Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Mallette on May 23, 2007, 05:42:00 PM
-
I originally posted this in my request for help to preserve SimStation, my A4000 based simulation system. However, I thought I'd bring it up as an independent thread as I remain interested in your thoughts. There were few more dedicated Amigans than myself and I fought for a while to keep it alive. However, as a professional trainer/developer I was forced to go with the flow. Much of my success in the Windoze world has been related to my Amiga experience which lead me to expect much more that those with no experience with a true multi-tasking, stable OS with an advanced hardware architecture. My query to you follows:
My brief survey of the remnants of the Amiga culture are rather confusing. On one side, it appears to have dried to a mere puddle with only the turtles, gators, and other diehard left. OTOH, Amiga, Inc. in late news seems to be poised to launch new hardware (how many times have I heard that since '96?). They also appear to be messing in their own very vulnerable bed with lawsuits. Then, MorphOS appears to be a partisan group at odds with the orthodox Amiga crowd, but with a solution that, at least on the surface, appears good and also would appear to advance the technology.
The above might be an analogy of the Middle East.
So, my friends, of what pursuasion are you? Will ANYONE win?
Dave
-
This horse has been beaten to death and is in a cemetary right now...
-
What is the win? I think that Amiga users will decrease as it's been for 10 years. Nothing stops that major trend. But OTOH, I feel like being on winning side as long as I can use Amigas for my daily computing and who could have thought it's still possible on 2007 :) And even have new operating systems and development. For me the biggest breath was the Pegasos and MorphOS. With them I can do things which I miss on my classic setup (which is still on active use too)... like cpu intensive things like movies ;) I've tried to stay out of fights between "brothers" and enjoyed what we have. Things could be MUCH better, but they also could be MUCH worse :)
-
Die hard amigans?
I've only just been introduced to Amigas in the past two or so years (And im only 17 now...), missing out on all the good stuff in the '90s. Sigh.
Despite using PC's everywhere, and being a relative newbie, I enjoy tinkering and trying my best to put the Amiga hardware that I have accumulated to good use, as well as designing and building the odd extra interface or adaptor here and there.
Anyway, sorry about being off topic,
Regards, Hodgkinson.
-
There is only one last hope for the "Amiga" and has been for years and thats AROS (www.aros.org) at least in my opinon.
-
TjLaZer wrote:
This horse has been beaten to death and is in a cemetary right now...
And even the glue factory isn't interested...
Jason
-
I've been employed in the industrie for some years now and I can tell you there is zero demand for Amiga. There is no gap to fill there is no problem that Amiga can solve. There are plenty Operating Systems that did not go astray the last couple of years and enjoy serious support. Amiga is hobbyism; learn to live with it.
Stop wasting time :horse:
Fire up your amiga and do where she's good at. Play SWOS or something....sheejs :shrug:.....
-
the amiga is dead. It's stilla fun hobby project but there will never be new amigas. Amiga inc is a joke and morphOS is cool but nobody cares. (it's not as good as linux)
the fact of the matter is we have moved on. Linux is where most of the amiga community ended up.
linux = evolution
amiga = history
windows = housewife
-
Amiga will rise and destroy Macs and PCs by February of this year....wait that passed :-D
The Amiga is kept alive by people who love this machine but know that chances of it becoming even a moderate contender ever again in the PC market (thats if and a big huge if A-Inc came out with something new)is Very slim to none. It's a nice dream to be the computer that once again showed the world a new tech advancement and jumped to the top of the market, but alas it will more than likely never come to birth. I tell you though I do love all my Amigas and will always treasure them and use them. :love: :horse:
-
To the "beaten to death" crowd:
I hear you, and apologize for bringing up painful things. However, I am one of you in many ways and have missed much of this in the past years. Just wanted a sample of feelings. Thanks for sharing.
Erno: Not sure that is entirely true about being able to do anything the Amiga could. I've searched diligently for an animation software REMOTELY as capable as DPaint and the closest I've found is ProMotion, which is an attempt to replicate as much of DPaint as Windoze can muster. Even then, it is only a rather poor substitute...though superior to any other solution I've seen.
I rather doubt I'll use the Ami for much more than DPaint, unless I am introduced to other software of which I am unaware. But that will be enough. Having that perpective tool, color cycling (even with have to export as GIF, yuk) and the ability to rapidly move through hundreds of frames at will is something I look forward to. I am in the process of implementing on-demand interactive training for over 2,000 crew members involved in drilling all over the world, and such capability for rapid prototyping is essential.
Dave
-
Granted yes there are things that only a Miggy can do like say boot into PAL mode, allow you to change chipsets (OCS, ECS and AGA from the boot menu), actual true multi-tasking and being able to run without WB loading. Not to mention be able to reach down and shut it off without worrying about going to the menu and going to shutdown and waiting 2 yrs for the computer to turn off. The Miggy definatly is in a class all its own and unlike a PC doesnt waste its precious resources. And oh yeah I love the Dpaint series, i have done tons of anims on it.
-
Granted yes there are things that only a Miggy can do like say boot into PAL mode, allow you to change chipsets (OCS, ECS and AGA from the boot menu), actual true multi-tasking and being able to run without WB loading. Not to mention be able to reach down and shut it off without worrying about going to the menu and going to shutdown and waiting 2 yrs for the computer to turn off. The Miggy definatly is in a class all its own and unlike a PC doesnt waste its precious resources. And oh yeah I love the Dpaint series, i have done tons of anims on it.
Amigas have value. PCs are just next year's garbage.
-
These days I use photoshop and I never looked back at Dpaint. Personal preference I guess. But really the amiga has no technology to offer anymore.
As for drilling? You mean oil drilling? I've seen a pretty impresive training tool for oil platform workers. But it is based on the playstation.
-
stopthegap:
HOW TRUE! I hate to think how many peecees I've spent thousands on over the past 15 years only to wind up in the garage. I through out probably 10 last summer when I moved and the remains of many more...
Disgoosting...
-
State of amiga ???? I ques is somewhre in America ?? United States of America, one of those states is state of amiga
-
For the playstation?!?!?!?
-
Oh really?!?
I TOTALLY DISAGREE! I've seen this picture weaved before. There is NO hope to change anything because everything is all locked up by the 'big players' so there just isn't any point in trying.
Let's take a whiff of reality here of the true business landscape.
If all the Big Players had everything all figured out and nothing new could come along, how do you explain:
Google VS Microslug Yahoo! etc
Apple VS 10 years ago
Your local bakery
ROCKY
NO, I'm not inviting anyone to dispute that comebacks are impossible by the list I provided. All I'm saying is-
IT HAPPENS
ITS POSSIBLE
ITS HARD- That's why I'm disappointed with your post.
Its hard and it takes people that believe to make a difference. And you know what? DPaint ROCKS!
Why? Because its simple, fast and effective.
THAT'S an Amiga advantage right there.
:flame:
-
but what the point?
-
deBrun wrote:
Its hard and it takes people that believe to make a difference. And you know what? DPaint ROCKS!
Why? Because its simple, fast and effective.
THAT'S an Amiga advantage right there.
Sure it was, in its day, DPaint was heads and shoulders above all else, however, these days there are far better alternatives. It may be simple and fast, but it only becomes and advantage when it can offer the same functionality and flexibility as current apps.
