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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: DonP1 on March 14, 2007, 03:11:13 PM
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This is a funny question coming from someone who overclocks the hell out of PCs, but I'm wondering what you guys use the accellerated Amiga for?
Do games run correctly, or do you run into problems? I've seen a lot about compatibilty issues, so I was just wondering.
Thanks,
Don
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I would use it only for demos. From the demoscene, that is.
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Accelerators can cause problems for some older games, but most accelerators can be disabled by holding down a key when you power the Amiga on. Also, WHDLoad fixes most games so the work fine with any accelerator.
I use my 060 to make my tricked out Workbench nice and fast, and also for playing higher end games.
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moto
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Hmmm well Ok, I use an Apollo Turbo MkIII 030/40 Mhz
This is not the fastest out there, but I run programs with more speed, and the extra Fastram on board the accelerator helps a lot.
With just 2 meg of Chipram I can not run OS3.9 so with 32meg of Fastram on the accelerator I can.
Ok to be fair I dont need an accelerator to get Fastram but with the aid of an accelerator it does help a lot.
With an accelerator I make use of an Mediator 6 slot PCI board to make use of PCI cards.
So in short with no accelerator you can only do a certain amount of things, with an accelerator you can do much more.
Mike.
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I'd say that the most compatible Amiga is an A1200 with a Blizzard 1230 with some extra ram, and WHDLoad installed.
There's an awful lot of games you won't be able to play on a vanilla 500/1200 or whatever.
A cool thing about having an accelerator is that the WHDLoad patchers often tweak the games so they will take advantage of more powerful machines, giving the games a new lease of life. Or in the case of games like Red Baron which in my view was just too slow to be playable in the first place, they have actually brought it to life. :)
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Accelerators help with speeding up the rendering of 3D programs on the Amiga. I use Lightwave and it increases the rendering time by more than 20% and allows my scenes to be far more complicated. Also accelerators usually have on board memory (in my case 128mb) so using patches like FBlite will shift over some of the workbench graphics to fast ram rather then using chip.
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Ross1 wrote:
it increases the rendering time by more than 20%
?increases? hmmm... :-o
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DonP1 wrote:
This is a funny question coming from someone who overclocks the hell out of PCs, but I'm wondering what you guys use the accellerated Amiga for?
Do games run correctly, or do you run into problems? I've seen a lot about compatibilty issues, so I was just wondering.
Thanks,
Don
There might be some problems with early badly written games, but properly coded games do usually have no compatibility problems with accelerators.
And the reason for using one, is because it improves the speed significantly and is even required by more modern amiga games. A program called whdload fixes most compatibility problems in older games.
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If you want to do stuff other than mess about with games you'll need an accelerator. I used my 060 Amiga 4000 for web browsing and some 3d rendering and for both of these things you need an accelerator (and of course, more RAM). I would say, if you want to do anything other than play small older games you need to whack it at least more memory and a hard drive but your Amiga is going to feel a LOT more modern and responsive with a decent processor in there.
By the way, surely 20% is a bit of an underestimate even if you say "decreases rendering time".
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@Angus
Or in the case of games like Red Baron which in my view was just too slow to be playable in the first place, they have actually brought it to life. :)
Absolutely! I'm especially looking forward to a whdload version of Wing commander! :-)
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@DonP1
How about to Speed up the Operating System?
In my opinion and observations........AmigaOS/Workbench is still one of the Zippiest and Smoothest OS's out there. I have a Dell Pentium 4 and three G4 Macs with OSX and I still love Workench a whole lot better. Also Got Ubuntu Linux (Darn Good!)
Runs lovely with an accelerator.
Also I use it For SCALA MM300 (Amiga's PowerPoint) to do presentations on Video and run the Animations smoothly as well as run Larger animations.
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Just an example:
Do you try run Genetic Species with a plain 4000?
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I guess it all depends on what you plan to do with the machine. If it's for nostalgia, circa 1991, then by all means leave it stock. Pretty much all the games on Amiga, except a few of the later titles, were designed to run on a stock machine.
