Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Crom00 on September 21, 2007, 03:35:55 PM
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Hello,
With all this talk about Mini-Migs and the hours required to solder all the chips I figure it may be easier in some ways to just spend more money on purchasing a fully populated motherboard without power supply or abs plastic case.
I contaced a factory in Shenzen China about the producing a run of fully populated Mini-Migs. They should be able to give a minimum order quantity and cost per unit based upon the files on Dennis' site.
I have tried to solder surface mounted componets. To say it ain't easy is an understatement. If you misalign a chip even slightly you can ruin a board and hours of work.
My background is in the toy industry. I have sent many items out for cost analasys since 2000. I have worked on many products and have dealt with Chinese manufacturers in the past.
At the very least we will get real world costs on producing this item.
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Let us know, I'd be curious myself, even if I am rolling my own board design.
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I would be interested in this opportunity to get a fully assembled Minimig v1.1. Please keep looking into this possibility and tell the Chinese manufacturer not to paint any parts of it with that lead based paint that they like to use. :lol:
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nice...
The minimig it's an interesting piece of hardware... i'll keep reading to know prices.
;-)
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@amigadave
tell the Chinese manufacturer not to paint any parts of it with that lead based paint that they like to use
Interestingly Mattel sorry for 'design flaws' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7006599.stm)
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Reducing costs is paramount for US toy companies. The low cost of munufacturing in Asia, allows US firms to have elaborate stateside showroom trade show displays, big ad budgets, and take care of the US employees, managers and executives.
It's a vicious cycle that I'm surprised hasn't been exposed in the media up until now.
But for projects like low run specialty market Mini-MIG... Low cost Chinese manufacturing is a win win situation, this isn't a mass market 5 dollar item for childern 3 and under.
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@Piru
Piru wrote:
@amigadave
tell the Chinese manufacturer not to paint any parts of it with that lead based paint that they like to use
Interestingly Mattel sorry for 'design flaws' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7006599.stm)
I don't think that design flaws can be attributed to formaldehyde in bedding and t-shirts (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10459381), especially as it's 900 times World Health Organization's acceptable concentration limit.
Hans
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This sounds very, very interesting. I am curious, did you asked for an estimate up to 1000 units? I ask because at the freescale site that the is the minimum amount you must buy to get the "budget price" for the 68000. I know that quantity is pretty big for an "open project", but with quantity prices lowers and it would be feasible for more people to get their board and maybe add an extra "contribution" of say 10 USD per board to fund the AROS project. Also, will there be a minimig 2.0? Maybe it will be better to wait a little, specialy if it will include supoort for DDR RAM (32mb? 64mb? 128mb?), a pc floppy disk connector (to read those protected disks like the catweasel), RTC and maybe a wifi and/or USB interface.
Anyway, thanks for looking into it, I will keep reading :-)
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Looking forward to seeing the prices....
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I asked the factory what the minimum order quantity is for a product like this. It helps if they can get a big fat order. In prevoious toy projects we were not allowed develop a product with Integrated Circuts if orders totalled less than 50,000 units.
Ideally you have enough orders to cover costs before tooling anything, you can even work it so that orders ship directly to Amiga dealers from China instead of warehousing the inventory doemstically. This way you make only what sell with a 5-10% portion of invertory stored to cover defects & returns and promotional giveaways.
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These factories often have good relationships with suppliers that make small run projects possible. It helps if they believe in the project, or belive they can re-use hardware for other prjoects.
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... we were not allowed develop a product with Integrated Circuts if orders totalled less than 50,000 units.
O_o wow, we are no longer in kansas toto ^^; But I think the minimig might sell that amount of units. Because if enough people get interested in it, it can be lots of things with some changes. It has the potential to become an atari st, or a classic macintosh or a x68000 all in a nice little package that you can plug and unplug without much hassle.
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Keep us informed on how you get on. I'm certainly interested in 2 or three units for myself, so that might just leave you 49997 left to sell. :-)
It's a shame this wasn't happening 2 years ago as I was working in Shekou.
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Just contacted an expat living in HK who is an expert manufacturer of toys and electronics. If Mini-MIG were to be produced he would be the go to guy, He can tell us if it's possible to do at a reasonalbe price point.
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I am definitely interested unless it ends up very expensive, so that is one more potetential buyer. ;-)
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50,000 units might be a big stretch!
1,000 ... yeah, I think you could shift them over time - enough to be profitable, especially if someone developed a C64 core, an Atari 8-bit core and an Atari ST core, and it came with some licensed games. I guess you could even get a Megadrive core implemented... but you'd never get any games.
But for orders being taken via web forums? 100 assembled boards, maybe 200. But better to take a risk with the V1.1, whereas you would probably want the V2 design complete for any larger run.
However a company might decide to fabricate the Verilog into a proper chip with a 68k core, and create a proper product out of it. FPGAs aren't cheap, but a <20mm^2 chip is, made in suitable quantities. Again, let's get V2 designed first!
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... but you'd never get any games.
That is why I think that for version 2.0 it is important to add a floppy drive connector (and maybe a usb connector for a cd-rom). It would add legitimacy to the proyect, people could not say "it is a machine that can only run pirate copies". Just thinking out loud :-)
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I am interested in about 3-5 boards. Keep us informed.
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ever wonder why America economy is in bad shape........
We don't DO much anymore.....
sad
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What is it with people and "OMG gotta have USB".
You will need around 200Mhz for USB, Then you want IDE, 128MB of ram, AGA and all that, why not just Design a totally new board. Oh and yes, of course you only want to pay US$30.
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Oh and yes, of course you only want to pay US$30.
This is a limited run specialty item. We would have to produce hundered of thousands of units to get a price that low.
Factory is working on the quote as I type.
Cheers!
:-D
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I think the target price for a 1.1 fully assembled should be no more than $150US (around £75 - £80GBP). Not too expensive but getting closer to a relistic mass production cost. But of course until we know real figures it still all pie in the sky stuff.
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little wrote:
... but you'd never get any games.
That is why I think that for version 2.0 it is important to add a floppy drive connector (and maybe a usb connector for a cd-rom). It would add legitimacy to the proyect, people could not say "it is a machine that can only run pirate copies". Just thinking out loud :-)
USB won't work, it demands too much in the way of CPU resources. HORRIBLE design from the onset. Firewire is better in that regard.
Incidentally, I have been working on modifying the MiniMig for a basic ATA controller, which means viola, HD and CD-ROM's are now an option. But yes, we do need an Amiga floppy disk controller.
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What is it with people and ... USB".
IMO at some moment people will get interested in adding compatibility with CDTV, CD-i, Sega CD, NeoGeo CD, Turbo CD, etc. so an interface to plug a CD-ROM would be needed (it is feasible to use the memory card, but adding the capability of using real CDs will add legitimacy to the hardware). SCSI is legacy technology, SATA is so new there are no cheap CD-ROM drives for it. That leaves IDE or USB and in my opinion the later is harder to implement but can be used for other peripheals later on so it would be the best choice.
You will need around 200Mhz for USB
No you don't, I remember someone hacked an USB port into his (unaccelerated) A1200 and it worked albeit it did not reached the maximum USB 1.1 speeds, but IDE would be just as slow.
Then you want IDE
It would be redundant with the SD and USB interfaes.
128MB of ram
Would be nice :-D
AGA
Would be nice for some workbench applications, albeit I do not think it could run 32 bits apps/games/CD32.
why not just Design a totally new board
I name thy minimig 2.0 :-D
of course you only want to pay US$30.
I think that if a price range between 50 and 99 USD for a machine without a floppy drive or CD-ROM drive or keyboard or mouse but with a simple case, a 5 volts DC adapter, a sega genesis joystick and a SD card with some games, an AROS kickstart and OS would sell like the C64 Direct-to-TV. Maybe I am dreaming, I know :-)
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I think that if a price range between 50 and 99 USD for a machine without a floppy drive or CD-ROM drive or keyboard or mouse but with a simple case,
It costs several thousand dollars (conservative est.) to produce the tooling molds for a case. This does not include the design, prototype and debug. No way you can get a low run board with a case for $50-99.
We've worked on 15" models with simple IC's and lights that cost $40 at retail. Our margins were break even at best. You only make money for reorders. We had to order 50,000 units to get that retail price. It cost $12,000 alone for the model prototype.
No factory is going to tool that without orders or somekind of commitment from customers. This is being quoted as motherboard only in a master case, packaged like an oem product in a protective esd bag and white box.
Think of how mod chips are packaged. You get the idea.
This is going to be a great learning experience for everyone on this board though.
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I beg to differ. I buy SATA DVD drives for the same price as IDE DVD drives wholesale. In fact, all new workstations and servers I build and sell are 100% SATA.
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It costs several thousand dollars (conservative est.) to produce the tooling molds for a case. This does not include the design, prototype and debug. No way you can get a low run board with a case for $50-99.
*puts thinking cap on*
Call me crazy, but why not use the 1chipMSX case?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:OCM_007.jpg
It has:
2 RCA audio outputs
RCA Composite video output
S-Video video output
VGA video output
PS/2 keyboard connector
2 USB connector
2 DE9 Joystick ports
220V adapter or 110V converter plug
more photos here:
http://www.bazix.nl/onechipmsx.html
The only drawback I see is that only has one ps/2 port, but some PC laptops use have only one ps/2 port but a Y adapter can be used to connect a mouse and a keyboard.
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No cheap sata Cd-roms, are you mad. You can get a top of the range fastest availiable dvd-burner sata ddrive for £20 ($40)
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are you mad.
Quite :-o
dvd-burner sata ddrive for £20 ($40)
AFAIK there are no cd-roms for SATA and I can get (http://www.pcdomino.com/page/PROD/SMCDSAMCD52XNEG.html) an IDE CD-ROM for about $13 USD. When I talk cheap I mean it :-D
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Who needs a SATA CDROM when a SATA DVDROM is just 16€... :-P
(LG GDR-H20NRBB @reichelt.de)
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One other thing to factor into costs, if this thing were to actually sell in real numbers...whoever produces this can expect Amiga Inc. to file a lawsuit "with the quickness..."
Speaking in hypothetic terms of course...
Based upon the past works of Amiga Inc, and given the litagious actions of late (Hyperion case)...
I mean they can't even get it straight with someone they hired to develop the OS4. Imagine what they'll do if they find out someone just sold 50,000 Amiga clones. LOL!
One could argue that they would use the DMCA (or whatever legal grounds possible)and claim that the device promotes pirating of the Amiga IP, threatens Amiga patents, and promotes piracy etc. though use of the kickstart roms and ADF files, etc.
Sure we all know it aint so, that Mini-Mig is totally legal. It doesn't matter if you're right and they're totally wrong. Once someone sues you have to hire a lawyer to defend. Once you have 2 lawyers talking to each other the billable hours skyrocket.
Imainge a container loaded with Min-Migs held at customs because of a lawsuit. Ugghhh...
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little wrote:
Call me crazy, but why not use the 1chipMSX case?
quote]
You can use the MSX case for inspiration, but they own that design and the tooling, you still have to tool your own case since the board layout of the Mini-Mig is not the same as the MSX.
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Guys, 50K is an absurd.
They sell their mothers for 300-400 pcs . Ok these numbers for regular items (speakers, cases etc.) But for minimigs they will produce about 1000 pcs for a reasonable price.
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Yes a few hundred units is something that can be done by a small operation. 50k units gets you better pricing though for sure.
A design that removes the need for purchasing the mc68000 would be better.
