Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on May 29, 2007, 06:56:31 PM
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Page 27, answer to question 4 (http://merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/35-5decmcewenexhibit5show_case_doc.pdf)
Amazing, isn't it? My opinion of Hyperion just went down a couple more notches and it wasn't that high to begin with :-x
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LOL. I wish this was a movie.. there's so many twists and turns..friends turned to enemies.. etc.. LOLOL
:popcorn: :popcorn:
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Given that AROS has been in development for a decade and is still barely functional, it's highly unlikely that it uses any stolen source code. We're getting into Lawyer Land with the use of the word "illegal" in that statement. If it doesn't infringe on code, is there anything else in AROS that could possibly be infringing? Who knows and who cares? The "probably" qualifier on the word suggests that Mr. Carlton doesn't really understand the situation. Besides, it's irrelevant to the current case.
My decision: Ignore.
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Yet another twist in the world of Amiga, gotta admit things never get boring here in Amiga Land :-D :-D :-D :rtfm:
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And these people expect support from the amiga community?
Hyperion: What exactly is illegal about Aros? Did you not even use parts of Aros for OS4?
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n/m - wasn't ben, was evert carton or carton evert or whatever he was a carton full of...
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IIRC back in the COSA days there was talk of use of Trademarks within the code being a potential hurdle to open source AmigaOS. In particular things like the use of "Workbench screen" and "intuition". That was one possible way that AROS could fall foul of Amiga Inc's lawyers.
However I did a quick check a few weeks back, and all of the trademarks that could potentially cause problems lapsed a long time ago, in many cases pre-Gateway. So that should no longer be a threat.
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"Workbench" - even though a registered trademark - can be used if it is required for interoperability. Basically it need to be, as applications can try to lock public screen called "Workbench". Similarily some older apps might strcmp the window->ScreenTitle to detect the Workbench screen, so IMO use of the it is legimate in this context, too.
Same goes for "intuition.library", it must be called that or the library cannot be found. Intuition isn't listed in the amiga trademarks, however, or at least i could not find it from my AmigaOS 3.5 manual.
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It amazes me that anyone can say that the whole OS (except for EXEC possibly) that anything is original about the entire OS.. People have rewritten just about every part of the OS that was replaceable (even in Commodore's time), see Aminet and the Fish Disks for proof..
Considering that I wonder if anyone can really say that they "own" it.. If people assembled all of the replacement parts in public domain, they'd have a close to functional system as it was... Considering all the 3rd party items that I saw "included with 3.9" I'd have to say I have a hard time believing any of it.
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A Cher lyric comes to mind...
"If I could turn back time (aah the early 90 was so sweet)
If I could find a way (fluxcapasitor?)
I'd take back those words that hurt you and you'd stay (trolling anyone?)
I don't know why I did the things I did (abandoning the Amiga for a few years late 90's)
I don't know why I said the things I said (PC was all I needed sure?)
Pride's like a knife it can cut deep inside (Who's is right who's wrong OS4 is his no hers)
Words are like weapons they wound sometimes. (In the courthouse words are the weapons)
I didn't really mean to hurt you I didn't wanna see you go I know I made you cry, but baby (Amiga is hurting by this but then...argh... it's a lyric.. not all words fits the bill)"
And with that song in my head I'll now draw back into a corner rocking back and forth saying "Amiga is ok, Classic is all I need" , "Amiga is ok, Classic is all I need" saying it like a mantra untill I fall asleep.
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Whats going on?
It all seems such a mess. I cant keep up with the court docs - too busy to read them all (work is an arse at the moment..)
Is there a concise thread that simply lists all the stuff thats come to light (a cut down version to save people having to dig through the court docs) - without comments from people - simply because its often hard to get to the info in threads because the discussions are often heated.
Oh - this is the first time I've posted on A.org in ages. I should post more.
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With that statement definitely Hyperion has lost any respect for my part and i begin to think that they aren't the professionals the claim to be.
