Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Amiga Emulation => Topic started by: arnljot on August 19, 2007, 11:03:43 PM
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I have been back on the Amiga for about two monts now after an almost 10 year break. And to the amigas credit, it's like riding a bike... Everything is as it should be.
For one exception. Hardware.
I've realised that it'll take months, if not years before a dream amiga pops up on e-bay or the marketplaces.
So UAE to the rescue!
So I'm currently pondering the following alternatives:
(A) Minimal XP by BartPE with WinUAE (PEBuilder Home (http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/))
(B) Minimal XP by nLite with WinUAE (nLite Home (http://www.nliteos.com/index.html))
(C) Minimal XP by RyanVM with WinUAE (RyanVM Home (http://www.ryanvm.net/msfn/))
(D) Minimal XP, *custom* (tips... (http://blog.nathancoad.com/?item=creating-a-minimal-xp-install))
(E) Linux with E-UAE
(F) Amithlon (amiga on a small linux)
(G) AmigaXL (amiga on QNX)
To my knowledge there are no examples of options A to D.
Linux Amiga:
Fraccy aka Amir Ansari: X-Amiga 'How-To' (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27682)
It uses a minimal Gentoo with DirectFB
KXLite: Product page (http://www.amigaforever.com/kxlight/)(on installing... :) (http://www.amigaforever.com/kxlight/installation/))
It's based on knoppix.
Amithlon:
Lots of guides on the net.
One new and updated on EAB (http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=351152), it includes a link to the old (big) PDF
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Requirements:
* (SUP1) It has to run on my hardware. Geforce, Pentium4
* (USE1) Easy to configure and swap setups
* (USE2) Fast boot, I loved my amiga which booted in less than 30s
* (SUP2) USB (drives) and joystick support (Logitech and Saitek)
* (SUP3) Support for Catwasel mk-iv (I plan on buying)
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The Contenders:
Where they shine:
A to D: Top score on all support issues and USE1
E: Top score on USE2, probably good score on SUP1 and SUP2
F: Top score on USE2
Where they suck:
A to D: Weak on USE2 (assumption comparable to linux alternatives)
E: USE1, E-UAE is still compareably new.
F: SUP1&2, probably USE1 too.
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Now, what do you think folks?
Since I've boutght AmigaForever2006 with KXLite (waiting for media to arrive in the post), and more proficient in XP I think I'll go the minXP way. Also, I don't think I can live without F12 in WinUAE....
What are your experiences?
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UAE on a miniXP setup is still an XP setup, therefore it requires XP and that's a commercial product.Why use something you have to pay for? With Linux this is not an issue.
That alone would decide it for me.
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But, WinUAE is the most advanced of the Amiga emulations. If you've got XP, using WinUAE is probably the best.
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In my case, i have used a modded Win server 2003 install, it worked like a charm!
I used server 2003, because it reported the fastest booting time on my PC compared to win2k and winxp.
I used nLite to remove almost all components, to keep my 2003 server os as light as possible.
I even hacked the windows bootup progressbar screen, i used my own 16 colors AMIGA screen. This hack was accomplished with a windows tool called resource hacker.
So i got a fast booting WinUAE enviroment where i removed all possible signs of Windows propaganda!
My setup was no great deal, in fact, it was a very old scrap PC i had (Pent 3 600, 128mb, 2mb gfx card).
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Ive had WinUAE and UAE running on a dual boot Win2K/Kubuntu system and IMO, WinUAE is by far the more complete package. UAE feels more like a proof-of-concept than a fully functional package.
I'd go for a minimal XP system myself.
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Gulliver wrote:
I used server 2003, because it reported the fastest booting time on my PC compared to win2k and winxp.
I've got licenced access to the MSDN developer package, so 2003 is an alternative for me too.
What kind of boot times did you achieve?
@all
Like it's been pointed out. I have paid for the MS stack of OS's so I can consider it.
Also WinUAE is a superrior product. But if I wanted a static install, ie just emulating one amiga and make a setup that was aimed at redistribution I'd consider more carefully.
But my UAE needs are of the nostalig variety. I want to play Pinball Dreams, Megalomaniac, Populous, Putty, Pusover, SuperFrog, Operation Stealth, Cruise For a Corpse.... etc etc...
I have a lot of gear at home, a few laptops, three desktops, a mini and a ps3.
The only times that I really enjoy myself and have a genuine good time is when I play Detroit AGA or Syndicate on my A500 which recently fell into my hands, or old classic titles downloaded from the PS3 store or UAE on my PSP...
Just today I was at two major game outlets to see if I could trick myself into "spur of the moment" purchases for my PS3, but I could not...
So I have found that I need more than just one Amiga.
Of course I could edit the UAE settings file on WinUAE and use them on E-UAE, but that doesn't seem optimal to me.
Or I could install X11 on the box, and use a 3rd party tool. But I find X11 to bloat and add unwanted clutter to a linux install.