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claim that the device promotes pirating of the Amiga IP
If you mean the Amiga™ they are called mimimigs and if that fails then call them Amante :-D
threatens Amiga patents
If you mean hardware patents they have no legal case, reproducing the chip functionality without being an exact copy is legal, since AMD makes Intel x86 chips and how Intel makes AMD x86-64 compatible chips. There would be a legal case if the zorro I/II/III interface was used.
promotes piracy etc. though use of the kickstart roms and ADF files
That is why a floppy interface is so important, remember you can load the kickstart from original amiga floppies. not to mention the operative system and 3rd party software. If reading adf is litigious then do not include it, anyone can add it later on the same way people install virtual floppy drive (http://chitchat.at.infoseek.co.jp/vmware/vfd.html). Also, if the AROS kickstart is never created maybe there can be an "Amiga Forever, MMC edition" :-?
Imainge a container loaded with Min-Migs
If we are talking about a thousand boards then we are speaking of a big box. Also, at least for the time being this is an "open project" so it would be more difficult for Amiga inc. to get litagious actions when there is no corporation or company, just individuals; it would be a pain in the fenny to track a thousand names, addresses, etc.
they own that design and the tooling, you still have to tool your own case since the board layout of the Mini-Mig is not the same as the MSX.
AFAIK no one is using it and I bet the company that made the plastic molds would gladly produce a thousand pieces to whoever asked for them. As for the differing layout, remember it is really a piece of plastic with a bunch of wholes, I think there is enough space for an internal 3 1/2" floppy drive ;)
A design that removes the need for purchasing the mc68000 would be better.
That probably would be difficult, getting a bigger FPGA is too costly and it would be difficult to add a 68000 software core and leave space to continue to add funtionality.
BTW, I am only speaking my mind, but I am no lawyer nor verilog programmer, anyone with indepth knowledge feel free to punch me into submission ^^;
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Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
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Vlabguy1 wrote:
Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
Actually that isn't true, having been there and worked with crews myself. It's economics, the Chinese undercut US manufacturers by steep margins, have a extensive highly skilled low cost labor force, and are eager to please.
If you're manufacturing its a win win situation, if you're an out of work stateside engineer, Creative Service person, or factory worker with a family to feed, its a lousy situation if you've lost a job to outsourcing.
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The ADF issue is a non issue. Obviously we would all be building these to play the highly acclaimed Cinemaware games that are being freely distributed by the legal copyright holders, and every one of us will be buying our kickstart roms legally from Clanto. This means that Amiga will actually get paid for the bulk of the MiniMigs sold.
In all reality, I expect that there would be very little piracy of Kickstarts, as I would guess that most of the people that would bother to buy an actually MiniMig would also be willing to buy Amiga Forever. Those that want an Amiga for free will just emulate on there PC.
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I stand by my statement..about China..
I havent bought a thing from China in about 10years perhaps longer and I dont plan on starting now. Even if it is an Amiga or MiniMig..
I know all about manufacturing/labor etc...
I deal with a local( about 1/2 from where I live in NY) CB manufacturer..and have not felt the need or desire to outsource any of my work.
Or I will do it myself, cuz I can :-)
Peace
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little wrote:
since AMD makes Intel x86 chips and how Intel makes AMD x86-64 compatible chips.
Intel and AMD have a patent exchange - Intel gets AMD64, AMD gets SSE.
Minimig is perfectly legal if you happen to own a dead A500 in the basement (or at least a ROM). Depends on the Kickstart version of course.
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I have little need for another A500, but i'd still take a Minimig if the price is right. Keep us all informed. :-)
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If you're interested in a fully popluated board Please private message me your email, or if you don't want to give out that info just let me know that you're interested.
If this ever goes past cost stages I would need to follow up in an organized fashion. Heck even if I ever got samples I'd offer Dennis and you guys first dibs on them.
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Vlabguy1 wrote:
I stand by my statement..about China..
I havent bought a thing from China in about 10years perhaps longer and I dont plan on starting now. Even if it is an Amiga or MiniMig..
I'd personally like to know how you managed that. I have seen recent reports of people deliberately trying to avoid China-made products and finding that it is virtually impossible. So, if you wouldn't mind backing up your claim, I'd like to see it in another forum. Perhaps your experience can enlighten, educate, and encourage others to do the same.
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Tripitaka wrote:
I have little need for another A500, but i'd still take a Minimig if the price is right. Keep us all informed. :-)
I think it's worth it just to play those games on a modern montior VGA lcd or hdtv style monitor. I spent $80 for a used flicker fixer and $150 for an external scan doubler. Ouch.
And it's portable.
:-P
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Crom00 wrote:
power supply or abs plastic case.
I think power supply and plastic case is something most users can provide easily. A populated SMD board is however the key.
Crom00 wrote:
Imainge a container loaded with Min-Migs held at customs because of a lawsuit. Ugghhh...
One could setup operations outside of jurisdiction where Amiga Inc wants to sue. Or simple just put pressure directly on Amiga Inc directly to not persue.
Piru wrote:
@amigadave
Interestingly Mattel sorry for 'design flaws' (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7006599.stm)
Ofcourse they are sorry. They want to continue business with China :-D ,That excuse just smells political pressure all the way.
@little:
No you don't, I remember someone hacked an USB port into his (unaccelerated) A1200 and it worked albeit it did not reached the maximum USB 1.1 speeds, but IDE would be just as slow.
How will a game for A500 OCS that expect say an Amiga keyboard, and not an usb one interface?, Some hardware will have to translate, and the m68k will be 100% busy with the game software.
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Finding items NOT made in China is difficult..but not impossible. At times its
frustrating..but I have gotten good at it :-)..and Im pretty proud of the fact
that I have been able to do it. I do not compromise..If its made in China I find the same item made elsewhere. I have avoiding China Made items for quite sometime!!
One example of the difficulty Im having is finding a "Non-China" made camera bag for my new D-SLR + lenes that I bought..but I will find one
..as far as other forums..mmm..a few months ago I posted the same
claim on the camera forum I frequent :-).
Not sure how else I can prove it..other than taking a phot of everthing I own and its "Made in" tag..which Im not going to do ..but you can pick an item..I may have and I will take a pic of the made in tag. if you really want me to..
I always say proof is in the pudding..
Stores to avoid:
Walmart(havent been in the store in many many years)
Target(havent been in the store)
any Dollar store( I have never been in one but I can image the crap they sell)
Oh and another side note that MOST not all consumers are NOT really smart they just go for whats in front of them ..if you know what I mean. I can go on and on..
but back on topic..are these MiniMigs avail forsale?
Rich
ny
LoadWB wrote:
Vlabguy1 wrote:
I stand by my statement..about China..
I havent bought a thing from China in about 10years perhaps longer and I dont plan on starting now. Even if it is an Amiga or MiniMig..
I'd personally like to know how you managed that. I have seen recent reports of people deliberately trying to avoid China-made products and finding that it is virtually impossible. So, if you wouldn't mind backing up your claim, I'd like to see it in another forum. Perhaps your experience can enlighten, educate, and encourage others to do the same.
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How will a game for A500 OCS that expect say an Amiga keyboard, and not an usb one interface?, Some hardware will have to translate, and the m68k will be 100% busy with the game software.
As I undestand it, adding a USB 1.1 interface or a Wifi interface would necesarily need extra hardware (as in "one chip that deals with that interface") unless you limit the USB interface to only slow devices (like mice, keyboard and joystick which are redundante in the minimig).
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I tell you, having an Amiga game player that I can connect to a Modern HDTV with a dvi-vga port at 31 klhz is good enough for me. No more unsghtly flicker fixers. Like the whole cheap PC keyboard option. Beats scouring ebay for Amiga keyboards.
Ideally would LOVE to have an AGA version with a VGA graphics chipset, pci interface (for usd, ethernet, etc) and Picasso96 so that old productivity software can run on a future version.
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@ Vlabguy1:
Hey, way to go! Someone else who stands by their principles!
I've also been avoiding Chinese-made goods for years now. It takes some effort; most consumers don't bother. But I disagree enough with the Chinese government's (and many people's) utter disregard for human and animal rights; invasion of Tibet; policies regarding Taiwan; etc, to actively boycott their goods.
And I'm very, very surprised at the lemming-like thinking that afflicts Western economies. Greed. Apathy. Insanity...
BTW, if you're looking for a good SLR bag (as I was a few weeks ago), go for a Billingham (www.billingham.co.uk). Expensive, but you get what you pay for: superb quality, functionality, reputation - and made in the UK!
Finally, why not contract out to Taiwan?
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Now a Taiwan outsourcing is something China certainly will frown upon :-)
Btw, seems .ch support both Burma & North Korea..
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Fraccy,
Thanks for the post, and glad to read that you also avoid chinese made products..and for some of the same I do. Also thanks for the camera
bag link. I did check them out, they are really nice bags, and for the
most part price is not an option with me. Looking for a backpack
style with a laptop(17') compartment. There are some other bags
that I like on the site and will prob. end up ordering from them :-).
Rich
ny
Fraccy wrote:
@ Vlabguy1:
Hey, way to go! Someone else who stands by their principles!
I've also been avoiding Chinese-made goods for years now. It takes some effort; most consumers don't bother. But I disagree enough with the Chinese government's (and many people's) utter disregard for human and animal rights; invasion of Tibet; policies regarding Taiwan; etc, to actively boycott their goods.
And I'm very, very surprised at the lemming-like thinking that afflicts Western economies. Greed. Apathy. Insanity...
BTW, if you're looking for a good SLR bag (as I was a few weeks ago), go for a Billingham (www.billingham.co.uk). Expensive, but you get what you pay for: superb quality, functionality, reputation - and made in the UK!
Finally, why not contract out to Taiwan?
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Vlabguy1 wrote:
Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
Ah. I take it you're from the US and that you're not in the electronics business.
You're excused, you don't know better. That's ok.
-- Peter
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One could argue that they would use the DMCA (or whatever legal grounds possible)and claim that the device promotes pirating of the Amiga IP, threatens Amiga patents, and promotes piracy etc. though use of the kickstart roms and ADF files, etc.
Cloanto's AF would solve legal issues. Porting AROS to Minimig would cut out AI off from any grounds for complaints. If Minimig not using any IP from AI (logos, trademarks, etc), I doubt AI is going to give a rat's ass. This won't even reach their RADAR because it's not what they are attempting to make money from.
OTOH, Minimig drawing Amiga folks away from AI entirely would probably make AI a very happy company. Afterall look at the Kent Sporting Arena fiasco with "our" finger prints all over it. If we all go away and focus on Minimig vs AI, would probably make AI a bunch of happy campers.
Dammy
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Ah..but you are wrong..as I am in the Electronic biz. :-)..
And just to clarify..what does being in the US have to do with
anything? ..Do you think Im some "Pro American"...?or..maybe
cuz I suggested a company in the US build the MiniMig?
I will answer both..just in case :-)
First Im NOT some "Pro American"....Pretty much the only reason
why I suggested the US is because there are plenty of small
PCB manufactures out there that Im sure would love to do the
job..and I deal with one of them in the past and a current project.
Somewhere, where one has a sense of pride in what they are doing.
Chances are that the PCB manufacture has atleast heard of the AMIGA
before...Same with someone in Europe for that matter.
Not sure what the price point would be but Im sure I could find out!
Heck manucature the MiniMigs in Europe..And actually I dont care
where they are made..but if its china I very doubt that I would buy
one. Now if someone gave one to me thats a different story. :-)
Perhaps the CB will be made In Country..then shipped to China
to be Stuffed??
I dont really know the particulars of the MiniMig..but if that is the case
I would buy all the chips and stuff the board myself..
shoggoth wrote:
Vlabguy1 wrote:
Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
Ah. I take it you're from the US and that you're not in the electronics business.
You're excused, you don't know better. That's ok.
-- Peter
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Not sure what the price point of a minimig 1.1 would be but Im sure I could find out!
