Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Piru on April 09, 2007, 12:30:34 AM
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fr-041: debris (http://pouet.net/prod.php?which=30244)
* P4 2GHz or athlon 2000+
* 512MB ram
* ps2.0 capable gfxcard with 128MB ram
* directx 9.0c
This demo WILL win Breakpoint 2007 PC demo compo. No question about it.
Oh and the demo size? 177KB (!!!)
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Anyone got a video link for us non Windows users?
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When video is available it will be linked to the page (next to [download] link).
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farbrauch does it again.
I have a recommended setup but it was still sluggish (with all the options on)
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* core2duo or athlon x2 with >=2.4ghz
* 1024mb ram
* geforce 7600/radeon x1600 or better with 256mb vram
amazing to see a 177kb demo make use of 1gb of ram ? But yeah, great demo ...
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WTF?!?
I love fr (probably one of my personal top three PC groups) but this simply blew me away. Amazing.
This demo WILL win Breakpoint 2007 PC demo compo. No question about it.
Yeah, I certainly can't see how anything could top that.
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-D- wrote:
WTF?!?
I love fr (probably one of my personal top three PC groups) but this simply blew me away. Amazing.
This demo WILL win Breakpoint 2007 PC demo compo. No question about it.
Yeah, I certainly can't see how anything could top that.
Can it beat Desert Dream (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30213) for pure jaw dropping cycle sucking wizardy? ;-)
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That C64 Desert Dream remake was pretty amazing, true, but it still is that: a remake.
It'll probably win the C64 democompo, however :-)
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CannonFodder wrote:
-D- wrote:
WTF?!?
I love fr (probably one of my personal top three PC groups) but this simply blew me away. Amazing.
This demo WILL win Breakpoint 2007 PC demo compo. No question about it.
Yeah, I certainly can't see how anything could top that.
Can it beat Desert Dream (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30213) for pure jaw dropping cycle sucking wizardy? ;-)
LOL, yeah, Desert Dream was truly teh OMGWTFz0rz of its day... :-) Still pretty impressive for a bare A500 demo!
Anyhow, stuff like this amazes me. I don't understand it (the coding aspect), so to me it's pure wizardry.
EDIT -- DOH! It's for the C64... that's a shocker. I'll have to check it out.
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EDIT -- DOH! It's for the C64... that's a shocker. I'll have to check it out.
:lol:
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Holy shizznit :lol: Never in a million years thought I'd see that!
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-D- wrote:
Holy shizznit :lol: Never in a million years thought I'd see that!
'mazin innit? :-D
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Very cool demo!
Dammy
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Piru wrote:
This demo WILL win Breakpoint 2007 PC demo compo. No question about it.
what about andromeda's demo ?
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what about andromeda's demo ?
I'd bet 2nd place.
But we'll see soon enough.
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Hands down some of the best coding I've ever seen.
Ever.
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That was not even 200k?! Holy {bleep}! Although the Andromeda entry was very nice too, Farbrausch deserves another win. They're pure genius.
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I'm not able to see the Windows demo, but the Desert Dream remake was jawdropping.
Remind me never to challenge a C64 coder.
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But it unpacks stuff for a couple of minutes on my box.
I hate these ~150 KB demos that in reality is much larger. Oh and Windows demos sucks big time! Just the fact it is running in Windows is a huge loss. Nothing more lamer than that.
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Wow. I actually found something that makes the fan on my Core2 Duo speed up. :-o
Bloody cool.
cv643d: I hate these ~150 KB demos that in reality is much larger.
Demos aren't about being practical -- they're about being cool, and this is DEFINATELY cool.
Faster load times would be nice, but most demos don't come close to this kind of detail and weigh in at 5-10MB.
Now, a hybridization of procedural synthesis (for normal maps and detail textures) and regular artwork (for main textures) is what would allow mainstream software to pack a huge wallop on detail without requiring a 5GB installation. Hopefully, other developers will pick up on this.
Of course, that never seems to happen. :angry:
Nothing more lamer than that.
Well, until Amiga gets a decent 3D API with drivers, Windows will continue to be the more bestest platform of choice.
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Sexytime. Me likes.
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Pardon my ingnorance and cynical disposition, but apart from the compelling surreal 'storyline' (which in the end has a hard time going somewhere), what is so great about the demo?
Yes, it's small, but farbrausch always was good at procedural textures, so no points there.
