Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on June 14, 2007, 09:50:26 PM
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As reported on Moob (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbthread.pl/amiga/expand/147587)..
On Thursday, Jun 14, 2007, Rich Woods wrote:
> 39 ANSWER to Complaint , Affirmative Defenses and, COUNTERCLAIM against
> plaintiff Amiga Inc by Hyperion VOF.(Kinsel, William) (Entered: 06/13/2007)
"Amiga Delaware's claims are barred by its unclean hands."
Amiga is unclean! UNCLEAN!! Throw it on the plague wagon!
"Hyperion is entitled to an injunction prohibiting Amiga Delaware from using the name 'Amiga' in its corporate name, in corporate sponsorships of public facilities, and from using the Amiga trademarks"
Now Hyperion will try to steal the Amiga name from AInc. This is turning into something out of a bad anime.
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I don't care really anymore... At least Hyperion produced something in recent years. Can't say that about A Inc...
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If Hyperion gets full control over the Amiga name and AmigaOS from this court case, I think thats the best outcome.
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If what they claim is true, I wouldn't call it stealing. It is impressive document and if all goes well for Hyperion, we might even be able to buy OS4 someday.
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If what they claim is true, I wouldn't call it stealing. It is impressive document and if all goes well for Hyperion, we might even be able to buy OS4 someday.
No chance in Hell will that happen. Before that impossible solution would occure, the courts throw it back to WA State courts. WA State would then sell off the IP to pay existing creditors to settle all AI WA's debts.
The tatic Hyperion is using is to annoy AI to the maximum by forcing them to go to great lengths (and cost huge amount of attorney fees) to prove they do own the IP. I think that is what Hyperion is trying to do, bleed AI as much as possible and force a new contract. It is their ONLY option afterall.
Of course, this opens the door for AI to do the same with Hyperion in attempt to bleed them dry be demanding documentation and other things.
Dammy
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I doubt it works out because Hyperion does not own Amiga.
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dammy wrote:
No chance in Hell will that happen. Before that impossible solution would occure, the courts throw it back to WA State courts. WA State would then sell off the IP to pay existing creditors to settle all AI WA's debts.
The problem is that AI WA doesn't exist any more. You can't sell off items to pay debts for a company that no longer exists. If they are right that KMOS never legitimately obtained ownership of the trademarks then AI Delaware can't use those trademarks.
The interesting question is, who would own the trademarks then? Hyperion won't; they have a license to USE the trademarks for Amiga OS4. AI Washington no longer exist. Would the ownership fall back to Gateway?
Hans
EDIT: Maybe it could be used to pay AI Washington's creditors, seeing as they were originally not used for that purpose because they had supposedly been sold to Itec and then KMOS.
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first off I think this is great, finaly somebody is telling those folk at a inc which way the wind blows.
@itix
well who owns it then, becasue if you read the documents it does not look like the new a. inc has any right to anything.
I and others have been saying this for a long time, but now the courts are starting to lean that way also. No offect to the a.inc fan boys but it jsut never added up.
the shell games has gone bad, billy will end up with nothing, if anybody was the theif it was him to start with.
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dammy wrote:
If what they claim is true, I wouldn't call it stealing. It is impressive document and if all goes well for Hyperion, we might even be able to buy OS4 someday.
No chance in Hell will that happen. Before that impossible solution would occure, the courts throw it back to WA State courts. WA State would then sell off the IP to pay existing creditors to settle all AI WA's debts.
The contract grants Hyperion and Eyetech an “exclusive, perpetual, world-wide and royalty free
right and license” to OS4 and the Amig OS trademark in the event of Amiga, Inc. Washington's insolvency. In the recently released court papers, the judge pointed out that the contract does not clearly define insolvency for the purposes of the contract, but assuming that the court decides that Amiga Inc was indeed "insolvent" it would seem that Hyperion would still have a license to develop/modify/sell OS4 even if there was some court decision forcing the sale of Amiga Inc washington's assets. Of course, IANAL so I may be missing something.
I think that is what Hyperion is trying to do, bleed AI as much as possible and force a new contract. It is their ONLY option afterall.
I don't see how it's their only option. If they don't settle out of court, presumably the case will move forward. If Hyperion wins they can continue to sell and develop OS4 under the Amiga OS name. Unless your argument is that Hyperion can't afford to continue the court case, which is possible, but I don't believe there's any public info on Hyperion's financials.