We will await your price quote, here are the schematics:
http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/downloads/minimig11_schematics.pdf
:-D
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Thanks for the pdf. will see what I can do.. And post any and all info
regarding the matter.
Rich
ny
little wrote:
Not sure what the price point of a minimig 1.1 would be but Im sure I could find out!
We will await your price quote, here are the schematics:
http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/downloads/minimig11_schematics.pdf
:-D
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Guys can we keep this thread on topic instead of bashing various countries manaufacturing standards.
Thanks
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I agree..I tried to do that..in a previous post..
When will we know what the Chinese manufacturer..says about making
these boards..
tonyyeb wrote:
Guys can we keep this thread on topic instead of bashing various countries manaufacturing standards.
Thanks
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Make it on pluto for all I care, just make it.
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persia wrote:
Make it on pluto for all I care, just make it.
Couldn't agree more!!!
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UPDATE:
The factories have replied, they reiewed all of Dennis work, confirm that this project is possible. My old contact in HK says he has the perfect factory for this.
They all want a Bill of Materials, that I'm preparing right now.
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Crom00 wrote:
If you're interested in a fully popluated board Please private message me your email, or if you don't want to give out that info just let me know that you're interested.
If this ever goes past cost stages I would need to follow up in an organized fashion. Heck even if I ever got samples I'd offer Dennis and you guys first dibs on them.
I am definitely interested, but want to know the price before i can say yes.
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Count me amongst 'the interested' please.
re: the made in China thing - the 'made in...' label on any item refers only to where it was assembled. I've worked in manufacturing all my adult life as an engineer and I know that various components are sourced from the Far East, the US, Europe and elsewhere, but because the item is assembled here, it proudly carries the label "MADE IN SCOTLAND"
Sorry to burst the anti-China bubble, but chances are some bits of your non-Chinese stuff still come from China! Probably! :-D
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Yep same here. This will be very popular no doubt...
GL!
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Hey Guys is there a link for all the parts needed for the board? The factory is asking for a Bill of Materials. I have the info for the cardboard, esd bag, and packing, and what will be included but they want a list of all the parts used to make poulate the board with part numbers and manufacturers listed. Is there such a list. Must be if folks are making their own boards...
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Something like this:
http://www.opencircuits.com/Minimig_Manufacture
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Crom00 wrote:
Hey Guys is there a link for all the parts needed for the board? The factory is asking for a Bill of Materials. I have the info for the cardboard, esd bag, and packing, and what will be included but they want a list of all the parts used to make poulate the board with part numbers and manufacturers listed. Is there such a list. Must be if folks are making their own boards...
Go get the Schematic PDF on Dennis's website, and give it to them, along with the PCB.
It has all the Resistor and capacitor values.
If they are *ANY GOOD* at their business, they can work it out from that.
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If they are *ANY GOOD* at their business, they can work it out from that.
If only it were that simple! :roll:
Even if we had a list of part numbers from Dennis (and it's very hard to identify some of the components from sight or the schematics) - some of those are now unavailable and substitutes have to be found/tested/verified.
As more people build these we will get a better and more complete BOM.
Then you are looking at investment in a substantial run to keep the cost under $200.
I think it's a good idea to get as many self built minimigs done - get the community going and people experimenting - and then produce a minimig design that will appeal to as many people as possible. :-)
All IMHO!
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I think it's a good idea to get as many self built minimigs done - get the community going and people experimenting - and then produce a minimig design that will appeal to as many people as possible.
I agree with that.
A design that could be used for more than just a minimig might be an even better idea. That way could make sales outside of the Amiga market.
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Whatever we can do to get a complete BOM helps here. The factories are on board they just need a detailed BOM that lists every capacitor and resistor and IC. Will see if they can work with less.
But in my expereince a factory can never have too much info about a project.
I was sked about testing procedure. So I assume we will also need beta testers and software to test the units on the production line.
TO ANYONE THAT's ASSEMBLED A WORKING MINI-MIG PLEASE PM ME WITH BM.
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UPDATE:
Sent a prelim BOM on the PCB. They are disgesting the data and will get back to us. Just a timeline of what to expect during the next 2 weeks. A complete BOM (right down to package spec and pack in materials will be sent by me) followed by the factory quotes. This could take a couple of weeks so if you don't hear from us it's becuase we're waiting to hear back from the factories.
Wish us luck!
Crom00
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I was asked about testing procedure. So I assume we will also need beta testers and software to test the units on the production line.
It will be very important that someone with a working minimig to provide a sample list of working software, since at this moment what works on a real amiga 500 or in UAE does not necesarily work flawlessly in the minimig, specialy games and nothing would be more frustrating for the people at the china factory than to see a guru error/garbled graphics and/or sound on a correctly assembled minimig.
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Count me in for 2 boards and also as the official reseller in Mexico! :-P
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... but you'd never get any games.
That is why I think that for version 2.0 it is important to add a floppy drive connector (and maybe a usb connector for a cd-rom). [/quote]
At the very least the next feature added should be UAE hard file support. If that could be added to the current board that would be ideal!!!!
Imagine a 2 gig MMC with a 1 gig hdrfile tuned for Mini-MIG? Joygasm! Or better yet, a minimig on a 32" lcd? IN VGA no less... NICE.
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Crom00 wrote:
... but you'd never get any games.
That is why I think that for version 2.0 it is important to add a floppy drive connector (and maybe a usb connector for a cd-rom).
At the very least the next feature added should be UAE hard file support. If that could be added to the current board that would be ideal!!!!
Imagine a 2 gig MMC with a 1 gig hdrfile tuned for Mini-MIG? Joygasm! Or better yet, a minimig on a 32" lcd? IN VGA no less... NICE.
[/quote]
MMC's max at 128, hence why they made SD.
And I have a design for a hard drive, but I'm not finished with the PCB for it.
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little wrote:
are you mad.
Quite :-o
dvd-burner sata ddrive for £20 ($40)
AFAIK there are no cd-roms for SATA and I can get (http://www.pcdomino.com/page/PROD/SMCDSAMCD52XNEG.html) an IDE CD-ROM for about $13 USD. When I talk cheap I mean it :-D
I OWN a SATA DVD burner so I know they exist.
Oh wait... you wanted CD only. Eeeewwww... who would bother? Hardly anyone would want one.
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SATA CD-ROM:
From LiteOn: LTN-52S1S-10
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827106038
My concern:
1. According to Freescale 68K is no longer available. All new products and design should avoid this product.
2. Possible lawsuits from Amiga Inc, Acer, Gateway.
Is it possible to create all-in-one Structured ASIC or Easic (e-beam) based on Minimig design?
Is this approach better for mass production (10 thousands units)?
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asian1 wrote:
My concern:
1. According to Freescale 68K is no longer available. All new products and design should avoid this product.
2. Possible lawsuits from Amiga Inc, Acer, Gateway.
Is it possible to create all-in-one Structured ASIC or Easic (e-beam) based on Minimig design?
1. The 68k 3.3v is still in production and is still used in
a lot of products, just not so many desktop/consoles, see: Freescale 68000 (http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MC68000&webpageId=M934310184622&nodeId=0162468rH3YTLC61654622&fromPage=tax)
2. I wish someone would actually dispell this idea that someone could be sued for the MiniMig hardware, there is NOTHING that is owned by anyone that the hardware could be sued for using. For the actual binaries it might just be possible but even then I don't actually see a legal mechanism since reverse engineering IS LEGAL.
You're idea of producing an ASIC based on the MiniMig at the moment is probably an easier legal target than we currently have as the MiniMig hardware at the moment is just a reprogrammable device.
Andy
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MMC's max at 128, hence why they made SD.
Er, MMCs max at 128Gb which happens to be the same for SD.
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AJCopland wrote:
You're idea of producing an ASIC based on the MiniMig at the moment is probably an easier legal target than we currently have as the MiniMig hardware at the moment is just a reprogrammable device.
I'm not sure that is true. The Amiga OCS patents have expired and that was the protection of the ideas about making a chip with these capabilities. The original chips themselves are no longer protected http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_work
Wikipedia wrote:
According to 17 U.S.C. § 904, rights in semiconductor mask work last only two years (if unregistered) or ten years (if registered).
This means that you could make an ASIC Amiga, say you copied the original mask work (honest guv!) and there is nothing that the original manufacturers can do as it is more than 10 years after they were made.
The copyright issue I previously brought up applies only to the translation of the HRM from English into Verilog. That is a copyright issue and copyrights last 70-95 years.
I think an ASIC (and maybe even an FPGA binary) would be beyond the scope of copyright. To be sure, some legal would have to read the 1996 WIPO treaty & the Berne convention on copyright.
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I'm in two minds about creating an ASIC...
For a mass produced "Amiga in a Joystick" device, yes, it will cut costs drastically, and I'm sure that the 68k would also be incorporated into the ASIC if this was done (I don't see it happening soon).
However the programmable nature of the current design appeals to me. I like the idea of eventually being able to emulate pretty much any 8-bit computer on the FPGA directly, and 68k based systems as well (although the Atari ST ran at 8MHz, so the MiniMig design would need to take that into account somehow because it is clocked slightly slower - that or clock it at 14.3MHz by default).
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Is it possible to create all-in-one Structured ASIC or Easic (e-beam) based on Minimig design?
Yes it would, but IMO it would be a bad idea:
1. The FPGA allows for bug-fixing. ATM the minimig OCS is not 100% compatible with the one in the amiga 500, as more people experienced in verilog get their minimigs this situation will improve, gradually.
2. The FPGA allows upgrading. Chances are that people will also work in an ECS and AGA implementation (both are 16 bits chipsets) and maybe even an AGA+.
3. The FPGA allows versatility. The minimig design allows for the emulation of other 68k based computers, consoles (this would require more ram) and arcade games (this would require even more ram).
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although the Atari ST ran at 8MHz, so the MiniMig design would need to take that into account somehow because it is clocked slightly slower
If I undestood correctly from other posts in this board, the 68000 used in the minimig is the 20 mhz version, so atm it is underclocked to 7 mhz but the clock can be changed to suit diferent systems and even overclocked to 28mhz.
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The DCM can be used to accomplish 8 MHz or whatever other computers need without any hardware modifications. Just take a look at clock_dcm.v
AGA is 32-bit asfaik.
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Hattig wrote:
I'm in two minds about creating an ASIC...
Dont worry you wont be doing it, at between £30,000 to £1,000,000 NRE per ASIC only a large company will be looking at this.
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> NRE 1 Million GBP
What about easic:
From Design-reuse.com:
"eASIC Corporation, a provider of configurable Structured ASIC technology, today introduced a maskless customization approach aimed at eliminating NRE (non recurring engineering) cost for ASIC. The NRE and mask-set cost are removed since eASIC employs direct-write e-Beam approach rather than conventional mask lithography for IC customization. Due to the company’s innovative Via-customization technique, eASIC’s fabric yields about 10 times higher throughput from Direct-write e-Beam machines, compared to metal customization. This is made possible as Vias occupy about 1% area of the customization layer, while metal occupies at least 30%, thus reducing the time e-Beam machine needs to spend writing the customization. Moreover, only a single Via-layer is required for Structured eASIC customization, which further shortens the turnaround time and eventually cuts the cost."
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alexh wrote:
AJCopland wrote:
You're idea of producing an ASIC based on the MiniMig at the moment is probably an easier legal target than we currently have as the MiniMig hardware at the moment is just a reprogrammable device.
I'm not sure that is true. The Amiga OCS patents have expired and that was the protection of the ideas about making a chip with these capabilities. The original chips themselves are no longer protected Wikipedia:Mask_work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_work)
Cheers AlexH I hadn't realised most of that. Now is anyone on here one of those legal types? :-D
Andy
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alexh wrote:
Dont worry you wont be doing it, at between £30,000 to £1,000,000 NRE per ASIC only a large company will be looking at this.
