Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: bubba on March 19, 2007, 02:18:54 PM
-
I'm in the midst of planning my A1200 tower project. I'd like to get a Mediator PCI board, but don't want to buy it now if the Dragon might be released soon.
I don't really need the Coldfire CPU yet. I'd be happy to by the Dragon board just to get the AGP slot and purchase a Shark or Coldfire board when they are ready.
Also, I wonder how much support there will be in OS 3.9 for the shark? Will it work just like the current PPC boards out there? Is it just for running OS 4.0? Will Elbox ever release it?
thanks,
bubba
-
E.T.A.: (http://www.fiu.edu/~morriss/backgrounds/infinite.gif)
-
Go for the Mediator. The Dragon won't be released.
-
SharkPPC has been ready for years (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/crescendo_7200.html).
Also, I wonder how much support there will be in OS 3.9 for the shark?
None.
Will it work just like the current PPC boards out there?
No.
Is it just for running OS 4.0?
Only Elbox claims it will run OS4. Hyperion deny it.
Will Elbox ever release it?
Cresendo released this card years ago. See above.
Dragon? Well it has only been delayed for couple years so far. Considering the faith people have in Shark, give it 3-4 years more.
-
You can't use the DRAGON Board without ColdFire CPU. You can't add a normal accelerator card to the a1200 cpu slot.
And for the rest - "When its done."
-
there isnt any point in getting anything before aos4.0 will be released, if your thinking of beefing up your amiga.........
for now you can just settle with this if you dont have it allready, get this stuff...
1. a blizzard1230 with 8-16mb ram
2. a 2.5" 1-4gb hd or a 1-4gb flashcard ide and use that as a hd
3. a scart cabel for best picture quality
4. Amiga Forever pack for connecting your pc to amiga for transfer!
5. download all whdload games from p2p emule/torrent....
6. a good joystick/mouse
thats pretty much all you need, for now...
________
Zoloft Lawsuit Settlements (http://www.classactionsettlements.org/lawsuit/zoloft/)
-
Considering how much money they MUST have spent on this given the photo's of the prototype I find it difficult to believe that IF it had worked they would not have released it even for a small "pay up front" production run.
It must have been too incompatible to be of any use.
-
Dragon is a dead end technology. It has codfire cpu which had been a good solution in the mid/late '90, when the os is not ported to ppc. (AFAIK coldfire is not ppc it's similar to 68k) But now when os4 is out(?), it is for nothing.
-
You would think that with the final 4.0 release being out that they would concentrate more on the shark and/or other PPC unit.
I STILL would like to get my hands on a coldfire board to run 3.9 When i wanted and then a shark to run 4.0. Granted, I guess, if I really wanted to run 3.9, it would run on the 020 in the A1200. But... still.
I REALLY would like to get my hands on a g4 or g5 shark and stick it in my A4000 with the mediator 4000Di. I'm kinda surprised elbox hasn't released that option yet. You would think they must be in need of the $$$.
-
I wonder when Elbox will update their website concerning "SharkPPC":
Availability: Q1 2007*
(*) Production of SharkPPC cards will start as soon as the final version of AmigaOS4.0 for A1 is released.
The only question is if the "final update" (released Xmas 2006) counts as as "OS4 final version"?
Of course, also licensing does not matter to Elbox. :lol:
-
These boards take $$$ to produce and market. Have Elbox got the $$$ to do that? Dont Polish companies have to publish accounts?
-
I REALLY would like to get my hands on a g4 or g5 shark and stick it in my A4000 with the mediator 4000Di. I'm kinda surprised elbox hasn't released that option yet.
Which part of the "SharkPPC is rebadged crescendo (http://www.sonnettech.com/product/crescendo_7200.html) card" didn't you get?
Compare Elbox SharkPPC (http://www.elbox.com/photo/amiga2001/amiga2001_06.jpg) and Crescendo 7200 (http://www.sonnettech.com/imgs/imgs_prods/prodshots/c7200.jpg).
No, there is no G4 model.
-
Would the Crescendo card actually work in a Mediator 4000?