I have had a LOT of compatibility problems with my DKB Cobra and older games. Unfortunately for me, the Cobra is about as easy to put in the Amiga as trying to push a thumbtack in your eyeball. At first I had removed all the casing from the amiga so I could rip out the Cobra easily, but that ain't good for the machine, and constantly removing the board wasn't exactly good for the connector either. Without the accelerator though, I have almost no compatibility problems. Some of the compatibility problems can be solved via the early boot menu, or with the use of tools like Degrader.
*BUT*, without my accelerator (and the 32mb of ram with it) using the workbench is...something else. You have to keep it as feature-less as possible to preserve RAM and performance and that ain't fun at all if you plan on using the amiga for more than games.
If you can afford it, get a 1200 and accelerate it so you can enjoy the latter part of the Amiga software history. Then get an A500+ or an A600 (most of them are dirt cheap now) and keep it away from compatibility-impairing hardware such as accelerators. HD's and RAM expansions are nothing to worry about. Personnally I'd go for the A600 if you're a little short on cash as the 500's HDs are getting rarer, and more expensive whereas you can just shove (almost) any 2.5" IDE drive in a 600 assuming it has KS2.05 (prior versions did not have support for HD or PCMCIA).
But don't expect PC-like tweaking. On a PC you can get anywhere from 10% to 500% speed increases with only a couple of BIOS settings and a cooling system. It's quite the opposite on the Amiga...Don't forget that while you can accelerate the processing power of the machine, most of the hardware inside remains that old 198x/199x technology.
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@Akiko
I'm especially looking forward to a whdload version of Wing commander!
There are already patches for the CD32 version of Wing Commander (better graphics).
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Due to my lack of understanding of computers I'd like to understand the acceleration thing a little more .
How is it done ?
Apart from the extra heat are there any other negative aspects ? Can hardware/software wear out quicker ?
How much can you accelerate it by ?
Are there any programs that require an accelerator to work vs not having one and waiting for the program to load a bit slower (Im hoping I understand the basics of the accelerator to ask this question )
:-D
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There are many types of accelerator. Although today the term is mostly used only for CPUs, there was a time when video cards were called graphic accelerators :) There are two ways to accelerate something, brute force and clever tinkering.
Brute force is just putting more Mhz somewhere. A 14mhz CPU is capable of processing data twice as fast as a 7mhz CPU. But even then, it's not that simple... You still have to take into account how large a 'chunk' of data the CPU can handle at a time. A good analogy would be coke bottles. Let's say the amount of liquid it can hold is the MHZ. A 2 litre bottle would be twice as fast as a 1 litre bottle right? If you were to turn them upside down an empty their contents into indentical receptacles, the one under the 2 litre bottle should fill twice as fast no? Well no, because on both bottles, the opening is the same size, so there's only so much liquid that can pass through at the same time. So they would empty themselves at the exact same speed. But INSIDE the bottle... there is a lot more liquid!
Same analogy again.. but with identical bottles. One with a 1" opening, one with a 2" opening. Even though they hold the same amout of liquid (read: same amount of Mhz) one will definately empty much faster than the other because it can have a lot more liquid go through its opening. This is called the bus size.
The other type of accelration, clever tinkering does not rely as much on raw speed rather than on ways of doing things. One example of such a thing is fixed point mathematics which was once hugely popular as floating point units used to cost an arm and a leg. Think of the CPU as a human being. It's much simpler for you to calculate 2000 + 2000 than 2000 X 2000. It is the same with computers, the simpler the operation, the faster it will get done. When dealing with fractions (floating point maths) like 1.111 + 1.111 you need a floating point unit to do it in hardware, or you need to do it in software (read: slow). However.. clever thinking leads to fixed point. In fixed point maths, you simply assume the decimal point is always at the same place. So our previous operation could be simplified to 1111 + 1111 and when the CPU returns 2222, you place an imaginary decimal point at 2.222 and there you go... fast floating point operations. This is an overly simplified example as there are other thing to take into account here, such as the fact that your integers can only hold smaller numbers since you dedicate a part of it as being after the decimal... then again this can be circumvented by yet more creative thinking...and that is why computers are so complex :)
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Don, I accelerated my 2000 and also put in a NIC and VGA video card. This made my 2000 usable for most home tasks (word processing, email, etc..) You don't need to have the latest and greatest for most things. Keep in mind, in high school I used a C64 and SpeedScript.. so I know an Amiga is viable.
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To make all software run faster.