Thats what piqued me with the X Amiga based setup on gentoo and directfb. It seemed like no X, which is music to my ears...
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@arnljot
Remember i mentioned my setup was not really good:
Pentium 3 600mhz
128mb ram
2mb gfx card (intel based)
the pc is a compaq deskpro sff 600 or something like that
it came with an old 7GB harddisk and a 2.5 inches 20x cdrom.
I remember uptimes were less than a minute. Like 40 seconds since i pushed the power button. Take into account that almost 15 seconds are lost in the bootup phases due to the nature of this hardware and the disgusting bootlogo that Compaq wanted you to see.
Win server 2003 was the better choice back then. You could try your setup without doing a "real" installation by using MS VirtualPC. I tested several nLite modded builds that way and when things got to the way i wanted i did the real install!
WinUAE is the easiest solution!
Amithlon is difficult and sometimes incompatible at best!
Linux UAE is like Linux has always been; an OS that requires to much knowledge and too much effort to get you going. Not for casual users and does not suport all hardware!
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I get decent results on my Win2K box. (P3/866 256MB RAM). I can have bittorrent running in the BG and STILL get the equivalent of a 100 MHz (according the Sysinfo) 68040...
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Gulliver wrote:
@arnljot
I remember uptimes were less than a minute. Like 40 seconds since i pushed the power button. Take into account that almost 15 seconds are lost in the bootup phases due to the nature of this hardware and the disgusting bootlogo that Compaq wanted you to see.
I suppose you mean a boot time of 40 secs. Now thats nice
I'm not planning on using Virtual PC like you suggested, but rather VMWare, but that shouldn't make any difference, should it?
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No it shouldnt make any difference to VMWare. But remember the hardware it will emulate will not be exactly the same as the one you will afterwards install for real!
On a sidenote i remember when using nLite i removed all drivers, because they come in packs(so they occuppy more space and resources), and slipstreamed only the specific drivers that my pc required.
How?
Simple, i first did a real server 2003 full install on my pc. Used a tool called doubledrivers, that backs up your currently used hardware drivers that i included in my modded server 2003 WinUAe setup.
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Gulliver wrote:
Simple, i first did a real server 2003 full install on my pc. Used a tool called doubledrivers, that backs up your currently used hardware drivers that i included in my modded server 2003 WinUAe setup.
Ah, Smart!
Gulliver wrote:
No it shouldnt make any difference to VMWare. But remember the hardware it will emulate will not be exactly the same as the one you will afterwards install for real!
**EDIT**
BTW, I cannot find the tool using google. Is it retired or something?
Oh, so VPC em ulates what you got. And VMWare emulates something else?
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The X-Amiga installer CD is nearly finished, if you can wait a bit longer. (There's a website too...)
The installer only asks for simple things: CPU, graphics card, etc. The Linux installation is taken care of automatically. It now uses tiny X (much smaller than xorg-x11) rather than DirectFB.
I've found booting is incredibly fast - half the time is taken up with the BIOS hardware check.
If you prefer the Windows route, you could try http://www.litepc.com/98lite.html
I've got it, it works well - but I no longer have any Windows boxes ;-)
I'll announce X-Amiga properly as soon as it's finished. Don't want to be accused of anything 'vapour'-related!
Amir
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Thanx Amir, I have a AMD 1600 doing very little at present and I refuse to pay Microsoft for the sake of booting to Amiga OS. I look forward to X-Amiga, good luck with the project. :pint:
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How about AROS? I've been wanting to dedicate a machine to it... I believe WinUAE has been ported to it.
I haven't tried it yet though (WinUAE on Aros)
But think you'd have a modern Amiga, emulating an old amiga.
Sort of fun.
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You missunderstood me arnljot!
What i was trying to say is that emulated windows enviroment, no matter which one you use, will be good for testing the nLited windows, but that you should bare in mind that the hardware in any emulator will be most likely different from your real pc (eg.: Nvidia chipset is not emulated!). I hope you understand it.
On the other hand there are other alternatives to VMWare and MS Virtual PC, have you heard of Virtual Box?
Surf to www.virtualbox.org its quite a nice emulator!
Anyway have fun!
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More Tips for WinUAE modded Windows 2000/XP/2003 with nLite:
1-From these nLite modded Windws OSes, 2003 has the fastest bootup time, XP has the second and win2k the third. But if you are using these OSes in low memory setups 128mb or less, you should consider the size of the OS memory footprint to make the most appropiate choice. Server 2003 requires 24mb ram minimum, XP will run with 20mb ram and i have tested win2k with 12mb ram!
2-All these OSes despite their different resulting size when their cd is modded to the extreme with nLite, will occupy aproximately 370mb to 400mb of disk space when installed!
Note. I once did a 378mb install of XP on my harddisk, when in normal systems it occupies at least 1100mb!