--
moto
-
Define "work"?
-
Come on, you know what I mean: function as a processor upgrade.
--
moto
-
No.
PowerUP: no support
WarpUP: no support
MorphOS: no support
OS4: no support
Yet Elbox claims that OS4 would run on this card unaltered.
Go figure...
-
So what is the point of saying that the Shark is a re-badged Crescendo card? Sure, if it would actually be possible to buy the Crescendo card and use it in a Mediator 4000 then I could see your point. But we still have to wait for the Shark package to use the card with an Amiga. So I just don't see your point.
--
moto
-
So what is the point of saying that the Shark is a re-badged Crescendo card?
Because it is.
SharkPPC has never been seen run anything "Amiga". There is a reason for this: It is the Crescendo card with modified heatsink (which says SharkPPC & elbox).
Sure, if it would actually be possible to buy the Crescendo card and use it in a Mediator 4000 then I could see your point.
Ah you mean as possible as to buy regular NEC USB 2.0 card and use it instead of SpiderUSB 2.0 card?
But we still have to wait for the Shark package to use the card with an Amiga.
SharkPPC is this Crescendo card. But I am sure Elbox would do anything in their power to stop people from bying the card from Crescendo or Ebay (probably the same tricks as used with SpiderUSB).
(That assuming this Shark thing would be real in the first place)
-
AFAIK the SharkPPC can't work in any current Mediator boards because of missing power lines.
-
Maybe someone from Poland have some fresh news about Dragon?
Artur where are you!?
-
The only question is if the "final update" (released Xmas 2006) counts as as "OS4 final version"?
Of course, also licensing does not matter to Elbox.
Should it theoretically matter? PPC addons for the classic a1200 should not need a license from AmigaINC afaik according to the orginal licensing terms.
-
In the elbox site there is a complet photoshot "album" and some movie about the amizudski (I love polish, but I'm not speak polish) Show. As you see in the picture dragon demoed. I think if it is really runing os3.9 and other amiga stuffs (spaceball demo as seen in one of the pics) some amiga mag already write it. (Amiga future etc.) Or am i missed something?
-
derringer3 wrote:
Dragon is a dead end technology. It has codfire cpu which had been a good solution in the mid/late '90, when the os is not ported to ppc. (AFAIK coldfire is not ppc it's similar to 68k) But now when os4 is out(?), it is for nothing.
Most apps still are 68k, OS 3.9 is too and i haven't seen AMIGA OS 4.0 on shelves yet. If the Dragon runs 68k software good (even if it's run under the CF68k lib) it's ok for me... if you need improvements for 3.9 look for AfA OS.
-
You are not missing anything... but they also released benchmarks which put it below a 50MHz 68060 when running code which has lots of emulated instructions.
-
@donar: I still using os3.9, and i love it, but in my amiga there is a powerful cpu wich most of the time is sleeping or if it used it has got some "content switching orgy with 68k cpu".
So other aspect: Mac OS goes powerpc in the mid '90, amiga planned do the same about '97. (Afaik commodore want the same maybe hp, dec alpha or powerpc but want the same)It delayed and delayed and now os4 is out but now the time is 2007 not 1997 or something similar. So there is a good os4 only one little step from my amiga. (Someone just relase it please) So why on earth buy a coldfire which is unusable with os 4?
-
alexh wrote:
You are not missing anything... but they also released benchmarks which put it below a 50MHz 68060 when running code which has lots of emulated instructions.
Could you please point me to the Benchmarks, as i couldn't find them anywhere? The Atari guys have their TOS running on a Coldfire developer Board Klick Me (http://perso.orange.fr/didierm/ct60/ctpci-e.htm) in the lower half you see that "Raw Power" is something equivalent to a CT60@100 MHz if i don't get it wrong... The Coldfire is a 25€ Part the 68060 a 300€ and has to be overclocked 100% to get at 100MHz. Sounds not too bad for me. Unfortunately i don't know how likely it is in real world terms that the Coldfire has: "To do lot's of emulated instructions".
derringer3 wrote:
@donar: I still using os3.9, and i love it, but in my amiga there is a powerful cpu wich most of the time is sleeping or if it used it has got some "content switching orgy with 68k cpu".?