-
DPaint was heads and shoulders above all else,
I've heard a chorus of people say Dpaint was the best, etc... So there seems to be somewhat of a consensus in that regard. What I haven't heard is similarly unanimous praise of any single "current" alternative product. I think the odds are better of being struck by lightning than seeing two people in the same room declaring "Illustrator rocks!" I suspect this is because Illustrator is massive, filled to the gills with clever but useless functions, and requires a user manual the size of 'Ana Karenina' and 'War and Peace' put together (only with more complexity). Gee, that sounds like "fun"... No thanks, I'll stick with Dpaint.
however, these days there are far better alternatives
Such as?
It may be simple and fast, but it only becomes and advantage when it can offer the same functionality and flexibility as current apps.
Dpaint is simple, fast. And fun -- fun because it is simple and fast. Its also "functional" in that it works exactly as advertised. It is also extremely flexible, thanks largely to Arexx and the modular design of the Amiga operating system. It is as functional and flexible as one's imagination. I think juxtaposing "current" apps with increased flexibility is a common mistake.
-
stopthegop wrote:
I've heard a chorus of people say Dpaint was the best, etc... So there seems to be somewhat of a consensus in that regard. What I haven't heard is similarly unanimous praise of any single "current" alternative product. I think the odds are better of being struck by lightning than seeing two people in the same room declaring "Illustrator rocks!" I suspect this is because Illustrator is massive, filled to the gills with clever but useless functions, and requires a user manual the size of 'Ana Karenina' and 'War and Peace' put together (only with more complexity). Gee, that sounds like "fun"... No thanks, I'll stick with Dpaint.
Visit any photography or digital art forum and you will hear plenty of praise for Photoshop or The Gimp. Sure they are bigger, but they are also worlds apart in terms of what you can do. Try running a digital dark room with DPaint, it just can't be done.
however, these days there are far better alternatives
Photoshop and The Gimp, as already mentioned.
Dpaint is simple, fast. And fun -- fun because it is simple and fast. Its also "functional" in that it works exactly as advertised. It is also extremely flexible, thanks largely to Arexx and the modular design of the Amiga operating system. It is as functional and flexible as one's imagination. I think juxtaposing "current" apps with increased flexibility is a common mistake.
Photoshop and The Gimp are fun, fast and work as advertised on all my machines and across multiple platforms, even my PPC version of CS2 runs great on my Intel Macbook, who'd of though ey?
Honestly, I don't know why I keep falling for your blatent trolling. What is it about you that makes you rear up every time someone points out that there are better modern alternatives?
-
Everyone who posts here is stating an opinion, but my opinion -- simply because it differs from yours -- is trolling? Thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion. Or was that trolling? Hard to say since we all have opinions. I guess trolling is done by those whose opinions you don't like?
To answer your question: It bugs me when I see computers (or technology in general) described in subjective terms as unassailable truth, especially when the subjective term(s) is juxtaposed with an actual fact so it appears the entire statement is also a fact, when it is actually nothing more than an opinion. For example:
"There are better and modern alternatives".
-True Part = "Modern"
-Subjective Part = "Better"
-Objective Intent: Modern = Better.
"There are...better alternatives...with...current apps."
-True Part: "Current"
-Subjective Part: "Better Alternatives"
-Objective Intent: Current = Better Alternative.
I'm well aware what Photoshop and The Gimp can do. My point is that 95% of what it can do, most people don't do. All that extra functionality just gets in the way and actually slows down the 5% of functions that most people do use. The same is true for most if not all "current" commercial apps. MS Office is the ultimate showcase of useless functionality.
Another aspect of "modern" computing that I simply detest is obsolescence by design. I don't know about you but I really object to the idea of spending 2 grand on a computer with an expiration date like a carton of eggs. How can you not be pissed off by that obnoxious behavior? What if the chemical properties of gasoline changed every couple of months and only brand new cars could run on the new gas, forcing people with older cars to "upgrade" their cars whether they could afford it or not?
-
Aren't Photoshop and Gimp for totally different area of graphics production than DPaint?
-
Honestly, friends, I had no intention of starting a shooting war here, especially a gut-busting, mother-loving OS war... Probably should know better, as I go back in BBS systems to BITNET and beyond.
Anyway, I see a lot of apples and oranges. I'd no more compare GIMP/Photoshop to DPaint than a tray of fixer to a paint brush. These things are COMPLIMENTARY, not competitive. Now, how anyone could consider Photoshop's interface user friendly is beyond me. I am still constantly amazed at how byzantine it can be. Simple things like batch processing require incomprehensible steps. I've been using it for YEARS and still cannot believe it at times. Nonetheless, it does marvelous things in spite of itself.
One of them is NOT animation. Creating anims with Photoshop is like building glass houses with a hammer.
Like others commenting here, I keep hearing some say "there are equal or better tools available." However, either none are referenced or those that are not only not better, they are often not even of the same genre.
Using ProMotion a while back, it suddenly occured to me that (unless you codeheads can explain otherwise) the only reason we cannot cycle indexed color in Windows is the lack of a DOS-level (yeah, I know, no DOS in Windows...right!) switch to activate it outside of software. Is this correct? Seems many too young to remember such things don't even understand what a powerful tool it was to have something that required little or no system resource to perform beautiful things. Those 256 color cycle palettes in HAM-E could be mesmerizing!
Finally, switching gears but still related...
I recall in the early 80's while doing graduate work at UNT in Denton, Texas I'd go into the K-Mart and see a wondrous thing. Cowboys with their familys passing by the Commordore 64 display and grabbing a 64, several software cartridges, and dropping them in the cart along with the beer, towels, and motor oil. Even on their budget, it did not represent much of a stretch. I thought the world of common computing for everyone was here.
Amiga aside, even a 64 would provide the AVERAGE user with a machine capable of doing everything the average world citizen needs today in a stable, reliable, environment. A 2007 64 would likely have the guts tucked under the 10 key in a cranny... Problem? Drop it in the trash and get another out of the cupboard.
Most of the discussion I've seen here, regardless of the position of the proponent or protagonist, do not recognize that we've essentially been frozen in time for going on 20 years. Peripherals have advanced mightily, as have many other things, but AutoCAD runs no faster (sometimes slower) on my 3.8gHz behemoth than the AutoCAD (which did 90% of the same work) I first ran from dual floppy drives on a 10mHz XT at the National University of Singapore in 1985.
That is truly sad, my friends.
The Amiga is dead, and I have INFINITELY more faith that Jesus will show up at the UN tomorrow than I have in its potential for resurrection with the mighty Satan firmly in control (no offense intended to anyone with these references). OTOH, I am equally convinced no other machine is even close to being equal and I sometimes wish I'd never heard of it when I get a "We're sorry, Windows can't find its butt with both hands" message.
JMOH
-
stopthegop wrote:
Everyone who posts here is stating an opinion, but my opinion -- simply because it differs from yours -- is trolling? Thats fine, you're entitled to your opinion. Or was that trolling? Hard to say since we all have opinions. I guess trolling is done by those whose opinions you don't like?
Granted we all have different opinions, perhaps it has something to with the way I interpret your style of posting.
To answer your question: It bugs me when I see computers (or technology in general) described in subjective terms as unassailable truth, especially when the subjective term(s) is juxtaposed with an actual fact so it appears the entire statement is also a fact, when it is actually nothing more than an opinion. For example:
"There are better and modern alternatives".