It looks nice, but hey, we're talking a heavy DirectX9-based application here powered by a not-so-slow CPU. That's like being amazed over a car that can break the sound barrier, and then learning it is powered by two jet fighter engines. Definitely far from easy to control, but once you do, well, 'obvious'. This means that a lot of 'wow'-factor is actually in the design of the demo, but:
There's tons and tons of little cubes and prisms flying over the screen (requiring streamlined coding), the lighting is done with attention to detail (espcecially the fence in the beginning, and the reflected sheen when the cubes pass a noticable distance in front of a window), and the volumetric shading near the end gets a thumbs up. But apart from that, it could have been a playable game demo, where these things also pop up from time to time. So what is its 'wow'-factor?
I'll concede: it looks nice, and the beginning, where the city is being run over, is captivating. But 'the best ever'? Certainly not. I think farbrausch's earlier 64k-efforts are better, despite their limitations from the underlying DirectX API. 3D Mark 2001, 2003 and 2005 have beautiful landscape scenes which make this demo look drab, blocky and very mathematical in comparison.
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Looking forward to watching a video of this demo...on my 1.3ghz laptop!
Yum!
James
x
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I think farbrausch's earlier 64k-efforts are better, despite their limitations from the underlying DirectX API.
Short of talking directly to an NVidia card, which of course would likely make this demo only compatible on said hardware, Direct3D is the closest you'll get to the hardware. It has one less layer then OpenGL (OpenGL being a state machine) and at this point, especially with Direct3D 10 now, it has more whizbang features.
All that being said, you could certainly write such a demo in OpenGL, but Direct3D is a fine API.
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It won, Noumenon by Andromeda (http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=30253) was 2nd.
Well that wasn't very hard to predict. :-)
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That ran like crap on my system. I definitely need to invest in a new system. I'm still running on my "high spec" system from too many years ago.
Cheap AMD 2500+ XP
only 768mb of RAM
ATI All in Wonder 9600 (that replaced the ATI 9800 Pro I had)
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I just saw the video capture of the demo, which can be found here:
ftp://ftp.untergrund.net/users/crest/ (http://ftp://ftp.untergrund.net/users/crest/)
Well, what can I say. Don't think I'll be watching it again. Don't get me wrong, it was quite amusing to watch, lots of eyecandy - like a music video. But as a coder, it didn't inspire me. Come to think of it, 3D demos never did.
I know, the hardware market dictates it, and the PC contains too many variables to blow any limits, but still. This is why I'm sticking to the Amiga scene.
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GreggBz wrote:
I think farbrausch's earlier 64k-efforts are better, despite their limitations from the underlying DirectX API.
Short of talking directly to an NVidia card, which of course would likely make this demo only compatible on said hardware, Direct3D is the closest you'll get to the hardware. It has one less layer then OpenGL (OpenGL being a state machine) and at this point, especially with Direct3D 10 now, it has more whizbang features.
I'm afraid you misunderstood me: I wasn't implying that DirectX was bad or not being sufficiently hardware-banging. I was thinking of all the pixel / vortex shader models that evolved over the years.
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@Cymric:
I was thinking of all the pixel / vortex shader models that evolved over the years.
Actually, we're still waiting on those to be invented...
Incidentally, if you happened to be a geordie, that's exactly the correct pronunciation :lol:
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Hardeeharhar. I'll not correct the speling mistayk so everyone can have a good laugh at my expense. It's been a while, anyway :crazy:
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@justthatgood
I ran it "okay" on AMD Athlon 2400+, 512MB ram and Radeon 9600.
Choose 800x600, Texture quality: Normal, No shadows.
Well, it doesn't look as good as it could with high end system, but it does run somewhat faster.
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@Cymric
You should know by now that I'm really a very simple person and correspondingly easy to amuse :-D
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Cymric wrote:
Pardon my ingnorance and cynical disposition, but apart from the compelling surreal 'storyline' (which in the end has a hard time going somewhere), what is so great about the demo?
Yes, it's small, but farbrausch always was good at procedural textures, so no points there.
It looks nice, but hey, we're talking a heavy DirectX9-based application here powered by a not-so-slow CPU. That's like being amazed over a car that can break the sound barrier, and then learning it is powered by two jet fighter engines. Definitely far from easy to control, but once you do, well, 'obvious'. This means that a lot of 'wow'-factor is actually in the design of the demo, but:
There's tons and tons of little cubes and prisms flying over the screen (requiring streamlined coding), the lighting is done with attention to detail (espcecially the fence in the beginning, and the reflected sheen when the cubes pass a noticable distance in front of a window), and the volumetric shading near the end gets a thumbs up. But apart from that, it could have been a playable game demo, where these things also pop up from time to time. So what is its 'wow'-factor?
