Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: PhatBoiCollier on June 11, 2003, 11:29:24 AM
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Thats it, I've had enough!
My full time occupation is developing application software for Windows. I also have an evening/weekend job, developing application software for Windows. As you can gather, I spend most my life in Windows. Task management, emails etc via Outlook, documentation in word etc. and to be frank, they all suck.
I am so fed up of the Stupidity of this software. As a developer, I KNOW whats involved. I've written flight managements systems, holiday booking systems, stock control, chemical classification systems so I am experienced. The fundamental floor is the software has been added to and added to. The PROBLEMS are hardly addressed.
Sure, the latest version of Word can have text with sparkly lights but does it know where to put a page-break? No. Does it know how to count? (numbered lists) No. Style management. Yeah, right. Ok, now outlook comes with MSN messanger integration and loads of other bells and whistles but can you create a task and keep someone else informed of progress? No. And windows? Jesus, dont get me started on that, what the hell is it doing when it boots?
And why the hell do I have to re-install it every 6-12 months just to keep it running? There are bits of programs installing themselves in the startup drawer (ok, thats easy to fix) and all over the place in the registry (load, run, runonce...)
My point? Well, after the all the discussions of which is best, MOS, AROS, OS4 etc. I dusted off my A4000 from the attic and booted it... 8 seconds. I had forgotton how damned quick it was. And my 500MB (Yes, MB, not GB) drive? Full os, 1 ray tracer, 2 word processors, organizer and a number of games. Not even half full!
Now, I know through my work that at the moment, people are realising that, besides the hype, Windows XP (although better than its predecessors) is still, big, slow and impossible to admin (with regards what gets run/loaded/drivers etc). And everyone is getting fed up with it.
So, if we are going to launch a new OS then for gods sake ALL OF YOU, grow up, pool resources and get on with it.
Now, is the time.
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A bit long winded, but yeah, I agree with you.
An open standard should have been decided... too late for that now... So we will just have to let the community vote with its feet... so to speak...
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Hoorah PhatBoi!
Wholeheartedly agree with every single comment you make.
Regards,
Ben de Waal
(who still uses phatedit for quick code mods while debugging :-))
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PhatEdit?! Blimey. Been a while since I wrote that. Good to know its still out there. Lost the motivation recently.
I have a full-screen version of Quake done now. I started putting the sound in there too but like I said, I lost interest.
Half thought about doing a Workbench-esque app for the DE though....
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Also I agree. :)
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bloodline wrote:
A bit long winded, but yeah, I agree with you.
An open standard should have been decided... too late for that now... So we will just have to let the community vote with its feet... so to speak...
There is a way......
If WE as a COMMUNITY regardless of affiliations, come up with a set of standards for developers to stick to, that work on AOS4/MOS/AROS and WE as DEVELOPERS stick to it, thus maximizing our potential customer base, then eventually the OS vendors will have to admit defeat and start co-operating or at least stick to the open standards that developers are sticking to.
http://openamiga.org anyone? :-D
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I agree, but saying it forums over and over just doesn't make the people behind all the different "amiga successor" projects pool together, and they never will.
People will stay in camps, the bitching will continue. Maybe once everyone has non-beta projects out there the atmosphere will change from hostility to relief.
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The nearest thing to a standard we have is the 3.1 spec... + CGX + AHI + BSDSocket
That is the only thing we can "rely" on being present.
hopefully, some common ground can be found there.
-Edit- Damn, Almost forgot SDL :-D
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Tickly wrote:
I agree, but saying it forums over and over just doesn't make the people behind all the different "amiga successor" projects pool together, and they never will.
People will stay in camps, the bitching will continue. Maybe once everyone has non-beta projects out there the atmosphere will change from hostility to relief.
If we all stick to a set of defined standards, and don't deviate from them by using OS specific extensions then I think it will make a big difference.
Software written to the specs could be advertised as "100% Open Amiga Compliant" or something similar, if the community as a whole only buys/uses software of this type then the whole problem may go away. It won't be overnight, but it's a start.
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bloodline wrote:
The nearest thing to a standard we have is the 3.1 spec... + CGX + AHI + BSDSocket
That is the only thing we can "rely" on being present.
hopefully, some common ground can be found there.
-Edit- Damn, Almost forgot SDL :-D
MESA? ;-)
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Well... AROS has no 3D standard... But SDL uses OpenGL and that is what AROS plans to use... and I *think* MESA is an OpenGLoid...
so OpenGL is probably the standard. BUt can't be relied on, yet :-)
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I think you should be allowed to use OS-specific extensions (such as application.library, for example), but not require them to be "openamiga" compliant.
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Tickly wrote:
I think you should be allowed to use OS-specific extensions (such as application.library, for example), but not require them to be "openamiga" compliant.