Of course, that's why I think it is a long way off, if ever. Plenty of time for debugging, adding ECS, maybe even AGA.
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AGA is 32-bit asfaik.
Apart from the graphics data fetches, AGA still operated on 16-bit data only, meaning that a lot of bandwidth was wasted during register accesses and copper and blitter
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Graphics_Architecture)
Of course only AGA games/applications that used the 68EC020 as a 68000 would have any chances of working at all, at least that is how I undestand it.
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@Crom00
If you want to avoid wasting a LOT of money, with only a load of NON-working MiniMigs to show for it, then I think you need to be REALLY careful:
You need to double-check EVERY piece of info that you give to the manufacturer, because one wrong bit will mean nothing will work. More specifically, I think that you need the help of someone who has already built a working MiniMig themselves, and use the BOM that they used. Or else make your own BOM, but then get someone to use that to make one MiniMig first (as a test).
Even if you do that, you still need to provide an IDIOT-PROOF means of testing whether the boards are working, or else you may get a nasty surprise when you receive them. You have to remember that the factory guys will have *zero* idea what the MiniMig is (or what it is supposed to do), and probably they won't care either (beyond a step-by-step list of instructions).
And even if you do all that, *if* you haven't dealt with these sorts of manufacturers before, then I'd rate your chances of getting some working MiniMigs as being pretty low. :-( But I wish you good luck - you're going to need it!
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ChrisH wrote:
@Crom00
If you want to avoid wasting a LOT of money, with only a load of NON-working MiniMigs to show for it, then I think you need to be REALLY careful:
Won't go into details about proccess but we have worked with electronics before and had some nightmares as well. We're experienced in dealing with factories in Asia and have dealt with more "worst case scenarios" then we had any right to bear.
Well...It builds character is all I have to say.
Rushing things to market and cost reductions create problems. There is no pressure to meet a mass market deadline and pricepoint for insretion into a Target or Wal-Mart, BestBUy planogram so there is debug time.
We have a good "advocate" or liason working on our behalf to insure this won't happen.
Thanks for the heads up, we've been there. Keep the comments coming.
Once things get rolling I would gladly refer to the expertise of this community in testing boards.
Paramount goal is developing a list of working titles.
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asian1 wrote:
"eASIC [snip] a maskless customization approach aimed at eliminating NRE [snip]
What they dont tell you is the average price per user gate. I bet it is better than FPGA but 10x higher than ASIC.
Still an interesting alternative to FPGA / CPLD for low to medium volume (more than 10k and less than 100k units).
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Crom00: Just make sure they understand the Pic's have to be programmed before being mounted on the PCB :P
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whiteb wrote:
Crom00: Just make sure they understand the Pic's have to be programmed before being mounted on the PCB :P
No need for that, on Dennis' board, he used a dip socket. Production minimigs should have the pic in a socket so people can update replace it. From looking at the pcb, i don't see an icsp header, so the socket will be necessary.
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Crom00 wrote:
Once things get rolling I would gladly refer to the expertise of this community in testing boards.
Back when Commodore was still around, they had a "systest" or burn in disk for repair centers. I might still have a .dms copy around somewhere. I don't know if it would run on the minimig... but it might be interesting to try.
Edit: Found the file- it was ADF, not .dms... but it runs under UAE, although the _blit and RTC tests fail. That could be my UAE setup.
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JimS wrote:
Back when Commodore was still around, they has a "systest" or burn in disk for repair centers. I might still have a .dms copy around somewhere.
I kinda left the Amiga scene in 2001 and burned everything I had to DVD, checked the DVD and although I have WB disks, and HD setup disks (even a A1000 sidecar disks) no burn in disks...
There's a fellow selling one on ebay... of course it's $99...
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At the very least the next feature added should be UAE hard file support.
I do not know if it is posible with minimig 1.1, but it is a two in one feature:
1. Ability to read from UAE hard files
2. Ability to write to floppies and hard files.
Also, since it seems it is getting harder to obtain the small (in capacity) RAM chips, could someone please tell me if it feasible to add bigger (in capacity) chips? 4mb should be the minimum IMHO.
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little wrote:
At the very least the next feature added should be UAE hard file support.
I do not know if it is posible with minimig 1.1, but it is a two in one feature:
1. Ability to read from UAE hard files
2. Ability to write to floppies and hard files.
Also, since it seems it is getting harder to obtain the small (in capacity) RAM chips, could someone please tell me if it feasible to add bigger (in capacity) chips? 4mb should be the minimum IMHO.
In a word, no. The Amiga's chipset can only address 2MB maximum.
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The Amiga's chipset can only address 2MB maximum.
I was thinking about 512 kb kickstart + 512 kb chip RAM + 3MB Fast RAM or any other combination that gave a total of 4 MB; instead of the actual 512 kb kickstart + 512 kb chip RAM + 1 MB Fast RAM.
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@ChrisH:
When I visited a manufactor working for Ericsson I saw that they had been supplied with a testrig such that every board could be verified to be working.
So maybe there should be a daughterboard just to test the Minimig hardware wise.
@JimS:
Maybe you could send your "systest" disc to Dennis such that we can know if Minimig pass?
@little:
Hardfile and write ability should be possible if there's enough code memory.
2M is needed, 4M cost more. Better to get SDRAM working, which will give 32M :-D
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SDRAM working, which will give 32M
Better, how about 32 mb soldered into the minimig and a socket so you could add a 32 or 64 mb chip? :-D
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Well socket seems nice, but are a EMI liability, require board space, more complications than simple soldering it right on.
And most 16-bit computers didn't make use of that many MB. The left over will likely be used for kickstarts or ram discs etc..
Don't forgett all ideas needs to be put into reality. and then murphys law come into play and you will want to keep things very simple.
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Working 1.1 Board...
Anyone have one of these? I'm willing to buy one to help speed up costing. It's going to take a couple of weeks to get costs back. A working 1.1 board will speed this up.
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Crom00 wrote:
I kinda left the Amiga scene in 2001 and burned everything I had to DVD, checked the DVD and although I have WB disks, and HD setup disks (even a A1000 sidecar disks) no burn in disks...
I did much the same thing a few years back, as a safeguard against bitrot on all those old floppies and magazines. Now instead of "the big pile o' disks", I've got the CD full of anonymous ADFs. ;-) If you think it will help. PM me with an email address, I'll stretch a point and send you a copy.
There's a fellow selling one on ebay... of course it's $99...
Ahh.... I can see it now: "Very Rare! official Commodore Amiga Systest disk" What a ripoff artist.
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Crom00 wrote:
I tell you, having an Amiga game player that I can connect to a Modern HDTV with a dvi-vga port at 31 klhz is good enough for me. No more unsghtly flicker fixers.
How many games do you run in interlace?
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Good point, none!
VGA monitors at low-res still provide a great picture and few manufactures make HDTV(LCDTV) that can do 15.75 klhz. Getting away from a 1084 style monitor was a pain. The best solution I had was the Toshiba Timm...20" CRT that did VGA, and AMiga 15.75 klhz.
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Iggy_Drougge wrote:
Crom00 wrote:
I tell you, having an Amiga game player that I can connect to a Modern HDTV with a dvi-vga port at 31 klhz is good enough for me. No more unsghtly flicker fixers.
How many games do you run in interlace?
I plugged my CD32/SX32 into my "HD ready" TV (using S-video) and was happy to find that it took care of the flickering just nicely all on it self, I could even run Workbench and DPaint in the oddball high-res super-interlaced (1364x572 with overscan, iirc) without flicker - amazing :-D
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Is there anyone on this thread that has assembled a working Mini-Mig?
If so would you like to assemble another? We will need 2 assembled Mini-Migs. Although there are folks here that can do the work we understand that they're quite busy with school or work,etc.
If there is anyone out there with the time and technical expertise or an assembled board they would sell us, please PM me with costs.
Factory is advising that a working protoype is ideal for costing and pre-production purposes. They can make one themselves but it will take longer.
They are currently on national holiday and will be back Oct 8th. If we could get them a working sample shortly after that we would be in a good place, knocking off a couple of weeks of any future schedule.
Thanks for all the help and support so far...
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I cant see why I couldn't do it, I got 5 boards on order (Being fabbed) but the FPGA's are on Backorder till the end of October.
I'll have to sit down and do some sums (And see if my Soldering person will accept just a couple of boards), but it will be AT LEAST 100 quid each.
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Be careful of giving working prototypes to Chinese companies if you don't have a contract or own a copyright.
Chinese electronics firms have been known to copy and mimick items which have then been seen for sale at a vastly reduced rate.
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Chinese electronics firms have been known to copy and mimick items which have then been seen for sale at a vastly reduced rate.
Isn't that a good thing with Minimig.
It's open source you know!
We are talking Dennis van Weeren not Steve Jobs! :-D
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Also looking forward to seeing the prices....
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Eclipse wrote:
Be careful of giving working prototypes to Chinese companies if you don't have a contract or own a copyright.
Chinese electronics firms have been known to copy and mimick items which have then been seen for sale at a vastly reduced rate.
The design is open source, as long as they release the sources on any future work or revisions they're golden.
Low Cost Chinese "Mini-Mig Mc68000 developer boards" that happen to run our favorite retro computer games can only be a good thing.
:roll:
The design is open source so no-one save Dennis can claim onwership on the design.
We are just trying to take the lead and get somethig out there as it seems there is no way of running our old game libraries other than aging Amigas and PC emulation.
I just destroyed a pristine A1200 motherboard in a botched hard drive swap operation... Something I've done 1000 times.
Dealing with aging hardware is just too risky and expensive, I'm tired of scouring craiglslist and ebay.
We have to move forward.
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Chinese electronics firms have been known to copy and mimick items which have then been seen for sale at a vastly reduced rate.
That would be the best thing to happen to the amiga community in a decade, having low cost amiga clones. I just went to a local supermarket and for less than $20 USD there is a sega master system clone with 2 PSX controllers (without rumble or analog controls, but with db-9 conectors), a light gun, a game cartridge with several games and an AC/DC converter. I have no idea of the retail price of a mass produced minimig, but I would bet it will be in the $50-$99 range. My only fear is that there will be time to further improve the 1.1 design (so no extra/faster RAM or UHC124 (http://www.transdimension.com/products/usb/UHC124.html) or battery backed RTC will be added).
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Eclipse wrote:
Be careful of giving working prototypes to Chinese companies if you don't have a contract or own a copyright.
Chinese electronics firms have been known to copy and mimick items which have then been seen for sale at a vastly reduced rate.
Come on, you cant tell me that Dennis does not have intellectual property rights on the minimig ?
After all, Dennis released it to the community in a way called OpenSource.
If the Chinese can take ONE or Two popped Minimigs, and churn out 10,000+ are you REALLY against that ? I do not think you would complain. Just remember, the board is based around one specific FPGA, are there currently 10,000 spare Units ?, definitely not at Digikey there is not.
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Hi,
Being open source then I have to agree it's a good thing. I was just worried about someone making a profit from other peoples work.
Whatever pushes this forward is a good thing, and the OP is in my opinion doing the right thing. It was just a word of caution, nothing more.
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I was just worried about someone making a profit from other peoples work.
Should I give you the phone number of your nearest dealer that sells x86 computers preloaded with linux? Those barbarians have yet to give a penny to linux torvalds, I am pretty sure you can vent your righteous anger upon those heartless capitalists :lol:
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Oh come on give him a break, I can see where he is coming from, but thats why Dennis released it to "The community".
To develop it in any way they see fit, as long as Dennis get a mention in recognition for his efforts.
