Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: nbarnes on April 16, 2007, 01:04:19 PM
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All, I need some reasons other than nostalgia for obtaining OS3,4 or whatever. What's unique about it?
Somebody sell it to me (I haven't used anything since a500 days). I WANT to use it (for reasons that escape me) but I don't know if it's going to be worth the effort.
In short, is OS4 (or 3.9) any good or not?
Could somebody summarize it's good points?
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Easy, just check these two pages, they summarize Amiga's strenghts quite well:
The 20 Features of OS4:
http://www.amigaos4.com/index.php%3Foption=content&task=view&id=9&Itemid=.html
The 20 Reasons to use OS4:
http://www.amigaos4.com/index.php%3Foption=content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=.html
Varthall
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1. You command it, not the other way around.
2. Small, lightweight and efficient.
3. No DRM bs.
4. No irritating nags.
5. Doesn't "require" a gig of RAM just to run it.
6. Doesn't "require" massive HW upgrades to "handle it".
7. No byzantine registration procedures. Just load and go.
8. Can easily use bootable drive on any another Amiga.
9. Doesn't leave fingerprints all over the net like windoze
10. No registry.
11. Don't need any kind of "training" or "certification"
12. Bootable ROM.
13. Minimal if non-existant virus or spyware threat.
14. OS and most apps. are small in size and very fast.
15. True multitasking.
16. Much faster boot times.
17. Instantly responsive to user input.
18. Installs in 5 minutes, not 2 hrs.
19. You don't have to call and ask permission to use it.
20. Won't appear to "get slower" as you install more apps
21. Doesn't "require" massive vmem partition just to run.
22. Totally modular.
23. Documentation is comprehensive and easy to obtain.
24. Very easy to get custom look and feel.
25. Fast, even on very modest hardware.
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I was wondering, can you do a simple task in OS4 , like watching a YouTube video? (simple and nothing special on a windows pc, but can OS4 do it?)
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I can't really think of 5 reasons, but I still use my Amigas for music production...All my early work is on Amiga formatted drives and needs Amiga software to view... And I stay with AROS because it's fun and that's where my history is, I grew up with Amiga OS, it was my main system for 10 years. It's nice to remember why I got into computers, and it's nice to see how far they've come!
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nbarnes wrote:
All, I need some reasons other than nostalgia for obtaining OS3,4 or whatever. What's unique about it?
Somebody sell it to me (I haven't used anything since a500 days). I WANT to use it (for reasons that escape me) but I don't know if it's going to be worth the effort.
In short, is OS4 (or 3.9) any good or not?
Could somebody summarize it's good points?
I had 2 very interesting conversations recently. One with a man who used to repair and service all sorts of Commodore computers including the Amiga for just about 20 years. The other with a man I met 15 years ago who's running a 3D creation business and still using the Amiga 4000.
Our conclusion was that the Amiga democratised the ability to produce TV and movie quality graphics.
It brought to the public at large the ability to produce quality material previosuly reserved to a very wealthy corporate elite.
Windows came along afterwards and continued the trend but the starting point for publicly available multimedia production capability was the Amiga. Most people doing this sort of work on the PC today used to have Amigas at some point in the past.
That is why the Amiga platform is the most "experienced" environment for multimedia production.
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Keropi:
Depends of the type of file. I am able to view .avi, .qt, .mov, or .mpg on my big box with OS3.9 without any problem. I can't do .wmv or .mp4 files, but that is not because of a hardware limitation or a limitation of the OS. If someone wrote a program to interpert these files, then I'm sure it would work.
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keropi wrote:
I was wondering, can you do a simple task in OS4 , like watching a YouTube video? (simple and nothing special on a windows pc, but can OS4 do it?)
You're mixing up the OS itself and applications installed on top of it (the same mistake Microsoft continuously makes with every new version of their Windows crap). So, if you could convince Adobe to port their flash plugin to OS4, you'd be able to watch youtube videos as well.
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keropi wrote:
I was wondering, can you do a simple task in OS4 , like watching a YouTube video? (simple and nothing special on a windows pc, but can OS4 do it?)