Yes, couldn't agree more. That's the Amiga way afterall! :-D
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Tickly wrote:
I think you should be allowed to use OS-specific extensions (such as application.library, for example), but not require them to be "openamiga" compliant.
That's a brilliant idea!!!!
Yes, we should band together as a community and define an OpenAmiga standard...
PS: I forgote that the MUI API is available across the AmigaOSoids so that could be part of the standard too. :-)
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i also agree!!!
i can believe what you think about windows...
becouse my job is update/install windows system
and this job is from HELL :-o
my nerve is gone over thousand times..becouse
only thing what windows can do right is to be
UNSTABLE!!!!! :-D :-D
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bloodline wrote:
Tickly wrote:
I think you should be allowed to use OS-specific extensions (such as application.library, for example), but not require them to be "openamiga" compliant.
That's a brilliant idea!!!!
Yes, we should band together as a community and define an OpenAmiga standard...
PS: I forgote that the MUI API is available across the AmigaOSoids so that could be part of the standard too. :-)
So, to start, this could be a rough standard
OS3.1 API's
MUI 3.8
SDL 1.2
MESA 5.01
CGX 4
AHI 5.5
Alas, which PPC extension shall be supported? Warp/PowerUP? Both? ????????
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mdma wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Tickly wrote:
I think you should be allowed to use OS-specific extensions (such as application.library, for example), but not require them to be "openamiga" compliant.
That's a brilliant idea!!!!
Yes, we should band together as a community and define an OpenAmiga standard...
PS: I forgote that the MUI API is available across the AmigaOSoids so that could be part of the standard too. :-)
So, to start, this could be a rough standard
OS3.1 API's
MUI 3.8
SDL 1.2
MESA 5.01
CGX 4
Alas, which PPC extension shall be supported? Warp/PowerUP? Both? ????????
I've started a new thread to cover this :-)
And PPC standard should not be an issuse, as this is about native platforms. PowerUP and WarpOS were simply to add a different CPU to the old system. Basily they are Hacks which are not needed any more, lets kill them off now :-D
PowerUp and WarpOS have no context on any of the newer systems, as they are PPC extentions for a 68k system... a PPC extension for a PPC system :-? make no sense :-D
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Yes, we should band together as a community and define an OpenAmiga standard...
Nice I believe the Aros people have no problem, lets see from the other two camps what they`ll say. After all that will benefit everybody, I`ll have more apps in my AmigaOS 4.0 (and in my Aros system, I plan to buy a cheap PC just for it) I bet also some of the MorphOS guys would like to see that happening.
Why not making a poll here in Amiga.org? :-)
(And someone should make a site fro the promoting of the open Amiga standards as mdma said)
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bloodline wrote:
mdma wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Tickly wrote:
I think you should be allowed to use OS-specific extensions (such as application.library, for example), but not require them to be "openamiga" compliant.
That's a brilliant idea!!!!
Yes, we should band together as a community and define an OpenAmiga standard...
PS: I forgote that the MUI API is available across the AmigaOSoids so that could be part of the standard too. :-)
So, to start, this could be a rough standard
OS3.1 API's
MUI 3.8
SDL 1.2
MESA 5.01
CGX 4
Alas, which PPC extension shall be supported? Warp/PowerUP? Both? ????????
I've started a new thread to cover this :-)
And PPC standard should not be an issuse, as this is about native platforms. PowerUP and WarpOS were simply to add a different CPU to the old system. Basily they are Hacks which are not needed any more, lets kill them off now :-D
You beat me to it Matt! :-D
I'm off to the other thread now!
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PhatBoiCollier wrote:
So, if we are going to launch a new OS then for gods sake ALL OF YOU, grow up, pool resources and get on with it.
If we grew up, we'd become conformist, and being that, we'd jump on the slow boat to nowhere xp(ire) wagon!!!
AmigaOne! That commercial where people fly makes me laugh and laugh and lau.... :-D
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PhatBoiCollier I agree with you 100%.... Micro$oft Windows is overated and it's practice is buy out a company that is better or sink them. Not to mention that they spy on you also with crap running in back ground....
as PhatBoiCollier say
"So, if we are going to launch a new OS then for gods sake ALL OF YOU, grow up, pool resources and get on with it."
Lets do it
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As you can gather, I spend most my life in Windows. Task management, emails etc via Outlook, documentation in word etc. and to be frank, they all suck.
In R.A.D. and cash flow considerations they are fine.
I am so fed up of the Stupidity of this software. As a developer, I KNOW whats involved. I've written flight managements systems, holiday booking systems, stock control, chemical classification systems so I am experienced. The fundamental floor is the software has been added to and added to. The PROBLEMS are hardly addressed.
Tried Borland C Builder/Delphi 6 (or 7) or Visual Studio dotNET?
