Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: carls on June 29, 2003, 09:31:06 PM
-
Not Amiga, but PC...
I recently got my hands on a Pentium 166MHz with 96 megs of RAM and a 2.5 gig hard drive, so I figured I'd set up a small web server on it to play around with.
At first, I installed WinNT4 with Apache and MySQL and everything went fine - slow, but fine. But then I realized how limited I would be in the remote administration part. I'm going to put the machine at work and remote desktop and similar products will be dog slow over the encrypted VPN from my home machine, so I figured I'd install Linux and run thttpd on it instead of Apache.
I'm fairly good at Linux, I'd like to call myself a power-user or at least an advanced user. Of course, I'm still living in the late nineties since that's when I learned Linux (Slackware).
Since it's an old computer I figured I'd go with an older distribution. I've got Knoppix, RedHat 6.1 and RedHat 8.0 (I think) at home so I settled with RH6.1.
Now the fun begins.
I go through ALL the packages in the package list and select the ones I want. Still, RH installs a friggin' SMP kernel and a bunch of other useless stuff like PCMCIA support. Well, the PCMCIA support is easily removed from the init and I can rebuild the kernel later on. I can live with having the other useless software packages installed, they're just using some disk space and there's enough of old hard drives to go around.
Then I realize that neither ssh nor sshd is installed, so I decide to download them from redhat.com. Oh, but noooo, my system is too old!
I don't know what I'm going to do with the machine now. It's far too slow to run UAE or Amithlon, Windows is not an option because of the flaws in administration and it seems that most of todays Linux distributions are too bloated for a 2.5 gig disk and 96 megs of RAM.
ARRGGHHHHH! :destroy:
Any ideas?
-
A BSD might suit your purposes better. A friend of mine is running a P233MMX/128MB RAM, running all you've said and more without any problems.
If he's ok with it, and you would like a bit of help with it, he might be able to help you out.
Btw, there is openssh for NT4. Can't remember if I ever got it working, or whether it's any use at all, but anyway :-)
Btw [2] I'm not a BSD advocate :-) I've used it for longer than any Linux distro I've tried, and certain things are much easier to accomplish on it, but other things, like my failed attempt to get the nvidia FreeBSD driver working on it turned me off it :-)
-
Yeah, I might give FreeBSD a try. A lot of people say it's very good and easy to use.
As for WinNT and OpenSSH... well, I woulnd't like to try out administering an NT machine from the command prompt only :)
-
A new version of BSD would run fine on that hardware. I use a P166 with 32mb ram wih 2.5gb systemdisk running OpenBSD as a firewall/routr/webbserver/irc/shell etc for my home network with no problems at all.
-
I just found this distro called dam small linux its a small linux distro that can run from the cd and it can be installed to hard drive. link here damed small linux disto (http://www.distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=damnsmall)
I have not tried it but it is only 50 meg ,
there main website is here and has screenshots damned small linux (http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/) :-)
-
Well, BSD it is then. At least I'll give it a try :-)
-
@amigamad
Thanks for the link! Seems like Damn Small Linux is very desktop-oriented, however... There's neither ssh nor a web server in the package list. It would be nice with a similar distro made for server use, however... Just pop the CD in the drive and off you go :-)
edit: oops, at least it had SSH... More than you could say about RedHat ;-)
-
re: FreeBSD
I can give you a few basic pointers here and there, how to install stuff, how to recompile kernels, disable basic stuff, email me if you run into any problems and would like some help.
-
Of all things, the current debian woody (sans X) works pretty well for my server. It does webserving, cgi guff, php, mail serving, POP mail and lets me remote irc. It runs quite well, on a 68k 040/33 with 36mb ram and a 750mb HD. I imagine for a P166 debian would fly quite well - and debian's packages seem pretty comprehensive.
dana
(oh. debian is the only linux I've used, so I may be biased :D
-
Then I realize that neither ssh nor sshd is installed, so I decide to download them from redhat.com. Oh, but noooo, my system is too old!
In general RedHat is pain in the ass to upgrade. Basically you'll end up reinstalling the whole OS with newer RedHat version.
On the other hand debian (and debian based) distros provide damn robust and logical packaging system and apt-get to download/install/remove packages. To keep my x86-laptop (P120, 48MB ram, 10gig HD) upto date I do 'apt-get update && apt-get upgrade' weekly. No further maintaining is required.
00:16:04 up 232 days, 6:05, 16 users, load average: 0.02, 0.14, 0.16
-
In general RedHat is pain in the ass to upgrade. Basically you'll end up reinstalling the whole OS with newer RedHat version.
Sounds like the RedHat developers have been reading the Windows songsheet again :-)
-
by carls on 2003/6/29 16:31:06
Since it's an old computer I figured I'd go with an older distribution. I've got Knoppix, RedHat 6.1 and RedHat 8.0 (I think) at home so I settled with RH6.1.
