Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: NewRevolution on June 10, 2003, 11:31:10 AM
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In the last few days I have been updated on the Amiga front. I?ve found out that Amiga (as we knew it) has divided into two fractions (Amiga Inc and MorphOS), each working towards their own goals? or are they?
I loved my Amiga, and I enjoyed so much comparing Amiga with a standard PC in the early-mid 90s. A standard Amiga had better sound, better graphics, it was a window + CLI based system and it was (at that time) quite fast.
But where is it going today? Why should stakeholders invest money into Amiga? Amiga is (I believe) old technology today. Can the Amiga OS compete with today?s advanced OS?s like Linux and Windows? What dose Amiga have to offer that will make AOS more attractive than other OS?s?
Yes it would be fun to dust of some old Amiga applications (and games). But how much am I willing to pay for that? $800? I?d rather dust of my old A1200 with my 68030 accelerator card and play with that.
Can anyone out there convince me why I should invest time and money in an attempt to revive Amiga?
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Can anyone out there convince me why I should invest time and money in an attempt to revive Amiga?
Why do hot-rodders hot-rod?
Why do mountain-climbers climb mountains?
Why do geeks masturbate over the latest gcc update?
Coz it's fun. No other reason matters.
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To quote Billie:
"because we want to! because we want to!"
:-P
Oh, and anyone who feels they need to download a particular track by Billie, think of something better to do, quick! :-)
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ROFLMAO!!
:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :lol:
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But how much am I willing to pay for that? $800? I?d rather dust of my old A1200 with my 68030 accelerator card and play with that.
Can anyone out there convince me why I should invest time and money in an attempt to revive Amiga?
$800 dollars...
Why...
Cos' Amiga computing is one of my hobbies thats why.
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NewRevolution wrote:
But where is it going today? Why should stakeholders invest money into Amiga? Amiga is (I believe) old technology today. Can the Amiga OS compete with today?s advanced OS?s like Linux and Windows? What dose Amiga have to offer that will make AOS more attractive than other OS?s?
AmigaOS has been always a simple, yet powerful OS. I prefer it to Windows, Linux and MacOS (pre-OSX). Why?
Windows: It's very difficult to get control of it. When I install a program, I never know exactly what gets copied where, at least not always. System and libraries have not recogniseable filenames, so I never know which system files I can delete and which not, a problem I never have with my Workbench partition. I don't understand why a internet browser should be so much part of the system that it's impossible to delete it without making the whole system instable. Also, I don't like an OS which needs to be reinstalled because many software installations were made which have slown down the os.
Linux: it's not standardized yet, there are many window managers around but none of them is the default one on all the Linux distros. Also, many tasks are still unnecessarily complicated (to copy files to a floppy you need to give "sync" command to fisically do it, just everything I experiment makes the system hang - I'm saying this as a Linux newbie)
MacOS: runs on a really nice hardware, I like it but it's too closed, I don't have the freedom to modify system files as I have on Amiga. I still have to test OSX, though.
IMHO the best OS running on PC hardware is Beos - it's similar to Amiga yet it's unique on its own. The problem is that it runs on x86 machines, which market is too much anarchic: there's not a "standard" pc that all the programs should be compatible with, hardware becames obsolete too fast!
Yes it would be fun to dust of some old Amiga applications (and games). But how much am I willing to pay for that? $800? I?d rather dust of my old A1200 with my 68030 accelerator card and play with that.
I use an Amiga1200 with a 68030 card, but I would be happy to run all my programs on a faster machine, especially for PersonalPaint, Aweb, Ibrowse, to be able to play mp3s at full quality, to play games like Quake and Payback, using my os of choice. Amithlon or WinUAE are not an option, they run AmigaOS under emulation, so the programs running on them will never be as fast as they could if they would be compiled for the cpu they are running on. I prefer a native OS, like Pegasos and Os4.
Varthall
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Why revive Amiga?
Well... uhm... ah ! It is...
Because AmigaOS is my favourite OS and I like to use the things that I like...
8-)
:-D
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NewRevolution wrote:
In the last few days I have been updated on the Amiga front. I?ve found out that Amiga (as we knew it) has divided into two fractions (Amiga Inc and MorphOS), each working towards their own goals? or are they?
