Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Matt_H on September 21, 2007, 07:11:39 PM
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Amiga-News.de is reporting (http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2007-09-00082-EN.html) a first look at E3B's new Z3 USB card.
The bulk of the main report is only in German, but there are some pictures as well.
Most likely getting one of these!
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Wow looks nice! I have one Z3 slot left...
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I wish they where coupled with lan too! like an onboard norway...
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Been looking forward geting hands on one :-)
Any release date set?
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@keropi
What about a USB Ethernet dongle? We're talking USB speeds of 12MB/sec on this baby!!
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@tahoe:
I don't know, the dongles already tested on subway/algorPRO are SLOW! 4-5kb/s , I could not make them go faster...
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This card is more then 10, if not 20 times faster. (specially compared to the subway)
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I wish they where coupled with lan too! like an onboard norway...
A 100 Mbit Addon may follow.
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Any release date set?
Not yet, we hope to make it to Xmas this year (announcement of the year seems to be necessary on Amiga market ;-) )
I'm quite busy with real life at the moment, and I must order things after their urgency. At least my desktop is in operation again, so I can try to get the last few developments done for this card.
Michael
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What about a USB Ethernet dongle? We're talking USB speeds of 12MB/sec on this baby!!
Ethernet on USB2 is definitely the way to go here.
About the 12MB/s measurement: it was on a A3640 card, which has no onboard RAM. So the 12MB/s are Zorro III to motherboard RAM, and the speed is higher as on CPU card addon RAM, as there are fewer levels of logic in the data path (bus drivers, MACHs, ...). On the other hand, the A3640 is dead slow when accessing motherboard RAM, so things equalize here again.
You can expect DMA performances of the about 8MB/s to 10MB/s in real life, depending on the hardware setup you have, and about 4MB/s to 6MB/s when running in PIO mode (as explained on a1k.org this is a matter of Buster features, indeed).
But don't fix me on these numbers, development is still ongoing, and timings may or may not change - better have a stable system with slightly less performance than a faster system with hangups and data losses.
Speed is not everything.
Michael
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Great job as always mboehmer_e3b !
I can't wait to get my hands on the new cards :lol:
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*me_want* :-o
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Looking forward to a product. I hope this product is not the end of all your hard Zorro III work michael.
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Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
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Great news Michael! I'll very likely get one of these :-)
However, I remember Chris Hodges stating on the Highway mailing list that Poseidon 3.8 might be the last 68K version, so what can we expect regarding poseidon (68K version) development, updates, new drivers/classes and support when this card gets released?
Thanks!
Dragster, a happy AlgorUSB user!
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This is what I've been waiting for!
Maybe some day we'll get USB2->PCI device/adapter or something (ARSTech?), Hodges makes driver for it and Deneb could provide fastest (DMA) PCI solution for Amigas.. ;-)
Seriously though, maybe this hardware solution in Deneb could provide inspiration for next-gen PCI-bus for A3000/A4000?
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Is it Zorro III only or does it do Auto Sensing?
(I'll get some for my Z3 systems anyway then transfer the Algor to one of the A2000s :))
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Very nice, I am interested in one :)
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Hello Michael,
That is great news.
Many thanks for your development of new kit :)
I will buy one at least, and no doubt others at Lincs Amiga Group will be after some.
Kind Regards, Michael
aka rockape
Founder member of Lincolnshire Amiga Group aka LAG see http://WWW.lincsamiga.org.uk
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So if I get one of these, I won't need to replace my broken ethernet card and get usb support as well? :)
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Is it Zorro III only or does it do Auto Sensing?
Autosensing, with own FPGA designs for Zorro II and Zorro III. At the moment only Zorro III is working, but Zorro II is under development. FPGA designs (i.e. hardware functionality) can be updated by software without any changes in hardware in your Amiga, so if new firmware is released, you just can get it without sending in the card or replacing logic chips.