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Reading these court documents, it really makes me wonder.. They must know the kommunity is reading this junk. It almost seems as if they are at this point they are trying to do as much damage as possible to each other in the court of public opinion. Why? Why is this tiny kommunity suddenly important?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it;-)
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redrumloa wrote:
Page 27, answer to question 4 (http://merlancia.us/amiga-hyperion/35-5decmcewenexhibit5show_case_doc.pdf)
Amazing, isn't it? My opinion of Hyperion just went down a couple more notches and it wasn't that high to begin with :-x
Heh. Noticed that quote, but didn't pay attention to the source of it until now. Obviously Hyperion has reason to want to play up OS4's legitimacy, I can barely read it as more than the 'not-so-secret Amiga handshake' wherein anyone negotiating is obliged to demonstrate their grave concern over intellectual property rights, yadda yadda...
That said, any questions of AROS's "legality" would seem to go back to the hazy MorphOS-type questions of who got to see source, when, and why, and Amiga Inc. are (supposedly) the ones restricting access to the AROS sources for review:
The AROS repository is running on a password protected SVN server, which means that you need to apply for access to it to be able to collaborate in the development. At the request of Amiga Inc., anonymous read-only access to the repository has been disabled.
...so if AInc. is satisfied with that roadblock/has come to such accomodation, and Hyperion never got to see (CBM/H&P) sources in the first place... Well, like I said, standard Amiga business etiquette these days. ;)
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Hmm, I guess I also left out my feeling that "probably illegal" in this context more suggests 'Well, crap, neither of our companies could dare rely on it without fear of being sued into oblivion' than any sort of direct accusation.
Sort of the way some still fear or denigrate Linux just in case there's some unauditable/unprovable bomb of a commit lurking back in its history. (...though even then, removing the bomb should make it clean, though Linus and distributors might have some cointoss risk of liability, strongly dependent on knowledge and intent...)
Evert's not a native speaker, right? That's a bit of a mess of a concept to express succinctly, especially when the object is a project you're 'competing' with. :)
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Piru wrote:
"Workbench" - even though a registered trademark - can be used if it is required for interoperability. Basically it need to be, as applications can try to lock public screen called "Workbench". Similarily some older apps might strcmp the window->ScreenTitle to detect the Workbench screen, so IMO use of the it is legimate in this context, too.
Same goes for "intuition.library", it must be called that or the library cannot be found. Intuition isn't listed in the amiga trademarks, however, or at least i could not find it from my AmigaOS 3.5 manual.
As I said, many of those trademarks lapsed long before Gateway got it's hands on them. Even Commodore dropped the ball on a few of them while Amiga was still popular.
The point I was trying to make was that the closest thing to a legal argument that Amiga Inc. could possibly have is a complete dead-end.
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The AROS repository is running on a password protected SVN server, which means that you need to apply for access to it to be able to collaborate in the development. At the request of Amiga Inc., anonymous read-only access to the repository has been disabled.
Indeed that looks bad, and I've never understood what the heck that was all about (why should Amiga Inc have ANY say about this?). In worst case Amiga Inc could use that as some sort of leverage against AROS (yes, that's far fetched).
IMHO they should have just blatantly ignored any Amiga Inc communication as irrelevant.
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LOL @ Brian! :lol:
Its obvious why Hyp' would attack AROS, greed and probably envy to some degree, while their OS is locked up in bitter and stupid legal feuding, AROS is free to continue developing into a usable OS.
AROS has the potential to do what Hyp and Ainc should've done ages (and I mean !AGES!) ago. That is bring a fresh Amiga-ish OS to the masses.
Screw Hyperion and Ainc, the sooner both Co's fold and are forgotten, the better.
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Quote:
The AROS repository is running on a password protected SVN server, which means that you need to apply for access to it to be able to collaborate in the development. At the request of Amiga Inc., anonymous read-only access to the repository has been disabled.
The only reason that statement was never takend down (since you can download the source in a ISO vs SVN activity), it's a convient excuse to protect limited bandwidth to the SVN.
Now back in the day, IIRC, when AROS was running afoul with one of Gateway/AI's IP, AROS did cater to AI's wishes. It (left button for pull down menue) was taken out and after that patent expired, reintroduced to AROS. That issue was solved, limited bandwidth to the SVN never has been.
Dammy
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So how about adjusting that statement to indicate the real reason for the limited access?
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dammy wrote:
The only reason that statement was never takend down (since you can download the source in a ISO vs SVN activity), it's a convient excuse to protect limited bandwidth to the SVN.
