Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: whiteb on September 20, 2007, 10:09:23 AM
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Hi all,
I am currently doing some sums and stuff for a proposed production run.
Now, as I am located in Melbourne (Australia), I am searching for the member here that also lives in Melbourne, who was Interested in a Minimig but had Surface mount skills. He did state that in a post, but I cannot find the Damned post. (Can you contact me dude, if you remember who you are ?)
I initially wanted to just do one for myself, but if i do a MAJOR run, i can get a *SIGNIFICANT* discount.
I was thinking of running off say 50 1.1 units, 25 Fully made up with *ALL* components (Currently costing up, and if the dude in melbourne contacts me, thats for PCB and components soldered), and 25 bare boards.
I suggested 25 boards populated, as that is about my limit I can go with my finances and ordering the FPGA etc to populate the boards.
I have to admit I am not a person who can solder (american "SODDER") surface mount components, but can do through hole quite fine.
Maybe if Demand is bigger, I might increase to a larger Bare PCB run. I appreciate Xennep's position, but if the demand is there, maybe a 100, or 200 production run.
Remember, Numbers, more I can stack up in one order, the BIGGER discount I can get.
So get filling up this thread, and I will attempt to try to keep a log of who, and how many.
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Aha.... A potential source of Minimigs from this end of the world!
Depending on price, I'd probably be interested in one or two...
Good luck, hope you do manage to produce some!
- Ali
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Well, If I can get a PCB run to about 100 Pieces, I can get a Bare PCB for about 5 Euro's, instead of about 60 Euro *EACH*.
Going from 100 to 200, the cost per piece drops again.
We also get a choice in the run, for the Silkscreen (The Resin layer that protects the traces), of Dennis's Green
red
Yellow (Mellow Yellow :>)
Black
Blue
white
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Hello,
I'm sure its been explained before but...
What other skills/tools are required to get this project off the ground?
FPGA needs to be flashed correct?
How is this accomplished, place a 1.3 rom on it?
Do I need a university degree?
I would be interested in an assembled unit, assuming no rocket science is required to complete the job.
Seems like a very cool project with lots of interested people!
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I'm on the other side of the globe but count me in for one. No wait, make that 2 or three. I'd like to do different case mods with them :-)
As for the other question stated above: what exactly needs to be done after the board has been completely assembled? e.g. Does the FPGA still need to be programmed, and how can that be done?
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I will be intestered in a complete built minimig system depending on the price! Is it possible for less than GPB£50 ?
How much will just the board cost?
Please PM me!!
Good luck with the project!
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Rough Figures so far are aiming at the PCB, Ram, FPGA, CPU, Pic microprogrammer etc, all the Surface mount chips is currently aiming at around the 45 quid mark, about AU$100.
Thats not including the Connectors and stuff. And thats with a bulk purchase quantity of 25 of each of the above components. Thats also just the Board with Components at cost with the Bulk discounts applied.
PS2 connectors about $2 each, VGA Right Angle Dsub is about $10.
RS232 Dsub is about $4
Joystick ports are about $8 each
Havent yet costed the MMC connector.
PCB Only, is looking (if the quote figures are correct) possibly as low as 5 Euro (Plus postage) (*IF* i can get the bulk numbers). As I have explained previously in PM to someone, I will not go ahead and order 200 Pieces, if 150 of them sit in the cupboard gathering dust. (And that is what is stopping other people doing production runs). one single board at $60 is *CHEAPER* to one person than $500 sitting in the cupboard.
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thanos wrote:
Hello,
I'm sure its been explained before but...
What other skills/tools are required to get this project off the ground?
FPGA needs to be flashed correct?
How is this accomplished, place a 1.3 rom on it?
Do I need a university degree?
I would be interested in an assembled unit, assuming no rocket science is required to complete the job.
Seems like a very cool project with lots of interested people!
The way it works, is when minimig boots, the PIC microprogrammer, accesses the MMC, and reads the core, and loads the Core into FPGA, The core is fired up and loads the Kickstart (Like any other amiga)into Ram. Just a normal Kickstart is needed. (Which, unless you want me to bundle a kickstart license into the cost, is a WHOLE new Legal minefield). You can "Dump" a kickstart from an Amiga the same as you would for WinUae. (unless you have Amiga Forever, where you have already purchased a copy of the Kickstart images).