For USB2 you need DMA and high bus speeds, so Zorro III was the natural starting point ;-)
Michael
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However, I remember Chris Hodges stating on the Highway mailing list that Poseidon 3.8 might be the last 68K version, so what can we expect regarding poseidon (68K version) development, updates, new drivers/classes and support when this card gets released?
Maybe he needed a challenge like Zorro III DMA? :-)
Please ask him directly, as I can't give any statements on his future plans.
Michael
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If he's smart he'll introduce a scheme by which people pay for the new classes / device drivers individually, increasing revenue and allowing him to do more development.
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Awesome news. Count me in to buy two or three of these cards when they are released.
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I have a zorroIV bus from Elbox in my A1200T.
they are not used at all but maybe your usb card would used their potential :-)
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Any news on this puppy? Seeing it's almost Christmas and all...;-)
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Flashlab wrote:
Any news on this puppy? Seeing it's almost Christmas and all...;-)
Well, I have one ;-) Joking aside, Michael is in the last stages of verifying the hardware for series production, and I'm also preparing some goodies such as a very special class driver which will only be available for the Deneb (which I finished a first working version yesterday ;) ).
I case you missed it, in this thread http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2442&page=23 there's an image of the (nearly final) pre-series board.
As giving time frames is a very difficult thing in the Amiga business, I'd rather not give an expected date of availabilty.
Merry xmas though and best regards
Chris Hodges
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Thanks for the update, Chris!
I read some of the comments in that topic and the Deneb sure looks promising! Full FPGA with ability to be flashed to do whatever you want with for a clockport compatible port(fry proof when connecting the wrong way!); internal USB for SATA connection. Nice!
I hope it will be ready soon! Can't wait!
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definively perfect for my needs! finally i can get USB onto my A4000! Thanks
Deneb will woeks on all the 3 Amiga/like platforms? (AmigaOS3.x-OS4 MOS for PowerUP)
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I can't wait to get a couple of these!
and they follow the nice algor design too :-D thanks for the update Chris!
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This card looks excellent. i have been putting off getting usb for my amiga.. but my os4 has just arrived and usb would be a nice addition to my 4000 tower.
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When this card gets out i will build a amiga 4000 . is my plan ....
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Are you back? Where would one buy the special Deneb class software since your site is down?
I consider you the Michelangelo (or maybe Salvadore Dali?) of Amiga programmers.
Would be nice to get updates to Poseidon. I'd pay you for it.
BTW, Chris, Happy Holidays! :-)
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Any update? :bump:
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For a brief update please read my posting at amigaworld.net/
Classic Amiga Software/anyone or hyperion can adopt poseidon usb stack??/posting #34 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=25133&forum=27&start=20&35)
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The card is currently in production. Most parts have arrived, PCBs are a bit late unfortunately. Software is being finished. Fast Zorro IV is also supported.
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Can we pre-order?
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
Can we pre-order?
You're kidding, right? Pre-ordering has a long track record of negative experiences in the Amiga hardware and software history. And no, no T-shirt coupons either.
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No, I wasn't kidding. I want to secure one of these cards and support the developers with the money a pre-order would provide.
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moto
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Fast Zorro IV is also supported.
Erm. Fast-Zorro II, as it uses the same connector and same signals as Zorro II.
Zorro IV uses a custom connector and is not documentated at all, even the pinout of the VG96 connector is unknown. So support for Zorro IV is not planned, as it would need a) an adaptor (VG96 to Zorro II edge connector), and b) documentation for Zorro IV, and I doubt that ElBugs would offer me that for free :-)
From the technical point of view it would be possible to program the DENEB FPGA for Zorro IV support with a suitable connector adaptor to fit the VG96 connector.
Michael
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thanks mboehmer, when chris said Zorro IV support is underway, I nearly had a heart attack :lol:
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motorollin wrote:
No, I wasn't kidding. I want to secure one of these cards and support the developers with the money a pre-order would provide.
E3B and Platon has a proven track record. I would also trust them if they offered preorders through AmigaKit.
I want to be sure that I get one, I'd kick myself if I was order 101, on a batch of 100 cards...