Yes: http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=network/browser/ib_youtube.lha (http://os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=network/browser/ib_youtube.lha)
Varthall
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Amiga doesn't do anything that can't be done faster, easier and better on other platforms at the moment. So no, there are no reasons to persist.
I love the classic amiga and I still use it (professionally if you can believe that) every day. But all this 0S4 nonsense is a joke. With Windows, OSX, Linux, NetBSD and many others available to you for the x86, plus the fact that the hardware is available pretty much anywhere for very few dollars, why bother?
And also, the company is run by people who couldn't deliver a toast on time if you cooked the bread for them.
Top 5 reasons to get OS4:
1- You are tech-oriented and would like to fiddle with a new toy and contribute little snippets of code to try to bring the OS up to par with the rest.
2- errr.. that's it.
As much as I would like to use a modern Amiga... there is none in existence. The latest incarnation of the OS is designed to run on dated hardware, that costs an arm and a leg to buy because there is so little demand for it. I love the OS structure, and how simple and efficient it is for the task it is able to perform, but I just can't see it cope with the increasing complexity of modern computer usage.
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To be different for the sake of being different?
No but seriously, in 2007 I cannot tink of a valid arguement to using the Amiga as a primary computer :-( If you don't mean as a primary computer, sure there are reasons to use the Amiga. The Amiga is still the Amiga, it can be pleasant to use as a retro/hobbyist system.
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I think James has hit the nail on the head there.
For people to come "back" to Amiga is going to require something a bit special and from what I can see...OS4 isn't special enough.
I think, sadly, Amiga is dead.
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James wrote:
Amiga doesn't do anything that can't be done faster, easier and better on other platforms at the moment. So no, there are no reasons to persist.
Well...I agree that one should not use the Amiga as their main system at the moment, it's just the "easier and better" part I don't agree with.:-(
The Wizard
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totally agree with James...
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Yeah,,, time will tell if OS4 and the new hardware can capture the same magic that classic Amiga have.
I have been playing with the idea of having an OS4 machine. Would I use it seriously?
No, not at all sadly :lol:
But it would be cool to see Workbench on a faster CPU. I just wonder if you will be able to run MWB on it. It seems soon the PPC port for classic Amiga will be ready and I will try it out then :-)
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Well, if you marry, your wife will get old and ugly. There will be many pretty young ladies, with big CPUs and modded towers, a lot better than she is or was. But you will still love her and have good time with her.
So, keep using Amiga is you still want to :-D
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if you don't mean as a primary computer, sure there are reasons to use the Amiga.
Depends on the definition of "primary". For most computing tasks, the Amiga is my first choice. This would include creating spreadsheets, writing small C programs, designing an extension for my garage, writing and/or publishing an article, building resumes, document layout, doing taxes, creating presentations, freehand drawing, building PLC, robotics or home-automation systems, writing arexx scripts, image editing, CD or DVD burning, etc, etc.. I personally find the overhead and bloat and overall offensiveness of WindowsOS to be a burden when performing these tasks. Granted, there are some undeniable limitations of an Amiga that require me to own a Windows PC as a secondary computer. If I want to play a DVD or use the win32 Citrix client for my job, then I have to hold my nose and boot the PC. The Amiga is a great computer and I have no intention of ever selling it. The PC, on the other hand, is utterly disposable; I'll have a new one from my company probably before Thanksgiving. Therefore, I do consider the Amiga as my "primary" computer.
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stopthegop says:
Don't need any kind of "training" or "certification" - Good One!
Installs in 5 minutes, not 2 hrs. - Try 6 hours!
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James says:
Top 5 reasons to get OS4:
1- You are tech-oriented and would like to fiddle with a new toy and contribute little snippets of code to try to bring the OS up to par with the rest.
Couldn't afford it then and can't afford it now - But that's why I want it!
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Zener says:
Well, if you marry, your wife will get old and ugly. There will be many pretty young ladies, with big CPUs and modded towers, a lot better than she is or was. But you will still love her and have good time with her.