Of course, I'm sure there will be a new round of negotiations towards a settlement in light of this judgement. Whether those negotiations will actually result in a settlement is an open question.
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The contract grants Hyperion and Eyetech an “exclusive, perpetual, world-wide and royalty free
right and license” to OS4 and the Amig OS trademark in the event of Amiga, Inc. Washington's insolvency.
Problem is, that will not stand in the US Courts. You can not sheild that type of IP from creditors. So either it still apart of AI-WA (and the ball will be thrown back into the WA State venue and out of US Court's venue) or it's now AI-DE. Either way, Hyperion has no hope in getting the IP, legally or financially (Pennti would drain Hyperion in the courts with years worth of appeals and such).
Dammy
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well who owns it then, becasue if you read the documents it does not look like the new a. inc has any right to anything.
According to United States Patent and Trademark Office, Amiga trademark is owned by Amiga Inc in Delaware.
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@itix
dude that the whole point, it may say that but right now it does not look like that will stand.
@dammy
it does not matter what happens to the name hyperion can use it if they wish.
it will be very difficult for a-inc (washington) to claim they where NOT insolvent given the depts they owe everbody! Even if the have to auction off the name "amiga" to pay bolton peck and such, hyperion has the right to use it, according to the contract.
the definition is pretty clear to me, you can't pay your bills, guess what your insolvent!
Now would be a good time for investors to walk away from a inc.
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hmm... a quick look at the USPTO website (trademark search function) revealed the following:
1) Original Amiga trademark remains with Amiga Inc of Washington (!). It was renewed though in September 2006. I quote:
Word Mark AMIGA
Translations FRIENDLY
Goods and Services IC 009. US 026 038. G & S: COMPUTERS, COMPUTER DISK DRIVES, RAM EXPANSION CARTRIDGES, COMPUTER MONITORS, AND COMPUTER MODEMS. FIRST USE: 19850723. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850806
Mark Drawing Code (1) TYPED DRAWING
Design Search Code
Serial Number 73571532
Filing Date December 4, 1985
Current Filing Basis 1A
Original Filing Basis 1A
Published for Opposition April 22, 1986
Registration Number 1401045
Registration Date July 15, 1986
Owner (REGISTRANT) COMMODORE-AMIGA, INC. CORPORATION CALIFORNIA 983 UNIVERSITY AVENUE LOS GATOS CALIFORNIA 95030
(LAST LISTED OWNER) AMIGA, INC. CORPORATION WASHINGTON Suite 301 167 Madison Avenue NEW YORK NEW YORK 10016
Assignment Recorded ASSIGNMENT RECORDED
Attorney of Record Darren B. Cohen
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Affidavit Text SECT 15. SECT 8 (6-YR). SECTION 8(10-YR) 20060926.
Renewal 1ST RENEWAL 20060926
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE
2) Another set of "Amiga" trademarks (about 4 of them) covering among other things DE, PDAs, OSs, and forums (:lol:) appear to have been registered between July and August 2006.
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On other news, the trademark for "Amiga Forever" appears to have been "abandoned" back in February 2005 - juicy stuff... :-P
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dude that the whole point, it may say that but right now it does not look like that will stand.
As long as Amiga Delaware is listed as owner of Amiga trademark at USPTO it will stand.
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dammy wrote:
The contract grants Hyperion and Eyetech an “exclusive, perpetual, world-wide and royalty free
right and license” to OS4 and the Amig OS trademark in the event of Amiga, Inc. Washington's insolvency.
Problem is, that will not stand in the US Courts. You can not sheild that type of IP from creditors. So either it still apart of AI-WA (and the ball will be thrown back into the WA State venue and out of US Court's venue) or it's now AI-DE. Either way, Hyperion has no hope in getting the IP, legally or financially (Pennti would drain Hyperion in the courts with years worth of appeals and such).
Dammy
Except it's not shielded from creditors. The insolvency clause of the contract doesn't grant ownership of the IP to Hyperion and Eyetech just a license to it. And this of course assumes that the buyback clause was actually properly executed in the first place (the judgement notes contradicting claims in this area) in which case Amiga Inc, may not have even owned the OS at the time of it's "insolvency"
Furthermore, even if Amiga Washington is in possession of the relevant IP, someone (presumably a creditor) is going to have to start another lawsuit to get its assets auctioned off properly.
