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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / General => Topic started by: nicholas on August 16, 2007, 10:56:49 PM
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Excellent documentary (http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-768956312207897325&q=when+the+moors+ruled+europe&total=14&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0)
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From the 9th through the 12th centuries, the Islamic world was the world leader in scientific knowledge. So why is science in Muslim lands still stuck in the past? (http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2007/08/13/taner_edis/)
Because they've been too busy looking for the 100th name of Allah??
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Moors ruled europe? And I always thought they only reached out to spain and some countries north of mediterranian... :crazy:
So the muslims went to spain to "save" the people there? Lol, sure thing...
From the 9th through the 12th centuries, the Islamic world was the world leader in scientific knowledge. So why is science in Muslim lands still stuck in the past?
Because they've been too busy looking for the 100th name of Allah??
No thanks to islam, I suppose. In todays Iraq/Iran there have been cultures way older and more advanced than in any other places on earth.
They found what's believed to be on of the oldest cities in the world in Iran quite recently. Seems like it was older bigger and more advanced than anyone would thought was possible. Maybe their science development halted thanks to islam?
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Moors ruled europe? And I always thought they only reached out to spain and some countries north of mediterranian...
Not the best at reading comprehension I see.
From the 9th through the 12th centuries, the Islamic world was the world leader in scientific knowledge.
No thanks to islam, I suppose.
Nor the best at comprehending knowledge imparted on film either.
1. Learn to read.
2. Read some books on the subject you want to talk about.
3. Make informed comments on web forums.
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geez, we all know old habits don't die easily, right? There are still things that are done in the name of islam that orignates from pre-islamic religions/traditions, even if islam condems it, such as killing ones misbehaving wife or daughter in order to save the hounor of the family.
It could have been the same about the matter of science, for what I believe. Islam does not much to encourage science after all....
Another example are Jinns, that are orginally mythical creatures from pre-islamic arabia...
Is it so hard to understand what I mean huh?
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Still unable to read simple sentence I see.
Rhetorical question I know, but have you watched this documentary?
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I only watched some of it, it's too long to watch on a monitor. Does it matter? Islam might have brought universities to europe, but today it has nothing more to contribute in the further evolution of modern soceity...
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@SuperTurbo
I think SufiDhikr is trying to point out that you misread the title. It's "When the Moors ruled in Europe", not "When the Moors ruled Europe".
Pity they didn't finish what they started. We could have had your "modern society" half a millenium sooner.
Don't underestimate just how far behind we honestly were.
No thanks to islam, I suppose.
You suppose incorrectly. Still, looking at the muslim world to day, it's hard to blame you.
In todays Iraq/Iran there have been cultures way older and more advanced than in any other places on earth
True, and unlike Christendom at that time, Islam embraced the scientific knowledge of these cultures (and others) with gusto. What people tend to overlook is both how they advanced that knowledge further and how they made it available to the common masses.
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I think SufiDhikr is trying to point out that you misread the title. It's "When the Moors ruled in Europe", not "When the Moors ruled Europe".
Ouchies, my bad...
Pity they didn't finish what they started. We could have had your "modern society" half a millenium sooner.
Maybe, mabye not... perhaps even earlier, considering that the anicient greeks could have built machines, but didn't because they had slaves to do all the labour. The old chinese could perhaps have colonized europe if they suddenly hadn't stopped after making just a handful of colonies in southeast-asia... who knows?
True, and unlike Christendom at that time, Islam embraced the scientific knowledge of these cultures (and others) with gusto. What people tend to overlook is both how they advanced that knowledge further and how they made it available to the common masses
But what happened? Look at these countries today, which once held such great cultures... isn't it often because of that in countries ruled by islamic laws, freedom of speech and criticism is heavily reduced, thus halting development and creativity...
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AFAIK, the advanced culture in the middle east of the past could exist because those lands were back then much more fertile, far less desert-ish.