I'll concede: it looks nice, and the beginning, where the city is being run over, is captivating. But 'the best ever'? Certainly not. I think farbrausch's earlier 64k-efforts are better, despite their limitations from the underlying DirectX API. 3D Mark 2001, 2003 and 2005 have beautiful landscape scenes which make this demo look drab, blocky and very mathematical in comparison.
Sound like sour grapes to me. :-D
Shows us your demos than. Let see what you can do. :rtfm:
I personally like the demo. Wish I could do something like that.
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@Cymric
Like High Level Shader Language?
I know little of this stuff. :-p
I have big books, but have just read the introductions lol.
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lopos wrote:
Sound like sour grapes to me. :-D
No, just trying to understand the appeal as I personally know prettier examples.
Shows us your demos than. Let see what you can do. :rtfm: I personally like the demo. Wish I could do something like that.
Yes, I would too. I once created a demo for the Amiga, but that is long gone now.
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I know this is going to sound really really stupid, and it's going to make me look n00b as hell...
Does anyone know if they coded this in C/C++, or did they go through the nightmare that is trying to code in assembly in Windows.
If i sound stupid I'm going to blame it on the lack of sleep from Easter celebrating.
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Probably C/C++ (or similar high level language), possibly with specific components optimized using assembler.
Does DX even provide an assembler level API?
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@Cymric
I personally know prettier examples.
Such as?
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It's a neat piece of code with nice effects and cool visual flair, but I have to agree it's pretty boring. As a demo, it totally fails to provide any sense of awe. I don't feel any urge to rewatch it any time soon. The Popular Demo was a much, much better production from Farbrausch. And it doesn't require a Dual Core to run decently.
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@Kaminari
As a demo, it totally fails to provide any sense of awe.
Breakpoint disagrees. The crowd went totally nuts.
I haven't heard such reaction to PC demo in years.
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@CannonFodder
Anyone got a video link for us non Windows users?
farbrausch - debris (kkapture).avi (http://ftp://ftp.untergrund.net/users/crest/farbrausch%20-%20debris%20(kkapture).avi)
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Piru, are you there or are you watching online ?
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@countzero
Piru, are you there or are you watching online ?
Watching online, but the yells and applauds were clearly audible even thru the stream.
Though, nothing compares to seeing such thing live on big screen... Say for example I saw TBL's Starstruck live, and the experience was quite awesome.
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Piru wrote:@Cymric
I personally know prettier examples.
Such as?
Like I said, some of the parts of the 3D Mark suite are far prettier to look at, especially the nature scenes. The 3D Mark 2005 nature scene with the green twinkly light fluttering through the dark forest is just asking for a fantasy background story. Not so debris. Of course, even on my not-so-slow machine (AMD XP3200+, GeForce 7600GS, nForce2-chipset), it renders at about 4 to 5 FPS :crazy:. But there a genuine democoder could show off his skills in ultra-efficient programming.
Piru wrote:
@Kaminari
As a demo, it totally fails to provide any sense of awe.
Breakpoint disagrees. The crowd went totally nuts. I haven't heard such reaction to PC demo in years.
That can either mean that the crowd doesn't know better (unlikely), or that the average quality of PC demos over the past few years was lousy (likely). :crazy:
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@Cymric
Well, the debris demo is set in a urban city. It works for me.
the average quality of PC demos over the past few years was lousy (likely).
Well, that bit is true. :-) Nothing spectacular has come out on PC front in years.
This doesn't make Debris any less amazing, though.
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IMNSHO it comes down to entertainment value and the fact there are two kinds of entertainment as far as demos go.
First of all, there's the audio/visual aspect. Lots of pretty visuals and slick music. Of course, most ordinary PC users are more than used to this from the current generation of games, which is why they may feel a demo like this is not that special (despite the fact the kkreiger engine's renderer is technically as advanced, or moreso, than many current game engines).
The second form of entertainment appeals only to coders and that's the appreciation of the technical feat and speculation on how various things were accomplished. Sure, it uses procedural textures that get generated on loading - but what sort of algorithms were used to generate them? How are the scenes described in such a small space?
3DMark may have scenes that are prettier to look at, but then it has megabytes and megabytes of images, models and animation data created by professional artists, fed into an engine that's designed to give a hardware shakedown and frankly little else (the reason it runs at 4-5 fps is because optimizing the code is not the aim of 3DMark, rather the aim is to utterly ravage your systems resources to derive a benchmark value).