That said, I don't have a whole lot of interest in who wins this case. I've long since lost interest in using Amiga OS or any of its derivatives (though a proper classic amiga port of AROS might pique my interest). In some ways, I kind of hope the case continues as all kinds of interesting drama is popping out of the woodwork as a result.
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They overlooked the obvious- they should have been AI Bahamas.... Gould/Ali got at least that much right.
:-D :-D :-D
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@Hans_
Would the ownership fall back to Gateway?
Ya know I was just thinking....
If the transfer of Amiga Inc W. was not valid, and you have to go back to decide the fate of Amiga Inc W. assests including the IP, wouldn't the assests fall to the one person with a legitimate monetary court judgement in their favor making them the major creditor of Amiga Inc W. .... Bolten Peck?????
You've just entered.... the twilight zone.
Plaz
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As far as I can tell Hyperion does NOT own the Amiga brand... however they own a license and therefore right to use the brand name on what now also seems to become their own OS. I doubt very much that this license will allow for an Amiga branded computer from Hyperion/Acube but it'll most likely be running AmigaOS4.x.
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xeron wrote:
If Hyperion gets full control over the Amiga name and AmigaOS from this court case, I think thats the best outcome.
Why is one bunch of liars better than two?
It doesn't matter any more. The Amiga lost its soul to dishonesty years ago and there is no way back.
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bhoggett wrote:
xeron wrote:
If Hyperion gets full control over the Amiga name and AmigaOS from this court case, I think thats the best outcome.
Why is one bunch of liars better than two?
It doesn't matter any more. The Amiga lost its soul to dishonesty years ago and there is no way back.
Liars or not, I'd love to see OS4 available again, and that it will continue to be developed.
Varthall
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bhoggett wrote:
Why is one bunch of liars better than two?
It doesn't matter any more. The Amiga lost its soul to dishonesty years ago and there is no way back.
Can someone clear this up for me a bit? I understand the anger directed at AI due to all the promises and lies. What's new to me is that people don't like Hyperion, what did they do that annoyed people? I missed all of that.
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How about the lies about how impossible it would be to port OS4 to Macs? Hyperion does have creditibility issues all their own.
Dammy
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deddly wrote:
bhoggett wrote:
Why is one bunch of liars better than two?
It doesn't matter any more. The Amiga lost its soul to dishonesty years ago and there is no way back.
Can someone clear this up for me a bit? I understand the anger directed at AI due to all the promises and lies. What's new to me is that people don't like Hyperion, what did they do that annoyed people? I missed all of that.
Just things that came up in the court docs.. First it looks like it was hyperion that held OS4 hostage. Second they claimed that Aros and MorphOS was illegal and it even came up in the docs that hyperion was urging Amiga inc to start a trial against genesi and so on..
Basically it looks all like they played a game by dragging it all out in hopes that amiga inc died and them getting the ownership, which we all know did not go completely after their plans.
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No,no. Amiga is well funded - ask billyboy. I mean how else can you commit 2.5 mil for the naming rights to a stadium if you don't have any money?... And their IP is worth millions.
As far as old judgments - that's the OLD Amiga, the NEW Amiga is ready and on schedule and rockin'.
Can you imagine ordering a hot dog from your seat with a cell phone? WOW! No wonder Kent officials were so impressed.
________
SHIP SALE (http://ship-sale.com/)
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deddly wrote:
Can someone clear this up for me a bit? I understand the anger directed at AI due to all the promises and lies. What's new to me is that people don't like Hyperion, what did they do that annoyed people? I missed all of that.
Long history - you'd have had to be there to understand. Let's just say some of us could see all this coming all along and said as much. Does it not strike anyone as surprising that Amiga Inc's legal consultant at the time these deals were struck was no other than Hyperion's MD? Or that when AmigaOS4 beta (or pre-release, as Hyperion insisted on calling it) is now considered the actual release of AmigaOS4, which is exactly what people suspected would happen at the time despite Hyperion ridiculing the idea. In short, anyone willing to see the truth could see what was happening and knew that both companies were not dealing in good faith. Hyperion have been just as dishonest as Amiga Inc all along.
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deddly wrote:
Can someone clear this up for me a bit? I understand the anger directed at AI due to all the promises and lies. What's new to me is that people don't like Hyperion, what did they do that annoyed people? I missed all of that.