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Getting info back from the factory now we're talking about order quantities. Lookin good guys! hang in there...
:-D
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And I am still waiting for PCB's from Nusim.
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$20 USD there is a sega master system clone with 2 PSX controllers (without rumble or analog controls, but with db-9 conectors),
Has anyone verified that these PS1 Style db9 contollers work with Amigas? If so I can get them costed in China. My agent can probably find out who makes them and do a small run.
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Crom00 wrote:
$20 USD there is a sega master system clone with 2 PSX controllers (without rumble or analog controls, but with db-9 conectors),
Has anyone verified that these PS1 Style db9 contollers work with Amigas? If so I can get them costed in China. My agent can probably find out who makes them and do a small run.
Maybe get the Minimigs first then look at controllers... please!
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Maybe get the Minimigs first then look at controllers... please!
Much like the Amiga we can multitask with low overhead and resources. LOL!
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Has anyone verified that these PS1 Style db9 contollers work with Amigas?
I have not checked, but chances are they are wired like the Megadrive/Master System/MSX/x68000 (http://pinouts.ru/Game/genesiscontroller_pinout.shtml), so they are not 100% compatible with Amiga/Atari ST/C64 (http://pinouts.ru/Inputs/AmigaMouseJoy_pinout.shtml) (+5 volts and Ground are in diferent pins). Changing the pins solves that problem, but only gives access to 3 buttons, to allow more buttons to work it would require to implement this diagram (which adds cd32 functionality for 6 extra buttons for a total of 9 buttons; the 10th button could be used to enable/disable autofire, I suppose) :)
(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2868/cd32commhy2.th.gif) (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cd32commhy2.gif)
Information gatthered from here:
http://dk.aminet.net/docs/hard/appe_v32.lha
edit: Here is a clear diagram of how to implement it:
(http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4388/cd32joyug0.th.gif) (http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cd32joyug0.gif)
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Reducing costs is paramount for US toy companies. The low cost of munufacturing in Asia, allows US firms to have elaborate stateside showroom trade show displays, big ad budgets, and take care of the US employees, managers and executives.
It also allows US companies to circumvent state and federal manufacturing regulations, which is why the cost is so much less in China. IMO, companies that produce overseas and sell in the US should be paying fines equal to what they would receive if they circumvented regulations here in the US - that is, the loophole should be closed.
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jorkany wrote:
Reducing costs is paramount for US toy companies. The low cost of munufacturing in Asia, allows US firms to have elaborate stateside showroom trade show displays, big ad budgets, and take care of the US employees, managers and executives.
It also allows US companies to circumvent state and federal manufacturing regulations, which is why the cost is so much less in China. IMO, companies that produce overseas and sell in the US should be paying fines equal to what they would receive if they circumvented regulations here in the US - that is, the loophole should be closed.
You mean, like Walmart continuing to sell Lead based Thongs (FlipFlops) despite people being *SEVERELY* burned. Even going as far as Marking them down to $2 instead of Recalling them ?
They eventually did, after several months.
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Interesting products that Poisonmart have. I heard Fraudmart promise unusual customer satisfaction on their products :crazy:
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UPDATE:
We are working to get 2 functional units made, after that we have a quote to get 10 test units made up on the same production line that would make MORE Mini-Migs. The cost for such a low run comes out to about +/- $200 per unit plus shipping. These numbers come down with higher volume runs.
A small amount from sale of each board would go to the kickstart bounty.
As for costs on a production run that depends on quantity of the run, and all the hidden costs that come up, still getting quotes back on all that.
Is there enough interest here for an initial run of 10 test units? $200 saves you the time and insanity of soldering your own components, I tried this... not fun.
These are best described as TEST /BETA UNITS and are great to draw up a compatiblity list. As early adopters you would be paving the way for future productin runs.
Any thoughts...?
FOR THOSE THAT ARE INTERESTED:
Factory would need the funds up front so would you guys be willing to pay up front? Delivery time would be 3-5 weeks from turnover of funds. IF by chance you ARE interested PM me your info with: "MINI-MIG BETA BOARD" in the subject heading and if this develops further I'll have your contact info.
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$200 would be a bit too much for me currently.. i would probably go upto $150 personally, so i hope the price comes down a bit when/if you do a larger run.
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$200 for a beta sounds very encouraging. PM Sent to be added to the list.
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PM sent, anything to help get this production moving!
I'm still waiting on parts for my first home built one so it'll be interesting to see which one gets done first! :-D
Andy
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Alas my desire for aquisitions exceeds my supply of latinum...
But for those of us that would jump in and buy excess stock when we had excess cash...
How complete is complete? Just got a little confused 'coz there was talk of cases and joypads etc. and $200 sounds a little on the high side for it. Guess that's due to amortising setup costs over small number of units.
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Give me a few weeks and I could swing $200.
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RW222 wrote:
How complete is complete? Just got a little confused 'coz there was talk of cases and joypads etc.
Mentioned estimated costs and the idea of costing out controller. We were very carefull NOT to mention those items are inlcuded.
A fully realized console would require LOTS volume. This is a limtited run of just the board, as you understand 10 units is too low a run to get everyone the low cost unit we all want with all the bells and whistles.
So we're clear no plans to include a case or controller.
This is for developers and early adopters, I suggest waiting for a production run if/when that happpens for a lower cost item.
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Okay, so what we are talking about here, for all those that are interested, will be a FULLY POPPED board, but without a case ? and controller, meaning without any Joysticks and stuff.
Just the board, with all the components.
Batteries not included :)
[edit] and for those waiting for parts and stuff from the UK, during the Postal industrial action.... (Myself included)./
British high court has *JUST* ruled any more strikes are *OUTLAWED*.
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@Crom00
So what do i have to do to it to get it fully working? Is the only thing needed to send over a rom image and then you are pretty much good to go? If so, then what is the process really? sd card wtih rom image? needing to burn/program a chip manually or what?
Thanks in advance.
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The FPGA and legallly obtianed kickstart ROM are loaded at startup from an MMC card.
Instructions for how it all works are at Dennis' site. He also recently complied the soruce code to make it easier for us. He also has a Mini-MIG manual there to check out.
For this initial run of 10 we would supply a fully functional populated board sans power supply or MMC.
Examining what we else can include for a larger run, waiting to hear back from all vendors.
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Tomas wrote:
@Crom00
So what do i have to do to it to get it fully working? Is the only thing needed to send over a rom image and then you are pretty much good to go? If so, then what is the process really? sd card wtih rom image? needing to burn/program a chip manually or what?
Thanks in advance.
SD-Card will need a MINIMUM of 2 files, kick.rom (ummm, i wonder what this is), and minimig1.bin (The FPGA Core).
On the card, you can put whatever you want on it in adf format. Bearing in mind that the SD Card file system is Fat-16, where the filenames are a MAXIMUM of 8.3 (Who remembers DOS ?)
What crom is saying, is you will get a fully popped board, just add a 5V powerpack, and the loaded SD Card and away you go.
You will need (at this stage) to supply your own PS2 Keyboard and mice, and/or Joysticks.
From what I understand, the necessary chips on the board will be Pre-programmed (Pic).
What happens is thus..., you power on the minimig, Pic reads the MMC, loads the Core into FPGA, Resets itself, Core loads Kick.rom from MMC, and resets and Boots into Kickstart.
Now, it is up to the individual to Source the Kick.rom themselves, either from an operation Amiga, or via commercial avenues, like Amiga Forever which has copies of kickstart.
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filenames are a MAXIMUM of 8.3 (Who remembers DOS ?)
FAT 16 has support for up to 255 characters filenames with LFN :rtfm: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat16). What I would like to know is if the PIC program has LFN support :-?
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PM sent. Let's get this ball rolling. :-)
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little wrote:
filenames are a MAXIMUM of 8.3 (Who remembers DOS ?)
FAT 16 has support for up to 255 characters filenames with LFN :rtfm: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat16). What I would like to know is if the PIC program has LFN support :-?
Check the source out then ?
http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/downloads/minimig1_firmware_15_07_2007.zip
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struct file2TYPE { unsigned char name[12]; /*name of file*/ ...
It seems to me there is no LFN support :shrug:
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Who cares if it has LFN or not? Oh the hardship of renaming your adf files to 8.3 format!
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If this develops further will let you guys know more details and make a formal announcement. Still weeks away from that, just getting costs back.
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Drifting for a moment into presumtion (dream)land, if (next year) there is a mass production of minimigs 2.0 and if it includes an interface that allows connection to the internet (rj-45, 802.11b or usb) would it be fast enough to surf the net? I read the other day about the Icab 2.9.9b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icab) web browser for the 68k macintosh and maybe they could get interested in porting it to amigaos 3.1? It needs 4.5 mb of RAM, so a minimig with 8 mb ram would be required.
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That requirement translates into using DRAM (3.3V-EDO, SDRAM, DDR1, DDR2).
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Any news on these?
Thanks
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Nope. Our PCB's got hung up due to the postal strike in the UK. Difficult to move forward without a working unit. The only other populated PCB units in existance made by other parties are being sold to the highest bidders on ebay.
Working around this.
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I just hope the workers are paid well, and lets hope they don't have a baby, GASP!
Dealing with the new world order is kinda sketchy if you ask me. What sort of conditions will these workers be working in I wonder.
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Working to get another PCB vendor so we can resume work on this at full speed. The electronics factories are fine been over there, not like the media tries to portray. Good hard workers, clean facilities.
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Figured I ask...
Anyone outside the UK willing to part with at least one bare PCB to further this cause? I ask for blokes outside the UK due to the unreliable nature of Royal Post.
Your would be helping moving this project forward... No ebay solicitations please.
Thanks!
Crom00
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I would volunteer, but I am waiting for the Royal Mail to deliver my MiniMig to the USA. :boohoo:
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Anyone outside the UK willing to part with at least one bare PCB to further this cause?
Well, I live in The Netherlands and I've got a white minimig (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31344) for you to help things going, but it's rev 1.0 :-( Would that be alright?
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Not to say the regime and conditions are perfect by any means, but you do have to remember when seeing shock horror reports that some workers only get paid $5 a week, that basic necessities are also dirt cheap. If you do the "package tour" type visit there, you'll pay western type prices for a big-mac but the locals would be getting their "fast food" from roadside stalls for like 3-5 cents for a meal.
IMO, things will only change there as the economy fully develops into a free market, free enterprise economy, that will only happen through external trade. Political and social change will probably result in time. Ergo, refusing to trade with China is like condemning them to eternal insular communism. IMO transition from warring feudal societies to democratic unified state takes about 50-100 years of political stability under a hardass monarch, dictator, colonial administration etc. Then democracy will take hold successfully. Can't be rushed, the tribal feuding has to pass from living memory, then democracy can take hold, try it too early and it's highly likely to break down into a feudal mess of competing warlords. So looking at it that way, a communist dictatorship is a larval stage for democracy (one of several types). Russians just came out of it, China wasn't unified under it until post WWII so they might have a few years yet.
Anyhoo, whaddaya gonna do, refuse to buy products made by 12 y.o.'s such that they starve in the streets instead, send money for relief and let them hate you for the loss of their dignity. Or participate in the process of letting the country pull itself up by it's bootstraps (painfully slow to watch) which appears to me the surest way to lasting change. They might seem to be taken advantage of at this point in time, but 3 Billion people aren't going to let a few multi-nationals walk all over them forever.
