Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: amiga_boy on June 12, 2003, 03:02:19 AM
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In a previous post in the gaming forum I made a comment about the the Amiga hardware being underspecced and overpriced. Oddly for this site, there was no argument against this comment. Do the rest of you feel this way?
I think that a mobo with AGPx2, no FireWire, USB 1.1 etc. simply has to at least try and compete with the latest PC mobo's offering AGPx8, 2 x LAN, RAID, USB 2.0 and the rest. Especially within the A1 price range.
I know the laws of supply and demand are at the thin end of the wedge for the entire Amiga community but surely this was the main reason for the failure of the Boxer.
It started with ISA slots, then, as the supply of ISA cards dried up they changed the spec to PCI. They were always changing the specs to meet the capacity of the current PC market. Surely the next model of Zico spec mobo should at least try to embrace the most up to date, fastest selling (and theoretically cheapest) hardware standards: PC??? RAM, whatever ATA harddrives, the fastest GFX cards etc from the start?
Otherwise we will constantly be playing a catch up game, no matter how lean and efficient our OS is.
I also said the Amiga is already dead if you look at the situation realistically. This is the last thing I want. I love the Amiga. There is nothing else available to replace it (MorphOS is not Amiga in my view).
What we need is a real alternative to the nForce2 mobos and others that will make the Amiga look competitive on the store shelves and online store web pages. Only then can we begin to imagine a comeback.
If you have real suggestions for this, post a response. If you want to moan, FOAD.
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I also said the Amiga is already dead if you look at the situation realistically. This is the last thing I want. I love the Amiga. There is nothing else available to replace it (MorphOS is not Amiga in my view).
Got to love hypocrisy . Sure the PCs users are stupid for following labels like IBM and Microsoft and only caring about the name.
But here you are saying the Amiga One with OS4 is a Amiga while Peagsos with MorphOS is not and OS4 is not even out yet.
Yes Amiga One and OS4 has the name, so what you bought your first Amiga becouse of the name?
MorphOS and Peagos was born form the Amiga industry, runs older Amiga software while getting close to what Amiga OS was.
As far I can see MorphOS is a great clone and just like a Dell is an IBM a Peagos/MorphOS is a Amiga.
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Of course the AmigaOne is out of date, slow and expensive. Eyetech don't have money, skills or experience to develop anything for themselves, so they're stuck selling Mai's board. Theyre a shop, not a hardware manufacturer. Nobody is going to design a new Amiga board.
New Macs have firewire 800, USB 2.0. gigabit ethernet, bluetooth, airport wireless networking, etc etc. Expensive, but you're getting a lot for your money. Teron boards - also expensive, but you're getting something from the stone age (in computing terms).
If you want "real suggestions" then here's one: forget the A1 - it's going nowhere (from what I heard, its sold barely half the number of Peg1's, even though it has "the name") its old, its buggy and its lacking features. Look forward to Pegasos II and pray for certain people to see sense and port AmigaOS4 to it. At least the specs and, importantly, the price, of the Pegasos II mean it has a chance of competing.
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And we're off and running :-D .
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No doubt a "real" hardware alternative is what most people want. I think in the end it's just going to be the OS that will have to draw users back in all the while running on x86 hardware. This is the only way to get power and expansion cheaply and immediately into the hands of old and new users.
Will the OS alone be good enough to do just that? It'll have to be because developing, maintaining and evolving a plarform over time takes a lot of money. And all alternative Amiga hardware platforms have either died or had a tough time even getting started.
I think long-term we won't see any surviving hardware solutions for the Amiga but the x86 option. These PPC mobos will eventually dry up unless there is a huge PPC Linux market just waiting on these boards. I doubt that. Linux is already well established in the x86 platform.
Support for Linux PPC just isn't a priority for any developers. Software or hardware, there's not a big enough market to sustain either an Amiga or Pegasos PPC platform over time.
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Putting aside the A1/AOS vs. Peg/MOS bull that keeps any intelligent discussion from taking place...
The fact is that both the AmigaOne and Pegasos are downright anemic when compared to the 'modern' features of todays 'PCs'. But both camps have to start somewhere. Otherwise, like with the BoXeR, you end up with an utterly vaporware product.
Another fact is that the PPC market will always play catch-up with the 'PC' world. That is unless VIA, SiS, IBM, nVidia, etc. start producing OEM N/S bridge chips for the PPC platform. Which may actually happen, if the PPC alternative niche grows beyond just Macs. But for now, we're going to be stuck with 'small' players like MAI who are more interested in embedded computing than the desktop.
[ Yes, I'm aware that both camps are using VIA southbridges, but I'm sure it would make things a great deal easier if both the N/S bridge where targeted at the PPC platform.]
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Psy wrote:
But here you are saying the Amiga One with OS4 is a Amiga while Peagsos with MorphOS is not and OS4 is not even out yet.
Yes Amiga One and OS4 has the name, so what you bought your first Amiga becouse of the name?
So what if OS4 is not publicly available. Linux with UAE is available, that does not make it Amiga you idiot. MorphOS and Pegasos are 100% NOT Amiga. Forwards compatiblity could be considered Amiga, not backwards compatibility.
No, I bought ALL my Amigas because of the technology, NEVER the name alone (unless you count the fact that the name was not Atari or Amstrad or IBM).
Of course the OS and H/W platform sponsored by the copyright holders is a genuine Amiga. What else could be? Stick an Amiga badge on a PS2 and it's still a PS2, never an Amiga unless it gets integrated into the roadmap for the platforms future, which is decided by the parent company, not the users and certainly not the competitors.
Please try to think a little more before you type. It may also be a good idea to preview each post before you submit. Experience has taught me that the first idea is usually the worst.
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True But unless you want to design a Chipset or pay the big bucks for the developement of a chipset
you are stuck with the current specs. If you think the MAI chipset is obsolete
check out the specs on the Marvell chipset to be used in the PEG2.
It does not even have AGP! Not many companies are willing to make a PPC chipset for a MOBO
so we are currently stuck with what we have.
The lack of USB 2.0 not much of a biggie as you can get a PCI card for that along with firewire the big difference is the Ram speed and the AGP speed.
but for many cases that won't make much of a difference becuase your average Amiga owners are cheap! They would never spend $400 plus dollars on a graphics card or money to buy decent speed DIMMS they would just buy the slowest bargain DDR running at CAS 5 rather than the good stuff at CAS 222
Just look at how many AmigaOne buyers are running thier Amigaones at 100FSB
because they are too cheap to buy the SDRAM from thier dealers because the Amiga Dealer charges $10 dollars more for DIMMS that work properly.
Kurt
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Amiga owners are cheap? Are you insane?
My A1200 PPC tower and A4000 PPC tower both cost well over a thousand pound sterling each. You can get a PC of equal power for a tenth of that price!
And have you seen the prices for the A1 deals?
If that's cheap to you throw your excess cash in my direction friend.
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Got to love hypocrisy . Sure the PCs users are stupid for following labels like IBM and Microsoft and only caring about the name.
What? When i switched from Amiga to PC it was 95ish? or less 92ish?
I switched because Windows had better support for printers etc... and Software... Office, Browser, email etc...
I switched because in my opinion, the harware was cheaper, the software was everywhere and far more powerful. I was only about 15-16 though :) so that had somethign to do with it...
Believe it or not people, MS Windows far outpaced Amiga in terms of development and functionality even back to Windows 95...
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Psy wrote:
As far I can see MorphOS is a great clone and just like a Dell is an IBM a Peagos/MorphOS is a Amiga.
Yeah, like BeOs is Windows!