HERE (http://www.favrin.net/txt/varie/commenti/goodbye_os4.en.html) is a blast from the past.
Of course, THIS (http://www.biclodon.com/misc/amigafarm/benhermans) website brings much reading entertainment.
As someone else said, you had to be there. There is just way too much history here to put in a single forum post. For many years Hyperion was given a get out of jail free card by a large section of the kommunity, because they were developing teh true Amiga(tm). Many think they abused this privilege and launched campaigns of misinformation against projects, companies and individuals. Additionally it now appears most of what their detractors have said over the years have been 100% accurate. Court documents certainly clear up a lot.
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why is this bad, hyperion is the ONLY company to produce anything
Amiga related in regards to OS4 yet!!! Imagine how nice the picture would be if you turn Hyperion in to Amiga and well thats it, the guys who wrote the code own the code and now they can market it!!!!! That sounds good to me.
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[EDIT]
that linebreak fooled me.
[/EDIT]
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I'm normally pessimistic but I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way this time.
This is actually the best that could've happened.
Hyperion get's AmigaOS trademark (hey AInc signed up a contract that they didn't comply with, they can't be playing the innocent here) and get's Amiga brand recognition (by using AmigaOS wich is practically the same).
Genesi get's Amiga license and MOS starts being sold with Efika Amigas;)
So in the end Amiga brand recognition to everyone involved (MOS, Genesi, AInc, Hyperion) and AmigaOS is finally being developed as it should be (not that DE/OS5 crap anymore).
It's all good ;-)
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yetihw wrote:
why is this bad, hyperion is the ONLY company to produce anything
Amiga related in regards to OS4 yet!!! Imagine how nice the picture would be if you turn Hyperion in to Amiga and well thats it, the guys who wrote the code own the code and now they can market it!!!!! That sounds good to me.
I think you'll find the MorphOS and AROS teams did more for us and first. Hyperion (The owners, not the coders) are scheming rats who have been out to steal the PPC Amiga market from firstly MOS-Team and secondly the entire IP from Amiga Inc from the very beginning.
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deddly,
[/quote]Can someone clear this up for me a bit? I understand the anger directed at AI due to all the promises and lies. What's new to me is that people don't like Hyperion, what did they do that annoyed people? I missed all of that.[/quote]
I was not very active with anything Amiga for many years, until about three, maybe four, years ago when I decided to check around and see what was new. I found out about AmigaOne and OS4, and started looking into it. It didn't take long until I discovered the AmigaOne was junk, so I started asking the same questions that pretty much *everybody* asks when they first discover OS4 was developed for PPC - why can't I run it on my Mac? It didn't take long for the Hyperion "gang" to start treating me like I was some kind of idiot for even asking that question, and other pretty obvious questions that always seem to come up.
So, here I am, an experienced developer who thoroughly enjoyed the Amiga back in the day - now I have zero positive interest in OS4. What a great company! And the OS4 community is so full of rational, endearing people, lol! It seems Hyperion couldn't beat off newcomers fast enough with their sh!tty attitude.
Aside from my personal experiences though, take this as just one example:
Which of the following has Hyperion claimed about the lineage of OS4?
A) "It is based on the original AOS sources, and so it is the true Amiga!"
B) "The original AOS sources were not very useful, so we rewrite the whole thing."
C) "We never gained access to the original AOS sources."
D) All of the above.
Correct answer: D
Then there was all the BS where Hyperion claimed the embedded market was wide open, just waiting for OS4 to swoop down and take over, even now we are in talks with a large unnamed embedded customer, blah blah blah - all turned out to be total BS. Then there is the classic, "Three months to change some flags and recompile". Hyperion is full of crap, basically. That tends to turn a lot of people off.
OS4 is just a waste of time and effort. It never amounted to anything, it hasn't drawn the community together - if anything people put their hopes in OS4 and Hyperion pissed them away over the years.
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We'll watch now to see if Amiga inc the company that can't get a grip on its own IP can actually be so idiotic that it can give it to someone else. :lol:
________
Hayley (http://www.girlcamfriend.com/cam/Hayley/)
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@guru-666
In an official bancruptsy their are a few things done:
Contracts not bringing in money will be voided.
Contracts containing things unfair to the creditors (like "in the case of being insolvent....") will be voided.