Good to know. In fact, last I really looked was way before the switch to Subversion; I took a very brief poke around on the recent visit for an "obvious" 'get source here' link and didn't see it.
Now back in the day, IIRC, when AROS was running afoul with one of Gateway/AI's IP, AROS did cater to AI's wishes. It (left button for pull down menue) was taken out and after that patent expired, reintroduced to AROS. That issue was solved, limited bandwidth to the SVN never has been.
They/very early Bill&Fleecy AInc. also 'volunteered' their lawyers to write the license as it stands, if I recall. And the whole point of the cooperation was to get blessing to carry on with the 'Amiga' mark (and be sure the new Amiga management didn't see anything they would want to jump up and complain or sue about) instead of becoming just 'Another Research OS.'
... I take it AInc's actions to collect from MS for context-menu behavior weren't successful? ;)
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Floid wrote:
... I take it AInc's actions to collect from MS for context-menu behavior weren't successful? ;)
As I understand it, Commodore-Amiga held a patent that covered the opening up of a "Drop down menu" when the right mouse button is held down.
Apple were unaffected since they didn't use a right mouse button, and M$ used context sensitive menus that only required a right click rather than the button to be held down... thus the patent was pretty useless... except against AROS and MorphOS... but it expired years ago.
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Actually the patent was about menu multiselect IIRC, or at least that is the relevant part.
I think this is the bit:
"A further object is to provide a system of the type described in which multiple menu items can be selected simply and expediently through the use of particular mouse button actuation sequences."
and specifically:
"Still further in accordance with the invention, multiple menu items can be selected during the same menu session by using a pair of mouse buttons to generate a sequence of selection commands which are utilized by unique system software to accumulate plural item selections without terminating the menu operation."
My understanding is that rest of the thing was so generic and with prior art so that it was unenforceable.
The patent in question was filed July 18, 1986, and thus expired July 18, 2006.
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So how about adjusting that statement to indicate the real reason for the limited access?
Piru is right (again). Anyone?
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Don't forget that at the time of the comment, AROS' name was basically "Amiga Operating System" with "Research" shoved in the middle. Why should AROS be allowed to call themselves "Amiga Research Operating System" if nobody else is allowed to call their OS "Amiga Operating System".
Thats what he was probably talking about, and it makes sense in the context of the lawsuit; they're talking about peoples permission to use the Amiga name and IP.
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... as an example, do you think Apple would be happy if I wrote an OS X compatible system called "Mac Research OS X"?
or Microsoft would allow "Microsoft Windows Research Vista"? Come on, they sued over "Lindows"!
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How about applications like AmigaAmp? AmigaWriter? Whatever AmigaSomething apps are out there...
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this is all restarded. 14 year old kids are more mature. I'm ashamed to be an amiga user. Ohh well at least I can get good prices for my stuff on ebay.
there is simpley nothing the amiga does better any more and will all this "legal" action about $2.50 I can only laugh as this is the ned of the amiga community.
thanks Bill M. and thanks Bill B. you guys realy sunk the boat, I hope you are happy now.
over the years I have seen
amigathlon
amigaXL
OS4.0
morphOS
Aros
pos
come and go while inc just took every oppertunity to screw things up.. hyperion, inc genisi all a buch of fools, driving good developers away with amature actions.
some you ask ofr a new amiga... we have had so many, at this time there is no point anymore.
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xeron wrote:
Don't forget that at the time of the comment, AROS' name was basically "Amiga Operating System" with "Research" shoved in the middle. Why should AROS be allowed to call themselves "Amiga Research Operating System" if nobody else is allowed to call their OS "Amiga Operating System".
Yet it doesn't make it probably illegal... it's more on the mischiefs done against MorphOS then Amiga name being used on AROS.
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itix wrote:
How about applications like AmigaAmp? AmigaWriter? Whatever AmigaSomething apps are out there...
Using someone else's trademark as part of your application name is not the smartest to do at the best of times, but for AROS is was particularly stupid.
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Amiga Research Operating System
An Operating System which is based on researches made on a given OS, namely the Amiga Operating System. You can back reference, why not put it in a name?
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@uncharted
Using someone else's trademark as part of your application name is not the smartest to do at the best of times, but for AROS is was particularly stupid.
I dont think it was stupid because AROS was ever supposed to be "serious" project. It started as a research project.