Seriously, the best thing about starting an opinion driven thread on an Amiga board is the idiotic replies you get. I start these things just to get something (someone) to laugh at.
And there is always at least one ;-)
The above is sarcasm. Often said to be the lowest form of wit but definately beyond the grasp of some readers I see.
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Ehm, I don't get it.
Releasing what you have now, even if it isn't top-of-the-range is BAD (AmigaOne), but pulling back and redesigning is BAD (Boxer). Basically, there's no pleasing you people, is there?
So what we have is that anyone who can't release tomorrows technology yesterday working flawlessly for free shouldn't even try?
Come on. We just went from A1200 with 68060 and kludge galore to a clean implementation of ppc + pci + sdram + usb + ata100.
Surely you don't expect Eyetech to find out that "ooh, the PC world is using S-ATA, PCI-X, DDR and USB 2, we must fall back and redesign immediately" and become another Boxer AND EVERYONE BEING HAPPY ABOUT IT?
I myself would say a working AmigaOne last year makes me more happy than a non-existent Boxer ever will... But that's just me, I guess. Stupid enough to buy an underspecced board to replace my lean, mean (not so green) A1200. Yep, the A1200 beats any known computer, for sure. There's no end to what you can't do with all that CPU power.
And everyone knows you need at least a dual Xeon to write letters to your grandmother.
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olegil wrote:
And everyone knows you need at least a dual Xeon to write letters to your grandmother.
:lol: :lol:
You also forgot the need for the Geforce FX 5800 AGP x8 necessary to run Incredimail :-P .
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Well.. the AmigaOne is only the first step. It is about bringing the current Amiga-users a faster platform. OS4 can now easily be ported to new hardware with that hardware-abstraction layer they built in.
So once it is completed it should be very easy to port the OS to new kick-ass hardware as soon as someone decides to produce a truely new machine.... at least.. that's what I think :-)
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@olegil:
Ignore the guy, he's just a troll. First he says he's just back from saying the AOne is overpriced (that battle was fought LONG ago in the flamefields of the land of ann), then there's this priceless quote:
I start these things just to get something (someone) to laugh at.
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The thing you are missing in your argument is that yeah - the PC world is way ahead of us in Raw computing power. A 2ghz P4 w/latest Ram and Grafx card technology makes a PPC G3@600mhz w/Voodoo AGP look weak on PAPER.. But, you have to Run Windows on it! Or if you are lucky (or smart) Linux.. runnning MorphOs on a G3 is Blazing fast and I'm sure os4 for A1 will be very quick and make the p4 2ghz seems slow in comparison.. Raw hardware is only part of the formula. You need a fast lean OS to take advantage of it.
magnetic
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> I start these things just to get something (someone) to laugh at.
Soooooo you admit to starting this on purpose just for the fun of creating a flame war!
:pint: TROLLS :pint:
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amiga_boy wrote:
What we need is a real alternative to the nForce2 mobos
I recall there was an interview with some nVidia 'senior' employee that they are open for nForce based chipset for the PPC market (i.e. principally for the Apple market) IF the newer PPC CPUs are designed close enough to X86’s signalling characteristics then they will have a solution for this market segment.
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by amiga_boy:
... If you have real suggestions for this, post a response...
I have some insider info !!!
The next generation Amiga will be named Amiga 9000 NG and will powered by :
1) Motorola PPC G9 at 5ghz
2) Chipset AAA++ NG that will destroy ATI, Nvidia & company graphic and audio chips
3) Super efficient technology to "Boing the World !" TM
It will be manifactured from the new brand "Next Commodore Technologies Inc." of course...
:-D :-D :-D
:-D ;-) :-D
:-D :-D :-D
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In a previous post in the gaming forum I made a comment about the the Amiga hardware being underspecced and overpriced. Oddly for this site, there was no argument against this comment. Do the rest of you feel this way?
Absolutely!
The reasons for this are twofold:
1) The AmigaOne has been in development for a long period, thus the orginal specs are obsolete.
2) The factor of including APG 8x etc would push up both the retail and development costs.
Furthermore, when measured against our existing hardware, even the AmigaOne/Pegasos etc present a huge leap forward in terms for performance. However, it does leave me feeling a little short changed when I see the stuff shipping on a £100 PC motherboard these days..... Even without the performance draining OS, the AmigaOne/Pegasos will struggle to be competitive in raw performance terms. I suppose this makes the Pegasos 2 a compelling arguement.
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Of course the OS and H/W platform sponsored by the copyright holders is a genuine Amiga. What else could be? Stick an Amiga badge on a PS2 and it's still a PS2, never an Amiga unless it gets integrated into the roadmap for the platforms future, which is decided by the parent company, not the users and certainly not the competitors
So I'm not using an IBM since it is differnt then IBM's PS/2 road map IBM had way back when?
I don't care if Amiga Inc has the offical name or not that is just a name. Besides if Genesi wanted to they could contest the copyright on the name Amiga for the reason it is a spanish word and you can't copyright single words.
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Quote...
I have some insider info !!!
The next generation Amiga will be named Amiga 9000 NG and will powered by :
1) Motorola PPC G9 at 5ghz
2) Chipset AAA++ NG that will destroy ATI, Nvidia & company graphic and audio chips
3) Super efficient technology to "Boing the World !" TM
It will be manifactured from the new brand "Next Commodore Technologies Inc." of course...
You Sure? GIMMIE GIMMIE GIMMIE!
will proberbly cost like $6000 or some rediculous amount of money, so will flop.
i wont hold my breath.
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@ _LinchpiN_
NO! I want to play £20 for it, that's all I will pay, and I want it NOW! Oh yeah, and every game on the planet has to be ported to it the moment I buy the hardware.
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think that a mobo with AGPx2, no FireWire, USB 1.1 etc. simply has to at least try and compete with the latest PC mobo's offering AGPx8, 2 x LAN, RAID, USB 2.0 and the rest. Especially within the A1 price range.
As of yet none of my pc motherboards has firewire its more common on macs, and usb2 is the more popular choice.and AGPx8, does not make much diffrence with the latest graphics cards. :-?
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Darth_X wrote:
Soooooo you admit to starting this on purpose just for the fun of creating a flame war!
No that was sarcasm, but it certainly rattled your cage.
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amiga_boy wrote:
Darth_X wrote:
Soooooo you admit to starting this on purpose just for the fun of creating a flame war!
No that was sarcasm, but it certainly rattled your cage.
One way or another.. this discussion is pointless anyhow. Having bunch of companies that can't even deliver years old stuff it's not much poin on dreaming about any upcoming products.
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by mikeymike on 2003/6/12 15:42:08
NO! I want to play £20 for it, that's all I will pay, and I want it NOW! Oh yeah, and every game on the planet has to be ported to it the moment I buy the hardware.
Ok ! I have mailed the new Commodore and they say that your requests will be satisfied... :-P :-P :-D
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Ahh, I kinda missed the good troll thread with 2-3 days of peace and quietness.
Let it rip, girls! You got alot of catching up to do :-D :-D
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Hey, I run Amiga OS 3.9 on my nforce2 motherboard no problem...with Amithlon of course.
And its lightning fast, taking advantage of my dual channel DDR memory @ 400MHz DDR and GeForce 3 graphics card.
Ok, I can't use the onboard soundstorm audio or the onboard 100Mbit nic, but i just use PCI cards which Amithlon supports for that.
Amiga is never going to be able to fully leverage all the current technologies the PC is using today - and the reason is ... PowerPC. Unless you are an Apple and have millions to spend designing your own motherboards, you aren't going to get that. There really isn't a market for a desktop PowerPC platform outside of the AmigaOne and Pegasos. And those companies developing those boards don't have the cash required...