-True Part = "Modern"
-Subjective Part = "Better"
-Objective Intent: Modern = Better.
"There are...better alternatives...with...current apps."
-True Part: "Current"
-Subjective Part: "Better Alternatives"
-Objective Intent: Current = Better Alternative.
Well from my point of view all the extra functionality makes for a better product, I don't just assume that modern = better.
I'm well aware what Photoshop and The Gimp can do. My point is that 95% of what it can do, most people don't do. All that extra functionality just gets in the way and actually slows down the 5% of functions that most people do use. The same is true for most if not all "current" commercial apps.
Well, in my case it is the other way round, although I'm sure at some stage I'll find a use for the 5% that I currently have no use for.
MS Office is the ultimate showcase of useless functionality.
Oh my god, we actually agree on something :-o :lol:
@pVC
From what I've seen, anything you can do with DPaint, can be done with Photoshop, The Gimp, PaintShop etc. etc.
-
Doppie1200 wrote:
These days I use photoshop and I never looked back at Dpaint. Personal preference I guess. But really the amiga has no technology to offer anymore.
As for drilling? You mean oil drilling? I've seen a pretty impresive training tool for oil platform workers. But it is based on the playstation.
Erno:
Just noticed your reference to drilling. I am just wrapping up Phase 1 (of 3) phases of a drilling simulator written in Opus (Rule Brittania!), an authoring language I am certain has Amiga roots somewhere. It will be "best in class" when completed.
In 1996 I completed Production Safety Systems Training which simulated the safety systems of an offshore platform. It was coded in CanDo on the Amiga. CanDo was a non-timeline based language of extraordinary flexibility that took full advantage of multi-threaded multi-tasking like nothing I've seen since. The machine that brought me to this community was designed to run this application. It was (to my knowledge) the first U.S. federally certified system for meeting a legal requirement for certification. In fact, I re-wrote parts of the Code of Federal Regulations to account for interactive (average 12 hours to complete) as opposed to the "old" classroom hours (40) to meet the requirement. The program cost 2.5 million at the time, but was so successful that Shell, Mobil, UNOCAL, Marathon, Pennzoil, and Chevron ponied up 500,000.00 each within a year to get a piece of it. That paid for it. Then, they wanted it ported to Windows. I took a 500,000.00 contract to do this in 12 months. I expected to make 150,000.00 or so as all the elements were there. Little did I realize how incompetent Windows 95 was. Simple things like independently controlled multiple sounds were not possible. We had to pay some of Paul Allen's nerds 10,000.00 to write an API (later included in 95 SP2) to allow this. And that was just one hurdle. We completed it on time and it has been in continous use on Windows (at 350.00 per student) ever since, though nowhere nearly as smoothly as on its native Amiga platform.
At the time my patron (ARCO) was sucked up by BP (who could care less about training) I was designing a VR version with Internet reporting to the government. Would have been cool...3D monitor glasses so one could "walk" up and down stairs to access things. Easy on the Amiga, but still very problematic and expensive on WinTel. VR was something I expected to be ubiqitous within a decade...but has been moribund since those heady times.
'nough nostalgia. I have an Aerial Work Platform simulator to complete.
-
@Malette:
I like your views here, as I like stopthegop's views now and in the past, you guys say what I think, and use and write sentences of what I want to say on here, but can not due to me not being able to place words at the right times in my sentences.
Also to note, even in my other post, Im sure if one of you went to it, that youd be able to word it the way Id like to spit it to other amigians out there.
Amiga is Amiga, like mac is mac, and microsoft is microsoft.
Now Bill Gates virtually owns Mac these days, so, in reality and effectively he will surely one day own all of mac, and microsoft, and that could lead to disaster for those of us that really detest windows OS's.
Ironic how life goes, things that are too good or different, the normal sea of fish wont buy, and then those truly amazing good things die out over time.
Im glad I am not like many here or anywhere, I would hate to think that I am like the rest of the sea, I like being different, this is me, it is what I am. I like oldschool cars or some new ones that are limited on the roads.
Well, Im sure there are others on here that are not like the sea of fish, but they keep quiet, good on you guys, dont let the normal sea of fish spit negative towards you, because once they do, it will never stop!
I think there is a chance that the two Amiga systems will come out, but Nobody seems to be sure, the only real people that know is Bill McWen and perhaps Amiga Inc's Partners in business.
What I do know is, in the recent 8 months or so, I have seen the most action taken from Amiga Inc in regards to the Amiga Name.
In the end though, I just hope I can buy the upper end system with OS4, so that I finally have a modernish computer that I will not need to replace every year, but perhaps can have for ten years!
Cheers!! 8-) 8-)
And all of you are great people in your own ways, im sure of it, just, not all people get along, that's all.
-
@Mallette
Anyway, I see a lot of apples and oranges. I'd no more compare GIMP/Photoshop to DPaint than a tray of fixer to a paint brush. These things are COMPLIMENTARY, not competitive.
[...]
Like others commenting here, I keep hearing some say "there are equal or better tools available." However, either none are referenced or those that are not only not better, they are often not even of the same genre.
Too true. But, of course, one may ask why no one has built a better horse-buggy in the past 100 years. I mean, a car isn't really a direct drop-in replacement for all functionality, is it?
Photoshop and DPaint are very different experiences and have different strengths. That doesn't necessarily mean that one can't supersede the other for most purposes, though. There are some things (like Pixel art and animation) that are much easier in the DPaint environment. However, for the majority of work, Photoshop gives great results with much more overall flexibility in a fraction of the total time. This has caused it to become the "good enough" solution, with all the positive and negative connotations that go with that statement.
Amiga aside, even a 64 would provide the AVERAGE user with a machine capable of doing everything the average world citizen needs today in a stable, reliable, environment. A 2007 64 would likely have the guts tucked under the 10 key in a cranny... Problem? Drop it in the trash and get another out of the cupboard.
Yeah, I've thought about that, too. It's a whole different view of "computing as a commodity" than what we ended up with. In a lot of ways, I really wish this view would have caught on more. The average person doesn't really need all the power and flexibility of a full computer. In fact, they get in a lot of trouble with not knowing how to handle it. (Spyware, viruses, etc.) A tight, lean, purpose-built machine would be more resilient to these hazards.
Peripherals have advanced mightily, as have many other things, but AutoCAD runs no faster (sometimes slower) on my 3.8gHz behemoth than the AutoCAD (which did 90% of the same work) I first ran from dual floppy drives on a 10mHz XT at the National University of Singapore in 1985.
Now, I'd HIGHLY disagree here. The one thing I LOVE about the modern x86 (x64, or whatever) is the raw power of the platform. Taking that AutoCAD, it's now possible to create complex meshes and surfaces containing millions of points. Heck, it's a breeze to make them into complex volumetric solids and export them to the CFD model and run some heat or flow analysis in a few minutes, even. Try THAT on the XT. Better not exceed a couple hundred data points before that massive 16MB of RAM dries up. Nevermind CFD models, a simple AutoShade picture was a multi-day affair.
OTOH, I am equally convinced no other machine is even close to being equal and I sometimes wish I'd never heard of it [Amiga] when I get a "We're sorry, Windows can't find its butt with both hands" message.