The core and stuff is stored on the MMC, along with the ADF's of the games.
Surface mount soldering is *ALOT* more difficult than Through Hole Soldering (Which I can do).
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I want a pre-assembled, pre-soldered, everything complete minimig!
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Everblue wrote:
I want a pre-assembled, pre-soldered, everything complete minimig!
Me too. If it comes assembled and works out at AU$100-$150 or so, put me down for one.
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Please put me down for a complete MiniMig if you do a production run Good luck!
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moto
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I would definitely be interested in a pre-assembled board.
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Hi!,
I have a PC shop in Kent (UK) called Geeko's and would be VERY happy to showcase a finished Minimig for all to see (well...all who can get to Kent!) and play on!
I specialise in a bit of 'retro' on the side and remain an Amiga nutter! (7 A1200's, 2 A600's, CDTV, 12 A500's and more on their way!!!!)
I would love to sell a 'finished' product (even only for a 'tiny' profit) and have looked at EFIKA and others.....the jury is out on those?
Something, small, neat, and sits under the TV, with access to the Amiga games libary???? WOW yes please!
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I'll take one, maybe two fully populated boards.
Good luck with the project!
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Well after looking at the chip specs, (Spartan) the pins are *EXTREMELY SMALL*, like a 0.3mm pin.
Unless I can find someone local to me who would be willing to do the soldering for like a board and parts to their own minimig, I am not going to undertake Populated boards.
And by the looks of it, people want populated boards, not Bare PCB. Knowing my luck, a $35 chip goes pop because I cannot see or fix a solder short. :(
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This (http://www.hack247.co.uk/2006/09/05/factory-grade-bga-soldering-on-the-cheap/) shows a few methods for working with SMP coponents. I use the "toaster oven" method myself.
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People will want populated boards. It's convenient. People want convenience. I have some soldering skills but I'd rather not attempt a surface mount. The battery hack and fixing a few dry joints are about as far as I'd want to go on an Amiga. I'd rather pay $100-$150 for a working board than have to risk destroying one trying to build it myself. Judging by the responses, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
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whiteb wrote:
The way it works, is when minimig boots, the PIC microprogrammer, accesses the MMC, and reads the core, and loads the Core into FPGA, The core is fired up and loads the Kickstart (Like any other amiga)into Ram.
The core and stuff is stored on the MMC, along with the ADF's of the games.
So you need a PIC programmer too. Have the binaries for the PIC and the other things that go on the SD card been posted, or do you need to get the compilers?
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downix wrote:
This (http://www.hack247.co.uk/2006/09/05/factory-grade-bga-soldering-on-the-cheap/) shows a few methods for working with SMP coponents. I use the "toaster oven" method myself.
Yeah I read about that, but I do not think the wife will be happy with me Hacking the Toaster oven.
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JimS wrote:
So you need a PIC programmer too. Have the binaries for the PIC and the other things that go on the SD card been posted, or do you need to get the compilers?
Dennis' Website.
http://home.hetnet.nl/~weeren001/
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Now, as I am located in Melbourne (Australia), I am searching for the member here that also lives in Melbourne, who was Interested in a Minimig but had Surface mount skills. He did state that in a post, but I cannot find the Damned post. (Can you contact me dude, if you remember who you are ?)
Would that be CodePoet?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31510
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I'd like a fully assembled board as well (I'm one of those that make soldering on a PCB look like it's done by a blind Gorilla with a blow-torch :-)). It shouldn't work out to be all to big money but I think I can justify up to about 100 euros, even willing to pay about 50% in advance...
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Why don't you do what Commodore did when they announced the Pet? (As written in 'On The Edge: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore')
That is, take the payment up front with the promise to deliver in 90 days, then use it to actually make the machine! According to the book, when they started taking orders, they only had a few prototypes and hadn't started production.
Seriously, I will be willing to pay (some) money up-front as a deposit. Ideally, I'd like one Minimig already built, and one board (so I can see if I am competent enought to build one myself!)
:-)
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I want a fully working MiniMig. I'd be willing to pay upto £80 inc P&P. I was on the original 10 list for Joel / Xeneep but have not heard anything since he said he was too busy to get them done.
