4000 instead of an A1200...
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I had the same doubt... the A3000 is a GREAT machine but it doesn't offer AGA so you can't run all games.
In the end this has been my choice:
- A3000 + OS 3.9 (060/50, 128MB, CV64 4MB, Toccata, Ariadne, MP3@64, CD-R, ZIP...) for a definitive Amiga Classic experience. I can do everything with it!
- A1200 + OS3.1 (030/50 + SCSI, 32MB) just for WHDLoad, demos and gaming
In my opinion, except for the lack of AGA, the A3000 is the best Amiga ever built... but the A1200 in its original case is amazing for gaming. I consider it the definitive Amiga game station :-)
In short, you have to use both :-D
Alex
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My cent is on a1200T. You can upgrade both to ppc and so on, but you will missed AGA games/demos if you choose a3k. In my Bppc with whdload the 99% of the old games/demos run correctly. Of course the best solution will be a4k...
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I dunno guys... an A3000 desktop with a Cyberstorm 060 + gfx board would be a pretty sweet amiga... ;)
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Sell them both and get an A4000. You get the benefits of having everything inside the original case, you can expand it just as much as the A1200 with Zorro cards to replace the Mediator and a Cyberstorm (PPC if you want), or even get a Mediator 4000Di and put PCI cards in your A4000. You also have AGA for all the games you want to play. So I really think the A4000 offers the best experience.
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moto
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dont sell it, you will be missing builtin scandoubler for sure 8-)
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Throw a 68040/060 w/ some fast ram and a graphics card in the A3000. Sell the bridgeboard and put an ethernet card in it for high speed and away you go.
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-D- wrote:
I dunno guys... an A3000 desktop with a Cyberstorm 060 + gfx board would be a pretty sweet amiga... ;)
Can't play AGA games on it, though...
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Can't play AGA games on it, though...
That ain't so bad. Just install those few AGA games on the A4000 with WHDLoad. The majority of the games is OCS/ECS anyway (personally, the only AGA game that I play more than once a year is Slamtilt)
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Having owned an A500, 600, 1000, 1200, 3000, 3000T, 4000D, 4000T...cdtv and CD32
An A4000D or 4000T is the best bet (aga and maximum comapatiblity with modern upgrades) My A4000T had the CSPPC/060, 128 megs, Cybervision PPC, video toaster flyer, DCTV, TBCIV, Peggy plus, Scala (with a scala badge over the amiga badge) It was a great machine with BOTH scsi and IDE.
The A3000 for $3 is great. A graphics card is of use only if you want to play games that support the graphics card.
The picasso IV is good, even the EGS Spectrum is nice, Stay away from the Z2 Retina. A card that can pass through the signal and switch between the A3000 video and the graphics card is ideal.
The BIG plus is the A3000 is VGA out of the box, scsi drives are a dime a dozen on ebay or www.justdeals.com, people give away old scsi cd-roms.
You're lucky, aside from a $35 A1200 I recently scored I've paid with sweat, blood and hard earned duckets for all my amigas.
Oh and for the living room? An xbox running UAE on a lcdtv.
AGA, ECS and hardfile support plus every other emulator you can think of.
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Oh the A4000t has 2 video slots so I was able to use the commdore flicker fixer card to get flicker free video alongwith the video toaster. The colors cap out at 4096 for the commodore card becuase it wasn't 100% AGA compatible... but it worked and for the Toaster switcher screen it was great, I could switch between PC, MAC, and A4000T via a belkin 4 way KVM push button switch.
Used this setup for years, had some great times...No I can do most all of that (minus live vide switching) on a Dual Core MacBook with external firewire drives in HD.
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You already have a great system.
An A3000 will only give you headaches (The PSU is not much powerfull, scsi controller sucks, zip memory sucks, you'll need an accelerator and graphic card, ECS in hi-res is slow if you use more than 4colours, it won't run AGA games/demos and it won't run more games/demos than A1200 -simply use WHDLoad)
I had various machines (2 A500, A1200/040, 2 A3000,2 A4000, A4000T). The A3000 is nice but since I love demos there's no way it could replace my AGA machines.
I have a PPC A3000 with a lot of extras, but believe me: your current A1200 will be better than your A3000 even if you expand it with a 060 card. Since you already own a Mediator I guess you are using a Vooodoo3 right?
Do you really need various machines?
BTW... about your 060 card... have you installed the 68040/68060 libraries correctly? Have you tried Oxypatcher/Cyberpatcher? Have you tried changing the ram type? Have you tried to install a heatsink and fan? Have you tried cleaning the contacts between of the A1200 board, Mediator connector and turbocard? Have you tried to use other PSU? Your 060 card should be stable. Have you tried your 060 card without fast-ata and without mediator?
FastATA sucks... you'd better use the blizzard scsi controller with Yamaha SCSI-IDE adapters.
If I were you I would keep the A3000 as retro-system and expand the A1200 (with a scsi controller for the 060 or a PPC board)
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If you want to game, then the a1200 is definitely you choice. A1200+whdload will be much more compitable on a a1200.
I know there is alot of fanboyism when it comes to ECS vs. AGA but I want a truthful and honest answer; I already know AGA Is slower due to lack of chuncky mode.
I never heard about that part? I thought both chipset lacked it? Does anyone have any info/links regarding this?
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I second getting a 4000D (or T if you can find it...)
ECS is cool beans but an AGA machine has ECS, OCS.. blah blah you know.. I used my A1200 in a tower for everything.. word processing, web browsing, email, you name it.. then the processors started to die on me.. think it's because they weren't secured in a real CPU slot like the 4000 has, plus the 4000 isn't as cramped as a 3000 case..as mentioned above..