Sure, the latest version of Word can have text with sparkly lights but does it know where to put a page-break? No. Does it know how to count? (numbered lists) No. Style management. Yeah, right. Ok, now outlook comes with MSN messanger integration and loads of other bells and whistles but can you create a task and keep someone else informed of progress? No. ?
That’s why a real Windows developer doesn’t build on those existing MS based applications.
Tried StarOffice (Java based)?
Example of contact management/accounting/decision based document/task automation/work flow refer to http://www.locus.com.au/locus/affinity.html
(it's a two tier structure) .
And windows? Jesus, dont get me started on that, what the hell is it doing when it boots
A Windows developer should have known some of the basics in regards to Window's boot process.
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LOL @ Hammer - Don't hold back there mate! :¬)
I also develop for Windows. It's ok. Too much "legacy" (polite way of saying "outdated crap that should have been cut 10 years or more ago") but it does work, sometimes. Particularly XP which is actually quite good. My money though is on AROS, hence my involvement. As regards "growing up" well... yes, but growing up does not mean thinking the same, in fact it means the reverse. As far as I am concerned, people are free to promote whatever OS they like. I am hoping it won't matter anyway, because the superior platform will win in the end. And if it is not superior in some area, then the other(s) will take that/those niche(s).
I am pretty sure AROS is/is going OpenGL. If it is not.. it should and I'll have to have words... heh! As someone who does mostly graphics work, I have to say I unconditionally recommend adoption of OpenGL. I have to use Direct3D as well, but OpenGL should always be preferred, it's just that some people still use hardware without OGL support, Microsoft heavily promote DirectX and DirectX is very tightly integrated (now) with Windows. Indeed it is often preferable to GDI/GDI+ even for basic 2D "desktop" work.
Matt? Where's this other thread then?
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LOL @ Hammer - Don't hold back there mate! :¬)
Ah, OK... (I don’t know what you mean by that in specific terms)?
I also develop for Windows. It's ok. Too much "legacy" (polite way of saying "outdated crap that should have been cut 10 years or more ago") but it does work, sometimes.
(As you may already know)… Legacy support has been the main strength of X86 and Windows due to “investment protection”. It’s futile to make it as a negative attribute.
Refer to http://www.amd.com/us-en/Weblets/0,,7832_8366_7823_8718^7839,00.html
Microsoft's view on “investment protection”.
AROS has the potential (as an alternative means) to protect (and advance) Amiga based software investments outside the PowerPC(TM) architecture.
As far as I am concerned, people are free to promote whatever OS they like.
Sure...
because the superior platform will win in the end.
Depends on how one defines “superior platform” (it’s open to interpretation).
I am pretty sure AROS is/is going OpenGL
Well, the AOS 3.9 has Warp3D, thus it's natural that AROS must have it's own 3D APIs.
Microsoft heavily promote DirectX and DirectX is very tightly integrated (now) with Windows. Indeed it is often preferable to GDI/GDI+ even for basic 2D "desktop" work.
There's a (long term) reason for MS in regards to API migration e.g. Longhorn’s DirectX** WIMP/GUI with real time special effects…
**access to DirectX 8.1/9 class VPU/GPU's processing power.
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Gaidheal wrote:
I am pretty sure AROS is/is going OpenGL. If it is not.. it should and I'll have to have words... heh!
Matt? Where's this other thread then?
Of course AROS will use OpenGL!!! Did you ever doubt us? :-D
AFAIK Warp3D is an OpenGLoid (based on MESA) so that basicly means OGL has become the "standard".
Search for the "OpenAmiga Standard" thread.
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@Hammer:
"Don't hold back" is an idiomatic expression. I am guessing English is not your first language? In any case, don't fret it was not important.
re: legacy:
Sorry, just don't agree. Legacy support has been the biggest bane of Windows. I am well aware of MS' position, too. I just don't agree. As for x86, x86 != windows. Though X86 too has suffered because it is just a 1970s CPU on speed. So, yes, I think I can paint it as a "negative point" thankyou!
re: "superior" as I said in my post, that can depend on what you want. Where another platform delivers better performance in a given area, or features that are better suited to a certain market, it will establish itself as the dominant player in that niche. The ones that die are those who never had a niche, or else did not properly cultivate it once they gained it... Amiga anyone? :¬)
re: OpenGL: As Matt says, Warp3d is indeed OGL. I have not paid full attention to every aspect of AROS, my current involvement is in a very specific area for now. Also I was part of a discussion about whether or not full OpenGL support ought to be present.
re: DirectX: It does the job MS hoped - it is a high performance, proprietary set of libraries for multimedia applications. These days it covers every aspect of gaming, it started as some hardware independent (well, vendor independent) drivers for sound cards and video cards, combined with a standardized API for 2D (later 3D as well) graphics and sound&music. I happen to think its usefulness is rapidly waning, given the high quality vendor supplied drivers for the Windows platform which don't specifically target games.