All assets will be used to generate the maximum compensation for the creditors, everthing else is unimportant.
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I should have elaborated more when I was typing my post I knew someone would mention those two as well I was trying to keep my response focused on the Actual AMIGA product, as opposed to clones.
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Thanks for clearning up the whole Hyperion thing. I still think they would be better owners than AI... I prefer the idea of us lot (the community) buying them out, but that's unlikely to happen.
Sorry to help throw the thread OT
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c64_d0c wrote:
No,no. Amiga is well funded - ask billyboy.
...
Hmmmmmmm - here in Germany "Billyboy" is the trade name for condoms of a certain manufacturer...
:-D
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@Dammy:
If one part of the contract is considered null and void, wouldn't it happen to all contract, meaning that Amiga Inc wouldn't have any access to Hyperion work?
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@Kronos,
In this case it's not as if they own any of AmigaOS 4 code, and as for the trademarks... they've licensed them as Gateway did to them, so how can they touch something they do not own?
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Jose wrote:
I'm normally pessimistic but I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way this time.
This is actually the best that could've happened.
Hyperion get's AmigaOS trademark (hey AInc signed up a contract that they didn't comply with, they can't be playing the innocent here) and get's Amiga brand recognition (by using AmigaOS wich is practically the same).
Genesi get's Amiga license and MOS starts being sold with Efika Amigas;)
So in the end Amiga brand recognition to everyone involved (MOS, Genesi, AInc, Hyperion) and AmigaOS is finally being developed as it should be (not that DE/OS5 crap anymore).
It's all good ;-)
That is *TOTAL* BS! I gave both parties a resolution and they sh!t on it. They preferred to squander their pitiful market away, in years of litigation. If you people were smart, you'd be happy with what you have and let the Amiga die with dignity. Without those few, pathetic people still clinging on to one side or the other, neither has *ANY* chance of making a profitable market from us. They squandered away any hopes of not making the Amiga name a laughingstock.
Just so people know, I emailed Big Mac at Amiga, Inc. after I got fed up. I started to organize a class-action suit against Amiga, Inc. for fraud and theft, over the coupon fiascos, but told him that I would work out a proposal that would help unify the entire community, behind a common goal of of re-vitalizing the Amiga, putting my civil suit against them, on hold, if they'd hear me out.
After finishing my proposal, I sent it off and only one company had the decency to respond to it and that was Hyperion, who gave me a polite 'no', claiming they have "tricks up their sleeves". I attempted to act as a mediator between all parties (something a judge will force them to do, after they've blown a ridiculous amount of money, suing each other), but they slapped me across the face. Only days after I sent my proposal, I find it ironic that Amiga, Inc. sent out emails to us "coupon holders", telling us that we would be reimbursed for our losses, blah blah. I can't go into more specifics about the conversations, 'cos unlike these "companies", I will respect a party asking my Non-disclosure, but if anyone wants to see what *I* was trying to do, I'll be more than happy to email my, as they put it, "gentleman's proposal", to them, for public consumption. I'm not an attorney, but I was a person who got sick of their bullsh!t and tried to do something about it.
They don't care about you. They only care about their own goals and roadmaps, which never concerned us, unless they could use us to get money, as cheaply as possible. *THAT* is why we got crappy motherboards. *THAT* is why there was no X86 Amiga (Remember Amithlon?). *THAT* is why it took *YEARS* to get "OS4".
You want to support something Amiga, support AROS.
Hell, support MorphOS. At least Genesi provided decent hardware.
[EDIT]
I should point out that Genesi is *EQUALLY* as guilty as both Amiga, Inc. and Hyperion over shady deals, but the PegasOS was a top-notch board, unlike that POS Teron Board.
Just support AROS. At least those guys (and girls - No chauvenists we!) care about what they're doing. They're not doing it, for money.
Greed is what rules the Amiga. It's always been that way.
Commodore.
Amiga, Inc. - Washington
Amiga, Inc. - Delaware (who still owe people money, but that's the "old" company).
Genesi (who still owe people money)
Hyperion (who claim to still owe people money)
ACK
Anti-Gravity (who owe me and several others for pre-paid "Boxers")
Haage & Partner
Merlancia
Jeez, do I *REALLY* need to keep going???
Just be happy with what you have. The best thing we could do is not support *ANY* of these pathetic excuses for companies. Why give them money, when all they try to do is rip us off?