Does anyone know a company that can do the PCB, mount the chips etc... and get ACTUAL prices for say 100, 200 or 300? Not a made up price or guessed price or "it will be £500+ each!"... ACTUAL prices.
Then if the price is reasonable or a price that people would pay, we could setup a deposit account (paypal or whatever) and people could order. When the total reaches the amount needed we order. If after 6 months the total isnt reached, everyone gets their money back. that way no one person has to lay out £2000 or whatever and also no one would loose their money.
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doghouse wrote:
That is, take the payment up front with the promise to deliver in 90 days, then use it to actually make the machine! According to the book, when they started taking orders, they only had a few prototypes and hadn't started production.
Seriously, I will be willing to pay (some) money up-front as a deposit. Ideally, I'd like one Minimig already built, and one board (so I can see if I am competent enought to build one myself!)
:-)
Great minds think alike!
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:-D
So, whiteb and others,
What do you all think?
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I'd pay up front to help get the ball rolling.
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Chubbyrain wrote:
I'd pay up front to help get the ball rolling.
We need prices first obviously. if it turns out to be £200+ then less people will want one i guess no matter how many people say "Ill pay a million pounds for one!!!!"
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Hello again.
So then as an 'end user' I would really only require a memory card with the appropriate rom and whatever games I would like to use?
Of course I may have misread the information on Denis' page...
If its really that simple and the price is within my budget I would also pay a deposit to help an individual get this project off the ground.
Ok, Business, not in the spirit of this project.
Sorry about my poor choice of words.
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or business get this project off the ground
I would wonder if actually making a "business" out of this might attract the ire of KMOS. Maybe it's better to keep it a "home brew" project.
Plaz
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i want a fully populated baby too!!
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I'll take one too please!
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Surface mount soldering is *ALOT* more difficult than Through Hole Soldering (Which I can do).
SM soldering not nearly as difficult as you think. In fact it usually takes less time to get reasonable at it. One common misconception is that you need special tools. BGA aside, all you need is a reasonable temperature controlled soldering iron. Good quality solder with a reasonably aggressive flux or a standalone flux. You don't need a fine point tip. In fact chisel tips are the most versatile.
Small components like Rs and Cs you just put a little solder on one pad. Then place the part on the pad using tweezers while heating the pad. Then solder the other side, and then come back and add a little more solder to the original pad.
The process is much quicker and easier than the though hole equivalent. And the results I have seen from beginners is better than that of Trough Hole.
When doing a fine pitch IC a big tip works the best. Instead of individually soldering each pin you drag a large amount of solder across the pins with the board held at an angle. Solder likes to stick together and likes to follow the heat. This approach is a bit messy but gives excellent joints roughly equivalent to a wave soldered board. I haven't seen this method written up too often. I can give more precise details if anyone is interested. I have taught a few people this method and most of them got a reasonable result on the first attempt (with the aid of solder wick for the last couple of pins).
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I don't like your chances of getting some one too hand solder up any real quantity of boards for a cheap price. I personally won't do it for less than AU$100 per board.
If the quantity was high enough I would consider doing it with production tools: pick and place machine, reflow oven, wave solder.
A company I used to work for has these machines sitting idle most of the time and I am fairly sure they would let me use them for a fee. Tooling (ie. solderpaste mask) would be around AU$600.
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I would like one too, but it depends on price a bit!
Best wait till you find someone to solder and can post a more accurate price!
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I would be willing to pay up-front to help fund a production run. I think this project needs the support of the community. (Plus I really really want one ;-) )
--
moto
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nBit7 wrote:
I don't like your chances of getting some one too hand solder up any real quantity of boards for a cheap price. I personally won't do it for less than AU$100 per board.
If the quantity was high enough I would consider doing it with production tools: pick and place machine, reflow oven, wave solder.
A company I used to work for has these machines sitting idle most of the time and I am fairly sure they would let me use them for a fee. Tooling (ie. solderpaste mask) would be around AU$600.
If you are serious then lets get this confirmed or get a price. Lets get this thing off the ground. We need firm prices first.
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If the price is right, count me in..
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If you are serious then lets get this confirmed or get a price. Lets get this thing off the ground. We need firm prices first.
I should have pointed out that I am unavailable to invest time till late November. It may take this long to get all the parts together.
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by spotUP on 2007/9/21 13:08:33
i want a fully populated baby too!!