Too funny! :-P
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A big one that rarely gets mentioned in these threads is the the word "modular". AmigaOS is a modular design with respect to both hardware and software, which is an indicator of quality. Basically it means you don't have to go buy a new computer to "handle" whatever OS microsoft is hawking this week. By no perversion of the english language can a Windows PC be described as "modular".
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there are none other than if you simply perfer the amiga style or some how are still running old software that does what you need well. (toaster)
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@stopthegop
You know.. there are other options besides Windows. I find in incredibly funny when people call Windows "The PC". Things come in more than one variety. I'd like to see your grocery list...
To buy this week:
The Meat
The Fruit
The Drink
The Bread
:-D
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At the end of the day, it's a preference. Do you need to justify everything you do just to do it?
I have PCs running Windows/Linux etc. If I want to do any serious work I'll use them as needed. If I want to actually have some fun, I'll use one of the amigas*
*not that I ever have the time these days :-(
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I use my Amiga earlier in the day, not at the end, I find that I'm often too tired. Tired enough that I make these kind of jokes.. see? ;)
There's still a lot of juice in the Amiga. But if we're to be remotely honest with ourselves, we keep on using them because we love them so much, not because they do anything all that special anymore.
Just scored another Amiga today, and it comes with a genlock! Never had one of those...so many hours of geekin' it up awaits me! :D
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Reason number..what are we up to?
It is my alternative to the other computing philosifies.
The machine is mine and has no allegance to anyone other than me. (no spyware and corporate prying)
It is the machine/OS that I enjoy using.
If I had the ability to design a computer and OS, I would largely do it the way the Amiga is.
Love the Ram Disk
It is not engineered to protect me from me, there are usually multiple ways to get something done.
The OS is simple and easly "knowable".
No silly-a55ed registry or desktop file!
There is a kind of scalability. I can run a small system from a RAD: drive OR a big system from a HD.
The Amiga is my main machine. Other, commonly available computers, fill in the gaps. I never started using the Amiga for fashion's sake back in the day, obviously, I still don't.
@Stopthegop
I liked your post.
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After-thought
Not that this matters to me, but, the Amiga is still unique. As I said in another thread, over time, the Amiga will become more collectable and sought-after.
A few OSes had a similar streamlining (BEOS, QNX, etc), but they never achieved the same following or critical mass
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@ bloodline
is that why you got a box of logic pro (mac) as your avatar?
it's ok man I use logic aswell. and nothing on the market comes close to it. if there was logic on the amiga. id def use it. but since Apple bought emagic years ago. thats not gonna happen.
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Generally, I have to agree with James that the most common applications are much easier and cheaper to get done on a PC.
However, there are some niche specialized industrial applications where it could have an edge over the PC. For example, a used Video toaster 4000 system today is a much cheaper solution than any equivalent on the PC. It works great too.
I know ETS (Université du Québec's engineering School) went on using the toaster 4000 until 1993.
I am considering buying Turbo Print for the Amiga as a raster image processor for Postscript color printing. There aren't any equivalent easily available at a similar cost on the PC that I know of.
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>Amiga doesn't do anything that can't be done faster, >easier and better on other platforms at the moment. So no, >there are no reasons to persist.
Not true in all cases. Some applications are easier, better, and work great on the Ataris and Amigas in their original state. If you speed them up, they work worse since for them the accuracy of timing is more significant.
I am posting some code here for Atari 400 which is about 30 year old machine but the this code shows a timer interrupt that has more accuracy than a PC timer. Similar code can be written for Amiga which has even a more accurate timer than an Atari 400, but if the PC can't even do this it follows it can't do the Amiga timing. You can use the cable on auction to boot this code directly from your PC:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:L:LCA:US:11&item=320102924004
EDIT: Bad link; working link is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320104919302
or you can compile it in your own 6502 Assembler and write it to a 5.25" floppy disk. This code sets a timer interrupt to change some register at the 131st scan line at the beginning of the scan line and then undoes the change after some arbitrary color clocks before the scan line ends. I am changing the color here for visual purposes, but it can be any other memory location depending on the application. You can use DLIs (copper list interrupts on Amiga), but then we would be comparing apples and oranges. Here the comparison would be just between timers:
;*** Test timer accuracy on Atari 400/800 by Krishna Software Inc. without using DLIs.