Then you might say "What about the jobs in my country" well what about them, if something would never happen due to expense of doing it here, it's hardly a loss to make it happen by getting it done somewhere affordable is it? In fact, since the ICs are from, or licensed from, US companies, there's probably more of a net benefit in doing it elsewhere than not doing it at all. Proper jobs at a fair union wage you say...... develop that thought..... extend to ultimate logical political conclusion..... it ends with pretending to work, while the govt pretends to pay you, after several years of which, and the queueing for bread, you might decide that working 80 hour weeks for $5 in a capitalist economy isn't such a bad idea to get the country on it's feet again. Swings and roundabouts.... we've got some imbalance at the moment, supporting the high side, or holding down the low side, is an exercise in artificial stability... let the balance ease into place, supporting the high side until it becomes heavy enough to crush the support, results in carnage.
But, not meaning to threadjack, just saying that if you think you've got ideological objections to the method and place of manufacture, just take a look at the long term and big picture and make sure you haven't got your ideology on backwards.
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CD32Freak wrote:
Anyone outside the UK willing to part with at least one bare PCB to further this cause?
Well, I live in The Netherlands and I've got a white minimig (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31344) for you to help things going, but it's rev 1.0 :-( Would that be alright?
Is that the one with Silkscreen on one side ??? :lol: I have not forgotten that :)
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@whiteb
Yeah, go ahead and laugh, but one day I will frame it and sell it on eBay for hundreds of Euro's! :lol: ;-)
It was the first time I ordered a PCB :-) Besides, I can't help there was only a top silkscreen gerber file with the first release. Well, at least it made you and probably others laugh :-D
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@RW222,
You wrote:
".....But not meaning to threadjack, just saying...."
Wow, what a huge three paragraphs of jacking you wrote that has little to do with MiniMigs. I think perhaps you should have saved that for another forum thread in the correct forum title.
Anyway, to get back ON TOPIC, I will buy a fully populated v1.1 MiniMIG from the first person that can produce one. (Even if it is produced in China, Tibet, Egypt, Indiana, Tijuana, or my neighbors backyard)
Let me know when they are available.
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Uhm, and what does iCab 2.9.9b have that amiga browsers dont have? Apart from higher RAM requirements that is :-D
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Uhm, and what does iCab 2.9.9b have that amiga browsers dont have?
You tell me (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICab#Features)
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Continuing to get word back frm factoires, they are having problems sourcing the ram and the following parts:
the cost does not include IC9 & IC5, IC6 & 7 Ram.
Where have y'all been getting your parts, I'll pass the info along. I suspect they're using asian suppliers hence the sourcing issues.
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Crom00 wrote:
Continuing to get word back frm factoires, they are having problems sourcing the ram and the following parts:
the cost does not include IC9 & IC5, IC6 & 7 Ram.
Where have y'all been getting your parts, I'll pass the info along. I suspect they're using asian suppliers hence the sourcing issues.
IC5 - FPGA, Digikey (Who are also having supply issues, Estimated Lead time, December 07)
IC9 - 68000, Digikey (245 in stock)
IC6 & IC7 - RAM, Digikey (130 in stock, 65 minimig's worth).
If they are looking for the Original StaticRam from Minimig 1.0, then yes, its Obsolete, thats why Dennis moved to Asynchronous Sram. They need to look for IC SRAM 8MB ASYNC 44-TSOPII (IS62WV51216BLL-55TLI)
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amigadave wrote:
tell the Chinese manufacturer not to paint any parts of it with that lead based paint that they like to use. :lol:
u planning on extensively licking your minimig?
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sir_inferno wrote:
amigadave wrote:
tell the Chinese manufacturer not to paint any parts of it with that lead based paint that they like to use. :lol:
u planning on extensively licking your minimig?
It is the new fad, how many licks do you need to get to the center of your minimig? X_X The world might never know :lol:
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@sir_inferno,
Don't you lick all your PCBs before you start soldering? :lol:
Tastes like Commodore chicken lips! :crazy:
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amigadave wrote:
@sir_inferno,
Don't you lick all your PCBs before you start soldering? :lol:
Tastes like Commodore chicken lips! :crazy:
Yeah, didn't you know that Saliva works better than Solder flux ?
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If you want to keep the price down then you will want to steer clear of digikey and farnell.
Sources can be found using a service like partminer (www.partminer.com)
Or go to manufacturer site and find out who the distributors are.
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Any news on this? Nearly two weeks since last update?
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Some delays. UK Postal strike slowed down assembly of our test unit. Will advise further. Hope to decide on a factory and start on the first 10 units within the next couple of weeks. Finding someone that will do small numbers is a challenge.
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Crom00 wrote:
Some delays. UK Postal strike slowed down assembly of our test unit. Will advise further. Hope to decide on a factory and start on the first 10 units within the next couple of weeks. Finding someone that will do small numbers is a challenge.
I'm still hanging in here, waiting and hoping. Good luck. :-)
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The November issue of Circuit Cellar Ink magazine has a short article on putting a project into production. Interesting, but nothing new to the folk trying to set this up. It's good background for those following along from the gallery. ;-)
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Any joy with your Minimig Crom00?
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Any news Crom? Got any rough dates in mind for delivery of the beta boards?
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One factory is moving slow, really slow with costs. Another is much more on the ball in that regard. Whatever factory I decide expect 6 weeks for turnover of funds to getting boards in hand. That will get us 10 boards to play with for those that showed interest and PM'd me for a dev board.
Things have gone slow becuase one of the vendors is taking forever to get answers and we had a 2 week delay in getting our boards from the UK.
Spent the weekend playing with the MiniMig sample we have. Very nice. It's picky about the type of MMC card used as you won't get a display unless you use a compatible card. Monitor must support 50hz. I use a Hanns G 22" 1080p screen. Not the best monitor to showcase this as it stretches horiz pixels too much due to the widescreen.
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How long before you want to cold hard cash??!
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When we place the order with the factory, pay them and get working samples then we will accept orders for the first 10 units. This is also a side gig for us so paying gigs take prioirty but despite the setbacks we have spent decent time on this and things are progressing.
All I know is I just boxed the thing up becuase I'm finding myself PLAYING the games for too long instead of testing one and moving onto the next game, or getting other work done. Highly addictive...
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Crom00 wrote:
All I know is I just boxed the thing up becuase I'm finding myself PLAYING the games for too long instead of testing one and moving onto the next game, or getting other work done. Highly addictive...
Now thats a nice thing to hear :-D
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Just about to order a competition pro joystick.... hope the minimigs are coming soon!
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I can't wait to see this forum filled with postings about "dead" minimigs - made in china and people pleading for help. High *cough* quality from china. frankly you'd be better off to make it in your home country, close to a manufacturer who you can visit and see to ensure all is done right (quality control). Don't people hear about the toy recalls? Think about it next time you decide to do business with china...
what you pay for is what you get... If it was me, I'd make this either in Canada, USA, Japan/Korea/taiwan or some european country (depending on where you're located - giving you close access to manufacturer).
oh and once you make 50000, don't forget you may see another 50000 duplicates offered at quarter of price. (see China does not see copyrights/trademarks too well, so protect your intellectual property). :-D
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@guru-666
true. but what do you expect? people don't want to pay much for anything these days. America is turning into a 3rd world country. Good paying jobs are disappearing also.
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Vlabguy1 wrote:
Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
Glad to see i'm not the only one that feels this way. Pick Taiwan, at least they are not communist rogue nation, and some of their stuff is good quality. Best make it in USA at least you'll be sure its meeting quality controls (whatever you want them to be).
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White collar jobs are disappearing too you know. Even Toy Product Managers, Finance folks...:roll:
Crom00 wrote:
Vlabguy1 wrote:
Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
Actually that isn't true, having been there and worked with crews myself. It's economics, the Chinese undercut US manufacturers by steep margins, have a extensive highly skilled low cost labor force, and are eager to please.
If you're manufacturing its a win win situation, if you're an out of work stateside engineer, Creative Service person, or factory worker with a family to feed, its a lousy situation if you've lost a job to outsourcing.
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Electronics - made in mexico stuff, or other its not hard to find (go to circuit city).
Computers - lots of madein china brands but you can still buy components from malaysia and other countries.
shoggoth wrote:
Vlabguy1 wrote:
Why would you contact China..everything they make is CRAP!!
Why not the U.S.??
Ah. I take it you're from the US and that you're not in the electronics business.
You're excused, you don't know better. That's ok.
-- Peter
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terminator4 wrote:
I can't wait to see this forum filled with postings about "dead" minimigs - made in china and people pleading for help. High *cough* quality from china. frankly you'd be better off to make it in your home country, close to a manufacturer who you can visit and see to ensure all is done right (quality control). Don't people hear about the toy recalls? Think about it next time you decide to do business with china...
what you pay for is what you get... If it was me, I'd make this either in Canada, USA, Japan/Korea/taiwan or some european country (depending on where you're located - giving you close access to manufacturer).
oh and once you make 50000, don't forget you may see another 50000 duplicates offered at quarter of price. (see China does not see copyrights/trademarks too well, so protect your intellectual property). :-D
This is a load of crap. Chinese manufacturers can make just about anything at any quality you are willing to pay for.
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@terminator4
Wow, what a vitriolic set of posts. For a reference I'm from the UK and I'd actually say that the common perception is that most things manufactured in the USA is a piece of c**p. Then again many also think that things made in France are a piece of c**p, or Italy, or Spain... well you get the idea. It's just a manifestation of the Not-Invented-Here mentality and whilst it's sad to see the places around you losing jobs it's also true that we could be doing more to keep them rather than just whinging that it's not fair!
In fact most of goods made in China are of a pretty high standard. Certainly as good as anywhere else in the world.
You want yours made in America or Taiwan. Then go to the lengths that Crom00 is going too with his production run. He's sourcing factories, prices, components and forking out for initial test MiniMigs.
As MiniMig is OPEN SOURCE so if someone else wants to make one THEY CAN. There is no copyright there to protect!!!
Andy
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AJCopland wrote:
@terminator4
Wow, what a vitriolic set of posts. For a reference I'm from the UK and I'd actually say that the common perception is that most things manufactured in the USA is a piece of c**p. Then again many also think that things made in France are a piece of c**p, or Italy, or Spain... well you get the idea.
In fact most of goods made in China are of a pretty high standard. Certainly as good as anywhere else in the world.
You want yours made in America or Taiwan. Then go to the lengths that Crom00 is going too with his production run. He's sourcing factories, prices, components and forking out for initial test MiniMigs.
As MiniMig is OPEN SOURCE so if someone else wants to make one THEY CAN. There is no copyright there to protect!!!
Andy
Well said!!!
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It's tough to keep jobs if they pay you 10 cents a day in china vs x in westernized world. anyway i'm not worried as i have a job and unlikely it will be lost overseas. pretty soon everything will be manufactured in china (they have the # of people to do this too). Others who post here frequently should worry more, it's exactly a do nothing mentality that will cause harm.
Why I dislike China:
- it's got fixed currency exchange rates (not free floating like other currencies) making it hard to compete against.
- it's communist, rogue nation that arms & spends every year more on military (in times of peace)
- disrespects human rights and labor rights
- most of the products i bought from china are of low quality. this includes sadly Amiga One (Taiwan or China?) with many bugs. Even the DMA issue was due to bad manufacturing I think.
- toy recalls lately (very scary if you have kids).
Just conveying some concerns if minimig is made in china ...
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The US condones torture.
The US spends more on military than the next 10 biggest spending countries *combined*
The US makes dangerous toys and food that kills people
The US makes low quality goods, look at orec vacuum cleaners and Ford passenger cars.
The US is a rogue nation that apparantly thinks it can invade other countries at will.
etc, etc, etc
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terminator4 wrote:
It's tough to.... SNIP .... minimig is made in china ...
Give up. If people, like you, have a problem with China (or any other country) they wont buy products made in that country. Period. Stop trying to impose your opinion on others. I'll buy my products from whoever I see fit.