HAHA! This is so true. I was cussing out Windows up and down for one of those stupid moments back a couple months ago. My wife asked me "If Windows is so bad, what's better?" I stopped and thought about it for a moment. The best I could come up with is "Well, nothing anymore, really. I just always thought computing would turn out differently."
-
As you so eloquently put it, we are largely agreed.
Few points:
DPaint/Photoshop - Again, I see these as complimentary. Whether on the Amiga or anything else I never found ANY one stop software. It takes the best of several packages to get the job done. Problem is that the best functions of DPaint are not possible or not available in Photoshop, not simply under represented...and that is true in the inverse as well. But my particular profession needs those DPaint functions.
As to AutoCAD, you compared the 10% I left out that did not exist at the time. I did not then nor do I now use or require 3D functionality from AutoCAD. Just 2D P&ID's. The old XT chip and math copper handled the math just fine, though the screen redraws could be slow...but, of course, those were due to the graphics cards, not the CPU. I still have a hundred or more large scale drawings done at that time and the only difference now is more colors and faster screen refreshes...and the awful Windows interface.
Finally, your wife's comment is germane. The masses don't have a clue. Windows is all they've ever known. Most of my peers think I am rather eccentric for my well known hatred of Microsoft. I try to keep my mouth shut, as I have NOTHING nice to say. Occasionally someone says "Well, at least he brought conformity" and I must bite my tongue severely to avoid asking if they admire Hitler for the same reason...
Kind regards,
Dave
-
HAHA! This is so true. I was cussing out Windows up and down for one of those stupid moments back a couple months ago. My wife asked me "If Windows is so bad, what's better?" I stopped and thought about it for a moment. The best I could come up with is "Well, nothing anymore, really. I just always thought computing would turn out differently."
What about MacOS X? Or Linux?
Varthall
-
Linux is one big kludge.
-
Mallette:
Going completely of topic but the topic is useless anyway;
Very cool application you describe there. The application that was demonstrated to me had the goal to train drilling platform workers on-shore.
The idea was that they could move around in a 3d-world that is a 100% replica of the drilling platform where they are going to be stationed. This way they could get to know the environment in an interactive way. The whole application was to run on a playstation based platform so it would be very easy to produce and maintain.
I doubt this project has amiga roots.
Those concerned:
Back to the topic.
This is my view and this is the last thread I'll post this. The story is in danger of getting older than my car.
Amiga had a innovative leading edge (in 1984 remember this!)
Commodore couldn't sell water in the desert and bought Amiga
Commodore milked amiga for all it was worth.
Commodore went bust in (was it 1993?)
Amiga did not have the innovative leading edge
Amiga stood still since then.
Amiga lost fame and name since then.
So, if something is resurrected and manages to fill a niche market it is not a very good idea to call it Amiga.
Since I think there is no problem to solve and no demand to satisfy Amiga will remain as is.
One word on DPaint. It runs fine on my A1200, if it is that great I can highly recommend the machine. There is no need to create a new amiga. The old one is sufficient.
-
Yeah, I regret the name of this thread...
I've reviewed a few threads and have learned a lot. Perhaps the single most devisive bar I've ever had a couple in. I was such an Amiga head it dang near killed me when when the S.S. Commodore hit (or was steered into) an iceberg well underway to winning the race. I'd made a couple of hundred grand off it and was just getting started. However, that was a LONG time ago now and I am comfortable that I can have a snort from time to time without being drawn into mainlining. If the extreme left here REALLY believed what they say, the babblings of the dreamers wouldn't bother them or they'd just go away. And the dreamers...well, they abide elsewhere anyway, don't they? Why does anyone discuss advanced avionics with a happy lunatic? Either you are not fully convinced they are insane, or short a few cards in your own deck.
Yeah, I guess it makes me sound as though I am "above all this." I can certainly identify with almost everyone here, as I've been through denial, rage, hope, and acceptance. Now, like Pooh, I simply AM.
Forget the religious implications of this well-known quote, but consider the philosophical wisdom and its particular appropriateness here:
(Fill in your favorite diety or leave blank), grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change, courage to change the things we can, and wisdom to know the difference.
-
@adz
Like easy pixel by pixel work? Good palette handling for non true color formats?
There's more PS/Gimp like programs for Amiga too (ImageFX, ArtEffect, FXPaint, TVPaint, Photogenics, XiPaint, etcetc), but they're more for image processing and truecolor painting etc. For completely different job than DPaint/PPaint/Brilliance/etc pixel exact painters/animators, IMHO.
-
But my particular profession needs those DPaint functions.
Yeah, don't get me wrong. If you ABSOLUTELY NEED cel animation or pixel art, there are slim pickin's nowadays. The problem is that these things are coming to be a lost art, in general. Outside the demo scene, I haven't seen anyone do serious pixel work in 10 years. And as for animation, the current trends have gone toward the Dreamworks-style 3d rendering. Heck, even the kids' Sunday morning cartoons are mostly 3d rendered, nowadays. Just the same, you could say no one has written any ASCII art programs in years... If you NEED to make a new ASCII image (an NFO file, maybe?) you're just out of luck. ;-)
As to AutoCAD, you compared the 10% I left out that did not exist at the time.
Well, line drawings on AutoCAD are largely unchanged in the time since its early versions... But I'd say it's a lot more than 10% that didn't exist back then. The whole modern drawing methodology wasn't possible just 15 or 20 years ago. Back then, due to the hardware, people only did lines.
Nowadays, it's a whole new set of rules, though. A buddy of mine is a civil engineer. He uses AutoCAD with a civil pack and does full 3d models of the building plan, complete with parking lots, existing conditions, utilities, etc., He takes the 3d model, and from it can calculate required grades, green space requirements, run-off basins, etc., all in the package. These drawings can be multi-acre 3d topo's. You can then use the drawings to pull promotional images of the final layouts, and all sorts of other neat things, too.
Plus all the advantages on the mechanical side. Full detail 3D models open so many possibilities. Rapid prototyping is really heating up. Pretty soon it'll get to a stage where you can prototype a part out of an actual material that would be useful. (Say aluminum vs. the current soft plastics.) But nowadays, everything is being drawn, tested, virtually assembled, and possibly even prototyped from that virtual 3d model before it ever hits any production.
And for CFD and analysis, a modest x86 can pack more than the computing punch of a 15 years' ago Cray or big-ticket SGI, while sitting on the corner of your desk for under $1,000. THAT is an impressive feat that opens some doors to new ways of doing things.
Most of my peers think I am rather eccentric for my well known hatred of Microsoft. I try to keep my mouth shut, as I have NOTHING nice to say.
I LOVE my Amigas. There are certainly things about them I miss in modern PCs. But I don't really have a hatred for Microsoft or the modern PC. It's just a different evolution that's yielded some different things.
And do we really know that the results are all THAT different? If DPaint were still in production, would it still be the program we love, or would have been dropped due to lack of sales? Might it have morphed into a Photoshop competitor? For most applications, it seems that the demand of features shapes what direction programs head in. Most of the things lacking in new software are lacking because they are no longer commonly used. Even IF there were a strong Amiga and DPaint, would you still be stuck back at V6 or maybe a V7 because these features were de-emphasized/re-featured? It's all a possibility...