And when we look at medieval times in Europe, there were much famines, and thus, much more civil unrest.
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But what happened? Look at these countries today, which once held such great cultures... isn't it often because of that in countries ruled by islamic laws, freedom of speech and criticism is heavily reduced, thus halting development and creativity...
Fundamentalism. Islam's golden age was destroyed by several centuries of conflict that began pretty much with Pope Urban II's decision to wage a pogrom against the heathen muslims that had spread across the holy land, eg: "God Wills It!" (tm)
This move galvanized the various Christian groups northern Spain to begin eradicating those evil moorish beasts that had doubtlessly brutally converted their countrymen by the sword (a much loved fallacy, especially in Spain)
Anyway, to cut a long story short, enlightened scholarly types weren't much cop at fighting and in a demonstration of the "survival of the fittest" rule, the more zealous took their place. They weren't especially interested in the progressive view and once they had power, that was it.
To suggest, as you have, that Islam itself stands in the way of development and creativity is evidentally a fallacy. If it were true, no such culture could ever have arisen in the first place.
Do not judge any culture, society or religion by those that claim to represent it, they invariably don't.
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Karlos wrote:
But what happened? Look at these countries today, which once held such great cultures... isn't it often because of that in countries ruled by islamic laws, freedom of speech and criticism is heavily reduced, thus halting development and creativity...
Fundamentalism. Islam's golden age was destroyed by several centuries of conflict that began pretty much with Pope Urban II's decision to wage a pogrom against the heathen muslims that had spread across the holy land, eg: "God Wills It!" (tm)
From what I've read in history books, the crusades has had hardly any effect in the muslem world. At the time the west could inflict damage to the muslem world, it lost it's interest. Long has existed a little country Jerusalem and has been overlooked by the muslem world. They could have crushed it with ease, and with hardly any political consequences.
Colonization of the lands did have much more consequences, I think. Though the conservative, repressive interpretation of Islam began, AFAIK, in the 50s.
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From what I've read in history books, the crusades has had hardly any effect in the muslem world.
I know history is written by the victors, but I'm surprised by that conclusion. If said historians honestly believe that simultaneously getting their arse kicked by Christendom from the West and the Mongols from the East (many of whom later converted but not before extensive damage to eastern territories) had "little effect" on the rise of fundamentalist views and the subsequent decline of free thinking in the Islamic world, then their reasoning utterly escapes me.
While there were many complex factors that led to the decline of the "golden age", decadence, wars, fundamentalism, internal power struggles etc., as far as Moorish influence in Europe is concerned, look no further than the Crusades and the knock-on events, such as the Reconquista and Inquisition.
Regardless on one's opinion of Islam today, it is undeniable that the destruction of Al-Andalus was a loss for European Civilization. Entire volumes of work were destroyed, centuries of art, culture and learning obliterated. Thankfully some of their legacy remained to kickstart the reanissance.
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SuperTurbo wrote:
I only watched some of it, it's too long to watch on a monitor.
What is not discussed in "When The Moors ruled in Europe" is that the Caliphate of Córdoba and Spanish Muslims in general had diverged from a more fundamentalist, less tolerant Islamic culture. Unfortunately for them this meant that they were between Catholic Europe on one side, and the Muslim Almoravids in Africa, who had a fatwa to dethrone the Muslim Taifa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa) kingdom rulers.
El Cid is described incorrectly as a Christian fighter. In fact El Cid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Cid) was admired by both Moors and Christians, for his battle tactics, fighting ability and his loyalty, not for "defending the Christian faith" (he also fought as a Moorish mercenary).
History Reference:
Why were the Moors (Berbers) able to invade, conquer, and subdue nearly the entire Iberian Peninsula, when Christian forces outnumbered the Moors forces as much as 2.4 to 1, and yet Charles Martel was able to route the Moors from southern France in just one battle? (http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/medieval/articles/muslimhorde.aspx)
The Caliphate of Córdoba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph_of_Cordoba) divided by civil war, collapsed in 1031, and the splintered Islamic Iberia Taifa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taifa) kingdoms came to be ruled by the North African (Almoravid Dynasty) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid_dynasty), guided by a intolerant version of Islam.
