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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / General => Topic started by: motorollin on July 17, 2007, 10:22:05 AM
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I was classically trained in the piano and self taught a little bit of guitar (just sloppy strumming really). About 8 years ago I started experimenting in composing electronic music. At the time I was using Cakewalk Home Studio with VST plugins. I then used ReWire to connect Cakewalk to Rebirth, and then about 6 years ago I moved over entirely to Reason.
In Reason I have written quite a lot of tracks, but only about 5 or 6 finished ones which I would actually consider much good. I have a few unfinished pieces which I think have potential. But I just can't finish them. Occasionally I sit down and listen to the unfinished track and really try to work out where they're going. But I can't find anything to come next.
Composition has never come easy for me. It has always been a long, drawn out struggle. Only once have I sat down and written a whole piece without stopping. It was a 6 hour marathon, and I still consider that track to be my best.
I haven't written anything now for probably at least 2 years. I sometimes feel like I've written all the music I will ever write. I can't even improvise any more. Sometimes I sit down at my keyboard and I feel like I'm about to play something. I can almost feel it in my hands like a kind of energy waiting to come out in the form of music, but still I can't find anything to play.
:-(
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moto
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You are not alone Moto, I feel your pain too. :-(
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*sigh*
I sometimes feel like I've written all the music I will ever write. I can't even improvise any more. Sometimes I sit down at my keyboard and I feel like I'm about to play something. I can almost feel it in my hands like a kind of energy waiting to come out in the form of music, but still I can't find anything to play.
Moto, I know exactly what you mean :-(
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Glad I'm not the only one. I guess we all need some inspiration :-)
I used to find it quite helpful to write a lyric, then use its rhythm as the basis for a melodic component of a track. You would think that there would be no end of subjects to choose from these days, but when it comes down to it, it really is hard to put your opinions on a subject in to words which (a) fit in to a song, (b) are somewhat interesting to listen to, and optionally (c) rhyme (though I think rhyming lyrics are overrated, and often sound very contrived).
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moto
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For some reason these lyrics seem to sum up how I feel.
In fences that you cannot climb
In sentences that do not rhyme
In all that you can never change
The one you're looking for
It gets you down
It gets you down
There's no spark
No light in the dark
It gets you down
It gets you down
You've travelled far
What have you have found?
That theres no time
There's no time
To analyse
To think things through
To make sense
- Thom Yorke, "Analyse"
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moto
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May I be so bold as to suggest Prozac? ;-)
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My problem is usually that often do imagine components of a song in my head, yet I'm usually up past my eyeballs in work.
Later, I try to remember it and it's gone. I can sit at the keyboard for a while, play a few chords or perhaps pick a few notes on the guitar, but it never comes back.
Probably a good reason not to buy another instrument :-/
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CannonFodder wrote:
May I be so bold as to suggest Prozac? ;-)
Been there done that. Stifles creativity even more :roll:
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moto
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@Karlos
I know how that feels. I used to wake up in the night and have music in my head. I would have to get up immediately and write it down otherwise it would be gone by morning. I would have scraps of paper by my bed with roughly drawn staves of fragments of music and notes on instrumentation, rhythm, or even lyrics. Other times I would actually dream a piece of music, but after waking up I couldn't remember enough of it to create anything from it.
These were the only times I felt like a real musician instead of a phoney :-(
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moto
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You know, I used to sketch and write too. I sometimes feel as if all my creative abilities have atrophied from neglect due to the need to make a living.
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Capitalism is the devourer of art. Hmmm, could be a good premise for a song... ;-)
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moto
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I get the same feelings with my photography, I've taken literally tens of thousands of images and I probably have a handful that I am proud of. Art really does take time and patience.
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When the Technics are a-spinnin', I'm a-grinnin'!!!
You back on the pills Ad? ;-)
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CannonFodder wrote:
When the Technics are a-spinnin', I'm a-grinnin'!!!
You back on the pills Ad? ;-)
Nah, I had a pair of 1200's for the past few weeks, gave 'em back yesterday and I already miss them...
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Nah, I had a pair of 1200's for the past few weeks, gave 'em back yesterday and I already miss them...
It's almost like losing a child isn't it? :-(
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Karlos wrote:
My problem is usually that often do imagine components of a song in my head, yet I'm usually up past my eyeballs in work.