Technically, there is relatively little to admire in comparison to a demo like this one.
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I don't think people just dipping their toes into the demoscene will fully appretiate the awesomeness of this production. the sheer sense of magnitude, energy and power that this demo creates through its superb direction is spine-chilling. honestly, this demo is a true milestone. you cannot compare Debris to The Popular Demo by Farb either, they are in a totally different category. Debris is Ghost in the Shell dark-anime, The Popular Demo (which I found totally boring) is Walt Disney. Quality of themes and direction is _all_ in PC demos, nobody cares about technical details (except maybe in 4/64k intros).
also "Amiga scene is better than PC scene" blady blah blah! So boring. They are worlds apart. I love the Amiga scene because it requires that coders MUST understand their system and routines at a low level...which I think is a great virtue. But with abstracted h/w APIs and awesome CPU/GPU power these days, that is not important on the PC scene. Different scenes with different ideals. one is not better than the other but until very recent demos like Debris, the PC has never used its true potential i dont think.
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arkanoid wrote:
also "Amiga scene is better than PC scene" blady blah blah! So boring. They are worlds apart. I love the Amiga scene because it requires that coders MUST understand their system and routines at a low level.
Exactly. That's why I, as a coder, find the PC demoscene boring, and I've been on the scene since around 1988. The PC scene has been boring for many years, and I don't bother following it.
Now it's time for me to apologize. It was not my intentions to ruin this thread with my {bleep}in' and whining :)
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:-D definitely no need for appologies! i think most "coders" will know where you are coming from and it's taken me _ages_ to appretiate that the PC scene could maybe have something to offer the scene, just something different to what we're used to. they seem to be getting their act together (about time!) but the quality PC prods are still VERY thin on the ground that's for sure.
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When some of you pull your heads from the amigahole, you will see that there are lots of excellent pc-demos around, demos which are not only good because they run on a modern hardware, but because there is good design, music, graphics and coding on them.
At least the other oldskoolers *should* know better than to judge a release based on what hardware its run on.
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No this is no one of the best demos every if you ask me..
Its impressive that they have managed to put so high qulity gfx and 7 minute music into a 171kb file archive..
but its was a borring, one time watched demo for me.
I do prefere a old school demo, like the remake of Desert Dream, that was impressive.
RWO
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Personally, I like dark atmosphere "cityscape" type demos. (F.e, Point Blank on PC, Impossible on Amiga.) I'll agree Debris isn't necessarily "deep" (along the lines of, say, time index), but the "mechanical perfection" aspect does capture my interest. Some may find the technical achievement itself deep or moving. Then again, I'm the type who can listen to Art of the Fuge or the Goldberg Variations over and over, and never tire of it. Must be the German in me, LOL.
On the flip side, I also enjoy bright, colorful, "pretty" demos. Most ASD releases are like that. In fact, after watching both, my brother and I came to the conclusion that it's almost unfair to compare noumenon with debris, they're such radically different styles... both artistic/beautiful in their own (very different) ways.
(Actually, I wish I could have recorded my brother's mock "german accent" commentary during Debris... it was absolutely hilarious.)
As an aside, the demo runs almost perfect on my aniquated rig (2.5 GHz Athlon XP, 1 gig RAM, Radeon X800XL). Normal texture size, 1024x768, 2x antialiasing and shadows on. My box is like four years old and it runs well at medium settings, so that's just fine IMHO. (re "needs latest dual core" comment.)
hooligan wrote:
When some of you pull your heads from the amigahole, you will see that there are lots of excellent pc-demos around, demos which are not only good because they run on a modern hardware, but because there is good design, music, graphics and coding on them.
At least the other oldskoolers *should* know better than to judge a release based on what hardware its run on.
Well said. TONS of great PC productions out there. A good demo is a good demo, who cares what it runs on. Look at it this way... it's a perfect use for a PC. :-)
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I have to be honest, I wasn't that impressed with this demo. The music was not exactly exciting IMO, and although it's probably very impressive that all the code for the video was less than 200k, I though the video itself was pretty dull. Also, as others have pointed out, it unpacked for ages before running, so it's not actually 180k...
Let me make it clear that I'm *not* opposed to non-Amiga/C64 demos. In fact I'm not really in to the demo scene at all, so would be impressed by a demo on any platform which had exciting and/or original graphics and music. But consider that this demo had a 1GB OS with a complex graphics API to help it, and those high requirements... I think it could have been a lot better.
I was much more impressed with Starstruck...
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moto
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...it unpacked for ages before running, so it's not actually 180k...
haha :-)