The closest you will come will be the Pegasos II which will support DDR333 and gigabit ethernet. But then again, you won't be running Amiga OS 4 on it.
HammerD
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@ HammerD
Amiga is never going to be able to fully leverage all the current technologies the PC is using today - and the reason is ... PowerPC
Never say never... imho. :-)
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@ mikeymike
£20 would be nice. You got one for sale?
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I think your missing the point on this.
It was never meant to compete with PC or Mac.
The A1 was seen as a modern machine for only a short time. It is a vehicle to move the community away from the 68K to native PPC.
It is the slowdown in OS4 development that has caused a slowdown in the hardware development.
We all wish the prices were lower but that is the current state of affairs. I am sure Eyetech and Hyperion are the first to hope for lower prices and hence faster sales.
Valan
Ps.
Even with the facilities of a 'modern' computer with Firewire, Bluetooth, USB2, etc; there are very few times when these can be taken advantage of.
For instance my printer speed depends on the print mechanics rather than the data transfer speed and the same with my CD writer.
The card that fits into my camera transfers files at USB1 speeds even when connected to a USB2 device. Bluetooth is only useful if you have a second Bluetooth specific device and the same for Firewire since most have USB1 as well.
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@ _LinchpiN_
Sorry, only prototypes. I can't sell them. There are also issues running the G9 at anything above 5GHz, I'm trying to fix that problem at the moment. However, I've written a G9-optimised Quake 3 executable that loads all the pak files into the 1GB L2 cache, and 2048x1536 timedemos are going at ~1047FPS. Trying to tweak that a bit more.
It should be ready for mass production "real soon now". Unfortunately the price might have to go up to £25.
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@ Valan
It is the slowdown in OS4 development that has caused a slowdown in the hardware development.
I don't think so somehow :-)
There are a few reasons why PPC architecture has been slow:
- Motorola don't care
- PPC doesn't sell even 5% as much as x86 does, therefore less funds for development
- Apple like blatantly overpricing their stuff (IMO)
- When there's only one significant vendor for a particular architecture, there's no competition, where there's no competition there's no development*, and this all equals expensive hardware.
It has nothing to do with OS4.
* - ooh, that was nearly a Yoda EP1 quote in the making :-)
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@ Mickeymike
It has nothing to do with OS4.
Hard to believe, but OS4 relates directly to the sales of A1 hardware. Therefore there is no point in developing new hardware when there is no Amiga OS suitable to run on it.
Even though Motorola 'don't care' IBM is developing the PPC family to the point were it can compete with Intel and AMD on the desktop later this year.
Valan
PS.
Not sure about this connection, but anyway even with Apples high prices they are selling and gaining in their targeted markets.
IBM is competing in the server market with the PPC and doing well. Now we are seeing that technology moving down to the desktop as it too moves to 64 bit later this year.
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@ Valan
Hard to believe, but OS4 relates directly to the sales of A1 hardware.
Ho ho ho. Except that no-one to do with the AmigaOne or OS4 designed the Articia S chipset, which holds back a number of innovations being possible. The Articia S chipset was already designed and its capabilities have not changed due to A1/OS4. A1/OS4 would have to sell in the hundreds of thousands of units, rather than a thousand or so units, if its backers could start calling the shots with chipset development.
Even though Motorola 'don't care' IBM is developing the PPC family to the point were it can compete with Intel and AMD on the desktop later this year.
Except of course for the small fact that OS4 isn't compatible with the new PPC CPU (the 970?) that IBM designed, and obviously won't be compatible with any of its children. That'll require more developer time, which might, if we're lucky, come in the shape of an OS4 update, but more likely to be a new version.
Not sure about this connection, but anyway even with Apples high prices they are selling and gaining in their targeted markets.
A drop compared to the ocean of x86 sales, which translates through to funding for development of the x86 architecture even further.
The only way I can see things getting significantly better regarding PPC development would be for the following to happen:
1> AmigaOS 4 + later releases combined with A1 hardware sell in phenominal amounts;
2> This causes Apple to change its tune and bring its prices down, which gets it more sales;
3> The combined increased popularity warrants more funds allocated to the development of the PPC architecture, CPUs as well as chipset;.
4> PPC begins to cut down the huge performance lead x86 has on it.
This might happen over a 10 year span, IMO. By step 4 I'd guess that the fastest x86 CPUs will be at least 5 times faster than their PPC competitors.
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Hello people.
If I might, I have an oppinion. It's just an oppinion, but oppinions are those things that I act on...
Windows is a great consept, an excelent idea. But it still does not work the way I believe it should. Just an oppinion. I think Microsoft is stupid. Just another oppinion. Why? Because I don't believe in an OS (WindowsXP) that requires almost 3 seconds to create a folder. I don't like Windows at all.
I have been using my first Amiga since friday the 13th of June 1991. And I stick to it because I support the consept. But I only got a 68040 / 603 and I very often feel that the speed is a bit slow. Just an oppinion. So I want something faster, with the same consept as my old Amiga. The Pegasos with MorphOS already has that. Does it not? The only problem is that I can't run any of the older hardware-banging programs programs on MorphOS. But hey, that's already a problem on my existing classic Amiga.
As long as the Pegasos with MorphOS keeps their consept, I'm buying one. I need a computer that can let me do mp3, surf on the internet, coding, and write documents. The 68k emulator is not a requirement, just an excelent bonus. Just an oppinion. If I want to run 68k 100% compatible, I'll buy myselves an A1200 with an 68060 inside.
For me it's no longer about having the Amiga label. It's about having the Amiga consept. And for me the Pegasos with MorphOS is 100% Amiga consept. And that's Amiga enough for me. It does not matter if AmigaOS 4 runs on Pegasos or not. As long as MorphOS does what it's supposed to do. Just an oppinion.
Hell! I'm getting myselves a Pegasos2. The rest of you, do what YOU want :-)
Greets
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Unless you are an Apple...
No I am a PINEapple
Not sure about this connection, but anyway even with Apples high prices they are selling and gaining in their targeted markets.
I think the high prices allow them to keep developing and keep from going bankrupt (but they already have been there once haven't they(?)) Commodore or any other Amiga producer was never able to compete as soon as they were essentially selling to a hobbyist's market. You can get away with charging high prices when you are selling to companies with boundless coffers. No offence to anyone here, but Amiga has been nothing but a hobbyist's machine (barring perhaps video editing) for the last ten years.
It really is impressive that these alternative Amiga solutions even exist for people to argue about incessantly, as there is no corporate need for them.
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No offence to anyone here, but Amiga has been nothing but a hobbyist's machine (barring perhaps video editing) for the last ten years.
I would agree - and would further say that it's been slipping out of video editing for the last 5.
The toaster, like the Amiga it was made for was a fantastic bit of kit when it came out - but it's slowly being left behind in the wake of 'bigger - faster - better - cheaper'.
I still keep one (old and tempremental though it may be) for live switching on mulitple camera shoots, and it won't be long till the price of a production board edges it out there.
Siggy.
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The problem is the whole aproach to the hardware issue. Since Amiga has decided to create the OS and don't care about hardware, you'll never have a product that you can call "revolutionary" in the sense of the Amiga500 or attract a lot of users to the platform. Basically, the traditional hardware market is already taken by Apple, MS, Linux, Ati and Nvidia.