Of course, the counter-argument is always that no one is requesting these features because no one ever knew they once existed. Also a possibility. It's the only way I can fathom the 5 billion features in Word, yet no good Final Writer style dictionary/thesaurus. :lol:
Occasionally someone says "Well, at least he brought conformity" and I must bite my tongue severely to avoid asking if they admire Hitler for the same reason...
:lol: Yeah, I'd say we could all agree that a lack of diversity is rarely a good thing.
-
guru-666 wrote:
the fact of the matter is we have moved on. Linux is where most of the amiga community ended up.
Or Macs, from what I've heard and read.
Mallette wrote:
stopthegap:
HOW TRUE! I hate to think how many peecees I've spent thousands on over the past 15 years only to wind up in the garage. I through out probably 10 last summer when I moved and the remains of many more...
Disgoosting...
In the past 10 years or more, I am now on my 3rd custom built PC. I still have hardware in this new PC I built that is rather old. But the PC I just built will last me for the next 5 years or so. And my former PC is now my daughter's computer.
So I disagree, today's PC is not next year's trash (unless you buy it from Wal-Mart). When I build a PC, I purposely try to keep room for future expansion and upgrades. I don't want to trash anything out. I try to get my money's worth and extend the life as long as possible. I learned this from my years of owning an Amiga. :-D
-
If someone truely wanted to honor the Amiga, is would be to write an Amiga type OS on the x86 platform.
Not compatable with the old amiga's apps, but in the spirit of what was probably the best ever OS to grace a home computer.
Windows sucks, badly.
Linux is nice and all, but as a desktop it will probably never become anything decent.
I say do it OS X style, take a great Unix base and build up the New Amiga OS.
Screw needing to spend money on new hardware, screw these promises that are nothing but wishful thinking.
I know it's not going to happen, but it's what I think would be best anyways.
but then, you never know. If the bases of an OS that wasn't bloatful, and ran fast in very little memory, got spread around that ran on machines people owned, their might be more people into working on it.
But like I said, won't happen. People with the money want to waste it on exotic hardware that no one owns, or can afford to buy, or stupid plans that really have no chance of working.
If the people who own Amiga now really cared about those of use who have been using them for the last couple of decades, they would of made development for it as cheap as possible, if not free to download.]
So accept that we are on our own, like we have been for the last decade.
If people are serious about some sort of modern Amiga, thats fine, but be smart about it. It's not about the hardware anymore, those days have been long over, it's all about the OS and a low cost.
-
@ Nyder:
Its about a lot more than what you say.
There are people who wish to own a new amiga komputer for a reason, because they wont to show their friends that its all the Amiga branded names, and not just X86 that you can pick up from the local swapmeet.
Having said that, I can undertand how your idea still has good reasoning behind it, I kinda just said it also, SWAPMEETS!
-
@ Starfoxx:
You are obviously no gamer, if you want to run Oblivion on you 5 year old hardware, it wont happen.
Ccccccccccccccyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :-D
-
llwrath:
Eloquent response, well written. Only a few comments. (Editors Comment: That was before I went ballistic... :oops:)
I do not use AutoCAD anymore as it is far too expensive for the P&ID's, flowcharts, etc. I need. I miss it, but Visio does the job and imports dwg file (sort of) when required. I was a command line AutoCAD user and loved that, but things move on.
"But I don't really have a hatred for Microsoft or the modern PC. It's just a different evolution that's yielded some different things."
In spite of my claim to have accepted living in a computing world where advances in OS stopped 15 years ago, that statement stirs me. Those "different things" are an archaic kernel still reliant on virtual memory in a world flooded with the real thing, dirt cheap. It was an awful idea even when memory wasn't so cheap. "You have to restart your computer for these changes to take effect. Would you like to restart your computer now?" But OF COURSE I WOULD, I LIVE to restart my computer. See, you did it, brought out the hatred in my soul (deep breath, Credo in Latin in the brain for a moment).
"Of course, the counter-argument is always that no one is requesting these features because no one ever knew they once existed. Also a possibility. It's the only way I can fathom the 5 billion features in Word, yet no good Final Writer style dictionary/thesaurus."
You are on to something there. The majority of computer users today have nothing to compare thier experiences with. The big lie has triumphed in a way no novelist could possibly emulate. People expect their machines to go south a couple of times a day, and to have to reboot after every little thing, and to have Microsoft constantly checking to see if they are "Genuine." My God, I am a Texan and such assumptions about my honesty bring out the worst assumptions of the rest of the world about us. This OS is designed to produce a constant revenue stream and force replacement as often as possible by either simply saying "that's 5 years old and we don't support it anymore" and changing things to where it just doesn't work, putting and endless SN that serves only to get separated from the disk that requires it and has no function other than to make it useless, or losing the disk such the SN you have is no good...
OK, I've probably worn out my welcome in three days here already. I will try to behave. About the only trolling (and I do NOT mean you, llwrath!) I am likely to succumb to is ANYTHING suggesting Windows has some useful feature. I am a sucker for that, as I just demonstrated... At least I minimized my greivance list. The complete one requires more bandwidth than I have available.
Regards,
Dave
-
Eloquent response, well written.
Yours, as well. I consider it one of the more interesting threads I've been in for a while.
Those "different things" are an archaic kernel still reliant on virtual memory in a world flooded with the real thing, dirt cheap. It was an awful idea even when memory wasn't so cheap.
True points. The kernel probably isn't everything I'd hope for. But then again, I'm not really sure what WOULD be. The Amiga was lacking here, too, what with apps being able to cause an instant guru and knocking down the system. Despite the numerous app errors, I haven't had my XP workstation bluescreen (guru equivalent) since an ill-tempered corrupt MediaPlayer CODEC brought things crashing to a halt a couple years ago. It's hard to blame an OS for crashing when it has a corrupt system file. Of course, one could also question why Microsoft chose to have MediaPlayer CODECS interact at that deep of a level of the system...
Virtual memory. Repeat the Microsoft mantra. "It allows the lesser used items in RAM to be swapped to disk so there is more RAM available for the overall system." This sounds great in theory. But, I agree, in practice it doesn't make much sense in any system. On the older boxes, disk access was at such a resource penalty that it caused a rather severe performance hit. And on modern systems, you can have enough RAM that things shouldn't need to be swapped out. Yet the system still does, so it can free up more system RAM to use for buffering your common hard drive accesses, presumably speeding up your swap? :lol: What the heck kind of logic is that?! I totally agree, the VM model needs a massive rethink and re-tuning.
The big lie has triumphed in a way no novelist could possibly emulate. People expect their machines to go south a couple of times a day[...]
No offense, but who are these people that have their machines go south a few times a day? My workstation (XP Pro) has been up and running for the past week and is still crisp, responsive and stable. My media server (2k3 Server) has been up and serving files (streaming video, mp3, TiVo desktop, etc) for nearly a month now, and was last rebooted because the power went out during a thunderstorm and the APC UPS sent it a shutdown command. I never got that kind of uptime from an Amiga. Even my 4000 wouldn't go more than a day or two before memory fragmentation would start hurting performance. Viruses and spyware will send your Windows build south in a hurry, but really, some standard safety practices and a decent NAT hardware firewall are all the defense you need against that.
and to have Microsoft constantly checking to see if they are "Genuine." My God, I am a Texan and such assumptions about my honesty bring out the worst assumptions of the rest of the world about us.