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countzero wrote:
thanks mboehmer, when chris said Zorro IV support is underway, I nearly had a heart attack :lol:
Zorro IV lacks only documentation, and time to implement it :-)
Michael
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arnljot wrote:
E3B and Platon has a proven track record. I would also trust them if they offered preorders through AmigaKit.
Agreed. We're not talking about AI here ;-)
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moto
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@mboehmer_e3b
I used google translate on some of your comments on a1k.org:
DMA on Zorro III is dependent on the remaining machine configuration and is not at all guaranteed configurations (depending on the specific Buster revision and other existing DMA devices).
Can you examplify setups that will cause DMA not to work ?
PIV, CVPPC, Buster11, A2065, Prelude = Will any of these cause DMA not to work?
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arnljot wrote:
motorollin wrote:
No, I wasn't kidding. I want to secure one of these cards and support the developers with the money a pre-order would provide.
E3B and Platon has a proven track record. I would also trust them if they offered preorders through AmigaKit.
I want to be sure that I get one, I'd kick myself if I was order 101, on a batch of 100 cards...
I would also want to pre-order a Deneb. Any chance e3B will be doing it though AmigaKit? I'm there.
-Nyle
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At least we know that Deneb card is at the last steps to finish up. I really want one too. A lot of people asks about pre-ordering, so how about one? And what about the price? Keep up the good work.
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Can you examplify setups that will cause DMA not to work ?
Buster 7: no DMA at all
Buster 9: several Zorro III busmasters possible, but only with workaround (aka Fastlane).
Buster 11: only one active Zorro III busmaster.
Zorro III busmasters are:
- A3000T/A4000T internal SCSI controller (unfortunately)
- any DMA card like A4091 and Fastlane Z3
- Deneb
Only Zorro III busmasters with Buster 9 workaround: Fastlane Z3 and Deneb.
So: internal SCSI on A3000T/A4000T is a pitfall!
DMA examples:
- A4000D, A4091, Buster 9/11, Deneb
- A4000T, no internal SCSI, Buster 11, Deneb
no DMA examples:
- A4000T, internal SCSI in use, Buster 9/11, Deneb
- A4000T, no internal SCSI in use, Buster 11, A4091, Deneb
Non-DMA Zorro III cards do not influence the DMA systems, neither do CPU port turbo cards with own SCSI controller.
Michael
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I would also want to pre-order a Deneb. Any chance e3B will be doing it though AmigaKit? I'm there.
It's nice to see that so many people do really trust us - but we won't do any preorder business.
E3B takes the risk until the production is done, and won't outsource the risk to its customers.
Michael
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The Deneb card have a Flash to put the kick modules like in the romulus or Algor Usb???
Will be nice a sollution to make a easy dual or triple boot system with that flash.
Now its hard to boot os4 / os3.9 / mos in the same system.
Sorry for my bad english but I hope that you can understand the idea.
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The Deneb card have a Flash to put the kick modules like in the romulus or Algor Usb???
The Deneb does include FlashROM for user applications, besides the FPGA boot FlashROM.
Michael
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mboehmer_e3b wrote:
DMA examples:
- A4000D, A4091, Buster 9/11, Deneb
- A4000T, no internal SCSI, Buster 11, Deneb
A couple of questions.
All documentation I have says that A4091 only works with Buster 11. (My A4091 was packaged with a Buster 11 which seems to back this up.) Is this not true?
Isn't the A4091 and A4000T onboard SCSI functionally the same? If so, why would it work on the A4000D with A4091 and not the A4000T?
Same question for the A3000 as I have had the A4091 in there, although I only had a CD-ROM on the internal SCSI.
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I think Michael made a slight mistake w/ regard to Rev.9 Buster and an A4091. The 4091 won't work at all w/o a Rev.11 Buster in the A3000 or A4000 desktops. When said card is installed with a Rev.11 in these desktop versions; you can't install a Deneb and operate it in DMA mode. You'd have to use the PIO mode as the 4091 operates as the sole Zorro III busmaster. I think he meant to say the Rev.11 only allows one DMA Zorro III Busmaster, either an A4091, Fastlane or Deneb. If you have a Rev.9 Buster, you can operate a Fastlane and a Deneb in DMA mode because the Rev.9 chip allows more than one Busmaster and both the Fastlane and the Deneb have workarounds to allow for Rev.9 and the conflict problem (though your mileage may vary).