Ok, so using only a "fast" coldfire gets rid of both problems easily. It will be used all the time, and by all Code, no context switches back and forth. Speed improvements through native software possible.
derringer3 wrote:
So there is a good os4 only one little step from my amiga. (Someone just relase it please) So why on earth buy a coldfire which is unusable with os 4?
Sorry i _somehow_ have a bad feeling that the step is not so little (Bad gut feeeling only, sorry no evidence). Old apps will stay 68k, so they have to be emulated. New Apps could be compiled for Coldfire like they could for PPC.
I really don't know about AInc, they (kind of) left the market (only selling Mobile games), stating that "some other company" uses their name to write an OS (AOS4.0) now coming back talking about OS5.0. :-?
Maybe it's better to take 3.9 improve it through AROS/AfA OS and maybe replace it at some time with it? Maybe this next morning AOS 4.0 gets released with fast inexpensive hardware and i'm totally wrong... I really don't know.
Bye
-
elbox claims that most of the unmodified 68k software runs at speed between 040 and 060
Dragon, lack of performance (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=25566)
-
I've had a very hard time trying to buy an 060 card. It's shocking to have to pay $400 for a 10 year old piece of hardware that could die at any moment.
I'm rooting for the dragon as it should future proof the 68k Amiga, especially if the Clone-A is viable. I'd happily spend the cash for a dragon with 040-060 performancem AGP, PCI, USB, etc. in one package versus buying an old 1260, mediator, Subway, etc.
I also expect the Elbox team will be able to optimize the emulation code. They must be having some serious issues. I hope it's related to writing drivers, not with the coldfire implementation.
Anyway, I'm probably going to buy a d-box and a mediator and cross my finger's that they give a good upgrade price when the Dragon is released.
-bubba
-
bubba wrote:
I've had a very hard time trying to buy an 060 card. It's shocking to have to pay $400 for a 10 year old piece of hardware that could die at any moment.
Try to find a complete AMIGA, rip out the 060 card, sell the rest. Also look in ebay for the complete text, not only the head line when doing a search. Sometimes people forget to mention the most precious parts in the head line. Bad for them, good for you. :-D
Bye
-
@Tomas
PPC addons for the classic a1200 should not need a license from AmigaINC afaik according to the orginal licensing terms.
Debatable. Might be interesting to hear the reasons why ACK Software Controls did not come through with the Powervixxen LT (for A1200) then. Licensing or simply technical difficulties? Adam also explicitly mentioned licensing on Moobunny and that it was not easy.
Further, the AmigOS-page of Amiga.com states:
AmigaOne Partners have the right to distribute AmigaOS 4.0 into the AmigaOne desktop computer market and into Cyberstorm PPC enabled devices. Distribution into any other market or device requires a licensing and distribution agreement with Amiga, Inc.
-
@ bubba: from this aspect you say something, but this price?
Any ppc card (sharkppc if ever will be relased too)is a stone age tool compared to any "modern" pc but it offer me and probably my a1200 some speed under os4. (and 3.9) I want speed in my amiga not a speed of '060 or worse. If the only thing they offered after many years of developing is a 060 card, then why not licensing blizzard '060 and sell it?
Anyway when dragon first appeared ddr 266Mhz and ati 9200/9700 etc was about ok technology, but now day by day these parts will be the parts of some computer museum.
-
If the only thing they offered after many years of developing is a 060 card, then why not licensing blizzard '060 and sell it?
You always get the same things to hear, if you ask this: Critical parts are no more available, or are available but not conform to ROHS and can not be used in new equipment and then sold in the EU. So you had to re design the whole thing....
Even if they get a 68060 for 150€ instead of 300€ the product will be 125€ more expensive to produce than say a Coldfire card...assuming all parts for the card cost the same except the processor.
Anyway when dragon first appeared ddr 266Mhz and ati 9200/9700 etc was about ok technology, but now day by day these parts will be the parts of some computer museum.