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terminator4 wrote:
this includes sadly Amiga One (Taiwan or China?) with many bugs. Even the DMA issue was due to bad manufacturing I think.
You're blaming DMA issues on the people that did the soldering! It couldn't be bad design, oh no, definitely not that.
Look mate, like others have said, if you don't want to buy from China you don't have to.
As for the whole 'taking our jobs' issue, the sad state of affairs (not limited to US, UK suffers from it too) is that job losses are never caused by other countries but rich people in OUR OWN COUNTRIES, but everyone blames the immigrant workers or whatever. The rich are the enemy (when I mean rich, I mean the people who get paid way too much for whatever it is they do) because they treat the rest of us badly and we're so blind to this we blame other poor people for job security issues.
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If someone REALLY knows a factory in the US, Tawian, or wherever that they prefer and know that can handle this kind of work, send me the info. I have no problems swithcing factories if it makes sense.
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Crom00 wrote:
If someone REALLY knows a factory in the US, Tawian, or wherever that they prefer and know that can handle this kind of work, send me the info. I have no problems swithcing factories if it makes sense.
The silence is deafening. :-D
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(China) got fixed currency exchange rates (not free floating like other currencies) making it hard to compete against.
Here in Mexico we had fixed currency for decades and we never were internationaly competitive like China is nowadays. Bottom line, do not blame it on "fixed currency", the USA is less competitive today than it was yesterday.
(China) is communist
China's political regime still is totalitarian, but their economic system has shifted from communism to capitalism.
disrespects human rights and labor rights
Do you realize the USA has been doing just that to illegal immigrants for decades?
toy recalls lately
Let me remind you that in recent months they have recalled from my local supermarket vegetables grown in the USA due to health concerns.
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tonyyeb wrote:
terminator4 wrote:
It's tough to.... SNIP .... minimig is made in china ...
Give up. If people, like you, have a problem with China (or any other country) they wont buy products made in that country. Period. Stop trying to impose your opinion on others. I'll buy my products from whoever I see fit.
Hear, hear.
Lets get some MiniMigs instead.
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As long as Who cannot be named is out of the picture (Loads of them, but referring to the One who Killed the Orginal Amiga, not caring about AAA etc, you get the message), I don't care where a populated working board comes from.
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Crom00 wrote:
If someone REALLY knows a factory in the US, Tawian, or wherever that they prefer and know that can handle this kind of work, send me the info. I have no problems swithcing factories if it makes sense.
I am sure there are, I know of one or two here in Australia that do it, but the difference being, you will probably pay 10 times the price.
I enquired about getting a run of Minimig PCB's done here in Australia when I was not sure what was happening with my Nusim boards.
The cheapest I could get, was like AU$250 for a run of 10, instead of about $US50 from a chinese run.
You can get things done back in the more civilised countries, it just costs more. Why do companies send their production to China and india ?, something called "50c a day".
anyway, Crom, quit playing Elfmania :)
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Within Europe, some local supplier for the discretes. And say Olimex for the pcb. One might get the cost down.
The ONLY reason I started with digikey was due they are a Xilinx FPGA distributor + their parametric search. And they happens to have m68000 aswell.
The tricky components are FPGA & m68000.
Anyone that can optimize the component sourceing will contribute to make more minimigs a reality.
If you have Linux ISE >8.x installed you can try these automatic build files (Makefile):
http://filewebhosting.com/download.php?file=476Minimig1.tar.bz2
(ISE GUI seems to love to crash)
If you do try the minimig verilog compile, please post which cpu type, cpu frequency, memory size, memory type, operating system you used. And how much realtime that was needed.
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@terminator4
Maybe you should also look at the faults of your own country?
USA still tortures people, USA still have death penality, USA still has a huge deal of homeless people, USA invades countries for oil.
USA is also losing more and more freedom in the name of so called terrorism.
I am sure 99% of all x86 pcs has at least some components made in China.
The AmigaONE was a failure simple because of bad choice of chipset. Take for example the via 686b chipset... It had already proven to have alot of bugs on the x86 platforms, but still they choose it? It surely had nothing to do with those who assembled the board.
And who the heck could afford a minimig if it was produced here in the west? It just simply is not possible, unless you do a production run of tens of thousand boards, which is not possible in the amiga world.
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A Chinese Rohs certified factory couldn't possibly do any worse than the hatchet job I would execute if I had to solder all those components... LOL!
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Tomas wrote:
@terminator4
Maybe you should also look at the faults of your own country?
USA still tortures people, USA still have death penality, USA still has a huge deal of homeless people, USA invades countries for oil.
USA is also losing more and more freedom in the name of so called terrorism.
I am sure 99% of all x86 pcs has at least some components made in China.
I know this is off topic, but millions of people in the USA go about their daily life, oblivious to the fact that, there are *STILL* area's of New Orleans that are deserted and uninhabited because of the devastation of Katrina.
Just look at the American Road Trip that Topgear did last year.
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Nothing against China*, but if you're lookong for some alternative with Amiga expertise just try www.dcecom.de. They have the knowledge, the maschines and the experience - at their faclities the GREX, PuP-devices (after P5 went bust), Pegasos I & II, SX-32, Efika, etc. have been produced.
Maybe it's worth contacting them.
*) really not! I have mostly good experiences with Chinese products (well, there's also crap between, but there's also crap made elsewhere of course) and ppl.
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Getting closer here, vendor had truoble securing all parts this is supposedly resolved. WE shall see.
By the way. Have a 2.4 gig amiga sofware collection and I ran Deluxe Paint 3 on the Minimig, worked quite nicely, only thing no way to save my work...LOL! Did a 60 second 320X400 64 color anim.
I thought the OCS used the non Extra Half Brite denise?
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Crom00 wrote:
Getting closer here, vendor had truoble securing all parts this is supposedly resolved. WE shall see.
By the way. Have a 2.4 gig amiga sofware collection and I ran Deluxe Paint 3 on the Minimig, worked quite nicely, only thing no way to save my work...LOL! Did a 60 second 320X400 64 color anim.
I thought the OCS used the non Extra Half Brite denise?
Why couldn't you save off ?, surely you can save off to where you loaded Dpaint from ? It should show up as a normal drive ?
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There is no write function in the PIC18 firmware whatsoever. I read it..
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freqmax wrote:
There is no write function in the PIC18 firmware whatsoever. I read it..
Games like Cinemawares Basektball have issues since a save disk is required and the disc is write protected.
Other notes about the MiniM.
Uses Sega Genesis controllers quite well like an Amiga.
Using an off the shelf optical mouse and keyboard beats the Old school ball mouse anyday.
Some sprite issues in games like Lionheart.
Looks better on 4:3 VGA than 16:9 widescreen 22" monitor due to the stretched pixels. All games work without issues except where noted.
Games I have tested:
Pinball Fanstasis
Moonstone
Turrican
Flashback
Anotherworld
Super Methane Bros
Elfmania
Body Blows
Zeeowolf
Awesome
Lemmings
ProjectX
Startdust (main ship doesn't show. sprite error)
Lionheart (main character doesn't show, sprite error)
Super Frog (main character doesn't show, sprite error)
R-Type2
Deluxe Paint 3
Barbarian 2
Shadow of the Beast
Shadow of the Beast 3 (main character doesn't show, sprite error)
Ruff & Tumbe (stops at loading screen)
Golden Axe
Battle Squadron
and more I can't remember right now...
Biggest upset was Ruff & Tumble as that's a great game to demo the MiniM.
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I thought the OCS used the non Extra Half Brite denise?
Only the very first US A1000's lacked EHB.
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Crom00 wrote:
Getting closer here, vendor had truoble securing all parts this is supposedly resolved. WE shall see.
Got any dates/schedule available yet?
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Whether or not they can secure parts and come back with reasonable terms dictates everything at this point. Thanks to all those that have listed suppliers and helped out like WhiteB.
Until then I'm testing the MiniM and have a love hate relationship with it. I put it away becuase I spend too much time tinkering with it, then take it out to show folks who stop by, then pack it up again.
If all goes well in a short while some of you will develop the same problem LOL!
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Crom00 wrote:
Games like Cinemawares Basektball have issues since a save disk is required and the disc is write protected.
Other notes about the MiniM.
Uses Sega Genesis controllers quite well like an Amiga.
Using an off the shelf optical mouse and keyboard beats the Old school ball mouse anyday.
Some sprite issues in games like Lionheart.
Looks better on 4:3 VGA than 16:9 widescreen 22" monitor due to the stretched pixels. All games work without issues except where noted.
Thanks for that list and bug report.
I'm sure that the people with assembles Minimigs and the ability are already working on the ability to save data (and hopfully a hard drive file and possibly multiple floppy support).
Do you have "Menace"? I loved that sidesways scroller and the music was great. Please test it if you have it and let me know if it works. Would "Xenon 2 - Megablast" work on OCS?
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Crom00 wrote:If all goes well in a short while some of you will develop the same problem LOL!
Hopefully in time for Xmas. :-D
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Tomas wrote:
@terminator4
Maybe you should also look at the faults of your own country?
USA still tortures people, USA still have death penality, USA still has a huge deal of homeless people, USA invades countries for oil.
USA is also losing more and more freedom in the name of so called terrorism.
I am sure 99% of all x86 pcs has at least some components made in China.
The AmigaONE was a failure simple because of bad choice of chipset. Take for example the via 686b chipset... It had already proven to have alot of bugs on the x86 platforms, but still they choose it? It surely had nothing to do with those who assembled the board.
And who the heck could afford a minimig if it was produced here in the west? It just simply is not possible, unless you do a production run of tens of thousand boards, which is not possible in the amiga world.
I had to look back a page to see what prompted this attack on the USA by Thomas. I am glad I did not complete my first attempt at a rebuttal to his post above before reading terminator4's messages (which I don't agree with, except for a few points, but I don't think that political crap belongs in this thread). People in the USA are not all like terminator4, or George Bush. It saddens me to see that so many other people from other countries dislike US citizens now, and think we are all like George Bush, or that we approve of the way in which the war in Iraq was started.
I could write much more in defense of the majority of US citizens, but this is not the time or place for such a long rebuttal.
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freqmax wrote:
There is no write function in the PIC18 firmware whatsoever. I read it..
Does this include writing to a RAM_Disk? I know that won't help with saving games, unless the Minimig is left ON and the user just wants to shut down a game to do something else on the Minimig, and then return to the game without rebooting.
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@amigadave:
Writing to ram disc is likely to work. It's writing to external storage that is a dead end.
And this is because the amiga implementation will run kickstart (or whatever) that will itself take care and execute any write operation to ram (wich is r/w).
@Crom00:
"Looks better on 4:3 VGA than 16:9 widescreen 22" monitor due to the stretched pixels."
Maybe there should be a video mode where side borders are added such that the aspect ratio become correct. Infact the extra space could be used for an permanent OSD.
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Darrin wrote:
Do you have "Menace"? I loved that sidesways scroller and the music was great. Please test it if you have it and let me know if it works. Would "Xenon 2 - Megablast" work on OCS?
Dennis is adding Multiple ADF support, I know that for DEFINITE.
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Is anyone sure that minimig assembled in USA will no consist of china made parts? I'm not sure, f.ex. 68k is made there...
Just not that right way to boycott chinees made goods.
And materials for bag (www.billingham.co.uk) are not made in the same place?
Ok, But I believe that minimig for 100-150 USD is acceptible for me...
Cheers
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whiteb wrote:
Dennis is adding Multiple ADF support, I know that for DEFINITE.
I hope he is adding hard file support.... that has to be high on the list of what can be done with minimig v1.1 without any hardware changes.