The Reconquista (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista) the seven-and-a-half century long process by which Spanish Christians reconquered the Iberian peninsula.
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Karlos wrote:
From what I've read in history books, the crusades has had hardly any effect in the muslem world.
I know history is written by the victors, but I'm surprised by that conclusion. If said historians honestly believe that simultaneously getting their arse kicked by Christendom from the West and the Mongols from the East (many of whom later converted but not before extensive damage to eastern territories) had "little effect" on the rise of fundamentalist views and the subsequent decline of free thinking in the Islamic world, then their reasoning utterly escapes me.
It's not their conclusion, it's my conclusion.
The crusades were terribly bad organized. Especially in the beginning, it were just a horde of farmers who were being slaughtered or being enslaved.
Later expeditions were more successful, but to maintain influence in that area was too expensive and dangerous. (maintaining an army in a land far away while being at war with a couple of neighbours is not exactly the most ideal situation).
No, the impact of the crusades have been highly exaggerated in my eyes. The impact of the Monguls however is something I still have to learn about.
Still, the Ottoman empire was really something to reckon with, until the 20th century.
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Karlos wrote:
@SuperTurbo
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Pity they didn't finish what they started. We could have had your "modern society" half a millenium sooner.
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Yes.
And today we would live in the mediaeval times then, I guess from looking at the majority of the islamic countries today?
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Dandy wrote:
Yes.
And today we would live in the mediaeval times then, I guess from looking at the majority of the islamic countries today?
Why? The comparison between the current timeline and an alternate one is totally invalid. You cannot assume any such parallels after such a major divergence.
Instead, I suggest that had the moors have spread their model of civilisation across all of europe, there would be no real threat of conflict with Rome (its far more likely that a treatise would have been set up recognising Rome as the religious centre of catholicism) and therefore it's unlikely there would have been the subsequent 8 centuries of Christian-Islamic conflict over the middle eastern territories. No conflict, no support for fundamentalism.
Pan european Islam in the more tolerant, enlightended moorish mold would not have required military assistance from more fundamentalist groups such as the almoravids in order to try and protect itself from christian armies. Again, a safe, content population is not given to supporting extremist viewpoints.
Far from your assertion, I reckon that had their culture have flourished, we could be several centuries ahead of where we are now.
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Karlos wrote:
Dandy wrote:
Yes.
And today we would live in the mediaeval times then, I guess from looking at the majority of the islamic countries today?
Why?
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Simply because you assume that if Islam had spread all across Europe back then, we would have had a civilized Europe much earlier.
But I fail to see that Islam improved development of civilisations in the Islamic world since then - so why do you asssume that it would have been different if Islam had spread across Euorpe back then?
I`d say that`s at least a very optimistic assumption!
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But I fail to see that Islam improved development of civilisations in the Islamic world since then - so why do you asssume that it would have been different if Islam had spread across Euorpe back then?
I agree that existing societies don't reflect that view. However, did you not read any of the text of my post or check any of the articles about the peak of Moorish influence in Europe?
I can see no reason to assume that such a culture would not have continued to excel if it had been allowed to do so. It's a perfectly simple extrapolation that had this culture survived to usurp the existing ones within europe and the ensuing conflict with Catholicism not occured (at least not on the scale and duration of the crusades) there would have been no real support for the sorts of extremists that gained the upper hand during that time.
In my opinion, no existing muslim culture in the world today can claim to be remotely like that which existed during the peak of Islam's "golden age" simply because they've lost the inquisitiveness and ambition for intellectual advancement that the earlier civilisation had. That's a direct consequence of a change in motivation brought about by centuries of pointless conflict.