The A4000T is different because it implements the A4091 on the m/b and there is an additional busmastering conflict as a result, which prevents use of the Deneb whatsoever in DMA mode (and maybe even PIO mode, though I'm not certain). Since all A4000Ts also have Rev.11, even if you don't use the on-board SCSI controller, they again allow only one ZIII busmaster (e.g. a Deneb, Fastlane, etc.). So again I think what he's saying is if you have more than one DMA ZIII card in an A4000T w/Rev.11 (really this is limited to either a Fastlane or Deneb) you'd have to run the Deneb in PIO mode and let the Fastlane run in DMA mode. There shouldn't be a problem with other ZIII cards like the PicassoIV, Cybervision64, Prometheus, etc. as these are not true ZIII busmastering cards (though that may change with the Prometheus as I've read E3B is working on a DMA fix for that card).
.....My apologies to Michael if I got this wrong.
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Argus wrote:
The A4000T is different because it implements the A4091 on the m/b and there is an additional busmastering conflict as a result, which prevents use of the Deneb whatsoever in DMA mode (and maybe even PIO mode, though I'm not certain). Since all A4000Ts also have Rev.11, even if you don't use the on-board SCSI controller, they again allow only one ZIII busmaster (e.g. a Deneb, Fastlane, etc.). So again I think what he's saying is if you have more than one DMA ZIII card in an A4000T w/Rev.11 (really this is limited to either a Fastlane or Deneb) you'd have to run the Deneb in PIO mode and let the Fastlane run in DMA mode.
.....My apologies to Michael if I got this wrong.
You can always use the Deneb in PIO mode, regardless of Buster revisions or busmastering cards or secondary channel a4091 (A4000T).
The A4091 is really broken, regardless as if implemented as Zorro III card or on A4000T. And installing the Deneb in an A4000T and actually using the onboard SCSI can cause hangups with other DMA cards, such as the Deneb. The milage will vary regarding the probability and also largely depends on the CPU card used (if I'm not mistaken).
On my current A4000T board, using the DMA driver causes an instant lockup. Unfortunately.
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Any update on the development status of the Deneb?
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The link to the test report on the first post does not work, because we have changed our forumsoftware.
Here is the testreport again: http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3227&highlight=testbericht
Sorry, it´s in german. My english is not good enough to translate it.
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Any update on the development status of the Deneb?
More on the production status of the Deneb :-)
We had a machine breakdown in our assembly line, which is started this week again. It needed some repair and setup again, so we lost some time in production.
So - things are in production, but delayed due to this failure.
Development of the FPGA logic will be continued, we have a freezeout version for this production run, but hardware upgrades for this part of the Deneb are a matter of software, which can be done easily in your own computer without removing the card. Flexibility is the magic word here :-)
Sorry for the shortness, I'm in a hurry :-(
Michael
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Excellent. Thanks Michael :-)
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mr_silicon wrote:
Any update on the development status of the Deneb?
Michael already commented on the hardware side, so a short update from the software side:
Luciferin has reached release candidate state (yeah, even the updated docs). Bootloader development for the Deneb is finished, and so is the software for the virtual installation disk. It also comes with a small boot intro (Algor users might notice a slight similarity). As a new feature, the Debeb can boot into MorphOS PUP directly from flashrom.
The Deneb USB 2.0 driver has gone into final testing and optimization stages. Poseidon V4.0 has been feature frozen (and a few features have been added aswell :-P ).
Edit: And there is a tool that can be used for mapping the clockport to a fake zorro card carrying clockports (for example the X-Surf), so that you can use clockport cards with drivers not knowing the new Deneb card.
So, everything is getting ready for shipment soon ;-)
So long.