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@Don:
.. for fun!
:-D
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I think I fall into that category of "stuck in 1991" :lol:
My A1000 is very nice. I've installed the Rejuvinator, it's got a 2MB Agnus, Super Denise, Kickstart 2.05 or 3.1 onboard, or 1.3 through a floppy, and an extra 1.5MB inside. Outside I have a Dataflyer with a 540MB drive and 1.3, 2.04, and 3.1 each bootable in a different partition.
I have sitting unused a CSA Derringer 50 with 32MB ram, but I'm not sure if I should use it or not. I tried once, but I think I ran into compatibility issues with games, so I went back to the 68020 (no speed increase really). This was 10 years ago, and I didn't know much about Amigas, so I might not have installed the 68030 libraries at the time, or known of WHDload.
I think I might give the Derringer one more try, but my only use of the Amiga is mainly Deluxe Galaga, so I'm just not sure if it's worth it because the system works great as-is.
For any high-powered computing task and all day-to-day stuff I would use my dually PCs. If the Amiga was my only computer, I could see that it would be a great idea to upgrade it.
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just don't accelerate it 9,81m/s^2 as some jerk suggested.. :roll:
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In response to the original poster, I'd just say... why not?
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Karlos wrote:
In response to the original poster, I'd just say... why not?
Because I could sell the CSA Derringer 50 for $$$ if it isn't going to do me any good. If I'm not doing anything that requires a faster CPU (and I haven't .... yet) I should probably just sell it.
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True but you generally never fail to find a use for a faster CPU. None of my systems are running on anything under a 68040. Occasionally I have used a bare 020 based A1200 with fast ram only for compatibility testing. As soon as the testing is over, in goes an 040 card :lol:
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OP: Why accelerate an Amiga?
Because you CAN!
*SCNR*
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@Don:
Are you FastRob from A1k?
If not ... I know 2 other people in the world with rejuvenator-boards.
:-D
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Akiko wrote:
Absolutely! I'm especially looking forward to a whdload version of Wing commander! :-)
You know about the existing patch for the CD32 version? And as you probably know the CD32 version is the version to have.
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It's a silly question. Why would you accelerate any computer? To make it faster. So that applications, emulators etc. run faster and more smoothly.
It's like saying "Why accelerate an IBM-PC" or "Why accelerate a Macintosh".
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I actually use a modded xbox with the homebrew uae. The results are pretty good and I run every emulator out there.
Emulation has become a reality for me. It became too expensive to store all the amiga bits I had.
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Ratte wrote:
@Don:
Are you FastRob from A1k?
If not ... I know 2 other people in the world with rejuvenator-boards.
:-D
Sorry, not me.
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Minuous wrote:
It's a silly question. Why would you accelerate any computer? To make it faster. So that applications, emulators etc. run faster and more smoothly.
It's like saying "Why accelerate an IBM-PC" or "Why accelerate a Macintosh".
Ok, here is a less silly question. "Why accelerate an Amiga if you aren't running any software that will take advantage of it, and you could use the money for something else?"
My question was directed to what people are using the accelleration for, and to determine if I will ever need it. I don't render, I don't compile, it seems stupid to run a degrader just to get games to be compatible. I wanted to determine if there is any justification for speeding up my Amiga, and for what I do with it, I don't think so.
It's not like trying to run Oblivion on a PC, where I need to splurge for a $250 video card and need a 3Ghz processor. As I said in a pervious post, I'm running stuff from the 1990's, like Deluxe Galaga.
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>Ok, here is a less silly question. "Why accelerate an Amiga if you aren't running any software that will take advantage of it, and you could use the money for something else?"
Well, you've basically answered your own question then. If you are just running ancient games on it then it is indeed rather pointless. I would have expected 3D games like Interceptor to become smoother when used on an accelerator but that doesn't seem to be the case (poorly coded?).
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As I said in a pervious post, I'm running stuff from the 1990's, like Deluxe Galaga.
Hmm, Deluxe Galaga runs a lot smoother on an '030 or '040... ;-)
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Actually I've noticed that many of the WHDLoad games don't seem to slow down properly, they have to be run at A500 speed. Bomb Jack and Vixen spring immediately to mind. I will make a list if anyone is interested.