As all AMIGA Equipment is, including the AmigaOne. But you are right we can just not keep up with the computer industry in general. Even if we had PCIexpress and Radeon 1950XT we had no 3D Drivers for it. :-(
Bye
-
Everyone is crying for uptodate hardware but there is no software (except dnetc) who could benefit from it. If the emulation on the Dragon can give a minimum speed of 040/060 it would be a good start. You can't buy any new 040/060 cards since years. If you are happy with a 040/060 today you will also be happy with a Dragon. I am sure all others who needs more power already have a Pegasos/AOne or using WinUAE.
-
The only way I will buy a Dragon is if it is 100% backwards compatible with 68k software and runs at least at 060 speed. Otherwise it's a downgrade.
--
moto
-
I wrote and just got a reply from elbox regarding the Dragon. They claim "the programers are working daily to polish and finish drivers". There you have it. It kind of reminds me of the one midas commercials that has a bunch monkeys attacking a transmission with hammmers. ahhah... I do have to say though, I have many elbox products and they work as advertised. :rtfm:
-
I hope they bring out an A4000 version. I've just sold my A1200!
--
moto
-
Yeah, I also have alotof elbox stuff.. But the case for Dragon and shark..
So much talk, so little good information :(
-
They should have to update FAQ about Dragon.
-
Yeah, its not surpirising why everyone call it a hoax when they have so much wrong information and wrong deadlines..
Give us the facts!
-
About the compatibility I agree but I'm still running with a 68030 so would appreciate the speedup to 040 / 060 speeds :) plus I'd imagine that people might be willing to produce native or at least optimised Coldfire versions of software if the Dragon ever gets release.
As for buying things from Elbox, well opinions around here have always been really varied about them so I was really hoping for Oli_hd's Coldfire board to get finished.
Andy
motorollin wrote:
The only way I will buy a Dragon is if it is 100% backwards compatible with 68k software and runs at least at 060 speed. Otherwise it's a downgrade.
--
moto
-
As for buying things from Elbox, well opinions around here have always been really varied about them so I was really hoping for Oli_hd's Coldfire board to get finished.
I honestly don't believe that project to ever be completed. And even _if_ the hardware is finished, there is still a big software and compatibility problem.
-
humppa wrote:
As for buying things from Elbox, well opinions around here have always been really varied about them so I was really hoping for Oli_hd's Coldfire board to get finished.
I honestly don't believe that project to ever be completed. And even _if_ the hardware is finished, there is still a big software and compatibility problem.
details details details :-D
-
motorollin wrote:
The only way I will buy a Dragon is if it is 100% backwards compatible with 68k software and runs at least at 060 speed. Otherwise it's a downgrade.
--
moto
There's more to system performance than raw MIPs. One thing the Coldfire has going for it is a much faster memory interface.
Compatibility is the bigger problem. The coldfire doesn't just fail to implement some operations, it implements them differently to the 68K family. That's a headache for systems just trying to run 68K object code with the least amount of intervention.
Given that missing support includes fairly commonly used addressing modes (at least in amiga software), any kind of trap/emulate is going to be a major performance hinderance.
One way to solve 68K compatibility in the absence of a fast/compatible enough trap/emulate layer is probably to use a hotspot based JIT and just emulate all the 68K code all of the time. Transcription will be 1:1 for all the supported opcodes, the unsupported ones could be expanded in-line.
This might sound a bit odd (emulating the 68K) but the transcription layer itself would be pretty lightweight, a lot moreso than emulating a totally different class of CPU and therefore could be implemented pretty optimally.
-
I wrote and just got a reply from elbox regarding the Dragon. They claim "the programers are working daily to polish and finish drivers". There you have it.
Yeah and Amiga INC. said they are hard working on OS 5, so it just has to be released any time now.......
-
Lemmink wrote:
"the programers are working daily to polish and finish drivers". There you have it.
11 novembar and now is 21 march ...
Drivers are polished like ice if they are finished.
Elbox! Update please!