They *HAD* an out - They blew it. :roll:
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If one part of the contract is considered null and void, wouldn't it happen to all contract, meaning that Amiga Inc wouldn't have any access to Hyperion work?
As long as it was not based on AI's IP, Hyperion should keep the code but the buyback option was not completed. That's the qustion right now, why did Hyperion give AI a reciept for the transaction? That's for the jury to decide.
Dammy
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Just support AROS. At least those guys (and girls - No chauvenists we!) care about what they're doing. They're not doing it, for money.
Actually, some of us ARE spending our money on AROS. The Amiga Community gets the end product for free. Folks want PPC, AROS is being ported to EFIKA and a bounty was just up (with a Dev mobo) for porting it to SAM440. X86_64 native is also underway. Who else is offering your favorate hardware with a friendly open source OS?
Dammy
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@ Dammy,
My point was simply that you offer "bounties" for ports. If you don't complete the port, you don't get the money. AROS Coders, to my knowledge, haven't "taken anyone's money and ran" so to speak. The same can't be said for many of the Amiga "companies" over the years, not to mention some of the community members, looking to make a quick buck.
I have no interest in the Amiga Platform anymore. It's become a joke. Until I could get an Amiga with a current browser, OpenOffice, OpenGL support and a slew of other things I cant think of, right now, I doubt I'd change my mind.
AROS, at least, doesn't make any BS promises. They don't make "announcements", until they have something to announce.
Amiga, Inc. (as well as all the others) could learn a thing or two, from you.
The minute AROS starts offering coupons, I'm out of there, too. ;-)
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dammy wrote:
How about the lies about how impossible it would be to port OS4 to Macs? Hyperion does have creditibility issues all their own.
Dammy
???????
i don't remember any such statement. all i remember was the friedens telling us THEY would not port it without proper documentation.
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Which of the following has Hyperion claimed about the lineage of OS4?
A) "It is based on the original AOS sources, and so it is the true Amiga!"
B) "The original AOS sources were not very useful, so we rewrite the whole thing."
C) "We never gained access to the original AOS sources."
D) All of the above.
Correct answer: D
A this was stated by hyperion management IIRC. and since when does management have a complete picture of anything.
B this was stated by the programmers (one of the friedens iirc)
C how does this statement affect the other two? they aquired the sources themselves so this does not affect the other statements.
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jkirk wrote:
Which of the following has Hyperion claimed about the lineage of OS4?
A) "It is based on the original AOS sources, and so it is the true Amiga!"
B) "The original AOS sources were not very useful, so we rewrite the whole thing."
C) "We never gained access to the original AOS sources."
D) All of the above.
Correct answer: D
A this was stated by hyperion management IIRC. and since when does management have a complete picture of anything.
B this was stated by the programmers (one of the friedens iirc)
C how does this statement affect the other two? they aquired the sources themselves so this does not affect the other statements.
A was stated by both of the genetic clones on more than one occasion.
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CannonFodder wrote:
jkirk wrote:
Which of the following has Hyperion claimed about the lineage of OS4?
A) "It is based on the original AOS sources, and so it is the true Amiga!"
B) "The original AOS sources were not very useful, so we rewrite the whole thing."
C) "We never gained access to the original AOS sources."
D) All of the above.
Correct answer: D
A this was stated by hyperion management IIRC. and since when does management have a complete picture of anything.
B this was stated by the programmers (one of the friedens iirc)
C how does this statement affect the other two? they aquired the sources themselves so this does not affect the other statements.
A was stated by both of the genetic clones on more than one occasion.
so you are saying the friedens are the liars? and not hyperion. :-)
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Splitters the lot of them..
I wave my private parts at their Aunties and call their legal claims a "silly thing"..
:rtfm:
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jkirk wrote:
CannonFodder wrote:
jkirk wrote:
Which of the following has Hyperion claimed about the lineage of OS4?
A) "It is based on the original AOS sources, and so it is the true Amiga!"
B) "The original AOS sources were not very useful, so we rewrite the whole thing."
C) "We never gained access to the original AOS sources."
D) All of the above.
Correct answer: D
A this was stated by hyperion management IIRC. and since when does management have a complete picture of anything.
B this was stated by the programmers (one of the friedens iirc)
C how does this statement affect the other two? they aquired the sources themselves so this does not affect the other statements.