That happens painfully often!
Later, I try to remember it and it's gone. I can sit at the keyboard for a while, play a few chords or perhaps pick a few notes on the guitar, but it never comes back.
Well, I can often recall it, but it never sounds as good as did when I though of it at an inconvienint moment...
That is why home studios are good, as soon as an idea come, get it recorded ASAP...
Probably a good reason not to buy another instrument :-/
Probably a good reason to buy another instrument!!!!!
ME WANT JUNO-G!!!!
@Moto
I always plan my peice in painful detail, before I even go near a keyboard/sequencer/sampler... just pen and paper.
If you know where you want to get to, it's much easier to achieve. Don't set your sights to high, often you'll want to write some powerful emotional peice with a very specific message... this is destined to failure unless you've got 10years of experience under your belt. Just choose a topic that interests you, then try to emulate a song you like... once you get experience you can push yourself a bit...
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bloodline wrote:
I always plan my peice in painful detail, before I even go near a keyboard/sequencer/sampler... just pen and paper.
I have always had a problem planning music, partly because I'm never really sure where my music is going, and also because when I do get an idea I find it almost as hard to express it in note form as I do to create the music itself. What form do your plans take? Written notes? Musical notation? Or something else?
bloodline wrote:
Don't set your sights to high, often you'll want to write some powerful emotional peice with a very specific message... this is destined to failure unless you've got 10years of experience under your belt.
Well, I started learning music when I was 4 years old, so that's 20 years experience - I would really expect to be more advanced than I am now :-(
bloodline wrote:
Just choose a topic that interests you, then try to emulate a song you like...
I do try to take little bits from other music, like synth sounds I like or drumming styles, though of course I never blatantly rip anything off :-)
Thanks for the advice - it's given me a lot to think about.
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moto
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though of course I never blatantly rip anything off
Learn to love your sampler young Padawan!
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motorollin wrote:
For some reason these lyrics seem to sum up how I feel.
In fences that you cannot climb
In sentences that do not rhyme
In all that you can never change
The one you're looking for
It gets you down
It gets you down
There's no spark
No light in the dark
It gets you down
It gets you down
You've travelled far
What have you have found?
That theres no time
There's no time
To analyse
To think things through
To make sense
Well these lyrics will cheer you up mate :-)
Try to keep from thinking
Thinking means remembering
Remembering means hurting
Hurting ain't so funny
Funny how it hits you
Hits you out of nowhere
Nowhere to hide from it
It will last forever
Forever is a long time
Time keeps on a-creeping
Creeping toward tomorrow
Tomorrow starts it over
Over all the loving
Loving and the good times
Good times turn to bad times
Bad times start me thinking
Thinking is remembering
Remembering starts the circle
Circle in a circle
Circle rounding circle
Circle is unbroken
Unbroken is the circle
Never ending circle
Circle without ending
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At the risk of getting my head bitten off, why not release the music you consider worthwhile to a select audience who can appreciate the style of your work, and have them mull things over for a bit? You might consider it 'unfinished', but if you're stuck, someone else might give you some ideas to pursue further...?
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motorollin wrote:
bloodline wrote:
I always plan my peice in painful detail, before I even go near a keyboard/sequencer/sampler... just pen and paper.
I have always had a problem planning music, partly because I'm never really sure where my music is going, and also because when I do get an idea I find it almost as hard to express it in note form as I do to create the music itself. What form do your plans take? Written notes? Musical notation? Or something else?
Often just notes (not musical notes :-) ), and a structure. then move onto the sequencer and record a few melodies and lead lines... then build it from there.
bloodline wrote:
Don't set your sights to high, often you'll want to write some powerful emotional peice with a very specific message... this is destined to failure unless you've got 10years of experience under your belt.
Well, I started learning music when I was 4 years old, so that's 20 years experience - I would really expect to be more advanced than I am now :-(
Often the worse thing that can happen from a creativity point of view is to much training... try to work from your feelings.
bloodline wrote:
Just choose a topic that interests you, then try to emulate a song you like...
I do try to take little bits from other music, like synth sounds I like or drumming styles, though of course I never blatantly rip anything off :-)
If it just for practice, then why not blatenty rip off someitnh that's good? you are not going to sell it or show it as your masterpiece! It's just to get an idea of what things work and what doesn't!
Thanks for the advice - it's given me a lot to think about.