I might also go through the 3D games to try to find any that are actually smoother, as opposed to just faster, on an accelerator.
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dear Friend:
If you don't need the extra speed, that is required for ex. for 3d rendering, then you don't need an accelerator. And the money you save..you could put to better use.
cheers!!!
rednova
-mobilis in mobili-
www.feryogi.com
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Akiko wrote:
@Angus
Or in the case of games like Red Baron which in my view was just too slow to be playable in the first place, they have actually brought it to life. :)
Absolutely! I'm especially looking forward to a whdload version of Wing commander! :-)
Check out the just released patch of Cybercon III, it flies now that Bert has managed to get it all working in fast memory. and it also had the problems fixed. The combat feels much more like a 3D FPS than when I used to play the game. More fun than ever before.
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Why do people put protoxide to boost their car?
Bcoz they fly,bcoz it's fun,bcoz it's passion!
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Daniele wrote:
Why do people put protoxide to boost their car?
Bcoz they fly,bcoz it's fun,bcoz it's passion!
WRONG! They do it because it makes the car faster which does something useful (get from point a to point b faster or lightens the wallet from speeding tickets).
If I speed up my Amiga and I have to "unspeed" it everytime I want to play a game, that seems like a waste of $$$$.
I already have the Accelerator (a CSA Derringer 50 w/ 32MB RAM), I'm just trying to decide if it will be of any use to me.
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It's very much a case of deminishing returns with the Amiga, the more you upgrade, the less compatible with the majority of (A500-games) software you become.
Why put an FPU in an Amiga, is another "funny" question?
:-P
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coldfish wrote:
It's very much a case of deminishing returns with the Amiga, the more you upgrade, the less compatible with the majority of (A500-games) software you become.
Why put an FPU in an Amiga, is another "funny" question?
:-P
Exactly.
I'm just trying to figure out if there is any software that I might want to use someday that could take advantage of the accelerator.
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>If I speed up my Amiga and I have to "unspeed" it everytime I want to play a game, that seems like a waste of $$$$.
Yeah, it's funny how the WHDLoad patches say "this slave has been tested with an 060" etc...didn't they notice the game was running at 10x normal speed?
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What game are you experiencing this with ? Whdload is really cool, I use it for years (on 060/040)..
It really is cool software, making it compatible, and quittable (very important).
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Many of them. Bomb Jack and Vixen spring to mind, but there are others too. Maybe I'm using old slaves or something.
I agree WHDLoad is great overall, I even registered it...
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I have a 40mhz A1200 with 32mb fastmram.
Looking for an accelerator to be able to work on sequences of animation in higher resolution, but I don't find anything available for the non tower models.
Any suggestions for upgrading the 1200 to operate in higher resolutions?...
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not all of us play games. I do 3d and video work with my amigas. I need at least a 060 cpu otherwise the thing is just flat out to slow.
nothing wrogn with a standard amiga for gaming.
in the ned it's exactly the same reason you want to speed you your PeeCee, with computers faster is usualy better.
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krize wrote:
What game are you experiencing this with ? Whdload is really cool, I use it for years (on 060/040)..
It really is cool software, making it compatible, and quittable (very important).
I bought the CSA Derringer 50 in 1997. I plugged it into the A1000, Deluxe Galaga had issues (the main reason for having the Amiga), and so I pulled it out.
I didn't know of Whdload at the time. I don't even know if I copied the 68030 libraries into the proper place (I'm not the most knowledgable Amigan, maybe 3 months of serious use on the thing). I'd have to give the Derringer another try with this Whdload software.
Why do they call it Whdload BTW, and where can I find out more about this?
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guru-666 wrote:
not all of us play games. I do 3d and video work with my amigas. I need at least a 060 cpu otherwise the thing is just flat out to slow.
nothing wrogn with a standard amiga for gaming.
in the ned it's exactly the same reason you want to speed you your PeeCee, with computers faster is usualy better.
Those are very good reasons to speed up an Amiga.
But I'm more of a PeeCee guy, my #1 machine is a dual Xeon 2.8Ghz system with 15K SCSI drives. And even this system is too slow because I have an ancient ATI 8500 video card. I need to spend $250 to get a high end x1950 just to play current games. I'm pretty sure I could buy an A1200 for the price of a PeeCee video card.