A was stated by both of the genetic clones on more than one occasion.
so you are saying the friedens are the liars? and not hyperion. :-)
Well when the court case finishes we will find out I guess.
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CannonFodder wrote:
Well when the court case finishes we will find out I guess.
well it really don't matter to this case it just annoys me when everyone jumps to conclusions about ainc or hyperion. imo this case has more to do with miscommunication and misunderstandings than anything tangible. now both sides are pissed and going for everything(or so it seems). of course that will all come out in the trial as well.
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jkirk wrote:
CannonFodder wrote:
Well when the court case finishes we will find out I guess.
well it really don't matter to this case it just annoys me when everyone jumps to conclusions about ainc or hyperion. imo this case has more to do with miscommunication and misunderstandings than anything tangible.
I think it has more to with with both sides being greedy and manipulative and trying to scam each other from the start.
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I think it has more to with with both sides being greedy and manipulative and trying to scam each other from the start.
it's possible i just don't see it that way.so far in the documents and statements i see bias and i see misunderstandings but i have not seen blatent malice. maybe by the end of the case this will become clear but i refuse to jump to that conclusion. i prefer innocent until proven guilty whenever possible.
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jkirk wrote:
I think it has more to with with both sides being greedy and manipulative and trying to scam each other from the start.
it's possible i just don't see it that way.so far in the documents and statements i see bias and i see misunderstandings but i have not seen blatent malice. maybe by the end of the case this will become clear but i refuse to jump to that conclusion. i prefer innocent until proven guilty whenever possible.
I base my assumption not just on the court documents but on the documented behaviour of Bill McEwen, Barry Moss, and Ben Hermans.
None of whom I would trust as far as I could throw them.
Take a look at the ann.lu archives for some of Mr Hermans classics.
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Flashlab wrote:
I don't care really anymore... At least Hyperion produced something in recent years. Can't say that about A Inc...
And quoted from a page linked to this thread
I did my part. I helped Olaf Barthel with RoadShow and I did other things that I won't mention since I don't want get them "dirty" with the resignation that closes this message. Resignation because I am watching a dream falling down. Not my dream, a greater one. The one of a community of different people, fair and friendly, of people who support and respect members. Once upon a time Amiga was that, now it's not anymore.
The slow march into oblivion for Amiga continues and is hastened by the current actions of the principal companies in control of the Amiga future. More and more Amiga users are driven to the point of "I just don't care anymore".
Sad, so very sad that it has come to this and continues to drag on in this unproductive direction.
Also sad that the Amiga story became one of what "Could have been" so early in its lifespan. Long before even the bankruptcy of Commodore almost all of us were lamenting about what could have become of the Amiga and saying "If Only Commodore Had ............"
I will continue to use and enjoy my collection of Amigas for the rest of my life, just for the fun of it. I too have long ago given up hope for any amazing developments from Amiga Inc. or any other company that is working on an Amiga like operating system with propietary hardware.
Not that it excites me, but with all this trouble for Amiga Inc. and Hyperion, it will probably give the MorphOS and AROS developers a small boost as more Amiga users look for an alternative.
end rant
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Hahahahaaa! YES! It's MINE ALL MINE!!!
First order of business: Get OS 4 on the Pegasos, Efika and any/all derivatives
Second: Get Amithlon in every computer store in the USA as a 'boot and run' CD like it used to be.
Third: Amiga OS powered bicycle computer/training system ;-) I'm a bike nut, what did you expect?
Oh wait, third: rake in the bucks from Amithlon and OS sales :-D
The point here? I'd actually GET SOMETHING OUT THERE TO SELL!! People aren't interested in being able to buy hot dogs from their cel phones at sports events. it's called a text message to the guy at the counter who then dispatches the runner with the food.. Not something I'd stake my future on, but hey no one ever called me a visionary in that regard :-p
Actually there's a lot I could do in the hobbyist market with Amiga IP, I think they're kind of missing the boat in terms of what they have and what it can do now, with very minimal R and D investment (that has pretty much already been done by Hyperion).
I can always dream, huh?
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I base my assumption not just on the court documents but on the documented behaviour of Bill McEwen, Barry Moss, and Ben Hermans.
online behavior is not always the same as actual behavior. but yes it does throw out strong hints to the character of the person.