3-Disabling windows services will reduce performance penalties that these oses infringe by default to the user. But you should be carefull what you remove. You can do this either using nLite or after an install running the msconfig program
This is what i remembered i removed (remember some OSes dont have some of these services):
Alerter
Clipbook
Computer Browser
Fast User Switching
Human Interface Access Devices
Indexing Service (Slows the hard drive down)
Messenger
Net Logon (unnecessary unless networked on a Domain)
Netmeeting Remote Desktop Sharing (disabled for extra security)
Remote Desktop Help Session Manager (disabled for extra security)
Remote Procedure Call Locator
Remote Registry (disabled for extra security)
Routing & Remote Access (disabled for extra security)
Server
SSDP Discovery Service (this is for the utterly pointless "Universal P'n'P", & leaves TCP Port 5000 wide open)
TCP/IP NetBIOS Helper
Telnet (disabled for extra security)
Universal Plug and Play Device Host
Upload Manager
Windows Time
Wireless Zero Configuration (for wireless networks)
Workstation
4-Windos shutdown takes lot of precious time, much like 20 seconds in average. You can reduce this time by makin this tweak:
Go to regedit and change the key :
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Control\\WaitToKillServiceTimeout
I set mine to 0 ms and now i shutdown way fast. Experiment with the settings.
5 - Turn off System Restore on ALL drives and turn off Hibernate and remove the Hibernate file from the root ( C: ) ( file is 300mb+ ), if you didnt do that with nLite
6 - Remember to use the WinUAE settings in your favor. Change WinUAE priority, give it the highest you can and remember to disable the gui at startup, so that when you start WinUAE it boots directly into the emulated Amiga.
7 - CD autorun or auto play feature in windows is annoying for our goal of hiding the windows enviroment. Disable it! The settings for autoplay and cd recording can be tweaked by opening explorer or my computer, right click on the cd-rom drive, then click properties.
8 - One feature that I can do without is error reporting. Every time a program crashes I do not want to send a report to microsoft.
Open Control Panel
Click on Preformance and Maintenance.
Click on System.
Then click on the Advanced tab
Click on the error reporting button on the bottom of the windows.
Select Disable error reporting.
Click OK
Click OK
9 - By modifying the file boot.ini you can change the names of OS , how they appear in boot menu (i.e. You can change "Microsoft Windows XP" to "Amiga OS"). Additionally, you can change the amount of time the menu is displayed for and the default OS.
10-If you really want to push performance to the limits. Use Windows XP Embedded, which is a program made by Microsoft that works the other way round compared to nLite. You can choose the components that will be included for the OS build. You can create working XP builds that occupy much less resources. Deep knowledge of XP and WinUAE will help you build the ultimate WinUAE modded Windows. I warned you, it is not a task for the casual user, but if you get something done this way, it would be awesome. Please drop me a mail with your achievements if you go this route! :)
So if any of you have now gone this path of modifying Windows OS and hide its propaganda to use WinUAE much like a real Amiga please do dare to post your achievents and constraints!
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Fraccy wrote:
The X-Amiga installer CD is nearly finished, if you can wait a bit longer. (There's a website too...)
Very cool.
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@ Gulliver:
Sounds as complicated as Linux... You should write an installer! :-D
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@vic20owner
WinUAE has not been ported to AROS. WinUAE runs only on Windows.
AROS does have E-UAE, but it's far from WinUAE usability.
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It is not as comlicated as linux, the hints i was providing were for polishing to the extreme your WinUAE setup. For ordinary usage little or no tweaking is required!
On the other hand, following those tips will eventually allow you to build a setup for low end pc´s.
I installed a Winuae setup in a pc with 32mb ram. I could never master that with Linux. I have to declare i have nothing against Linux, it is that i couldn´t use UAE with it on low end pc´s.
For fast pc´s i must recommend that X-Amiga, linux based install. Why? Linux is free!
The story could be different if someone manages to create a resourceless (not the correct word, but will do), Linux install.
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@Piru
Keep it clean, people!! That means, everyone!
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@Fraccy,
The X-Amiga installer CD is nearly finished, if you can wait a bit longer. (There's a website too...)
Do you have a link to the website? :-)
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(A) Minimal XP by BartPE with WinUAE (PEBuilder Home (http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/))
(B) Minimal XP by nLite with WinUAE (nLite Home (http://www.nliteos.com/index.html))
(C) Minimal XP by RyanVM with WinUAE (RyanVM Home (http://www.ryanvm.net/msfn/))
(D) Minimal XP, *custom* (tips... (http://blog.nathancoad.com/?item=creating-a-minimal-xp-install))
(E) Linux with E-UAE
(F) Amithlon (amiga on a small linux)
(G) AmigaXL (amiga on QNX)
Another alternative is UAE-X for the XBox. It works well.
http://uaex.sourceforge.net/
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@spihunter
Not just yet - I'd like to finish everything first! Until it's finished, it's just 'vapour'...
Amir