TIMERFREQLSB = 53760
TIMERFREQMSB = 53762
WSYNC = 54282
VCOUNT = 54283
DOSVEC = 10
CASINI = 2
WARMSTART = 58484
VMIRQ = 534 ;hardware irq ptr
ORG = 600h
;DW 0FFFFh
;DW StartAdr
;DW LastOffset-1
DB 0,3 ;# of sectors to load 1..255
DW ORG
DW StartAdr
Rts
StartAdr: Lda #MyReset,L
Sta CASINI
Lda #MyReset,H
Sta CASINI+1
Lda #0
Sta 580
Lda #2
Sta 9
Jmp WARMSTART
MyReset: Lda #2
Sta 9
Lda #MyReset,L
Sta CASINI
Lda #MyReset,H
Sta CASINI+1
Sei
Lda #0 ;no VBIs nor DLIs for maximum performance
Sta 54286
Sta 53774 ;disable all IRQs
Sta 54272 ;turn off screen
Lda #TimerTwoIRQ,L ;general IRQ routine but we use only for timer #2
Sta VMIRQ
Lda #TimerTwoIRQ,H
Sta VMIRQ+1
Lda #80 ;40 for join channels 3,4; +80 for channels 1+2 @1.79Mhz
Sta 53768 ;join channels at 1.79 Mhz
Lda #165 ;lsb 165
Sta 53760 ;timer #2 freq = 1789790/[A+1]
Lda #116 ;msb for rate divisor A
Sta 53762
Lda #2 ;2=timer interrupt
Sta 53774 ;enable IRQ #2
NotMidScreen: Lda VCOUNT
Cmp #65
Bne NotMidScreen
Sta WSYNC
Sta 53769 ;start timer counter
CLI
Lda #34
Sta 54272
IdleLoop: ;put your code here
Jmp IdleLoop
TimerTwoIRQ: Pha
Lda #255
Sta 53272 ;change register (like color for example)
Lda #0
Sta 53774
Lda #2
Sta 53774 ;send ack to timer irq
Nop
Nop
Lda #96
Sta 53272 ;change register (like color for example)
Pla
Rti
;LastOffset: DW 2e0h,2e1h,ORG
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1. Guru Meditation
2. Cleaning corroded traces is so more fun than doing needle point
3. Amiga community websites, without them I wouldn't know half what I do about the Xbox360/ps3/Wii
4. Gotta love the drive click
5. Memory protection is overrated
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Reason # 1 : For all the reasons quoted by stopthegop :-)
Reason # 2 : No needs to change all the hardware each time you want to use that or this software ;
Reason # 3 : no collusion between the motherboard makers and the main OS developper for constantly rising the needs of the OS to force the users to neverendingly buy new computers several times a year, making them cash fountain ;
Reason # 4 : no needs to wear an armored pants when you go to buy software for it ;-) ;
Reason # 5 : after 22 years I'm still in love and still haven't found better/cooler/smarter computer/OS than my Amigas :-)
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mikrucio wrote:
@ bloodline
is that why you got a box of logic pro (mac) as your avatar?
Yup, Logic Pro 7.2 is the most amazing music production software I've ever used!
it's ok man I use logic aswell. and nothing on the market comes close to it. if there was logic on the amiga. id def use it. but since Apple bought emagic years ago. thats not gonna happen.
Well, I like to use OctaMED as I find it a more natural way to compose... and it's great for getting percusion loops together.
Also I like to sample stuff using the Amiga and get a real 8bit grit sound that you simply can not get with bitcrushers.
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WARNING: Pointless meandering rant follows. It's not aimed at anyone in particular.
It's an imperfect world and all machines have pros and cons, the Amiga included.