Funnily Amiga decided to sue Hyperion for trademark infringement... :-P
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itix wrote:
Funnily Amiga decided to sue Hyperion for trademark infringement... :-P
Even funnier, Hyperion +Amiga Inc (under Garry Hare) went 50/50 on lawyers fees to determine if MorphOS or AROS were illegal. :roll:
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itix wrote:
How about applications like AmigaAmp? AmigaWriter? Whatever AmigaSomething apps are out there...
They quite possibly are on dodgy ground too, but they are slightly different in that they themselves are not in competition with any of Amigas products.
AROS is an operating system, but it is not an officially endorsed Amiga operating system, and i'm pretty sure if you owned the trademark "Amiga" and the Amiga Operating System rights, you could have the same rights to sue the makers of AROS the same way Microsoft sued over Lindows.
AROS have now removed Amiga from their name, which was a sensible move in the light of a seemingly well funded and litigeous Amiga, Inc.
If this wasn't the case, why isn't ReactOS called "Microsoft Windows Research NT" ? ;-)
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xeron wrote:
If this wasn't the case, why isn't ReactOS called "Microsoft Windows Research NT" ? ;-)
Maybe cos saying 'MWRNT' sounds like you're talking whilst eating ;-)
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I doubt they're in danger, WinUAE, WinAmp, WinAce, WinZip. Are they in danger? Nope. They denote the platform they're targeted at nothing more.
You cannot stop someone from writing a compatible product which is what AROS aims to achieve. It doesn't beg, borrow or steal anything from any of the Amiga OS versions it reimplements them from scratch.
AROS is safe and this is just the same FUD that MS likes to spread from their s***e cannon about Linux. Get people riled up and scare them off the project in question is the tactic and it's vomit worthy.
Andy
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He was probably pissed because his vendor defected. :-)
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(...)the same way Microsoft sued over Lindows.
I just have two words for you:
Wrong! :-P
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itix wrote:
@uncharted
I dont think it was stupid because AROS was ever supposed to be "serious" project. It started as a research project.
So is that why it originally stood for Amiga Replacement Operating System?
http://web.archive.org/web/19980716222227/aros.fh-konstanz.de/aros/
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AJCopland wrote:
I doubt they're in danger, WinUAE, WinAmp, WinAce, WinZip. Are they in danger? Nope. They denote the platform they're targeted at nothing more.
Thats fine. I'm not arguing that point, but if someone made a product called "Microsoft Research Windows", they wouldn't get away with it, which is the *same* *thing* as AROS was until they changed their name, it was "Amiga Operating System" (ie AmigaOS), with Research shoved in the middle.
That is a legally questionable name.
You cannot stop someone from writing a compatible product which is what AROS aims to achieve.
I'm not questioning the legality of creating a compatible product. I never did. I'm just pointing out one possible reason why Everts statement, at the time, might not have been so bad.
Its a different matter now that the A in AROS stands for AROS ;-)
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Surely the A in AROS stood for Amiga because it ran on Amiga hardware not because it is Amiga OS?
Amix==Amiga Unix is one similar example off the top of my head.
Would Windows Research OS or Windows Replacement OS be killed by MS?
Anyway, as Xeron has said the A stands for AROS now. ;-)
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Wasn't Amiga UNIX published by Commodore?
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So when are this (http://www.openbsd.org/amiga.html) and this (http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/amiga/) going to feel the wrath of Amiga Stinks lawyers?
And this (http://linux-apus.sourceforge.net/) too.
They all use the trademark "Amiga" in their name and they are all Operating Systems that run on Amiga hardware like AROS.
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@AJCopland
I doubt they're in danger, WinUAE, WinAmp, WinAce, WinZip. Are they in danger? Nope. They denote the platform they're targeted at nothing more.
Simmilary we have AmiSomething programs too. But note that Windows Commander was sued by Microsoft, it's called Total Commander now.
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Nice try. They're the Amiga ports of NetBSD and OpenBSD. Thats still not quite the same as "Amiga Research Operating System". If that was valid, then anyone could call their operating system "AmigaOS".
If you're so sure that its fine, prove it by releasing a fork of ReactOS called "Microsoft Research Windows" and see how long you last.
Or, why not try and sell PCs as "Sony Research Playstation 3"?