Yeah, I'll agree here. I really hate the "Genuine Advantage" crapola, and consider it spyware, as well. That's a KB update that none of my Windows boxes have gotten. You don't actually need it. There are alternate ways to get to the KB downloads that require "Genuine," if for some reason there is one you really need.
This OS is designed to produce a constant revenue stream[...]
Yeah, again, another complete agreement. Microsoft is testing the waters of the "software as a service" idea. Personally, I hope it falls flat on its face and dies as quickly as possible. I like my software being MINE, and I want it to stay that way. I think a lot of people think this way. If Microsoft pushes too hard, I can see them chasing a lot of people to Open Source, simply because of the issue of control. IMHO, this could also be a good thing. ;-)
putting and endless SN that serves only to get separated from the disk that requires it and has no function other than to make it useless, or losing the disk such the SN you have is no good...
"Please enter word 3 from paragraph 2 on page 61 of the manual." How about a dongle that takes up a joystick port and endangers fragile CIA chips? Stupid crap like this has been around forever and isn't exclusive to Microsoft. :lol:
OK, I've probably worn out my welcome in three days here already. I will try to behave.
Naw... I doubt it. You post some fresh views and interesting ideas and support them well. :-) You've gotten 3 long-winded responses from me in a single day. I can't remember the last time that's happened. And you've reminded me of a few other things I really hate about Windows that I've turned a blind eye to, in order to not be as depressed. [sarcastic]Thanks a bunch.[/sarcastic] :lol:
-
Thank you sir.
I think I'll leave this thread on idle. Frankly, I feel I've been give a bit of a pass by some of the old timers here and don't wish to push it. :-D
I intend to hang around through the resurrection of the SimStation at least, and perhaps longer if I really put it to use. While the Amiga puddle has shrunk over the years, this appears to be the place where the best (I still have an Amiga T-Shirt with "The Computer for the Best of Us" on it, if anyone remembers that...) have retreated.
Maybe it's the place to leave a line in the water. You never know, maybe the Amiga WILL rise again, and bats might fly outta my butt. It could happen... :-o
Regards to all,
Dave
-
Hey...I got my first stripe! :lol:
-
Graphics programs
Photoshop - especially for photos, transparent images a snap, lighten, clean photos, crop, enlarge, etc. How would dpaint do with a 7 MP jpeg? Is there anything on the Amiga that would handle an 8 MP raw image? Photshop does without skipping a beat.
TV Paint - The Amiga version is missing two thirds of the features of the Mac or PC version, (scanner support, mp3 support, Multiplane camera, Rotating project, Toon Shadding, Add Border, Scan Cleaner, Lens Flare). You can't even do animation in the amiga version.
Illustrator, curves, automatic colour harmonies, tracing, this is the key with illustrator, take a bitmap image and trace it making a vector based image.
Fireworks, the web developers tool, add hotspots, etc. It's vector based like photoshop.
I can't take a camera, download the photos and edit them on an Amiga, pretty standard stuff. I can't develop website images etc.
-
AmigaRises wrote:
@ Starfoxx:
You are obviously no gamer, if you want to run Oblivion on you 5 year old hardware, it wont happen.
Ccccccccccccccyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :-D
I didn't give you the specs of my hardware, and most of it is brand new.
And yes, I can run Oblivion just fine, thank you very much. :lol:
-
Amiga has to get out of here (http://www.russellhallarchitects.com.au/archives/000024.html) first
-
@persia
Why can't you? I can take camera and download photos with Amiga easily (done that with about ten cameras and all have worked either with PTP or USB mass storage), I can edit them as I need and I can create web pages either automatically or by hand from batch converted images etc. As you said, basic stuff, which can also be made with Amiga.
TVPaint... uhm.. why should paint program support mp3? And for scanning there's different programs.
For massive pictures, you probably need to take some program which has internal virtual memory system, like ArtEffect.
But anyway, slipping again from the original still not answered question, is there modern equivalent for DPaint, which does easy pixelling? For example for (animated) gifs and other web graphics, icon desingning, game gfx, etc possibly low color and small size pixel editing.
For other uses like photo editing etc there are much better alternatives than DPaint on Amiga too.
-
Brilliance under euae
runs like a snail on my G4 A1 though.
-
Nice thread - interesting reading.
Ilwrath wrote:
What the heck kind of logic is that?! I totally agree, the VM model needs a massive rethink and re-tuning.
Nah the VM is actually a lot more clever than you give it credit for. What it's doing is using idle cycles to swap out data that may need to be swapped. This means that should an application need to be swapped out it's already written some or all of it to disk which like you said, is much slower than RAM.
I don't like the way some things have gone in the last 15 years - I'm a programmer and the form-over-function mentality sometimes gives me a headache. People concern themselves with what it looks like and only when they're happy with the polish do they ask whether it works. What I'd do for the days that us nerds were revered with awe and people regarded what we did as purely magical. Now people expect overengineered miracles, performed overnight for free. (or at least, cheaply)
That said I think you're undervaluing the leaps and bounds that have been made in this industry and as much as I enjoy my Amiga there is not a single application on it (including DPaint) that hasn't been replaced with something that, in the right hands, is better*. Things really ARE faster. Sure it may be that you don't use 90% of features in a given application but someone does, and maybe you should learn some of them - remember the day you learned that you could copy and paste text instead of deleting and rewriting paragraphs? Look, palette shifting is nifty, and certainly was a clever way of simulating animation on limited hardware but I can't honestly think of an application for this that wouldn't be better served by a more dedicated animation program. I support the use of the right tool for the job, and that may well be DPaint if that's what you're good at.
I do suspect, however, that if DPaint is the 'right tool for the job', there's someone who can do the job for you faster and/or to a higher standard in Photoshop (or Flash or 3D Studio etc.) It would have to be a pretty exceptional job for this not to be the case.
My Amiga is great. It truly was the last computer I really had fun with (until I bought an A4000 on ebay, that is :-)) It's a fantastic hobby, but my work demands more than it can give.
* Oh, with the exception of GCC, which is ported from elsewhere anyway.
-
"Nah the VM is actually a lot more clever than you give it credit for. What it's doing is using idle cycles to swap out data that may need to be swapped. This means that should an application need to be swapped out it's already written some or all of it to disk which like you said, is much slower than RAM."
Perhaps you missed the point. There is absolute no need for the VM, period. I don't want "clever" VM, I don't want VM at all. Any computer that cannot simply be turned OFF is asking for trouble, and I've had my share.
Dave
-
How would you edit the 8 to 12 MP raw image that most serious photographers use today?
How would you make a Flash presentation?
-
@Persia
Why are you so hell-bent on finding things that the Amiga can't do? We all know just how capable (or not) the Amiga is thank you very much.
persia wrote:
How would you make a Flash presentation?
Why would anyone want to make a presentation in Flash when there are far better options?
-
uncharted wrote:
@Persia
Why are you so hell-bent on finding things that the Amiga can't do? We all know just how capable (or not) the Amiga is thank you very much.
persia wrote:
How would you make a Flash presentation?
Why would anyone want to make a presentation in Flash when there are far better options?
I am another rare bird these days who finds Flash far too limiting to be useful.