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Great news Chris! I'm looking forward to... ;-)
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Fantastic news!
REALLY looking forward to having one of these.
Please let us know when it is ready for release.
Thanks
Rich
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Boot_WB wrote:
Fantastic news!
REALLY looking forward to having one of these.
Please let us know when it is ready for release.
Thanks
All right folks - it's show time:
Deneb USB 2.0 highspeed controller available (http://www.e3b.de/usb/index_e.html)!
I ordered mine yesterday...
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How many Denebs have been produced? (I want to be sure I can buy one when the money's there)
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It would have been perfect for A2000 power users if it also have IDE (Buddha Flash).
I'll to check if i kick the buddha (sharing the slot with a ISA VGA ) or the GVP Scsi (who had the drive on it)
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Why? It supports USB->SATA adaptors apparently! And it'll boot off them too I think because the Poseidon stack is in firmware.
(yes, mine's been ordered already....)
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Thank you!
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Is there a database of what USB widgets we can use? Or should we make one? For instance, which USB sound cards work? Or 100MBit ethernet?
Perhaps we ought to make a database of known-working USB devices....
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HyAmi wrote:
How many Denebs have been produced? (I want to be sure I can buy one when the money's there)
That's a great question. Unfortunately, I'm a little tight right now but I definitely want to order one. I don't want to miss out but I'd rather not charge it.
Any idea of how many are being made in this run?
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Never mind, I don't want to miss out - I just pre-ordered mine.
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great news!
god i want one. plus an A3K/A4K to put it in! :-D
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spirantho wrote:
It supports USB->SATA adaptors apparently!
Certainly does, I sent them an [advert] Oxford Semiconductor U931S [/advert] for testing.
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What is the status of ZIII DMA for an A4000D?
What is the better buster to have? -11 or -09?
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@ £112.99, someone, somewhere is seriously taking the F'kin Piss!
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alexh wrote:
What is the status of ZIII DMA for an A4000D?
What is the better buster to have? -11 or -09?
Hi Alex,
Well from what I read with -11 you can only have one DMA device on the bus. So for the A4000T it'll have to use PIO mode since the built on SCSI uses that. If you have any other DMA cards on the Zorro bus with Buster -11 the Deneb will have to use PIO mode but it's still a useful card in PIO mode.
Now with -09, I guess there are some bugs to work around but it will handle more than one DMA card. So you could have the Deneb and another DMA device. If you find the old thread on the Deneb there is a more detailed discussion on it. There is also information on e3b's FAQ page.
I have an A4000D with -11 but I have no other DMA Zorro cards so I should be all set. I can't wait.
As for the person complaining about price. This isn't like a cheap PCI USB card made in bulk. Think about the money you can save by using this card. This card will quite litterally allow me to expand my A4000D for less money than it costs.
I am happy and amazed that we still have people dedicated enough to develop hardware for the Amiga platform. Thank you.
You can buy it now or wait until it's a collectors item on eBay for 2-3 times as much. :-D
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As for the person complaining about price. This isn't like a cheap PCI USB card made in bulk. Think about the money you can save by using this card. This card will quite litterally allow me to expand my A4000D for less money than it costs.
Good point. Think of the low priced peripherals that will be available to you...CHEAP usb mice, keyboards, thumb drives, hard disks etc etc. No need to spend $40-$50 for Amiga keyboard or mouse adapters or buy expensive used Amiga keyboards & mice. A good basic Logitech usb optical wheelmouse costs about $20. Just plug it in.
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I think the price is worth it, but now I am going to have to sell even more of my collection to be able to afford 2 or 3 of them.
Damn, now I am getting down to the stuff I really like and it is hard to let go of.
Oh well. :roll:
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sandpiper wrote:
No need to spend $40-$50 for Amiga keyboard or mouse adapters or buy expensive used Amiga keyboards & mice
USB keyboard and mice dont work in (most) games.