Have fun, I love music.
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CannonFodder wrote:
Nah, I had a pair of 1200's for the past few weeks, gave 'em back yesterday and I already miss them...
It's almost like losing a child isn't it? :-(
Not quite.
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Hey motorollin maybe you should take up Country Music, because then you could write about anything. (http://www.kaneva.com/asset/assetDetails.aspx?assetId=2437561&communityId=0) :-D
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Cymric wrote:
At the risk of getting my head bitten off, why not release the music you consider worthwhile to a select audience who can appreciate the style of your work, and have them mull things over for a bit? You might consider it 'unfinished', but if you're stuck, someone else might give you some ideas to pursue further...?
I think this is generally the artists dilemma; you don't feel you can present work that is unfinished to others.
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@CF
No, I much prefer to create something from scratch than to "sample" other people's work.
@Cymric
Why would I bite your head off for that? It's actually a very good idea. Thanks for the suggestion! If anyone wants to hear some of my stuff, finished or not, PM me.
@Bloodline
Would you feel comfortable letting me see some of your notes? I think it would be helpful to me to see your creative workflow and maybe learn from it. I do sometimes think I'm too analytical of music and not emotional enough. That's a hard habit to break. As for practice, I did used to copy other people's stuff for practice. I once found an a capella vocal from Fatboy Slim's "Praise You" and reworked the whole track. I was really pleased with how it turned out and I learned a lot. Maybe I need to do that again!
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
@Bloodline
Would you feel comfortable letting me see some of your notes? I think it would be helpful to me to see your creative workflow and maybe learn from it.
Sure, I've got pages of the damn things lying around... they probably won't make much sense to you. But should give a good idea of what I mean... I'll have to dig out my scanner...
I do sometimes think I'm too analytical of music and not emotional enough. That's a hard habit to break.
um... depends... the initial idea should be emotional (that takes special type of person, I'm lucky enough to have someone like that in my band)... then working out the rest needs to be analytical (which is more my area).
As for practice, I did used to copy other people's stuff for practice. I once found an a capella vocal from Fatboy Slim's "Praise You" and reworked the whole track. I was really pleased with how it turned out and I learned a lot. Maybe I need to do that again!
Exactly! do that with as many songs as you can. I spent my formitive years working out Depeche mode songs... the experience was invaluble to understanding how a composition should fit together both musically and tibraly.
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bloodline wrote:
Sure, I've got pages of the damn things lying around... they probably won't make much sense to you. But should give a good idea of what I mean... I'll have to dig out my scanner...
Great! I would really appreciate it. My email address is in my profile. Thanks mate!
bloodline wrote:
the initial idea should be emotional (that takes special type of person, I'm lucky enough to have someone like that in my band)...
Well I am a *very* emotional person. But I find it very difficult to express my emotions (because I'm a manly man :-P ) I suppose learning how to express emotion through music is a skill which has to be nurtured.
bloodline wrote:
then working out the rest needs to be analytical (which is more my area).
My years of training in music theory should hopefully come in handy here.
bloodline wrote:
Exactly! do that with as many songs as you can.
Will do :-)
I've spotted something which has changed between the time when I started composing a lot of electronic music and the time when I stopped: I have stopped listening to new music. When I first started writing electro, I had just started listening to Kid A by Radiohead. I had never heard anything like it before, and I was absolutely amazed by it. Their subsequent albums were also sources of inspiration.
Apart from a few albums, I haven't really bought much music since then since very little music is interesting to me these days. I am still listening to the same music I was back then. I think I need something new to listen to to open my mind a bit. Suggestions please :-)
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moto
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No, I much prefer to create something from scratch than to "sample" other people's work.
I once found an a capella vocal from Fatboy Slim's "Praise You" and reworked the whole track.
Irony or Paradox? ;-)
Sampling is an art form.
What do you think about 99% hip-hop, jungle, hardcore, house, breakbeat or drum'n'bass tracks ever released being laden with samples?
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That doesn't count, it was practice :-P I can see the value in using samples of other people's work as a starting point. But creating a whole track from scratch is much more rewarding to me than basing something on somebody else's work.
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
That doesn't count, it was practice :-P I can see the value in using samples of other people's work as a starting point. But creating a whole track from scratch is much more rewarding to me than basing something on somebody else's work.