What is needed is a whole new platform. I know some will say the days of custom hardware are over, and I believed so some time ago as well, but talking to someone who's quite a genious in hardware and low-level coding, I'm becoming conviced that it is possible to create a whole new platform that truly embarasses those companies that now claim to have the ultimate saying when it comes to hardware innovation.
It has to be a whole new concept that is not concerned with issues of backwards compatibility. This is not only at hardware level but also at OS level.
I have no doubt that OS4 will very interesting, but alone it will never have the capacity to be on top.
That of course doesn't mean we can't have a nice community around it (as I hope will be the case), but to rule the world a much larger scale effort would be needed at hardware/os/applications level.
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I think that a mobo with AGPx2, no FireWire, USB 1.1 etc. simply has to at least try and compete with the latest PC mobo's offering AGPx8, 2 x LAN, RAID, USB 2.0 and the rest. Especially within the A1 price range.
it is not in direct competition, so who cares??
amigaone will probably mainly be aimed at developers anyway
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The problem is the whole aproach to the hardware issue. Since Amiga has decided to create the OS and don't care about hardware, you'll never have a product that you can call "revolutionary" in the sense of the Amiga500
That's why Amiga should go X86. The next 'Revolution' Amiga is on the virge of is not making hardware, but taking the hardware that's out there and doing amazing things with it. Things that you CAN'T accomplish running Windows or Linux on that same hardware.
Everytime Nvidia or who ever comes out with a new product, it needs to be AmigaOS that exploits that hardware beyond what even the designers imagined. Things that would impossible with any other OS.
That what will make AmigaOS revolutionary again.
AmigaGuy
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i just want to say something here.
to me amigaone is an AMIgA , pegasos aint an amiga but an standalone machine that CAN emulate amiga if needed.
but the main problem is , it lives and breeds on the AMIGA term still even if its not supposed to (pegasos) , how come? ..because its made by fellow amiga people and was actually started out as the followup os to 3.9 ...infact it was started so early that it was supposed to be OS3.2-> but for ppc , but amiga.inc didnt like that idea and dumped that... but then os4 plans came again and this time as ppc...
so there is a twist between pegasos users and amiga one users...STILL...i understand that but,
pegasos is to me stILL just an STANDALONE machine that can emulate amiga and not an amiga.
but they keep on selling it as THE NEW AMIGA and the users KEEPS on saying its an amiga, and this is what makes me mad, as it AINT and amiga.
BBrv has got many requests from amiga for the liscense buy to get os4 on pegasos but bbrv doesnt want to have that.
(read the damn interviews guys)
so where is the problem? , is it the users or is it the owner of pegasos....
anyway i like it as its now...pegasos has MOS ...a1 has OS4 , why? because it actucally seems like pegasos can make some competetion in the market (their prices are lower etc) so in the end amiaone will be lowered in price aswell.
anyway this was my opinion shared with amiga and pegasos/genesi or whatever they are called now :) 's opiniions mixed together (hopefully i didnt type to much wrong here)
just let there be 2 markets, amiga has a plan, so does hyperion and so does genesi (if thats their name still) , follow them and dont fable about other stuff until its proven otherwise by the ACTUAL owners of the projects.
btw a last comment is, anyone noticed how the market now is sliding a apart? , mos moving with special titles and aos4 doing the same? , ie games that wont run on os4...only MOS .. and the otherway around..., imho this is NOT a good idea for a big catalouge in the start, why? because it will confuse the mass market, how come? because pegasos owners (THe USERS) still claim pegasos is as MUCH amiga as AMIGAONE IS. , anyone understanding what i am trying to say here? .
maybe we will get thoose questions again..., ATARI ^ amiga .., i went to a store today and bought an game for my ATARI , but it doesnt work on my amiga. (because on the box it said, screenshots from AMIGA version) .... yes this is how it was, if u have forgotten it..., well then its too longs since amiga was in a mass market etc.
(ok maybe i was abit silly there... :) )
cheers
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lempkee wrote:
to me amigaone is an AMIgA , pegasos aint an amiga but an standalone machine that CAN emulate amiga if needed.
but the main problem is , it lives and breeds on the AMIGA term still even if its not supposed to (pegasos) , how come? ..because its made by fellow amiga people and was actually started out as the followup os to 3.9
I imagine a big factor is the fact that it's backwardly compatible with 68k Amiga software. To many, the features are more important than who has the trademark.
I mean, at the end of the day, the AmigaOne will also a standalone machine which can emulate 68k Amiga if needed. One machine is officially an Amiga, the other is a clone.
If OS4 gets released then the chances are that the two platforms will diverge in future - in which case, MorphOS will become less of an Amiga clone - perhaps a similar situation to OS/2 and Windows 95 following on from DOS/Windows.
Even now, people refer to MorphOS as "MorphOS" and not "AmigaOS". To be honest, I'm sure I see more people complaining that x (be it MorphOS, Amithlon, etc) isn't an Amiga, than people claiming it is..
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The problem with going to x86 is the massive hurdles faced when trying to support every x86 combo under the sun. Hyperion are a small company and if they want to make their OS viable, then they will opt for a smaller number of mainboards to support. I agree with them on this part.
Of course if they had the corporate muscle of Sony or Microsoft, then they would have no reason to make such concessions. Having said that, I look at OS4 as a stopgap in having a more advanced solution, compared to the old classic Amiga line.
I don't see the point in discussing why OS4 won't go x86 or why it won't have custom chips? Its a moot point. Everyone knows that its money and market forces. So ask yourself this, will x86 survive indefinitely? Eventually there will be 64 bit computing, and believe me Intel are having big problems with maintaining native backwards compatibility. I think that in the next few short years, Intel and AMD and especially M$ will be facing the same kinds of problems Apple faced when going PPC, or what we are facing right now. The difference will be that Amiga by that time will be well and truly established on PPC. It can only get better from there on.
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KingTutt wrote:
The problem with going to x86 is the massive hurdles faced when trying to support every x86 combo under the sun. Hyperion are a small company and if they want to make their OS viable, then they will opt for a smaller number of mainboards to support. I agree with them on this part.
You don't have to. They can simply only support one, or a small number of x86 motherboards. You could say a similar thing for PPC, since industry standard hardware will still be used - eg, claiming that having PCI slots means that have to support every PCI graphics card under the sun, so they'd be better off with AGA or Zorro.
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@mikeymike
Please stick to vaguely to the topic of the post.
Anyway,
Ho ho ho. Except that no-one to do with the AmigaOne or OS4 designed the Articia S chipset,
Um, that's why they said it is an 'off the shelf' design.
Apple to change its tune and bring its prices down, which gets it more sales;
Not really realistic as Apple is competing against PC machines and they still they maintain their high price.
Back on topic:
I do not see the future of Amiga hardware as dependant on PPC development. AI have stated that they want a truly hardware independent machine where the same software will run without modification on all AmigaOS compatible CPUs.
As we hear constantly the true pace of development comes from funds which ultimately come from sales.
Valan
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@ ALL
ok get ready, this is a long one...
ok I did not have the patience to read each and every one of these posts, but I have to mention something that may shock you, ready?, ok here it goes, I still know and associate with people that still use an AMD 850&1000 Mhz Atholon processor with a cheap old TNT 2 graphics card, I only use a tiny 1.4Ghz Amd with just an old fashioned Geforce 2 MX, and along with me and my friends and family, we dont really see a need to upgrade any further at all, our systems run fine and we are happy.