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sandpiper wrote:
As for the person complaining about price. This isn't like a cheap PCI USB card made in bulk. Think about the money you can save by using this card. This card will quite litterally allow me to expand my A4000D for less money than it costs.
Good point. Think of the low priced peripherals that will be available to you...CHEAP usb mice, keyboards, thumb drives, hard disks etc etc. No need to spend $40-$50 for Amiga keyboard or mouse adapters or buy expensive used Amiga keyboards & mice. A good basic Logitech usb optical wheelmouse costs about $20. Just plug it in.
It's more the cheap soundcards (no need to pay £50 for a Toccata) and ethernet (no need to pay £70 for an x-surf) that will make the real savings. £10 each for a ethernet and soundcard? You've already saved £100 - AND you now have a top USB card in your machine.
Plus, booting from flashrom, and fast (and modern) storage devices - have you seen the price of 50-pin scsi drives lately? May be obsolete, but that means "rare" in Ebayspeak. You have to pay a (relative) fortune for a 2GB drive that may have spent 5 years in a server getting thrashed 24 hours a day. Now you can use a brand new SATA drive straight from the Deneb.
I'd be interested to know what the transfer speed from USB Ethernet to a Deneb mounted hard drive would be. Does it bypass Amiga memory completely? Can it achieve 100Mb/s ethernet transfer speeds? Are USB gigabit lan adapters supported?
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Boot_WB wrote:
Think of the low priced peripherals that will be available to you...CHEAP usb mice, keyboards, thumb drives, hard disks etc etc. No need to spend $40-$50 for Amiga keyboard or mouse adapters or buy expensive used Amiga keyboards & mice. A good basic Logitech usb optical wheelmouse costs about $20. Just plug it in.
Exactly my thought. I wanted to add a Zorro ethernet card to my A2000 and those things are not cheap even off eBay. I can almost recover 70% of the cost of this card by just using a cheap USB ethernet adapter instead (I hope Amigakit look into selling tried and tested add-ons with their usual excellent software bundles).
A3000 owners will love the ability to add a cheap external slimline CD ROM drive too.
Booting off external drives is the icing on the cake.
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You want to run a USB stack AND a TCP/IP stack when accessing ethernet? You have too much CPU power ;-)
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DENEB is availlable NOW from my new AMIGA Shop (http://voxelamigashop.free.fr) :-)
The retail price has been fixed by E3B from their production costs and three years developpement time and to let a little margin to resellers :-)
BTW, with all the power and stuff cramed in that cute little board, just 20 Euro more than an Algor Pro isn't a steal :-)
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alexh wrote:
You want to run a USB stack AND a TCP/IP stack when accessing ethernet? You have too much CPU power ;-)
Assuming I'm only using the Deneb for ethernet and occasional access to memory sticks (sticking to the onboard SCSI HD & CD ROM), do you expect it to be that bad?
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Ordered one!
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Hi.
"Well from what I read with -11 you can only have one DMA device on the bus. So for the A4000T it'll have to use PIO mode since the built on SCSI uses that. "
NO! If you have an A4000T chances are you already have an accelerator with a scsi2 controler (3 if the CyberstormPPC) so you can just disable the onboard scsi2 controler for ZIIIDMA with the Deneb.
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@Boot_WB
"Plus, booting from flashrom, and fast (and modern) storage devices - have you seen the price of 50-pin scsi drives lately? May be obsolete, but that means "rare" in Ebayspeak. You have to pay a (relative) fortune for a 2GB drive that may have spent 5 years in a server getting thrashed 24 hours a day."
Sh*t!!! Thanks, I didn't knew that! Thanks, I happend to have two 4GB scsi2/3, 7200rpm HD's that are in very good condition (Very noisy though...)and at some point I almost binned them :-o
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@Jose
When I say "a (relative) fortune" I mean per GB, in comparison to (for example) a higher capacity PATA or SATA drive.
I'm not saying that you're sitting on a fortune ;-)
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Thank you for your Deneb USB (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=795) orders
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Jose wrote:
If you have an A4000T chances are you already have an accelerator with a scsi2 controler (3 if the CyberstormPPC) so you can just disable the onboard scsi2 controler for ZIIIDMA with the Deneb.