_YOU_ don't get one :-D
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Yep, count me in too for a pre-assembled, pre-soldered, everything complete minimig. And I would gladly pay up front to get the party started! :-D
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Please put me down for 1 maybe 2 fully populated. Thanks, rick.
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Well there is DEFINATELY the Interest for a Fully pop run, but the FPGA is 3x3cm, with 52 pins a side. An electrical Engineer friend in perth (Other side of Australia, says the chance to Kapput a chip is high.. and i dont want that risk.
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Alright guys.......
You want costs........ (And I expect some of you will pass out).
a PCB, fully populated with *JUST* the surface mounted components, thats FPGA, Ram, CPU, Pic controller, Serial driver, 74HC4060,Capacitors and Resistors. component cost included (SUPPLIED) is US$105. Included is the AU$25 for someone here *PER BOARD* to professionally solder the components.
What remains (cost will be on top), is all the through hole stuff, all the connectors (PS2 x2, Video, RS232, Joystick ports, MMC, power, Reset button, and Menu button). But I suspect thats something a blind monkey can solder with a 25,000 volt welding unit. (Joke).
So those who wanted US$30 fully populated, i can only say LOL
Anyone not unconscious, Let me know.
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Guess I was not far off with my $150, which I still think is a good price to pay.
I'm still interested.
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whiteb wrote:
Alright guys.......
You want costs........ (And I expect some of you will pass out).
a PCB, fully populated with *JUST* the surface mounted components, thats FPGA, Ram, CPU, Pic controller, Serial driver, 74HC4060,Capacitors and Resistors. component cost included (SUPPLIED) is US$105. Included is the AU$25 for someone here *PER BOARD* to professionally solder the components.
What remains (cost will be on top), is all the through hole stuff, all the connectors (PS2 x2, Video, RS232, Joystick ports, MMC, power, Reset button, and Menu button). But I suspect thats something a blind monkey can solder with a 25,000 volt welding unit. (Joke).
So those who wanted US$30 fully populated, i can only say LOL
Anyone not unconscious, Let me know.
Hello? In my post i asked for the cost fot a company to do all the assembly, pcb manuf etc... Is this the cost for YOU to do it? If so then DUH! Of course it will be mega expensive.
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a PCB, fully populated with *JUST* the surface mounted components, thats FPGA, Ram, CPU, Pic controller, Serial driver, 74HC4060,Capacitors and Resistors. component cost included (SUPPLIED) is US$105. Included is the AU$25 for someone here *PER BOARD* to professionally solder the components.
If the qty is high enough I am willing to wave solder the TH stuff for a good price.
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nBit7 wrote:
If the qty is high enough I am willing to wave solder the TH stuff for a good price.
Wave soldering is not exactly Ideal for Surface mount (From memory), Okay for Through Hole. The solder wave would wash the components off, especially when you have a multiple (Dual) layer board, and the miniature size of the components in question. (SM Resistors, Transistors, IC's and Capacitors).
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tonyyeb wrote:
Hello? In my post i asked for the cost fot a company to do all the assembly, pcb manuf etc... Is this the cost for YOU to do it? If so then DUH! Of course it will be mega expensive.
Fine, I'll fold this project then, and leave it to getting a professional all in one run then.
I won't lose any sleep.
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http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31555
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Wave soldering is not exactly Ideal for Surface mount (From memory), Okay for Through Hole. The solder wave would wash the components off, especially when you have a multiple (Dual) layer board, and the miniature size of the components in question. (SM Resistors, Transistors, IC's and Capacitors).
To wave solder SM it is usual to glue the bottom side SM parts. However I would have suggested getting the boards first and fitting just the TH parts and wave solder. Then hand them on to the SM guy. Or get the SM guy to only fit the top side SM components and I would manually fit the few that are on the back side. Or modify the design to only have top parts.
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McVenco wrote:
I'm on the other side of the globe but count me in for one. No wait, make that 2 or three. I'd like to do different case mods with them :-)
As for the other question stated above: what exactly needs to be done after the board has been completely assembled? e.g. Does the FPGA still need to be programmed, and how can that be done?
Someone can correct me if im wrong here but i think the PIC should be programmed in a different device, and the FPGA should be programmed assembled on board through the serial port on the minimig? can someone confirm this.