True as it may be, I did kinda sell off all my amiga systems, now I am left with just 2 A500 mobos, but that does not mean that I would never consider the AmigaOne, I can deal with an 800 Mhz machine for as long as it has Amiga OS 4 or comparable OS to Amiga OS, I am going to review the pegasus and amigaone at the QAUG (Queens amiga users Group) meeting this weekend. I dont like linux, and I dont care what you say, it sucks and is only for for egg heads, but I will waite to see where the latest amiga motherboards go, I consider the peg board and the AmigaOne both Amiga's just like the IBM and a clone from (pick any company) is a PC. My whole thing is SOFTWARE, I WANT TO SEE SOFTWARE, GOOD STUFF, NOT THE LATEST AMINET CRAP!!, that will be the deciding factor in my purchase, good software, and software that can be purchased through the locale store (optimum) not this mail order crap.
Maybe if the people who make the AmigaOne motherboards and the pegasus motherboards would come together with hyperion with the OS or what ever, then go out kiss up and suck ass to the business world thats out there like Microsoft and Apple did, and also donate systems to schools and universities, and also try to get contracts from companies to use the amiga systems like both IBM APPLE, Gateway, Hewlett Packerd, Comcrap oops I mean Compaq does then yea, I can see a viable future for our beloved new systems, the market for amiga will widen, the demand will be more and development will be great! (nice dream eh?) but untill they really put there best foot forward and try to get out of this niche market none of this will ever happen, there are also companies that could sponcer up and comming technologies, if they would just assert themselves.
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Hi,
My fastest PC is 900 mhz and I am completely happy with it. My fastest Amiga runs a ppc at 210 mhz and I am completely happy with that.
The only thing I can say is who cares about techno freaks now who want the latest and greatest, if Amiga is to exist we have to support it now and buy the low end junk so that later on someone will have the bucks to build the higher end junk.
Don't know about you all, but I sure don't want to see winblows as the only OS left in the fray. So buy Amiga, it may not be high end but it may be some day.
Smerf
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@rodney
Boy were you a sucker for marketting.
Only until recently has my PC finally outpaced my Amiga. Until last year when I puchased a XP2100+ Machine. Until that time my Amiga scanned and printed many times faster than my 1.4gig Thunderbird. I also surfed using Ibrowse becuase IE was slower on most sites. I still use YAM for my mailer Mainly for Virus protection.
PS turboprint and Scanquix still do a better job scanning and printing than my PC. In fact my boss made a comment to me how the print quality of my documents had gone down. I had switched from final writer97 to wordperfect Office 2002.
Turboprint is true 24bit
WINDOWS is 12bit dithered to 24bit makes a big diff printing pictures.
Nothing on the PC seems to compare to scanquix for speed and quality.
I am writng this on my A1200T using Ibrowse.
Your comment about 95 outpacing the Amiga Nope not a chance unless you where using an unexpanded A500 and 1.2 maybe??
I agree with others on this thread software matters that is why I Still use my A1200 and all the great software that is on it.
many times I pass documents and pictures back and forth on the network switching with my KVM using a package on the Amiga and the PC getting the best of both worlds to easily accomplish my tasks. My PC may be top of the line but it still can't do everything as well as my A1200 can.
New does not mean better .
goodnight
Kurt
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kurt: great examples , thats how i always was to my miggy and always will be.
anyway i dont own an pc and i have no need to use one either, but i know what it is ,) i was an Network admin for win systems and mac/linux for 3 years , after that ..well i wont touch a pc any longer.
its now 2 years since i touched a pc, i have loads of friends who use pc everyday, but i have no interests and i get lazy when i used pc...
there is a few things i miss on amiga that pc have but they aint making me think of an pc, stuff like Lightwave 6 and 7 , photoshop xxx etc, but i can live with imagefx and photogenics and lw 5 for now.
but i want JAVA really bad.... so amizilla i want ya :)
pps. the moral is , take what u got and do the best with it , i have a setup that i have used over 2000 quid on, and i have an amigaone also, and they doesnt make me lazy , i am actual productive on theese setups, on the damn pc's all i did was use alot of time on crap that no one know why was crashing/bugging or endless of unuseable features.
cheers
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mdwh2 wrote:
KingTutt wrote:
The problem with going to x86 is the massive hurdles faced when trying to support every x86 combo under the sun. Hyperion are a small company and if they want to make their OS viable, then they will opt for a smaller number of mainboards to support. I agree with them on this part.
You don't have to. They can simply only support one, or a small number of x86 motherboards. You could say a similar thing for PPC, since industry standard hardware will still be used - eg, claiming that having PCI slots means that have to support every PCI graphics card under the sun, so they'd be better off with AGA or Zorro.
Actually the Scitech deal pretty much takes care of the "all the PCI cards under the sun issue", besides most people won't be using some Trident or Tseng Labs 1980s video card. And since Scitech already cater for a respectable amount of video drivers, its only fair for the OS4 user to use a video card from the list provided.
I still don't consider x86 a viable platform for Amiga. Maybe when they hit 64bit Opterons. But for the meantime there really isn't any real impetus. And then there's the question of porting already existing PPC Amiga software to x86, not to mention 68k code. That would really mess things up, quite nicely.
So in my mind, Hyperion have gone with the best choice for a niche market OS. Trying to go for the x86 platform would have undermined its interests considerably.
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To Amiga_boy:
People like you are the delight of hardware manufacturers. You have to have the latest hardware, even though it doesn't make a bit of difference to what you're doing (games). Frankly I'm tired of the hardware snobs who are deluded enough to think they have the latest hardware (since something new comes out every day).
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Hi lempkee,
I bad mouthed winblows, every chance I had, all the way until I got a pc in Aug. 2002.
Then I found out how awful w98se was. Get this. I downloaded the update, then, after a couple of weeks freecell wouldn't work, gave me the "blue screen of death". Like how do you download only ONE piece of SW? I didn't try, but it probably would have complained that I already have the newest update installed.
I had to re-install every 2 months. Games may, or may not work. Install wizards and constant updates and the re-boots, and safe boots, and driver updates, registry, shut down procedure, etc....aaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!! :-x
xp doesn't work as advertised, either.They show people flying, sure!
AmigaOne! I'm getting One (G4) by October 2003!
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not really wanting to side with either side, Amiga or Microsoft, but I have to say for those of you that has had alot of trouble with win98, win98se, ok win98 and 98se sucks donky d!ck, and XP is just a broken slob of an OS, but I realy do have to say that I dont really think that most of you really know how to operate a PC computer running those OS's, NOW NOW BEFOR YOU ALL GET YOU PANTIES IN A BUNCH, on my laptop, there is win 98 since the release of 98, as a matter of fact it is the original manufacture install, and it runs fine, never had to reload it, my amd 1.4Ghz tower PC is windows 2000, windows XP and Mandrake Linux 9.0 (I am going to reformat the linux partition cause linux just blows) but I have never had to reformat my 2000 partition since I got it installed 2&1/2 years ago, XP I have reformated at least twice for virus though no fault of its own
Why do you guys have so many problems with your PC's, I am sure I do the same as you did, play games download music, surf internet, voice chat, video conferance, video edit (I love firewire) and word, excel, power point, outlook, and watch movies. What is it that you guys are doing wrong that I am not? I kinda feel left out of the bitching circle for amiga users that hate other OS's.
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not really wanting to side with either side, Amiga or Microsoft, but I have to say for those of you that has had alot of trouble with win98, win98se, ok win98 and 98se sucks donky d!ck, and XP is just a broken slob of an OS, but I realy do have to say that I dont really think that most of you really know how to operate a PC computer running those OS's
@Warpiper
You may be right. I think the answer might be much simpler.. I have a friend with a PC running Win98. He's perfectly computer literate. He's had much more problems than me.. for one simple reason I think. He tries out a substantially greater amount of software than I do. I hardly ever install new software on my PC, and I've never had to reinstall Win98 (2 years so far).