My plan exactly! :-D
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It's more the cheap soundcards (no need to pay £50 for a Toccata)
Interesting. I see in the press release that there is a new audio class for AHI. I wonder if it would be possible to play mp3s without loading the cpu?
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Couple of questions...
1. I ordered a Deneb for my A3000. How much power can be supplied to the Deneb from the ZIII bus? Is it safe to power mice, keyboards, thumb drives without external power?
2. I have a Subway in an A2500/060. I am quite happy with it. Would there be any advantages in upgrading to Deneb? From reading available information it looks like fast USB 2 speeds aren't possible in ZII space.
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Jose wrote:
Hi.
"Well from what I read with -11 you can only have one DMA device on the bus. So for the A4000T it'll have to use PIO mode since the built on SCSI uses that. "
NO! If you have an A4000T chances are you already have an accelerator with a scsi2 controler (3 if the CyberstormPPC) so you can just disable the onboard scsi2 controler for ZIIIDMA with the Deneb.
YES! You're assuming that someone has turned off the onboard SCSI which of course negates that it is doing DMA on the zorro bus. But that's assuming and my statement was "with the onboard SCSI you have to use PIO with the Deneb" which still holds true.
You could just as easily have said - "NO! I have an A4000D with SuperBuster 9 so I can have two DMA cards." :lol:
...either way it doesn't negate what I said. :roll:
-Nyle
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sandpiper wrote:
It's more the cheap soundcards (no need to pay £50 for a Toccata)
Interesting. I see in the press release that there is a new audio class for AHI. I wonder if it would be possible to play mp3s without loading the cpu?
AHI has nothing to do with MP3 decoding, so DMA USB sound is of no use there. It's generally mpega.library or, if you're lucky, an mpeg.device (delfina, cd32), that does the heavy lifting for MP3s.
The Deneb's high transfer speeds probably benefit AHI's CPU usage in general, but someone still needs to write a usbaudiompeg.device for CPU-less MP3 playback. And the USB sound dongle needs to support such a thing. :-) It's the same reason the Melody, Toccata, AD516, etc. can't offload the CPU for MP3 playback - the latter has no driver and the other two, I think, don't have the necessary hardware on the board.
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@ sandpiper
Re: Subway
Take a look at the benchmarks on E3B's site. There's a big difference between speeds on the Subway and speeds on the Deneb.
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Got one ordered from Amigakit today for my 4000. Love seeing new "kit" for the classic hardware.
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Thank you- much appreciated.
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sandpiper wrote:
It's more the cheap soundcards (no need to pay £50 for a Toccata)
Interesting. I see in the press release that there is a new audio class for AHI. I wonder if it would be possible to play mp3s without loading the cpu?
While the USB Audio does provide stream types for that kind of playback, I'm pretty sure you won't get your hands on a USB soundcard that provides for this, as 99,9% of the usb soundcards are pure PCM devices for already decoded data. So you unfortunately still have the CPU load for decoding -- the same (actually a bit less due to Zorro III access) as with other Zorro soundcards without DSP or mp3 hardware decoder.
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sandpiper wrote:
Couple of questions...
1. I ordered a Deneb for my A3000. How much power can be supplied to the Deneb from the ZIII bus? Is it safe to power mice, keyboards, thumb drives without external power?
2. I have a Subway in an A2500/060. I am quite happy with it. Would there be any advantages in upgrading to Deneb? From reading available information it looks like fast USB 2 speeds aren't possible in ZII space.
1. The A3000 usually supplies 2.0A per Zorro slot AFAIR -- enough for powering three bus powered devices at 500mA each.
2. Speed. The Deneb is *a lot* faster (> 2 MB/sec for Zorro II) than the Subway (you get more data per CPU cycle :-) ). Also, no CPU consumption when idle (or waiting interrupt transfers). The Deneb supports realtime ISO transfers and therefore allows USB Audio and a new Webcam driver to work. You also get the 4MB of flashrom ;-) These are the main benefits.