Wrong choice of RHs. RH 7.3 should have been your choice, although 9.0 is reasonable. There is no reason, unless you didn't uncheck "everything" option, to have more then a single kernel installed. 6.1 should never be used for the Net unless your a sadist who enjoys running a crap load of security updates and patches.
Dammy
-
Redhat 8.0 works fairly well on my Pentium 200 with a 2 gig disk.
-
@carts
OpenBSD I'd recommend. Very secure and likes old hardware.
-
@mikeymike
Thanks!
Ok, first question :-)
Would the FBSD4.8 mini-ISO cover my needs? I'll download and compile thttpd (http://www.acme.com/software/thttpd/) myself.
-
@everyone
Thanks for your suggestions.
@dammy
Hmm, figures, a Linux dist without SSH is like... uhm... a Linux dist without SSH :-)
-
Carls, damnsmall does have ssh, sshd and a small web server.
-
Have been lurking for a while but thought I'd chip in with my 2p worth.
I use FreeBSD 4.5 here on my home network. The machine is an old Pentium running at 120Mhz, has 64Mb RAM and about 600Mb of disk space.
It serves me well running as a firewall/gateway for the network, plus runs Apache with PHP and MySQL.
Basically to cut a long story short I'd go along with the FreeBSD, or other BSD recommendations. ;-)
-
Slackware! Slackware!
-
@Cymric & Dana
Well, I AM fond of Slackware but I want to try something new. I've been in Slackware-land almost exclusively since 1995, and now Debian-land (all the Linux boxes at work are Debian machines). I do understand the Debian philosophy but it feels kinda crippled when neat stuff like Pine and Pico isn't supported by the distro team.
I want my little machine to differ from the masses (of servers at work) :-)
-
stick QNX on it and watch that old thing fly :-)
-
stick QNX on it and watch that old thing fly
agreed, If I remember corredtly, I was able to put Neutrino (qnx4) onto one (bootable) 1.44MB floppy disk and it ran a web browser and a web server in that small footprint.
As a plus its RTOS , therefore swift and agile.
{caveat}=Momentics (qnx6) doesnt like my netcard. ;{
-
Try debian instead.. Then you have full control of what too install... And can only do apt-get apache, mysql and so on... then it both install the program itself and solves dependicies... And works fine on an old system. I had irc server, web server"with mysql and php", fileserver, mail server, routing, ftp running on my p1 133@200, 2gig caviar wd and 64 meg ram
-
Right, old habits die hard...
I was seriously considering FreeBSD but since I want the machine to be up and running at a functional and reasonably secure level by wednesday I chose Slackware.
And behold! It works! And I only got the packages I wanted, a normal kernel, ssh, sshd, etc.
edit: spelling
-
@ carls
Would the FBSD4.8 mini-ISO cover my needs?
That'll give you a wide range of hardware support, basic unix tools and ssh/d. You can get it to install from FTP easily too.
The /usr/ports collection for installing stuff [easily], basically you find what you need in the dir structure, do a make install clean and off it goes, downloading what it needs. I don't know how secure/up-to-date FreeBSD 4.8 is now, I don't keep up with FreeBSD anymore. Another way for installing stuff is through /stand/sysinstall (an app) pre-compiled packages, basic configuration options and ports collection options are also available there.
The FreeBSD official documentation on the website is quite readable by UNIX documentation standards (aka. unusually good).
Easily = I can do it and I don't know much about UNIX :-)
-
One of my main complaints with the commercial distributions is that the majority of them only release bug-fixes for older releases, they don't release, say, PHP 4.3.2 when the distro came with PHP 4.1.1. This is true of all of the RPM distros.
The way around that I found was to use Debian (http://www.debian.org/). With the 'apt' util you can upgrade your entire system to the latest release using one command (apt-get dist-upgrade), update your installed software to the latest versions (apt-get upgrade), or just install one specific program (apt-get install progname). It keeps a local filelist of all of the available software from the various file sites, which is updated using another command (apt-get update), and you can change the list of sites you want by editing a text file (/etc/apt/sources.list). Finally, they tag specific program releases as either stable (stable as a rock), testing (generally stable as a rock) or unstable (tends to be quite stable), and you can set apt to only pick files from one branch by editing one file (/etc/apt/preferences).
Personally I use Debian Sid (the cutesy code-name for the unstable releases) and have done for several months, even with the KDE 3.2 CVS builds, without any problems that I didn't cause.
To make things easier for beginners, there are several commercial distributions that are based on Debian - Lindows (http://www.lindows.com/), Lycoris (http://www.lycoris.com/) and Libranet (http://www.libranet.com/), along with the self-booting Knoppix (http://www.knoppix.net/) which makes a great emergency repair disc.