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BTW, If your bridgeboard is a CBM one you could use etherbridge device from aminet, fit a NE2000 ISA card and get Ethernet almost for free
I used for some years an old 286 bridgeboard and I used to get 300-400KB/s transfers with a 040/25
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Thanks everyone for your honest opinions.
@Crumb I bought that Blizzard brand new from Soft Hut back in '02 and it's never worked right. Tried to exchange and Software Hut never even bothered to exchange it. It's an XC modle meaning it has one of the first gen '060 CPU chips.
I really need to get a PPC603e@240Mhz/68060@50mHZ PPC board for my A1200 when I have the $ and when I can find one.
I might buy and upgrade an A4000 since PPC boards sold for those use a PPC604e chip, however they run at 233Mhz whilst the A1200 PPC cards run at 240Mhz.
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Yeah but isn't the 603 slower than the 604 even though it's clock speed might be higher?
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@Flashlab yeah that's true...
I just need the funds to purchase an A4000 and all the upgrades including a PPC604e for it.
Maybe I should sell my towered A1200 + A3000 + PC to get the funds. :)
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A PPC A4000 is great and faster than a PPC A1200 but remember that A4000 accelerators are way more expensive than A1200 ones and that A4000 parts are harder to find and also more expensive.
Take a look again at that Blizzard, try it without mediator, with other PSU, with other RAM modules, without fastata, clean the contacts, check out that solder points look ok...
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Invisix wrote:
I just need the funds to purchase an A4000 and all the upgrades including a PPC604e for it.
Maybe I should sell my towered A1200 + A3000 + PC to get the funds. :)
Do it. You won't regret it. I used to have a great A1200 setup: D-Box, Mediator, Voodoo, Blizzard 1260, 128MB of RAM. I thought it was great, but then when I got my A4000 (see sig) it was so much better. It feels more "solid" to me, like it is put together as it was meant to be, unlike a maxed out A1200 which feels hacky and a bit unstable, like the Mediator could just fall off :lol:
Don't get me wrong, A1200s are a lot of fun. Buying loads of small upgrades and attaching them to the A1200 (and each other) can be very rewarding when it works. But when you want a stable, solid machine, you can't beat an A4000 IMO.
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moto
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@Invisix
A well constructed D-Box 1200 system shouldn't have any stability problems.
If you add a Voodoo graphics card, this will radically change your A1200's capabilities. AGA/ECS is one of the main performance constraints on an A1200 system (even with an 060). If the system has a PCI + Voodoo added, this will exceed performance of any Zorro graphics card in an A4000. The Voodoo chipset is far faster than the Virge DX in the Cybervision 64/3D and the Cirrus Logic GD5446 in the Picasso IV. Similary a 100MB PCI network card would outstrip the X-Surf and Ariadne.
Of course A4000s can be the better system when they have a Mediator added, but that would require re-investment in a different Amiga system for you. The performance differences may not justify the cost differences between systems.
The benefits of a high spec A4000 (Mediator+Cyberstorm PPC) over a high spec A1200 (Mediator+Blizzard PPC) are:
- A1200 Mediator has 8MB transfer window constraint - this only affects when large amounts of data need to be sent. A4000 Mediator doesnt suffer from the low limit.
- A4000 Cyberstorm PPC has superior PPC CPU to A1200 BlizzardPPC - may not be that important as very little software makes use of the performance benefit of the 604
- A4000 Cyberstorm PPC has superior SCSI to the A1200 BlizzardPPC - this is one main difference that requires consideration if you wish to use SCSI devices
- A4000 has slightly higher performance access to chipram - only used for legacy AGA/ECS applications- not used when using RTG and RTA.
- A4000 has Zorro III - you will have to decide if Zorro III is relevant to your intended use of the system.
- One small point: the Blizzard PPC can have maximum 256MB Fast Mem, whereas the Cyberstorm can have a max 128MB of Fast Mem. May be relevant if you use Pagestream or similar applications that consume a lot of memory.
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@ Invisix
You really have the best of both worlds. I would only modestly upgrade the A3000. I have an 060 in mine and it cost me some compatibilty (and still won't play Mp3s in full fidelity). Go with an 030 or 040 that has extra ram expandability.
The built-in VGA is great! It also opens many graphic card options: Picasso IV, Picasso II, Spectrum, etc. These cards are Picasso 96 compatible and will take the Amiga's native modes and pass them thru to a modern monitor. This is worth it's wieght in gold. If you intend to surf the net, a graphics card makes all the difference and is superior to AGA.
The A3000 is more repairable than later models due to most chips being socketed rather surface mounted.
The only modern thing this setup won't do well is Mp3s. Add a MasPlayer (if you can find one) or use your incredible 1200.
I wouldn't sell either.
My 2 cents. Grin
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Invisix:
Not sure what prices you see for A4000's, but an outfit in Mission, KS may have refurbished A4000's for between $400.00 and $500.00...(Video Lab, owner is named Ed Jeffries) I don't have the phone number handy now, but you could search A.org... This guy is pretty good, motherboard is cleaned, all ports and drives tested, etc. He repaired both of my 4000's. Not sure how much a tricked out A1200 costs, but I seem to recall paying about $500.00 US for my Blizzard '060 and SCSI module.... not including anything else....
P.S. my $500.00 A4000 came with a WarpEngine/SCSI/64MB, not too bad as I spent upwards of $1000.00 on my first 4000 (many years ago)