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@jahc
I am always installing new software, but never to my main boot drive, always to a differant partition or a second hard drive.
oh by the way, sorry if it seems like I come off like a know-it-all ass wipe in that last post, I just didn't know of a better way of expressing myself, and I am far from knowing all of anything.
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@ Valan
Please stick to vaguely to the topic of the post.
We're talking about potential hardware development of the Amiga platform, right? So what's your point here?
Have you completely forgotten the content of your post on page 2:
It is the slowdown in OS4 development that has caused a slowdown in the hardware development.
I was pointing out that your statement was flawed, then you responded with:
Um, that's why they said it is an 'off the shelf' design.
So what the heck has PPC development got to do with OS4's delays, I ask you? It was you who said it, not me!
Not really realistic as Apple is competing against PC machines and they still they maintain their high price.
I'm not sure what you mean by this.
Back on topic:
I do not see the future of Amiga hardware as dependant on PPC development.
Do you find it fun to go off-topic yourself, accuse others of it, then get "back on topic"? Pot > Kettle. Seriously.
AI have stated that they want a truly hardware independent machine where the same software will run without modification on all AmigaOS compatible CPUs.
That was regarding the first designs for the AmigaOne. That requirement is out of date now. Until AI/Hyperion say anything different, I think you'll find that since then AmigaOS development has been all in the direction of porting to PPC and continuing on that platform.
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@pioneer
To Amiga_boy:
People like you are the delight of hardware manufacturers. You have to have the latest hardware, even though it doesn't make a bit of difference to what you're doing (games). Frankly I'm tired of the hardware snobs who are deluded enough to think they have the latest hardware (since something new comes out every day).
How do you know what peopl are doing with the hardware they are purchasing? There are a lot more uses for computers than just games you know.
Sorry you're tired of people buying new hardware. I'm sure you're still using the 1st computer you ever purchased and never bought new hardware.
If something NEW comes out and I think I could use it or would enjoy using it (how dare I enjoy something) then yeah I'll probably buy it. Does that make Hardware Manufacture's like me? Probably. That's the whole point right. Companies keep coming up with new and cool things to sell? You make it sound bad as if no new hardware should ever be made. What's the point of being in the "Computing World" then. Leave.
AmigaGuy
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Buying new hardware keeps the second user market thriving as well.
How many people have bought something second hand because someone has upgrade.
The voodoo3 here in My Amiga1 is second hand.
My A4000 is now up for grabs as a result of me upgrading to an A1
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So I'm not using an IBM since it is differnt then IBM's PS/2 road map IBM had way back when?
I don't care if Amiga Inc has the offical name or not that is just a name. Besides if Genesi wanted to they could contest the copyright on the name Amiga for the reason it is a spanish word and you can't copyright single words.
@Psy
Infact yes you can copyright a single word, existing or madeup.
If what your saying was true im sure the courts would of stoped Amiga from ever beeing used in the first place for all these years.
Microsoft have copyrighted Windows & we all know that the word windows has been around far longer than microsoft & another MS-Word
You can link almost any word you like to a product line. Once you do so im most cases no one else can use that name on similar products.
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Why do you guys have so many problems with your PC's, I am sure I do the same as you did, play games download music, surf internet, voice chat, video conferance, video edit (I love firewire) and word, excel, power point, outlook, and watch movies. What is it that you guys are doing wrong that I am not? I kinda feel left out of the bitching circle for amiga users that hate other OS's.
The issues I've seen with XP aren't serious.. Just annoying. I never could figure out why there were times the taskbar wouldn't pop up as it should. The last time it happened, I took a screen grab of it. It shows the Start menu (minus the actual start button itself), but the taskbar was no where to be seen. And yes, it is selected to always be on top.
I just got tired of dealing with that same old crap over and over again.
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@ Mikeymike
The term 'hardware' does not mean CPU solely or graphics cad or chipset. It was not meant to suggest the PPC at all. MaybeI should be more definative and say 'Amiga hardware' or 'marketable Amigax hardware'.
'Hardware development' as in the hardware that has direct relevance to Amiga i.e the Eyetech Amiga range. Eyetech have always stated that they would use 'off the shelf' technology where they could. They are however developing the progress and expansion of thier Amigax hardware range for AI.
'It is the slowdown in OS4 development that has caused a slowdown in the Eyetech Amigax hardware progress development.' Is this better for you to read?
You stated that Apple would lower the price if a competative Amiga pushed them I was observing that they already had an uphill struggle against PCs but they still have thier high prices.
The original post was concerned about the hardware in general rather than just the state of the PPC used in the AmigaOne. So 'Back on topic' refered to comments that talked about the general state rather than talking about specifics of just one chip.
I remember the first stage was always to bring new hardware that used the PPC along with a more modern OS. PPC was chosen since there is already software that utilises it. Later afterOS5.x the Amiga will be more(but not totally) hardware independent.
I like and agree with what has been said by Kurt and Warpiper. We should look beyond the marketers fancy talk and look at the results.
Valan
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To Amigaguy:
Hardware snobs have to buy the latest video card and cpu to get a couple more frames per second in Quake (or the latest repetitive shooter). The difference in sound, graphics, and speed between adequate hardware and the latest is barely perceptible to the human senses. The point I'm making is modestly performing computers like the AmigaOne will handle just about any game or application. I didn't mean to get you so riled up. We're just talking about computers, right?
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In my Opinion. It's whiny to ask for cheaper board. Eyetech are just trying to stay in business, with prices set for a rather obviously small market. Ever notice how 3D animation software is so expensive? That's not because it's harder to develop than a lot of stuff out there, but because it targets a very small market, and it certainly isn't easier to develop either, they need the money for further development, it's how capitalism and the dollar votes work. So what if you don't get firwires, only thing I see running on them is hardware that has USB clones, or sony stuff (Betamax anyone :-x ?). The full computer (cd-burner harddrive and all) can still be made for under 1000$ dollars, sure it's not cutting edge, but its a heck of a lot better than what's out there. Sure the Pegasos had a much better price, when/if it releases Pegasos2 will be even better. Well maybe if Eyetech can make them the later boards will be better too. Looking at what I use on my PC board, I could still hook up everything into an AmigaOne board, my printer, camera (USB), monitor, keyboard). Ethernet's a card, GFX are all done from a card, mind you, I have a 2000$ Sony Vaio. Make do with what you have now, and support the companies you like with your 'voting' and push for better, you'll have a better chance getting it. So what horrible bugs have the current users of A1 hardware encountered, anyone? It's a good computer, so what if you don't get a gazillion plugs for more hardware than most people own, to do so many many things, like 95% of computing, you only need a couple hundred Megahertz of computing power, I use 400Mhz machines at work with Windows Xp, not fast, but it won't kill me, gets the job done.
Maybe I should just start using povray instead of Bryce (sarcasm, mmm-kay?) Cause I sure as heck know povray is cheaper, and it works faster too(just compare the resources using bryce requires to what using povray requires, considering povray 5.1 runs on amigas, although no ports have been done since).
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I think that a mobo with AGPx2, no FireWire, USB 1.1 etc. simply has to at least try and compete with the latest PC mobo's offering AGPx8, 2 x LAN, RAID, USB 2.0 and the rest. Especially within the A1 price range.
I also said the Amiga is already dead if you look at the situation realistically. This is the last thing I want. I love the Amiga. There is nothing else available to replace it (MorphOS is not Amiga in my view).