What I don't get is the ppl who responded negatively (some with sarcasm) to this thread. I understand that there are real limitations (Look how far we've come, though.) and there are things that can't be done. No one denies the latest web standards get lost in IBrowse, or that Mp3s require more horsepower than was originally supplied, or that no one is porting the latest video codecs. But, it is amazing what has been done! What other 20 year old machines allow ppl to do what we can?
Don't mis-understand, I prefer grounded realism to the notion that if we just go door-to-door, we can convince ppl to buy more Amigas. Grin. This is a special interest site. What is the common thread that ties us together? Rebellion against the tyranny of MS, fantasy, the Video Toaster, an elegant OS, ppl tragically caught in a time-warp? The only place I can share my enthusiasm for this computer is here. The rest of the world has moved on (in my humble opinion, many followed the piper). Anyway, in many threads like this one, there is usually someone who sound angry, negative, defeatist, etc, always quick to point out the much greener pasture on another platform. An interesting question for me is why do those people persist?
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Tenacious wrote:
What I don't get is the ppl who responded negatively (some with sarcasm) to this thread.
I do understand. Its probably for a reason the same as why I post so rarely to a thread like this.
What I dont get is why people keep asking for the so well known route. Save Amiga, Amiga future, Conquer the world and so on....Stop it already. We should write some bots to generate the regular answers. Bots that can even have a good flamewar together while they're at it. ;) It the same cheese over and over.
To sum it up; Commodore Amiga went bankrupt a loooong time ago and nothing spectacular has happened since. Some are still waiting for something that supposedly was announced but those are the ones with real patience. Today it is hobbyism that counts!
No, my view is about the same as James'. You are right, alot has been achieved with so little. But really, Amiga is an old horse. You can like the tinker value it has. You can like the use of your old software. You can like the 'free' software that is available. But it is still an old horse.
But even old horses have drivers (I should know I drive an old vw beetle). I just dont think the Amiga has a killer app any longer that would flock people to the stores to get one. Therfor selling one to you might be a bit troublesome.
You are visiting this forum. So to me, and perhaps to you, the most interesting point of sale would be the tinker value. Some now and then nice hardware/software rolls by and if you like the real hardware you have something to play with.
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bloodline wrote:
Well, I like to use OctaMED as I find it a more natural way to compose... and it's great for getting percusion loops together.
I love OctaMED. Trackers are just so intuitive I tend to find.
Also I like to sample stuff using the Amiga and get a real 8bit grit sound that you simply can not get with bitcrushers.
Paula is such a dirty girl :-D Beyond the basic fact it's 8-bit, partially it's the total lack of any antialiasing filters and partially the non-linear amplitude response. Actually, even 14-bit sounds fabulously lo-fi on there too.
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Karlos wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Well, I like to use OctaMED as I find it a more natural way to compose... and it's great for getting percusion loops together.
I love OctaMED. Trackers are just so intuitive I tend to find.
Yeah... butthat's only because we grew up with them... I learned music with trackers and a megalosound sampler... :-)
Also I like to sample stuff using the Amiga and get a real 8bit grit sound that you simply can not get with bitcrushers.
Paula is such a dirty girl :-D Beyond the basic fact it's 8-bit, partially it's the total lack of any antialiasing filters and partially the non-linear amplitude response. Actually, even 14-bit sounds fabulously lo-fi on there too.
Yeah, I think the nonlinear nature of her DACs actually help to improve the quality (if not the fidelity) of the low resolution sound... I was never impressed with paula 14bit audio (even though I wrote my own sub ranging algorithm back in the day...). The Amiga did have the advantage that, you could sample at 80Khz which did actually help the quality somewhat...
Actually I still like to use my Roland W-30 because of it's 12bit DACs (not to mention it's beatufitul filters...)
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Yes, your sig does look like a beetle. Grin.
Just to say it again, I find the call to "..re-energize the community and re-take the #3 platform position.." tiresome, too. I'm content to continue as I have (tinkering, hobby-ing, etc) and reconciled that most of the world does not share my opinion of cool computing.