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@Platon42
Chris, just wondering about the following scenario:
I'm intending to have a USB>NIC adapter, and a USB>SATA adapter attached to the Deneb when it arrives.
If I'm downloading a large file from the internet, onto the SATA drive, what will be the limiting factor on the download speeds?
Will the transfer be via zorro and memory:
NIC > Deneb > Zorro bus > memory followed by Memory > Zorro bus > Deneb > SATA ?
or will the transfers be direct between the two devices?
NIC > Deneb > SATA ?
I do not pretend to have your and Michael's level of expertise, but as this will affect transfer speeds in this situation, I'm curious to know.
Thanks
Rich
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Boot_WB wrote:
I'd be interested to know what the transfer speed from USB Ethernet to a Deneb mounted hard drive would be. Does it bypass Amiga memory completely? Can it achieve 100Mb/s ethernet transfer speeds? Are USB gigabit lan adapters supported?
TCPSpeed between my Amiga (060, PIO mode) and Pegasos 2 with MiamiDx on both machines: 800KB/sec in both directions with ASIX Ethernet adapter for 20 EUR.
The CPU is the bottleneck here. I haven't tried other TCP/IP stacks than MiamiDX, which is said to be much slower than other stacks. For USB packet generation, the ethernet frame itself needs to be assembled in memory first before being sent to the USB card. SANA2/Poseidon API lacks here a bit regarding buffer assembly inside the RAM of the controller. There are a few Gigabit Adapters with ASIX Chipsets aswell, but you won't get much over 10MBit/sec speed, and not even close to what is achievable with Gigabit controllers. Of course.
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Boot_WB wrote:
@Platon42
Chris, just wondering about the following scenario:
I'm intending to have a USB>NIC adapter, and a USB>SATA adapter attached to the Deneb when it arrives.
If I'm downloading a large file from the internet, onto the SATA drive, what will be the limiting factor on the download speeds?
Will the transfer be via zorro and memory:
NIC > Deneb > Zorro bus > memory followed by Memory > Zorro bus > Deneb > SATA ?
or will the transfers be direct between the two devices?
NIC > Deneb > SATA ?
I do not pretend to have your and Michael's level of expertise, but as this will affect transfer speeds in this situation, I'm curious to know.
The transfer will go like this:
NIC > Deneb Driver (Zorro to memory) > Poseidon Library > ethernet.class (frame unwrapping, memory to memory) > TCP/IP stack (PPPoE > TCP Decoding (memory to memory)) > Application (possibly buffering) > Filesystem (possibly buffering) > usbscsi.device > Poseidon Library > Deneb Driver (memory to Zorro) > SATA
There is no way I could tell the Application that the data from the NIC should go back to the SATA device, especially because the file system only knows where to write it and the TCP/IP stack needs to decode the ethernet frames (and also doing those expensive 1-complement CRC checksums).
In your example the TCP/IP stack would be the limiting factor.
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Thanks for the quick reply, I don't know enough about TCP to realise this myself.
I was thinking along the lines that once a request for (for example) a file has been sent, the data being received could simply be sent to (for example) a hard drive.
On reflection, I suppose that since data is received in packets it makes sense that the TCP stack would have to receive, reassemble and direct these packets to the appropriate location (memory or hard drive).
Thanks for the info
Rich
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OK, here's a handy looking gizmo:
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/searchtools/item-Details.asp?EdpNo=2329300&sku=M501-1220&SRCCODE=WEBBP655
Does anyone see any reason why this wouldn't work with the Deneb to read from old Amiga 2.5"/3.5" IDE drives and/or copy an OS installation back to one?
It should work for connecting a SATA drive too... and only $20.
How about using it with WinUAE for coonecting a real Amiga HD to a PC?
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@platon42,
Thanks for your replies. Looks like after I get the Deneb going in my A3000, I'll be considering one for my A2500.
@Matt_H,
Thanks for you replies too. I've found the benchmarks you were referring to.