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moto
Don't knock it till you've tried it. ;-)
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@CF
You got PM :-D
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moto
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Karlos wrote:
I think this is generally the artists dilemma; you don't feel you can present work that is unfinished to others.
Of course. Note that I explicitly said 'a select few' so as to minimise embarassment. At some point the feeling of banging your head against the wall for a long time is sure to overtake the anxiety of waitinng for someone to talk about what you made. Right? (I aint no musician---I have a minor ear for music, but I absolutely suck at expressing myself that way. I am the literary man. Problem is that I'm not exactly rich on ideas. A small sliver of Neil Gaiman's idea stream would be quite welcome. In fact, make that all of Gaiman's ideas. However, the unfinished-work feeling is about the same, I guess.)
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I understand what you meant by "select few" Cymric - and thanks again for your suggestion. I have forwarded links to a couple of mp3s to a few people here.
Cheers
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moto
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Work with others.
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FluffyMcDeath wrote:
Work with others.
I considered that actually. But it's hard to commit the time to it :-(
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moto
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Right, I need something new to listen to. I've been browsing the new releases on the iTunes store, but can't find what I'm looking for. I really want something in the same vein as Radiohead's Kid A/Amnesiac era. Any suggestions?
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
Right, I need something new to listen to. I've been browsing the new releases on the iTunes store, but can't find what I'm looking for. I really want something in the same vein as Radiohead's Kid A/Amnesiac era. Any suggestions?
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moto
Hmmm... Well it's not Radiohead... but Depeche Mode's "Playing the Angel" is worth a listen...
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Just had a quick listen on iTunes and it sounds pretty good. Not what I would normally listen to and I think it will take a bit of getting used to, but having said that I hated Radiohead when I first heard them. The albums I keep coming back to years later are always the ones that took a while to grow on me.
I've just ordered the album from Amazon so I'll let you know what I think. Thanks for the suggestion! Maybe one day I'll love it as much as Kid A :-) Everything In Its Right Place still does something to my brain which causes me to collapse in a stupor as soon as I hear those opening 4 notes from the Rhodes...
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moto
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I sometimes feel like I've written all the music I will ever write.
I know what you mean.
Recently I've been getting inspiration from others.
My band played our fitst two gigs within the last month - first time I've ever played guitar to an audience - and I found myself watching how other bands do things differently.
I also saw The Rapture play the other night. Those guys are brilliant. The thing is, whilst I'm not totally sold on their recorded work, the way they play live is the way I want to record, if that makes any sense.
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adz wrote:
CannonFodder wrote:
When the Technics are a-spinnin', I'm a-grinnin'!!!
You back on the pills Ad? ;-)
Nah, I had a pair of 1200's for the past few weeks, gave 'em back yesterday and I already miss them...
Meh - I had mine on yesterday and probably, time permitting, will again today.
One old silver 1200, with an imperfect stop mechanism that I've actually grown to love over the years and a newer, black 1210 that still works perfectly.
I have the day off, have to pack for a festival but also have a rather extensive pile of dance vinyl to catalogue.
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motorollin wrote:
Right, I need something new to listen to. I've been browsing the new releases on the iTunes store, but can't find what I'm looking for. I really want something in the same vein as Radiohead's Kid A/Amnesiac era. Any suggestions?
http://www.myspace.com/ghettoplotz (http://www.myspace.com/ghettoplotz)
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Bucovina Club Vol.2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bucovina-Club-Vol-2-Shantel/dp/B0009JMENI/ref=sr_1_3/203-6687128-1659923?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1184879614&sr=8-3)
Amazing album.
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Wilse wrote:
Meh - I had mine on yesterday and probably, time permitting, will again today.
One old silver 1200, with an imperfect stop mechanism that I've actually grown to love over the years and a newer, black 1210 that still works perfectly.
I have the day off, have to pack for a festival but also have a rather extensive pile of dance vinyl to catalogue.
I used to own my own but sold them off many years ago when everybody was going to CD, as I couldn't afford to have both, the 1200's had to go. I'm tempted to buy a new pair of 1200's but I have a rather large expense coming up, so it will have to wait.
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motorollin wrote:
Right, I need something new to listen to. I've been browsing the new releases on the iTunes store, but can't find what I'm looking for. I really want something in the same vein as Radiohead's Kid A/Amnesiac era. Any suggestions?