Or maybe buy a truck load of unbranded TV sets from the far east and sell them as "Sony Research Bravias"?
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xeron wrote:
Nice try. They're the Amiga ports of NetBSD and OpenBSD. Thats still not quite the same as "Amiga Research Operating System". If that was valid, then anyone could call their operating system "AmigaOS".
If you're so sure that its fine, prove it by releasing a fork of ReactOS called "Microsoft Research Windows" and see how long you last.
Or, why not try and sell PCs as "Sony Research Playstation 3"?
Or maybe buy a truck load of unbranded TV sets from the far east and sell them as "Sony Research Bravias"?
Why do you care?
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So is that why it originally stood for Amiga Replacement Operating System?
Humm, dunno. I didnt know it was a "replacement" in the past. Though, Amiga can meam both Amiga computers and its operating system. If you ask me I read it as "replacement OS for Amiga" ;-)
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xeron wrote:
... as an example, do you think Apple would be happy if I wrote an OS X compatible system called "Mac Research OS X"?
or Microsoft would allow "Microsoft Windows Research Vista"? Come on, they sued over "Lindows"!
This is all true, but...
Whereas Windows and OS X are valuable trademarks associated with successful products, the Amiga link has become a laughable reference and something most sensible projects would want to stay well away from. All contemporary "Amiga" connotations are negative and to find anything positive to relate to people have to think back 16 years or so.
It's all pretty childish. Lots of litigation and expenditure over something that in reality has f*** all true value these days. Amiga Inc are still passing themselves off as "innovators" and what have you, but let's face it, ten minutes research can prove that's a big fat lie even to the most uninitiated.
As for Hyperion, they're just one of the many "Shady-Deals-R-Us" companies that have plagued the Amiga scene for over a decade now.
What's the point of it all, and why do people still care about these spats between clowns and losers any more?
AROS did the right thing in changing their name - it should have been done ages ago. Not because of legal threats, but because it's not really relevant any more and a millstone around their necks.
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Nice try. They're the Amiga ports of NetBSD and OpenBSD. Thats still not quite the same as "Amiga Research Operating System". If that was valid, then anyone could call their operating system "AmigaOS".
Please remember "AmigaOS" trademark was crafted in late 90s. Commodore never called it AmigaOS. It was nameless until modern times.
Or, why not try and sell PCs as "Sony Research Playstation 3"?
I think proper example would be "Playstation Research Operating System".
You should not use Amiga OS -> Amiga "R" OS intuition, it just is not right.
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Update can be found here (http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2134&start=10).
Dammy
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CannonFodder wrote:
Why do you care?
I'm just playing devils advocate and putting forward a reason why Evert would say what he did in that email.
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xeron wrote:
CannonFodder wrote:
Why do you care?
I'm just playing devils advocate and putting forward a reason why Evert would say what he did in that email.
Sorry, I thought you were riled up about it.
My bad. :-)
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better question, why does ANYBODY care?
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Having spent many years browsing various forums throughout the WWW, I've never come across one that contains so many instances of the following words:
legal
illlegal
legally
I dare say a.org contains more instances than the teamspace of a major law firm. Where does the Amiga community get this "holier than thou" approach to just about everything, be it the 1000 odd "backups" someone might have in their basement or the tit for tat battle over the Amiga name itself. I came to this site to talk about Amigas, if I want courtroom action filled with oodles of boring litigation, I'll watch Judge Judy.
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adz wrote:
Having spent many years browsing various forums throughout the WWW, I've never come across one that contains so many instances of the following words:
legal
illlegal
legally
I dare say a.org contains more instances than the teamspace of a major law firm. Where does the Amiga community get this "holier than thou" approach to just about everything, be it the 1000 odd "backups" someone might have in their basement or the tit for tat battle over the Amiga name itself. I came to this site to talk about Amigas, if I want courtroom action filled with oodles of boring litigation, I'll watch Judge Judy.
You think here is bad, BAFWorld and morons.net are much worse for sanctimonious self-righteous arm chair lawyering.
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BAFworld and morons.net are today, one and and the same.. it's an auto-segregation thing
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guru-666 wrote:
better question, why does ANYBODY care?
Because no-one wants to see AROS get caught up in a bunch of legal BS, particularly if it is easily avoided in the first place.