Aside from that it brings up a question I've been wondering about. Does GigaMem or anything similar still exist for the Amiga? I used it big time in the auld days with no problems. Of course, things slowed down when you reached end of volatile memory and started out to disk, but that was not so important as the fact you could do it at all. I remember you could have any program use only RAM, RAM + HDD, HDD, HDD + RAM. Nothing like that has ever surfaced on the peecee.
Dave
-
How would you edit the 8 to 12 MP raw image that most serious photographers use today?
Good photographers don't "edit" their pictures. Its cheating. Besides, really serious photograhers use both analog as well as digital cameras. For expediency, digital rules. For artistic perfection, nothing beats a great analog camera (http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/r9/). Or hybrid in this case.
How would you make a Flash presentation?
Use a peecee. Assuming, of course, that I wanted to make a Flash Irritation (err, I mean 'presentation').
-
Mallette wrote:
Perhaps you missed the point. There is absolute no need for the VM, period. I don't want "clever" VM, I don't want VM at all. Any computer that cannot simply be turned OFF is asking for trouble, and I've had my share.
Yeah fair call - no I wasn't responding to your point, I was just pointing out to someone else that the way the VM worked was for a good reason not just dumbly swapping everything.
I don't think VM is to blame for not being able to just turn your machine off - for example you can use a linux "Live CD" with a swapfile or swap partition and suffer no issues if you just flick the switch. Next time you boot the swap is reinitialized and you're good to go.
The issues all seem to be caused by uncommitted writes in write buffers when the power is pulled - lose the buffers and you lose a lot of performance - or daemons ('services' on Windows) that won't write their final status to disk unless asked to by a shutdown command.
The same is true on an Amiga though, you can really break something if it's writing a file when you turn it off.
I think you're right though - there's no equivalent in today's modern OSes. The closest that spring to mind are the embedded or portable OSes (PalmOS, WinCE), followed by the likes of MacOS that suspend cleanly (yeah, it's a bit like shutting down). Does anyone else use an OS that you can "just turn off" other than your Amigas?
Does anyone know how AROS handles this?
-
Mallette wrote:
I remember you could have any program use only RAM, RAM + HDD, HDD, HDD + RAM. Nothing like that has ever surfaced on the peecee.
There used to be "Ram Doubler" programs on the PC too but all the more modern implementations of OSes have VM built in. It's usually called a pagefile on Windows and swap on Linux, for example. Linux will let you mess with its swapping strategy (allowing you to do the RAM, RAM+HDD, HDD etc) but you probably don't want to - it turns out that it's much better at memory allocation and optimizing VM usage than I am.
-
I don't mean what is now understood as "VM," which is neither virtual nor memory. I mean VM, as in not distinguishable from RAM.
GigaMem was totally transparent to the OS.
-
stopthegop wrote:
How would you edit the 8 to 12 MP raw image that most serious photographers use today?
Good photographers don't "edit" their pictures. Its cheating. Besides, really serious photograhers use both analog as well as digital cameras. For expediency, digital rules. For artistic perfection, nothing beats a great analog camera (http://www.leica-camera.us/photography/r_system/r9/). Or hybrid in this case.
I still use a combination of film and digital, however, with regards to 35mm, it won't be long now before it is completely defunct. I'm not saying that is a good thing, but thats what's happening. I only know a few photogs that still use film, but they are using medium and large formats, something that will thankfully be around for a very long time. On that note, in a digital darkroom (ie. ) what you are doing is no different from what medium and large format photographers do in their darkrooms, difference is you're dealing with a negative thats made up of 1's and 0's.
-
Mallette wrote:
I don't mean what is now understood as "VM," which is neither virtual nor memory. I mean VM, as in not distinguishable from RAM.
GigaMem was totally transparent to the OS.
Virtual Memory is memory that's any combination of memory physical, stored on disk etc. that's addressed as though it is all one piece of memory. Programs that run on the OS are not aware if they're being run in physical RAM or off disk.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but GigaMem was transparent to the OS as it was a method for implementing virtual memory in an operating system (AmigaOS) that didn't already support it. What I'm saying is that I think existing virtual memory schemes will work better than GigaMem ever could because they do work at the OS level and because the OS is better at slicing up the memory pie than you or I will ever be.
The one thing that I don't think I've seen done as well as on the amiga is the Datatypes. This was an excellent idea - wherein everything that used datatypes could suddenly load a JPEG by dropping in the JPEG datatype.
I want to know why haven't we seen this type of advance outside the Amiga? I think a lot of the issues are caused by vendor lock in.
Imagine if Microsoft released the Word datatype, then you could use OpenOffice or whatever you like and it would automatically understand Microsoft's Word format. You could then choose the application you want on its features, performance or interface instead of having to buy the only one that supports the format your document is in.
The datatypes really were a brilliant invention. I bought an A4000 on ebay and, as a result of datatypes, it understands PNG - a format that wasn't standardised until after Commodore sold their last Amiga. That's pretty cool.
-
what you are doing is no different from what medium and large format photographers do in their darkrooms, difference is you're dealing with a negative thats made up of 1's and 0's.
Thats true. But there's a major skill differential between the dark room editor and his photoshop counterpart. Making a convincing edit in a darkroom is like a Black Art. IMO, Photographs done this way have intrinsic value because they are "handmade" by someone who is tremendously skilled and has clearly mastered his craft. Being a skilled darkroom tech was once a fairly exclusive club. Photoshop has bestowed this power to any 3 year old. Whether thats a good or bad thing is polymical because its not going away. Don't get me wrong.. I love my digital camera and have lots of fun with editing apps (ImageFX, Photoshop, whatever..). I agree these are very powerful tools. Still, there's something very alluring about traditional photography that is simply absent with digital media. I just can't bring myself to call a digital photograph (even a very good one) "Art".
-
@stopthegop
Don't get me wrong, I love to see the creations of an old school darkroom worker, but at the same time, I think it's fair to say that being as proficient in software manipulation can be just as difficult.
-
mrescher wrote:
Mallette wrote:
I don't mean what is now understood as "VM," which is neither virtual nor memory. I mean VM, as in not distinguishable from RAM.
GigaMem was totally transparent to the OS.
Virtual Memory is memory that's any combination of memory physical, stored on disk etc. that's addressed as though it is all one piece of memory. Programs that run on the OS are not aware if they're being run in physical RAM or off disk.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but GigaMem was transparent to the OS as it was a method for implementing virtual memory in an operating system (AmigaOS) that didn't already support it. What I'm saying is that I think existing virtual memory schemes will work better than GigaMem ever could because they do work at the OS level and because the OS is better at slicing up the memory pie than you or I will ever be.
The one thing that I don't think I've seen done as well as on the amiga is the Datatypes. This was an excellent idea - wherein everything that used datatypes could suddenly load a JPEG by dropping in the JPEG datatype.
I want to know why haven't we seen this type of advance outside the Amiga? I think a lot of the issues are caused by vendor lock in.
Imagine if Microsoft released the Word datatype, then you could use OpenOffice or whatever you like and it would automatically understand Microsoft's Word format. You could then choose the application you want on its features, performance or interface instead of having to buy the only one that supports the format your document is in.
The datatypes really were a brilliant invention. I bought an A4000 on ebay and, as a result of datatypes, it understands PNG - a format that wasn't standardised until after Commodore sold their last Amiga. That's pretty cool.