What we need is a real alternative to the nForce2 mobos and others that will make the Amiga look competitive on the store shelves and online store web pages. Only then can we begin to imagine a comeback.
Well, you don't really an AGP*16 but indeed some AGP stuuf would be nice
Well, indeed MorphOS in not an Amiga. the Amiga is a computer, MorphOS is an OS...
Could you please explain why MorphOS is not close to the AmigaOS ?
We don't really need a killing gfx card, because all the AGP card should work on current hardware (I mean LinuxOne AND Pegasos). What we need is a good OS (MorphOS in my point of view), with drivers and many software (game, office stuff, broswer ...)
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@ jeffimix
ok, I will bite....
I happen to think that you are wrong about its whiney to ask for a lower price on the motherboard, sorry, I am looking forward to supporting the new system with a real OS (not linux) but I fear the huge price in the motherboard itself, man its alot, ok if the motherboard was like, lets say, $350 to $400, I would not even think a for a secound, I would just go and get it, thats it, but since most PC motherboards today go for between $70 to $120 and a 1.4 Ghz processor you can get for about on average (between AMD and Intel) $86 to 116, you are still looking at a cost (if the top of the line amigaone board was $400) on average about $200 more than that the PC equipment just mentioned, thats about double the price just for what is a niche market, and that would be fine, but no, the top of the line AmigaOne motherboard and processor is what $800?, I am not too sure, thats 4 times the price of the PC equipment mentioned above, 4 TIMES MAN!!!! COME ON, you dont see that as much to bitch about, then I need to live a few years in your shoes.
this is just my take on it and I am sure its the rest of everybody else's who are not walking around with money dripping from orifices that need not be mentioned here.
Please correct me if I am wrong on the price for the top of the line AmigaOne mobo, I compared the top of the line A1 board to 1.4 Ghz Pprocessor with both very desent AMD and P4 motherboards becuase their processors and motherboards are faster than that of the AmigaOne's.
Its not about what comes on the motherboard and all its toys (sure they are nice but...), well you get the picture I am sure.
there just has to be somthing more there to intrest us in buying a AmigaOne motherboard besides that fact that you can someday run a PPC version of Amiga OS
Warpiper
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Well, the comparison has been made here with VHS/Betamax... It's the marketing that wins these days, not the technology and this has been the case with the Wintel platform. Who even knows whta the hell Amiga is today, that is outside the Amiga community?
On the other hand the sheer power isn't everything - looka at Apple. Despite the processor's overestimated performance Photoshop and Quark XPress are more efficient on Apple than on a PC, more stable and reliable.
Amiga ghas to be made available to general public for a competitive/affordable price, and yes, it has been said here, with a decent SW bundle. I'm dying to swap my crappy PC for an Amiga, but I need some kind of an office package (how about: AmigaWorks - bundled, AmigaOffice - paid upgrade?) that can be localised (Unicode?) and will handle the standard data formats of today. Porting Mozilla shouldn't be that hard, and that already has everything I need... A bunch of bundled games would help the marketing too. And yes, an equivalent to Photoshop would be nice, thanks god PageStream is still around.
But - someone (Amiga Inc.) has to tell the ####in world - SO THE WORLD MAY KNOW and go and buy it - otherwise it will remain an expensive niche product forever or die after all anyhow...
DeMenthor
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@warpiper
You are 100 per cent correct in your view of the current market. I'm glad you will be coming to the meeting and seeing the demos. You can judge for yourself, its unfair because there is no OS4 for A1 and wont be for a few months... You Will be able to see MorphOS and test it for yourself. I think it will feel like an Amiga os" to you and should be blown away by the speed. Linux will be running on the A1 with UAE running WB 3.1 which is fun. I will also be demonstrating Mac On Linux with Mac OS 9.1 running on the Pegasos (Try doing that on a PC mb)
That is the advantage of PPC over x86.
Being an A+ tech and working on pcs and macs as well as Amigas, I can tell you that I will avoid having a pc if at all possible. The architecture is dogshit.. luckily chip technology is at a space-age height so the old 1970s x86 bullshit works at a reasonable speed... God forbid its your first computer - then you have to deal with Spyware, M$ antics, IE, Outlook, registering for everything.. etc.. Oh, and better have a DSL connection or better to internet so you can download upgrades/and or /patches so your machine can run...
Wait, something is wrong with your pc? What? Your warranty is up.. well go ahead and give us a call at Dell/Gateway/Compaq/whoever else selling that crap... sure we'll be glad to help for $200 or $25 to just get our tech support operator! What? you only paid $600 for your PC. welll mR. X you may as well buy another one.. and so on.
magnetic
:-o
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@Psy, Alkemyst
You can't copyright words at all. You can have them as trademarks, on the other hand..
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@ Magnetic
I agree with you an the architecture, but hay, what am I gonna do, we need these over size puke buckets to get get buy in todays corperate world.
I really look forward to seeing the AmigaOne and the Pegasus, I am also really interested in Morph OS, I would like to see what it looks and feels like.
to me if it looks like an Amiga, feels like and Amiga, acts like and Amiga, then its an Amiga.
remember IBM's answer to windows, OS2 and OS2 warp, it still looked and acted and felt like windows PC, but did we rename it to EYE BEE EMM, no.
well, I am just ranting right now, probably making no sense at all so, I will see you at qaug, later man.
sorry for any bad spelling here, but I am rushing.
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I wonder how much room Eyetech have for pricing though. You've got to figure in two licenses (three if you include the AmigaOne license) plus the cost for them to have someone make both the Teron and the Articia.
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Madgun68 wrote:
I wonder how much room Eyetech have for pricing though. You've got to figure in two licenses (three if you include the AmigaOne license) plus the cost for them to have someone make both the Teron and the Articia.
They also have got to cater for the hundreds & hundreds of free copies of OS4 going to the early bird purchasers.
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Hi All...magnetic brings up some interesting points that we covered in an earlier ANN post that we would like to modify a bit and post again here.
BTW, magnetic you did a GREAT job with THIS! (http://www.magneticsystemsnyc.com/BeginRevGrphc.html) :-D
Title: Big Marketing Battles Ahead
The Pegasos II will be the ONLY alternate hardware platform of its price and performance on the market. The hard part will not be the whether or not it is a great product...IT WILL BE! The challenge will be overcoming the market convention for many things.
Challenge #1 (the old favorite): CPU speed
Comparing the rated speed of two processors in MHz is virtually useless unless the processors are exactly of the same architecture. Even processors within the same family cannot be directly compared (Pentium I vs. II, III vs. IV, G3 vs. G4, etc.). For example, the enhancements made to the Pentium II gave it far better performance characteristics than the Pentium. The difference in MHz alone could not account for the improvement. The increase was due more to a number of architectural changes, including cache sizes and algorithms, pipeline organization, memory access, etc. If you cannot compare the MHz "rating" of CPUs from the same family (hint: Altivec) as it compares to the relative speed of the entire computer, you really cannot compare the clock speeds across two distinct families (IntelWhatever and PPC). The clock speeds of CPUs reminds us of the marketing hype that goes into selling vacuum cleaners or blow dryers -- which machine has more amps? Anyway, back to computers...what "sucks" or "blows" more!? We will need to overcome the primary propaganda PC-oriented marketing obstacle.
Editor Note: Here enters our catchy new PegPower marketing phrase inspired by Don Cox...
WATTS HAPPENING! :-P
Power is the rate at which work is done, expressed as the amount of work per unit time and commonly measured in units such as the *watts* and horsepower (flying horses that is! Pegasos Power!). Power (to do things) is the key... PegPower!