None of whom I would trust as far as I could throw them.
there ain't very many people i would trust that much ;)
Take a look at the ann.lu archives for some of Mr Hermans classics.
maybe i will one day but i am trying to avoid preconcieved notions that reading it would create.
you might be right about this. i am just trying to stay as neutral as i can on the issues brought up in court.
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@ Tron
That's almost what I proposed. ;) In fact, part of my proposal was paying *YOU* back. I probably rocked the boat on that one, but the bike idea is AWESOME.
Oh well. I tried. They lost.
I'm sorry I didn't get you paid back. =/
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by jkirk on 2007/6/19 6:20:45
i don't remember any such statement. all i remember was the friedens telling us THEY would not port it without proper documentation.
You maybe right, they may have hinted they wouldn't, but reading some of these (http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/cgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/147842.shtml) gems, it sure looks like they couldn't be bothered since it would be difficult. Now it's running on a Mac? Guess it wasn't that tough, for someone.
Dammy
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actually this was brought up on amigaworld. one of the developers kicked in and said that the programming was a pain in the arse.
see here
see av's comments (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=23296&forum=2&start=40&viewmode=flat&order=0#381494)
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A pain in the ass surely, but in the end somebody else out there besides the Fridens got the job done.
From claiming that without docs it couldn't be done, to maybe it could be done but it's difficult and the licensing is an issue, to yes we can help somebody else do it...I wonder if the Friedens now accept that MAI is out of business, two years after the fact?
Baby steps...baby steps... :-P
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You do not understand US Corporate Law. It has nothing to do with if AI Inc. said or did not say or prove in Washington, it never will. The action is filed in a different court against a different company. The only thing that that the present court can take into consideration is the present litigation facts. Under US law the company AI Inc. Washington does not exists. They may have closed because they where insolvent again under US law this is no problem as long as they stopped operating legally in Washington and start the new company legally.
The fact is the injunction being turned down is not a big deal. I will assume the AI Inc. is just wasting the litigants legal costs. This is about the source code to OS 4.0 and who owns it in the US only. The rights and privileges of a US company under US law is dictated by settled litigation and those legislations set precedence in the court. You can of course go to a court where it has no priors. But the settled litigations will come into effect.
In most instances in Corporate law there is no guilt or innocence only intent and effect.
I would also like to point out that US laws covering Copyright and Patents is different than every country in the world except Japan (a result of US occupation after WW2. Even if AI Inc. where to go bankrupt and be a non existent entity they would still retain there rights unless allocated by the courts at dissolution.
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From claiming that without docs it couldn't be done,
i believe this has been mentioned before but the friedens never said it couldn't be done. what they did say is it wouldn't be done by them if they didn't have docs.
unless i missed something.
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vpamicue wrote:
This is about the source code to OS 4.0 and who owns it in the US only.
Not exactly. Patent laws may differ a great deal, and those in the US are irretrievably corrupt IMHO, but ownership of the source code is a matter of copyright, and copyright is recognised by most countries in the world.
Hyperion can't own the source code copyright (to any of the original AmigaOS code they might have used or had access to) unless they somehow acquired it prior to Amiga Inc, Washington's insolvency. AFAIK any attempt to "protect" assets in this manner is effectively illegal and voided by insolvency proceedings as it would be cheating the other creditors.
As far as I can make out they also claim to own the trademark so that they can continue to market the product as AmigaOS. Again, this falls under the protection of assets issue. The truth is it's a messy case with none of the parties involved really telling the truth. Each is trying to use a murky situation (which they created in the first place) to get something for nothing from the other party.
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Well, I've been here all along, and I understand why some people don't like Hyperion - I, for one, don't like them at all.
What I don't understand is why so many people blame Amiga Inc and Bill McEwen for the fact that Hyperion Entertainment failed to deliver the OS as they had contracted to do. As far as I can see.
Hyperion have taken advantage of a clause that Bill McEwen put in the contract to protect us, the community, to steal Amiga Inc's intellectual property and trademarks. And, lets face it, much of the reason for Amiga Inc alleged "insolvency" is that Hyperion failed to deliver on their contract. I'm starting to think that was their intent from the beginning.
But fear not - what Hyperion do to others can be done back to them. What goes around, comes around.
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While AI and Hyperion are fighting... Let's say, somebody with a lot of money wants to own the Amiga name etc., OS4 , all hardware developments, chipsets... everything.
Which way would be wise to go?