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moto
Been a while since i heard either of those albums but perhaps some Porcupine Tree (http://www.porcupinetree.com/). Earlier albums would likely be closer to what you're after, not listened to the latest but Deadwing was very rock orientated.
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@CF
Not sure about Ghetto Plotz, but Bucovina Club is fking awesome :lol: Deffo on my next order from Amazon.
@Turambar
Just had a listen to Deadwing on iTunes and it's a bit /too/ rocky. However, I had a listen to Porcupine Tree's "Fear Of A Blank Planet" and it is beautiful - definitely going to buy it. Thanks for the recommendation.
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
@CF
Not sure about Ghetto Plotz, but Bucovina Club is fking awesome :lol: Deffo on my next order from Amazon.
Nothing quite like a bit of scruffy gyppo music eh? ;-)
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perhaps some Porcupine Tree.
Voyage 34 is a favourite of mine.
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Hi Moto,
I've been there exactly. I used to learn a few classical instruments, and then got into electronica. I love the variety and control of sounds available with synths.
My first finished tracks were remixes. Good for practice, and to learn software etc. Also really helps to develop awareness of teh whole production work flow, and learn how to put in those finishing touches that can flesh out a mix.
I'm also by nature a very analytical type, and I was working with someone who was even more analytical than me. We used to just stagnate, becomming more like audio engineers than musicians.
I strongly agree with what others have suggested in this thread. There are many ways to let the creative juices flow.
I found it was really important for me to keep playing a real instrument on a regular basis. I keep some hand drums aournd me, and have a piano I can just muck around with.
I listen to all sorts of music, including stuff I don't really like. It can still be really interesting just to have a listen and see how it works.
If I'm working with someone else, and starting from scratch, I like to mix some records, and just have a very free jam with various instruments, and pick up a few elements to work from. Once I've got some ideas, and some key sequences, then I try to be a bit analytical, to plan what could go with the rest of the track. I might not look at the key signature at all, until this stage. I would also usually give some thought to what frequency ranges are still unused in a mix.
If I'm doing an upbeat, or dancey track, I will just close my eyes, and imagine what rhythms I like to move to when I'm off my face dancing at a rave (I can still remember it, just). When I have something in my head that will work with the sequences I've already laid, I will go straight for some drums to hit out the rhythm, and then record it or make some notes with a pen.
If I have some ideas in my head which I can't play straight away, I like to make some verbal notes with a dictaphone. I might say, "Saw tooth bass, with chorus/phaser/flanger" then hum a tune. I've found this works better for me, than written notes, as a first level of memo. I'll do structured notes later, when I have time to really think about things.
I love to just have a jam. I usually do this when I've had a few drinks, or if I feel inspired after a gig. My better tracks have come from unplanned beginnings. When I have tried to plan a track, without having a starting point, they have just sounded too tight, and boring, without enough expression.
I used to use a friend's all analogue home studio. It was mostly old Roland CV/Gate gear. I found that really good for jamming with other people. Midi sequencing can be a bit awkward for jamming purposes.
I think the software one uses is also pretty important. I quite liked the composition tools of Reason, but I really thought the effects were terrible. I didn't buy any pro effects processors though. I'm now using energy-xt 2, and have liked it so far, though I am still in the early stages of learning it. I find it's pretty easy to get things done with.
It's also really important to know your instruments inside out. Learn the full range of what they can do, so when you have some ideas, you can make them come to life with maximum expression, and minimum hassle.
Good luck mate.
Oli
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Hi Oliver. Thanks for the advice! Interesting you mention about the tools being important - because this morning I had an email from Propellerhead Software letting me know I have been accepted as a beta tester for Reason 4 :-D I can't say too much about it due to the NDA, but hopefully I'll be inspired by some of the new toys :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
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moto
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dp
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moto
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Well it has just happened. I've been playing with the new arpeggiator in Reason 4, and I have been hit by a flash of inspiration. All it is is an arpegiattor run, but it forms the basis for a whole track which I can currently hear in my head. I feel so happy I don't know what to do with myself. This is the first new music I have written in over 2 years! :-D
I can't currently save anything since saving and export is disabled in the beta version of Reason 4, but I plan to record the audio on to another machine and then re-import it as a sample in to Reason 3 (full version) so I can write the rest of the track.
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
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moto