That's not a reflection on Islam, that's just a reflection on people.
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Karlos wrote:
But I fail to see that Islam improved development of civilisations in the Islamic world since then - so why do you asssume that it would have been different if Islam had spread across Euorpe back then?
I agree that existing societies don't reflect that view.
O.K. ...
Karlos wrote:
However, did you not read any of the text of my post or check any of the articles about the peak of Moorish influence in Europe?
Of course I did...
Karlos wrote:
I can see no reason to assume that such a culture would not have continued to excel if it had been allowed to do so. It's a perfectly simple extrapolation that had this culture survived to usurp the existing ones within europe
And exactly here I see the crux of the matter.
I can't recall one single event in history where an intruding culture has been welcomed by the original culture.
I don't know of any culture that resistance-less adopted the culture of the intruders.
E.g. Germany has been invaded many times in the past - but none of those invaders stayed for ever - let it be the Romans, the Goths, the Huns, the Vikings, the French (Napoleon), the Allies after WW II; and there was always violence involved when they invaded Germany.
So chances that the Germans would have unsolicited adopted the invaders culture were minimal anyway.
Karlos wrote:
and the ensuing conflict with Catholicism not occured (at least not on the scale and duration of the crusades) there would have been no real support for the sorts of extremists that gained the upper hand during that time.
Not quite sure what you mean with "conflict with Catholicism" - are you talking about the conflict between Catholicism and Islam?
If so, please keep in mind, that from 31. October 1517 onwards not all Christians were Catholics...
Karlos wrote:
In my opinion, no existing muslim culture in the world today can claim to be remotely like that which existed during the peak of Islam's "golden age" simply because they've lost the inquisitiveness and ambition for intellectual advancement that the earlier civilisation had.
That's a direct consequence of a change in motivation brought about by centuries of pointless conflict.
That's not a reflection on Islam, that's just a reflection on people.
Agreed, but I think it's much better for a society to be secular than to be attached to one specific religion.
I think it's a bad thing if religion dominates life.
This can lead to prosecution of science and scientists, as it happened in Europe some centuries ago...
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Karlos wrote:
Dandy wrote:
But I fail to see that Islam improved development of civilisations in the Islamic world since then - so why do you asssume that it would have been different if Islam had spread across Euorpe back then?
I can see no reason to assume that such a culture would not have continued to excel if it had been allowed to do so. It's a perfectly simple extrapolation that had this culture survived to usurp the existing ones within europe and the ensuing conflict with Catholicism not occured (at least not on the scale and duration of the crusades) there would have been no real support for the sorts of extremists that gained the upper hand during that time.
The Caliphate of Córdoba was financially exhausted by its expensive military campains fighting against the invading Fatimids in an Islamic civil war. The small Christian kingdoms of Northern Iberia paid yearly tribute to the Caliphate of Córdoba in exchange for peace with the Moors of Al-Andalus (Iberia) until its break up into the Taifa kingdoms (1031). The Moors Taifa kingdoms each centered upon their own capital city then attacked each other whenever they could gain advantage by doing so. It was not until Ferdinand (The Great) of León became king of Castile in 1035, and the king of León in 1037, that territory was taken back from the Moors, by any of the Christian Kings.
A stronger alternate history case could be made that had Carthage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Carthage) prevailed over the Romans, Phoenician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia) culture would have spread all across europe, Roman ambitions to conquer the world would have been checked, no Roman conquering of Palestine, no obsession with prophets of the jewish god Jehovah, and therefore, no subsequent 8 centuries of Jewish-Christian-Islamic conflict over the middle eastern territories. Instead, today we would go pray at Temples of "the one true god" Melqart. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart)
Islam has had 1000 years to again develop another Islamic paradise. Proclaimed Islamic paradise's since then have had one thing in common, Mutaween ( religious police) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_police) enforcement of Sharia. This golden age of al-Andalus only happened because its rulers were Islamic heretics.