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"Don't hold back" is an idiomatic expression. I am guessing English is not your first language?
“Don’t hold back” can mean several things…
Sorry, just don't agree. Legacy support has been the biggest bane of Windows. I am well aware of MS' position, too. I just don't agree.
Just look at the results...
As for x86, x86 != windows.
I don’t recall "X86 equalling Windows"… My statement regarding “X86 and Windows” is focusing on the common “investment protection” characteristics.
The AMD.com link refers the shared view in regards to investment protection. This view shouldn’t be viewed as degrading the work between SUSE X86 Linux and AMD..
X86 too has suffered because it is just a 1970s CPU on speed.
"AMD took this opportunity to get rid of some of the less used, or obsolete, functionality of the x86 processor. Support for the segmented memory module has been removed; all new programs for the x86-64 will make use of a flat 64-bit virtual address space. Programs executed under the compatibility sub-mode must be run in protected mode, since real-mode and virtual-8086-mode is removed in that sub-mode, and available only in legacy mode. These changes aren't a big deal though, since not many modern programs make use of these modes anyways." (For AMD K8)
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@bloodline:
"AFAIK Warp3D is an OpenGLoid (based on MESA) so that basicly means OGL has become the "standard"."
no, it isn't... On Amiga MiniGL/StormMESA draws the textures etc thanks to the Warp3D library... Warp3D works at a lower level than OpenGL, you can make Warp3D pure apps (and they should be a little faster than OpenGL ones)
Anyway I agree with using OpenGL as standard in AROS... a Warp3D wrapper library may be provided for compatibility with old apps... OS 3.x has Warp3D (even with UAE thanks to QuarxTex), MorphOS has Warp3D compatibility, OS4 has Warp3D... it's the 3D standard... as StormMESA uses Warp3D to draw everything, if you have Warp3D compatibility, you also have OpenGL thanks to StormMESA :-)
I'm not an expert in coding 3D apps, but what I understand is that Warp3D is only a "renderer" and is more near to Glide than OpenGL... it works at a lower level than OpenGL and allows the coder to maximize the optimization
BTW... how is going the integration of the uae's 68k emu for AROS?
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Crumb wrote:
@bloodline:
"AFAIK Warp3D is an OpenGLoid (based on MESA) so that basicly means OGL has become the "standard"."
no, it isn't... On Amiga MiniGL/StormMESA draws the textures etc thanks to the Warp3D library... Warp3D works at a lower level than OpenGL, you can make Warp3D pure apps (and they should be a little faster than OpenGL ones)
Anyway I agree with using OpenGL as standard in AROS... a Warp3D wrapper library may be provided for compatibility with old apps... OS 3.x has Warp3D (even with UAE thanks to QuarxTex), MorphOS has Warp3D compatibility, OS4 has Warp3D... it's the 3D standard... as StormMESA uses Warp3D to draw everything, if you have Warp3D compatibility, you also have OpenGL thanks to StormMESA :-)
I'm not an expert in coding 3D apps, but what I understand is that Warp3D is only a "renderer" and is more near to Glide than OpenGL... it works at a lower level than OpenGL and allows the coder to maximize the optimization
BTW... how is going the integration of the uae's 68k emu for AROS?
With all due respect, Lowlevel 3D API's are no longer useful. it does not make sense to optimise at that level when modern GFX harware has the 3D functions in hardware optimised for High level API's.
As for the 68K emu, you will have to ask Gaidheal
:-) But we have drawn up a plan that we all agree on.
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OK, I may be confusing Warp3D and MESA (I actually only really use OpenGL on X86 anyway, for the most part).
I have to agree with Matt though, never mind "hardware level addressing" even proprietary APIs (like Direct3D) are of limited usefulness and definitely to be deprecated in favour of OpenGL and the like.
We are not integrating UAE into AROS. Or more accurately, *I* am not not, at any rate. However, I am integrating "legacy Amiga" emulation into it. Work is at the very start, as I predicted it would be LOL But it is definitely not being ignored or forgotten about. Indeed, a post to the dev-list outlining the plan is probably due...
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@Gaidheal
I thought that you were going to use the uae-jit 68k engine as 68k emulator for AROS... I don't care much about AGA/ECS emulation... good luck with your emu ;-) it could turn AROS in a REAL option for Amigans :-)
With all my respect to AROS team's current work done, I think that having lots of apps is important and as some apps' support has been discontinued there are little chances of seeing a native AROS version :-/ so an emu would be great...
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there are little chances of seeing a native AROS version :-/
Don't be so sure..., I've already said too much :-D
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#icrosoft® publishes Windows2000 bug list (http://danlib64.tripod.com/funny/win2kbuglist.jpg)