Fully agree about datatypes. File compatibility in an OS is FAR more important to me than a uniform GUI as imposed by Windows. What a spreadsheet has to do with photo retouching eludes me...
Anyway, I can follow what you are saying about VM just fine, but can't tell if you ever used it. Windows implementation of "VM" is, from what I can tell, in no way comparable. When I say "transparent," I mean the only difference was speed. I've had Windows run out of memory when there was gigabytes of HD space left untouched. There was no limit on GigaMem except available drive space and the OS limitations, which I think were 1gb. I suspect you could have run every program available to the Amiga simultaneously in a gig. I certainly don't understand what you mean by Windows handling it better. As I said, GigaMem worked PERFECTLY. I do not ever recall being able to notice it at work except the drive starting to run flat out when it came into play. The memory optimizers for Windows and such are poor comparisons, IMOH.
Dave
-
Mallette wrote:
I've had Windows run out of memory when there was gigabytes of HD space left untouched. There was no limit on GigaMem except available drive space and the OS limitations, which I think were 1gb. I suspect you could have run every program available to the Amiga simultaneously in a gig. I certainly don't understand what you mean by Windows handling it better.
I guess all I'm saying is that I believe you perceive Windows to be that much worse because it's trying to do a whole lot more. I don't meant to sound argumentative - Windows, MacOS and Linux are all heavier on the system than AmigaOS ever was but I'm just trying to be fair, they also do a lot more too - have a built in TCP stack, 3d acceleration, address more memory and hard disk space, drive higher screen resolutions, recover when applications leak memory - even under emulation they can run several instances of AmigaOS in isolation. Most of the issues I see day-to-day are caused by bloated software, not the OS itself - it's miraculous that some of that stuff runs at all. The main thing that kills performance for me on a modern Windows system is the virus/email-scanner-with-firewall-thingum but that's an ENTIRELY different story.
That's not to detract from how great the AmigaOS was. I'm sure there are lessons that the modern OSes could still learn from it today.
-
Well, I'd be the first to admit I am no expert on such things. I know when they work and when they don't, why is a question for true High Nerds. I am just a wannabe...
I am messing around with Ubuntu right to see if it is ready for prime time. I was surprised to see it required a swap file. I still do not understand why when RAM is dirt cheap. You'd think they'd at least allow an option to use physical memory.
I still say any OS that cannot be shut down with the power switch is an accident that WILL happen.
Dave
-
Mallette wrote:
I still say any OS that cannot be shut down with the power switch is an accident that WILL happen.
Dave
I've worried about that too, but I've had times where my desktop HAD to be turned off because it froze. Boot it back up and it was fine. There were times when the battery on my laptop ran out of power. Most of the time I can switch the battery and keep going, but other times it actually turns it off and I have to boot back up. So far, everything is okay.
-
@Mallette
Hey that's cool. Completely agree with the sentiment, just not necessarily on the technicalities.
Good call on Ubuntu. Most of my work (like this lively post, for example!) is done on Ubuntu or Debian (on which Ubuntu is based). This laptop runs Ubuntu anyway and I do like it;
This is where Linux comes into it's own, since you can change what you don't like... you CAN stop it swapping if you really want to.
If you type
sudo swapoff -a
it will disable all swap until you reboot.
sudo swapon -a
to turn it back on again. If you have tonnes of RAM and really want to make it permanent I can tell you how. (This doesn't make it any 'safer' to just turn the computer off at the power though).
I still say any OS that cannot be shut down with the power switch is an accident that WILL happen.
Yes. It does. Lots. :-)
-
@Persia
"I can't take a camera, download the photos and edit them on an Amiga, pretty standard stuff. I can't develop website images etc."
I can't, I can't, I can't realize Amiga's have been doing just THAT FOR YEARS!!! Do you or have you ever even owned one?
@Thread
I've GOT Photoshop!!! It's very handy but if I want something simple like an animation... pah! Its simpler on DPaint.
@Amiga Enemies
When did Amiga go down? 1994? And NOW you want to compare EXPENSIVE software running on the LATEST hardware to Amiga stuff and slam it to boot?
WTF? YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR MEMBERSHIP REVOKED IMMEDIATELY BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELONG HERE.
Go polish someone elses apples and the jump out the windows!!!!
-
mresher:
Ubuntu appears cool. I installed it on a laptop that has a hardware bug that causes it to shut down when there is a lot of HD activity. It took several tries where sometimes I'd get all the way to 97% and it would shut down. Ubuntu doesn't seem to have a way to complete a failed installation, so every time it started back at partition and format. No complaints...it still went better for free than most Windows installs I ever did.
Wired net came up perfectly, but not wireless, and sound did not install...though I can't see anything wrong with it and the "Test" function doesn't indicate anything. OTOH, all it does is show a 25% bar and say "Press OK to Finish" so I can't be sure.
Oh well, it's new to me and I suppose I've new tricks to learn...
Once I am familiar I'll install it on the kids computers instead of you-know-what. Most of what they do is browse, anyway and perhaps they'll learn to be non-conformists like the rest of us.
Once my Amiga skills are back from the upcoming A4000 resurrection project, maybe I'll hunt down some 1200's for them. Yeah, that'll do it. They'll go to school, get sat down in front of Windows, look at the teacher and say "WTF is this POS? :pissed:
-
@Mallete:
lol. Too funny. I have my little nephew doing the same. A whiz on the A1200 I bought him, he's totally fascinated by it. Will be funny to see his reaction when he starts kindergarden and they plop him down in front of a Windoze box.. Like you said, "WTF is this piece of sh1t??!" :) haha
-
stopthegop wrote:
@Mallete:
lol. Too funny. I have my little nephew doing the same. A whiz on the A1200 I bought him, he's totally fascinated by it. Will be funny to see his reaction when he starts kindergarden and they plop him down in front of a Windoze box.. Like you said, "WTF is this piece of sh1t??!" :) haha
Actually, in the context of Windows, "POS" stands for "Pitiful Operating System." :-D
-
Pitiful, yep.. No doubt about that. Many of our bloat-denying brethren would argue the "p" stands for Parsimonious. :)
-
Hey thought I'd bump this conversation up - this was an interesting comparison of a Mac Plus (not an Amiga) vs. a dual core AMD from this year comparing productivity on the two systems:
Mac Plus Comparison (http://hubpages.com/hub/_86_Mac_Plus_Vs_07_AMD_DualCore_You_Wont_Believe_Who_Wins)
Could be a good candidate for an Amiga comparison in future?
-
For my view on the current Amiga market please read my interview here.
http://arosshow.blogspot.com/2007/05/bill-panagouleas-interview-what-is.html
-
wow I think I will do all my work and a mac plus... NOT... LOL
what kind of work do these people do?
If all you do is type you can use a type writer, NO boot time. You can also draw things out by hand, better and faster than you can on the computer...
so for people who think these comparison are useful, I recomend getting rid of the computer all together becasue you don't need one. The rest of us can feel the difference between a mac pro and modern PC.
-
guru-666 wrote:
so for people who think these comparison are useful, I recomend getting rid of the computer all together becasue you don't need one.
Indeed. I've recently replaced my internet connection with a carrier pigeon. Works well enough, but the lag is a bit of a bugger.
The rest of us can feel the difference between a mac pro and modern PC.
With the Mac Pro being a high-end 8 core computer I imagine you would ;-)