IMHO, the computing world has slowed (Is the latest Windows a quantum leap beyond 95? Or the Amiga, for that matter?). There has been incremental progress and innovation, but, nothing evolutionary has happened sinse 1985 (Ok, the Web is life-changing, but, that's not a platform).
Maybe, if I were heavily into gaming or networking or living on the web, I'd feel differently.
@Doppie1200
I see your point. This gets stirred up too often.
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nbarnes wrote:
I WANT to use it (for reasons that escape me)
Could somebody summarize it's good points?
Personally, I just enjoy tinkering.
I can't believe I read all the posts in this thread.
There's more cheese here (http://www.cheddarvision.tv).
Fester
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This is the first time I've seen "cheese" used like this. Erno, did you invent new slang? GRIN
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James wrote:
I find in incredibly funny when people call Windows "The PC".
I wasn't referring to windows in general in that context. I meant it just like I said it: "The" PC refers to "the" PC I happen to own. Sorry if you misunderstood my use of a singular possesive pronoun.
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lol i think we need our own thread.
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You know.. there are other options besides Windows.
Thats true, I could use MacOS or any of the other hundreds of mutations of Unix floating around out there. So you're right in that there are at least some options with regard to what software I want to use. The problem is all these "choices" run on the same crap hardware, for which there are few if any alternatives. No matter what OS I might go with, the liklihood that I'll end up with x86 compatible PC hardware is almost a 100% certainty.
Your suggestion of this rich variety of "choices" in computing is only partially correct. Its sort of like when I travelled to Norway a few years ago and found that Norweigans like to make everything[/b] out of cod fish. I hate, hate, hate, hate...fish! *YUK*. Can't stand it. So I'd order a Burger, figuring that was safe. Wrong. Fish-Burgers! *GAG* Pizza? Nope, fish-pizza. You name it... Fish-sticks, fish-pops, fish-snaps, fish-cakes, fish-cicles, fish, fish, fish..
Its sort of like that buying computers now, too. Sure, take any OS you want, but, like it or not, you're pretty much stuck with x86.
EDIT: No offense to fellow Norweigans. :) I might be the only Norweigan who hates both seafood and cold weather. :)
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Tenacious wrote:
This is the first time I've seen "cheese" used like this. Erno, did you invent new slang? GRIN
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Long lives tinkering power!
Yes, I am guilty! I must admit rebuilding an Amiga 3000 desktop from the motherboard up was a very rewarding experience.
Amiga does have a huge amount of attractive tinkeringness.
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Top 5 reasons to persist with the miggy
1:you are an idiot
2:you live in the past
3:your intelectual coefficient is like a simian
4:you can't accept that the amiga is dead
5:you haven't social life or a true life...get one
bye Laser
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LaserBack wrote:
Top 5 reasons to persist with the miggy
1:you are an idiot
2:you live in the past
3:your intelectual coefficient is like a simian
4:you can't accept that the amiga is dead
5:you haven't social life or a true life...get one
bye Laser
I would want to know what are you doing here :roll:
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Fransexy,
sorry...my top 5 is refered to that crap OS4
I really like old amiga stuff and classic games
I still have an A1200 & apollo 1260
bye, Laser
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LaserBack wrote:
Top 5 reasons to persist with the miggy
1:you are an idiot
2:you live in the past
3:your intelectual coefficient is like a simian
4:you can't accept that the amiga is dead
5:you haven't social life or a true life...get one
I really like old amiga stuff and classic games
I still have an A1200 & apollo 1260
bye, Laser
1:you are just an idiot :lol:
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LaserBack wrote:
Fransexy,
sorry...my top 5 is refered to that crap OS4
I doubt that statement will soothe him. :lol:
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eslapion wrote:
Long lives tinkering power!
Yes, I am guilty! I must admit rebuilding an Amiga 3000 desktop from the motherboard up was a very rewarding experience.
Amiga does have a huge amount of attractive tinkeringness.
Indeed! Got 4 2000s in various stages of tinkering in my home office.
Can't help but notice you're in Québec. Lived a few years in Rivière-du-Loup and a couple in Hull while attending college. Speak any Français?
Fester