Damien
-
Yay! It's online!
http://gonzo.1av10.nu/ (http://gonzo.1av10.nu/)
I'll register a suitable domain Real Soon Now.
-
There is just soo many things wrong with your post :-)
Firstly, if you had checked the RedHat Errata page, you'd have noticed that RH6.* is now unsupported. RH7.* is also heading towards its EOL as well.
Secondly, why didn't you just start with RH9? It's about as bleeding edge as RH can be!
Thirdly, try Gentoo (http://www.gentoo.org).
-
Seems clear to mea that this is an AROS situation... oh? off topic?
nah... just port TCP/IP and apachie to AROS and it's perfect :-D
-
@jamesm
That's just another reason I've just learned not to run RedHat... "It's now unsupported" - how very Microsoft of them :-) I have no interest in trying RedHat 9 on a P166 with 96 megs of RAM. Plus, now I've installed Slackware and I actually feel quite at home with it. It reminds me somewhat of AmigaOS, don't ask me why...
-
So are you still "@£¤%£$# angry" ? :-D
-
My opinions:
QNX is great, but RAM-hungry. Sure, you shouldn't need to swap, but it happens... (What're the chances of *sshd* being killed in an OOM situation?)
FreeBSD starts to feel a bit cramped in 2.5GB, if you're making a proper effort to keep /usr/src around (and conducting source upgrades, etc). That said, the recent 4.x-branch releases are quite usable (tracking the current release of your major branch is a good idea in FreeBSD-land); 5.x will show some major benefits for SMP, but all that advancement does start to make it look a bit big/complex for a set-and-forget uniprocessor box.
NetBSD and OpenBSD are 'lithe' in comparison; I'd call OpenBSD for situations where the machine will be its own firewall, and NetBSD for other "experimental" tinkering.
I know little about the state of the major Linux distributions, but it's becoming clear that RedHat should be "tracked" like FreeBSD; the *point* of new releases is in fixing the bugs of the old ones, and the EOLing tells you you *won't* be getting security advisories/patches - if their current offerings are too bloated, it's time to upgrade your hardware (as Windows users must), or switch to another *NIXalike distribution (Slack, *BSD, Debian...) with a different engineering philosophy. No use crying over spilled milk, though you're welcome to cry over the quality of distributions still making allowance for lighter systems. ;)
Mac OS X is much the same way; 10.1, .2, and .3 are closer to 'snapshot' releases even than the Windows-of-the-year model. This release model isn't so bad -- upgrading, say, FreeBSD from 4.7 to 4.8 has results little different from applying a FixPak to OS/2 or a Service Pack to Windows -- but the difference is that FreeBSD (and RHAT?) let users move up for free, while Apple's shrinkwrap philosophy amounts to a $100/year subscription fee. (Ask me how satisfied I am with SBBOD bugs in 10.1 -- and 10.3 coming soon enough that it's better to leave my cousin without a laptop than have him cough up for soon-obsolete Jaguar.)
-
linux,pc,mac etc....sad story....
anyway i never thought freebsd was easy....not for me anyway...
use your amiga kill that pc...i guess u have a toilet u can use :=)
-
you can always use the src.rpm's from newer redhat releases and compile them on your old rh box.
it should work, it is ofcourse much more trouble then just installing an rpm with '-ivh' :-P
in fact this is how the admins of those old systems keep them up to date after a new security hole has been discovered :-D
-
@carls
As you mentioned Knoppix (dunno which build) why didn't you install that instead. Knoppix is built from Debian source, with enough user friendliness to make it useable.
As you've already said you're no linux newbie, you should find everything you need with the Knoppix install, including the web server and SSH. If not, then it's only a matter of downloading the appropriate DEBIAN packages and installing. (aptitude anyone?)
-
@DarthX
No, now I'm @£¤%£$# happy :-D
-
@Desmon
IMHO, Knoppix is great for desktop use but it's pretty unmotivated for server-use, especially since the hard drive install script installs EVERYTHING (X11, KDE, Mozilla etc.)
I have no interest in making an install that forces me to clean up unused stuff by hand...
-
bloodline wrote:
Seems clear to mea that this is an AROS situation... oh? off topic?
nah... just port TCP/IP and apachie to AROS and it's perfect :-D
I agree, this is probably the best niche for AROS at this point, IMO. I have servers, but they all run NetBSD, which is a horrible OS (read: UNIX-based). I'd really like to run a civilised server, but I'm afraid of getting lost inside VMS, whereas I know AmigaDOS inside and out, so a version of AmigaOS for server use, which can be deployed on hardware which won't run AmigaOS as it is, would definitely gain my patronage.