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Writing to an mmc card is not so hard, but there are problem with kickstart - it doesn't know abou mmc nothing. maybe there is a way to code an driver for that purpose? But how to access mmc from amiga?
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whiteb wrote:
Dennis is adding Multiple ADF support, I know that for DEFINITE.
Thank you for letting me know that. Great news. :-D
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acidrain wrote:
Writing to an mmc card is not so hard, but there are problem with kickstart - it doesn't know abou mmc nothing. maybe there is a way to code an driver for that purpose? But how to access mmc from amiga?
I didn't think that would be a problem. I assumed that there was something in place to make the Amiga think that the ADF selected was a real floppy (df0), so it's not the "Amiga" side of the logic that's the problem, but rather the software that "emulates" a "floppy" on the MMC which needs to be expanded to support a write function. Correct? :-?
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If minimig hardware was available, it would be relatively easy to modify the FPGA and PIC code to emulate an IDE hard drive, (probably through a HDF file at first), just as it does now with a ADF image.
With lack of MiniMig hardware, there is no real incentive to develop for it.
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alexh wrote:
If minimig hardware was available, it would be relatively easy to modify the FPGA and PIC code to emulate an IDE hard drive, (probably through a HDF file at first), just as it does now with a ADF image.
With lack of MiniMig hardware, there is no real incentive to develop for it.
Let's just keep our fingers crossed that Crom comes up trumps.
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Darrin wrote:
I didn't think that would be a problem. I assumed that there was something in place to make the Amiga think that the ADF selected was a real floppy (df0), so it's not the "Amiga" side of the logic that's the problem, but rather the software that "emulates" a "floppy" on the MMC which needs to be expanded to support a write function. Correct? :-?
Well, i am not an authority in this field, but the kickstart rom's already recognize an ADF being inserted, and will auto boot from the ADF, if the boot block on the ADF allows it, so it definitely sounds like code on the pic job. What needs to be investigated, is that the current code, is around 37KB already, is there enough room left on the PIC ?
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whiteb wrote:
Darrin wrote:
I didn't think that would be a problem. I assumed that there was something in place to make the Amiga think that the ADF selected was a real floppy (df0), so it's not the "Amiga" side of the logic that's the problem, but rather the software that "emulates" a "floppy" on the MMC which needs to be expanded to support a write function. Correct? :-?
Well, i am not an authority in this field, but the kickstart rom's already recognize an ADF being inserted, and will auto boot from the ADF, if the boot block on the ADF allows it, so it definitely sounds like code on the pic job. What needs to be investigated, is that the current code, is around 37KB already, is there enough room left on the PIC ?
Not having a working MiniMig yet to test, what happens when the adf of a Workbench disk is selected? Can writes to RAM then be performed? Does a disk icon for the Workbench adf disk show up and when opened does it show remaining space up to the Amiga floppy capacity of 880kb? Maybe these are stupid and uninformed questions, but please educate me.
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Any update Crom? Will we see prototypes/beta machines before xmas?
Cheers
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Not before Christmas unfortunately.
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Crom00 wrote:
Not before Christmas unfortunately.
Any other news to keep us going?
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I have found this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Minimig-v1-1-PCB-Bare-Gold-finish-Nusim_W0QQitemZ290183063173QQihZ019QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#paymentmethods
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acidrain wrote:
I have found this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Minimig-v1-1-PCB-Bare-Gold-finish-Nusim_W0QQitemZ290183063173QQihZ019QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#paymentmethods
Cheers for that mate but Nusim and his bare minimig boards are well known around here. There was a front page news item about them not so long back.
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Got back info today but factory although experienced will only do mass numbers after all. +(1000) ARGHH! Agent is moving to quotes with factories that do smaller quantities and stressing the conecpt of small quantities.
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Crom00 wrote:
Got back info today but factory although experienced will only do mass numbers after all. +(1000) ARGHH! Agent is moving to quotes with factories that do smaller quantities and stressing the conecpt of small quantities.
Not wanting to teach grandma to suck eggs but wouldn't that have been an important factor when choosing who to get quotes from in the first place?
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Sure was clear about all that... but I can't balme them for wanting larger quantities, after all they're running a business where volume pricing is a key factor.
Maybee we should start chuch of "MiniMig" where we take collections, and make low cost MiniMIG boards for our members. Amen!
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Crom00 wrote:
Sure was clear about all that... but I can't balme them for wanting larger quantities, after all they're running a business where volume pricing is a key factor.
Maybee we should start chuch of "MiniMig" where we take collections, and make low cost MiniMIG boards for our members. Amen!
Whatever it takes for me to get a minimig! :lol:
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I feel your pain. Imagine the horror of having one and having to box it up becuase you're not getting any other work done!
Welcome to hell...I even sold my immaculate A1200 becuase I started tinkerig with that again too. Friggin addictive.
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x122/Crom00/minimigFOREVER.jpg)
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Any update?
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Everyones interested in doing mass numbers... 10k or more.
These are factories that do popular kids learning computers. Those are all FPGA based solutions.
That so far is the problem. The backup plan is moving on to factories more receptive to doing small numbers we shall see... quite a challenge.
Also preparing for trade shows so have been quite busy.
Staying upbeat about this but this is the nature of the business. Will advise further.
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Crom00 wrote:
after all they're running a business where volume pricing is a key factor.
Maybe I'm being dumb here... if Minimigs are only profitable for these factories in 1000+ volumes, why don't they sell us the price to produce 100+ units? If potential Minimig owners are still prepared to pay the higher unit price then everyone wins, right?
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Got back info today but factory although experienced will only do mass numbers after all. +(1000) ARGHH! Agent is moving to quotes with factories that do smaller quantities and stressing the concept of small quantities.
Out of curiosity, what kind of prices are they in the 1000 unit quantities?
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The sad thing is, 1000 units is moveable, but who has a spare (for example) $50,000 - $100,000 to initiate the production run?
If the batch was smaller and in the $5,000 - $10,000 range and being produced by a trustworthy source, then I might be willing to chip in 10-20% of the production cost on the understanding that I get my money back when the boards are sold.
I'm sure a run of 100 produced and "advertised" via a slashdot article would produce enough interest to sell all of them on eBay using "buy-it-now" quite quickly.
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Darrin wrote:
The sad thing is, 1000 units is moveable, but who has a spare (for example) $50,000 - $100,000 to initiate the production run?
If the batch was smaller and in the $5,000 - $10,000 range and being produced by a trustworthy source, then I might be willing to chip in 10-20% of the production cost on the understanding that I get my money back when the boards are sold.
I'm sure a run of 100 produced and "advertised" via a slashdot article would produce enough interest to sell all of them on eBay using "buy-it-now" quite quickly.
Totally agree with that, but its all about the initial risk.
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tonyyeb wrote:
Totally agree with that, but its all about the initial risk.
I'm willing to share the risk of the production run not selling out, but I'm not prepared to risk handing over $1000 or more and then having the person vanish without a trace. I already have a $50 coupon for OS4/AmigaOne and an "IOU $50 off the price of an Amiga on a PCI card".
So, let's say a run of 100 boards was made and several people chipped in $1000 each for it to happen. If only 50% of the boards sold then I could live with only getting $500 back and a Minimig board (with the possibility that some more might be repaid over time of the remaining stock sold).
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@Crom00
Two questions:
1. What quotes have you had for 1000+ production runs?
2. Would subsequent runs be cheaper?
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HenryCase wrote:
@Crom00
Two questions:
1. What quotes have you had for 1000+ production runs?
2. Would subsequent runs be cheaper?
In all seriousness, I doubt Crom will wait to let us know the cost of the production run as he'll want to be able to make a bit of money for his efforts and will need to cover s&h and possible "dead boards".
If he was to admit that 100 boards cost $10,000 (for example) and there was a $1000 tool-up charge then people would be demand him to sell them for $110 each and a few would insult him for selling for anything more.
I certainly wouldn't admit the price and simply anounce a retail cost per unit on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
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Problem is that the final cost depends on many factors. Not just first cost on manufacturing.
Also, prices can vary from month to month (even in toys).
For example, I can agree to a price... then said factory gets an order for 100,000 units from another customer. They then have to change prices moving forward to justify working with our small numbers.
Oh and of course, a project like this will be run like a business, not a charity. With that said, having somekind of contributtion to AROS rom replacement bounty makes total sense.
In the end you can't please everyone. Having done toy projects it's funny to see folks complain about retail prices at release.
They then refuse to purchase said item at full retail price. They hem and haw on message boards, write you letters.Call your office.
They wait until the item goes on closeout. Then drive 20 miles to every mass retailer to pickup mutiple copies of the once $30 item for just $9.99.
They keep one or two and resell the other 10 on ebay at a premium.
They're even bold enough to post on your website and offer the items to mesage board members... at a premium price of course. LOL!
Meanwhile the toy manufaturer takes a $100,000+ bath on a markdwon penalty from retailers.
No thanks!
Having a specialty product at a Hobbyist price avoids such a mess.
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Darrin wrote:
I certainly wouldn't admit the price and simply anounce a retail cost per unit on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.
Fair point.
Crom00 wrote:
Problem is that the final cost depends on many factors. Not just first cost on manufacturing.
Also, prices can vary from month to month (even in toys).
Two more good points.
Crom00, can you at least give us a ball park retail figure to gauge interest (using the figures from the companies you've had offers from so far, natch)?
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HenryCase wrote:
Crom00, can you at least give us a ball park retail figure to gauge interest (using the figures from the companies you've had offers from so far, natch)?
Yeah what would be the retail price for the item at the current costings?
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I think $100-150 would be entirely reasonable for us Amiga Fans.
When eventually done like the Commodore 64 DTV in massive :idea: quantities I think something like $59.95-79.95 would be right. :-D
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unknown1 wrote:
I think $100-150 would be entirely reasonable for us Amiga Fans.
When eventually done like the Commodore 64 DTV in massive :idea: quantities I think something like $59.95-79.95 would be right. :-D
Unknown1, those prices would be very reasonable, but it looks like we may have to pay more than you estimate.
Crom00, please give us an estimate for the retail figure to stop the price speculation. Please!!!
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Handing out a price now is not fair to me, the factory or the future purchasers becuase:
Curent price is not 100% final.
When things are ready an announcement will be made here.
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Okay, well, please keep us up to date with any progress you make.
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Will do guys, will keep you informed. Thanks for the contiuned interest and saint-like patience.
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Hi Crom. Hope you had a good holiday. Will you be continuing your search to have Minimigs built with the news that ACube are going to be doing the same with a "Mid January" release?
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Now that Acube is releasing the boards in what I assume is large numbers this project is on hold. For ten units to start it doesn't make sense for me right now.
The only way I will re-examine this situation is if Acube flake out (don't think that's going to happen though).
Matching the $200 usd approximate price tage requires super low margins. It becomes more a labor of love than a business.
For the record our unit would have shipped with a power supply, memory card, and the board as Mini-Mig is finicky about those parts exta parts. I would imagine Acube will get more than a few returns from greenhorns that use the wrong power supply, and memory card.
But as most Amiga manufacturers will agree at this point it's not about getting rich.
Hats off to Acube!
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If ACube does flake out I'll talk to my boss to see about doing it ourselves, ok?
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Crom00 wrote:
I would imagine Acube will get more than a few returns from greenhorns that use the wrong power supply, and memory card.
I think ACube will be sensible enough to sell the Minimigs with a PSU. I hope they will anyway!
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I would imagine Acube will get more than a few returns from greenhorns that use the wrong power supply
I believe that's why Illuwatar has changed the powersupply in his mini-itx Minimig (http://web.comhem.se/illuwatar/project_pages/minimig/minimig.htm) design. He has some more clever improvements and I can't wait to see the next revision of his board :-D