We need to get people thinking about what they can do and not the speed at which computer runs to do it. :-) Magnetic has made a start at this in the review HERE! (http://www.magneticsystemsnyc.com/Benchmarks.html)
Challenge #2
It is NOT about MorphOS or AmigaOS. It is about Microsoft vs. OpenSource. This is about Linux folks. :-o The City of Munich recently decided to move its 14,000 desktops to Linux. SuSE confirmed that this meant it would be using SuSE Linux Desktop. Congratuations to SuSE. They are breaking down the "wall" for us. We have not moved up to bug-on-the-windshield status yet. First, we have to get them to try something new in the Pegasos hardware. THEN, we have to eliminate vendor lock and get people to partition their hard drive with more than a LinuxPPC distro (or they could have a few hard drives), only then might we get the chance to stand in for a few dances. Remember, we are trying to get more people here!
(Remember, the Trojan Horse...follow the link to there and catch the whole story :-D ! ) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1566)
We need to send a friendly Trojan Horse to the Linux Community too!
Challenge #3
Applications! We have to have a lot of them. If you want to create a *Community* you have to be part of it! It won't be just Genesi spending time and money to move things ahead -- and THANKFULLY WE ARE NOT ALONE. Have you noticed there are a few others getting involved...:-) Visit MorphOS-News (http://www.morphos-news.de). Scroll through the last few weeks. Things are moving. Nevertheless, we have MUCH MUCH MORE to do. We REALLY appreciate all the help, but remember the bug analogue...(we have to get those wings moving!)
This is partly the reason we are moving into the DemoScene...check this thread out if you missed it! (http://www.ann.lu/detail.cgi?category=news&file=1055444305.msg)
What can we say when confronted by our GHz-pumping-steroid PC friends...
Spitball #1
Hey Friend, are you homogenized? Got Pegasos? And while you are at it, please ask yourself the *ethical* MicroSoft question. There is NO spyware or Gestapo installation tactics here. We won't ask you endless privacy questions. By the way, have you actually sat down and read a EULA lately? (forget MacOS for now...) Read through the one for XP Home today. It actually prohibits you from connecting to your XP HOME PC via your network for anything other than file or print services. Technically, that seems to mean you cannot install something like Apache and run a small website from your own house. It also probably means you cannot install Oracle on your PC for learning purposes, because then you would be accessing a database service, which the EULA doesn't appear to allow. Is it just a good thing that Microsoft does not yet have the technical means in place to enforce such draconian terms, but it sure does seem like they intend to head down that path...(if we let them...;-) ). In the meanwhile, the Pegasos offers FREEDOM to use the OS and applications you want! See PegasosPPC.com (http://www.pegasosppc.com) for details...;-)
Spitball #2
Why Choose A Pegasos? Why The Dell Not!
Get them to ask themselves if they want to support boring clone outfits that benefit from pumping out the cheapest boxes with the least innovation, or if they want to go with a Company that - for all its faults - is ready to innovate like crazy! Dell are parasites making commodity products. They do not advance the state of the art of the industry. They just make it a bit cheaper and you get what you pay for (and pay for, and pay for...).
Spitball #3
What is the lifespan of the product? An Apple investment has a practical lifespan of two-to-four times as long as the PC alternative. Anyone want to address the resiliency of this Community...;-) Then, you can address the CPU card, the upgrade path, scalabilty, the vibrant cool folks in the Community, etc. :-D
The VALUE meter has to pull to the right, even against a lower entry-level cost of a PC-clone.
People are forever waiting for that new, faster CPU to come out. They end up waiting forever when they could get on with it and be using a NEW KIND OF COMPUTER tomorrow (...or at least in September!). What is in front of them then has to be compelling for them to make this decision!!!
We will need alot of help to be successful and appreciate all the effort being made. PegPower!
Best regards,
Raquel and Bill :-)
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by mdwh2 on 2003/6/14 2:37:34
@Psy, Alkemyst
You can't copyright words at all. You can have them as trademarks, on the other hand..
Yes your right & thats what i ment.
Psy was claiming that amiga.inc can not copyright Amiga wich is true but that not what amiga.inc or any amiga firm before have done.
So there was confusion on my part.
I think what Psy may of been saying is that amiga.inc can not use amiga as a trademark because its a word wich has already got a meaning, in wich case he is wrong.
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I'll admit it, currently I can't afford a motherboard from Eyetech, just costs more spending cash than I have, but I still think they have their reasons for pricing the board as they did... zyco spech clones anyone? =D
The Zydeco One. Comes free with bundled Zydeco Music...
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Hey jeffimix, join Phoenix and get a Pegasos I for 299 Euros! We have four Resellers with a few left. Upgrade to the G4 for 200 Euros next month.
Contact greenboy@phinixi.com or check out the associated ANN thread...
Cheers!
R&B :-)
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it just looks better every time...
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P.S. Pro Statio Audio will be free to all Pegasos I owners...:-D You can read about it HERE! (http://www.audiolabs.it/genesiFAQ.html)
We will also be announcing the SuperBundle soon! It will certainly include a few more suprises...;-)
Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill :-)
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NicoPPC wrote:
Well, you don't really an AGP*16 but indeed some AGP stuuf would be nice
The A1 has "some AGP stuuf", but why choose the ACCELERATED Graphics Port standard if you cannot utilise the maximum acceleration available?
Well, indeed MorphOS in not an Amiga. the Amiga is a computer, MorphOS is an OS...
The Amiga is a finely blended mix of hardware, OS and software. So there ;-)
MorphOS is an OS only available for the Pegasos if you want the latest version, AOS 4 will be available for classic systems as well as the A1 but is unlikely to appear for the Pegasos.
Could you please explain why MorphOS is not close to the AmigaOS ?
Morphos IS close, but thats close as in "close but no cigar". Hell, Windows and UAE is close, lets forget about new technology and use that ;-)
We don't really need a killing gfx card, because all the AGP card should work on current hardware (I mean LinuxOne AND Pegasos). What we need is a good OS (MorphOS in my point of view), with drivers and many software (game, office stuff, broswer ...)
The original A1000 was designed to have a "killing gfx card", the result was that people sat up and took notice. Why bother to wait more than 2 years for a new hardware platform that only makes people yawn.
Whether you or I like it or not, the general public have been told that when looking at computer specifications, bigger numbers are better. This is the mindset of any new user. They simply will not grasp the fact that a leaner OS requires less clock cycles and less RAM.
At the end of the day this machine has to make Eyetech a nice profit or it will be the last they make. With an ever decreasing community, stiff competiton and all the other hurdles they face they will need to resort to every trick in the book to attract new customers. Don't think for a second that we will get to OS5 on the strength of the current market.
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pioneer wrote:
To Amiga_boy:
People like you are the delight of hardware manufacturers. You have to have the latest hardware, even though it doesn't make a bit of difference to what you're doing (games). Frankly I'm tired of the hardware snobs who are deluded enough to think they have the latest hardware (since something new comes out every day).
I seriously doubt I delighted any hardware manufacturers in the last year as I am unemployed and cannot even afford to buy 10 blank CDs, never mind a new machine.
When I have bought hardware I always bought the best available, that way I could be as certain as possible that my investment would give me the maximum return for my money.
Frankly, I'M TIRED OF IDIOTS WHO POST BOLLOCKS BECAUSE THEY CANNOT COUNTER WITH A REAL ARGUMENT.
I suggest you check this out:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=65707&dict=CALD
Snob? That's your opinion, but I'd rather be a snob than a moron.