I loved my Amiga, and I enjoyed so much comparing Amiga with a standard PC in the early-mid 90s. A standard Amiga had better sound, better graphics, it was a window + CLI based system and it was (at that time) quite fast.
But where is it going today? Why should stakeholders invest money into Amiga? Amiga is (I believe) old technology today. Can the Amiga OS compete with today?s advanced OS?s like Linux and Windows? What dose Amiga have to offer that will make AOS more attractive than other OS?s?
Yes it would be fun to dust of some old Amiga applications (and games). But how much am I willing to pay for that? $800? I?d rather dust of my old A1200 with my 68030 accelerator card and play with that.
Can anyone out there convince me why I should invest time and money in an attempt to revive Amiga?
Well if The Community has been split by AOS4 and MOS, one could say it will be brought together by AROS... :-D
I think the new PPC hardware is very exciting, If I had the money I would buy both. Well, AROS is being ported to the Pegasos and hopefully eventually the AmigaONE too, so I don't think buying either PPC solution will be a dead end so to speak.
It just depends on what you can afford, which probably puts favour on the Peg...
If you can't afford the current PPC solutions then AROS on a standard x86 board is your best solution, until your finanial situation improves
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Why revive Amiga OS?
Because perfection is always worth pursuing... no matter how elusive or how unlikely a goal it may be.
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-Edited by redrumloa- reason: piracy link
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I have been following the Amiga scene since I converted to windows years ago. And I had just very good memories about this platform. And a few day ago I bougt a second hand a4000/030 with 6mb ram and a slow old IDE hd. I installed OS 3.1 and some progs. And I must say it still flyes. It boots in 5 seconds, thats how long a wintel machine uses to fight its way throug bios.
My Amiga has a 100mb boot partition, and 2gb total disk. With windows or Linux I would not use this hd at all. It´s to slow and to small. For my Amiga it´s perfect.
As Amiga OS 4 is based on OS 3.1 I belive that It does not grow to GBs in the convertion. And since I get by with 6mb ram on OS3.1, 128mb will be enough (If not much) for OS4.0. I personaly have not run win2k or a linux desktop with less than 256 mb ram with pleasure.
OS4 is the potential beginning of somethimng new and great. Amiga want to port it to diffrent hardware. Just imagine how cheap and fun an amiga powered mp3 player/pda/cellular phone with workbench could be.
PS: AmigaOne will run linux, and it uses less power than Intel/amd (less heat=less noise from fans, and less power=smaller electrical bills ;)
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Why do geeks masturbate over the latest gcc update?
(Homer voice) My secret shame :-(
:-P
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zudobug wrote:
Why do geeks masturbate over the latest gcc update?
(Homer voice) My secret shame :-(
:-P
DOH!
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`Cause Amiga makes me happy :-) can you find a better reason?
It`s one of my hobbies, like hearing metal, reading books, seeing movies, programming in C++ etc.
(and wouldn`t be beautiful to do all these things on my beloved operating system? unite all my hobbies under my beloved computer?)
- I like the system structure (C, libs, S, prefs, devs, storage, etc)
- I like that that all my programms and the OS can be in greek and change them in english or italian in no time on the fly. The localization system is just wonderful, no need to change the whole binary, just make or find a catalog.
- I like that the file system isn`t static, I can put wherever I want my apps, make a partition only for programms and make my own categories such as Painting, music etc, and if I want to move an app in the worst case I`ll have to edit the user-startup.
- I like the way the datatype system works, if you want to create an app you don`t have to do everything from scratch i.e. if you want your program to see a gif image.
- I like the dynamic Ram Disk :-) I dload programms there and unlha them, if I don`t like it I throw it, non need to write on my hd, fragment it or whatever.
And last but not least because Amiga is a part of me. I grew with it, I`ve been using it since the elementary school (since 1989 if I remember correctly)
AmigaOS doesn`t want to take over the world (at least not anytime soon :P) it is for Amigans first (and ex-Amigans) and then when it becomes more complete as a choice (more apps like an office package etc.) for the others.
Read my quote why I want Amiga to continue to exist :-) I like to exercise myself in the things which bring to me happiness. :-) And Amiga is one of them. ;-)
(no I don`t think that anybody can find a reason to make someone spend 800 EYPO or 600 EYPO for a new system. Do you think that you could convince a friend of yours to buy a BSD/linux/BeOS box, if BSD/linux/BeOS runned only in AmigaOne/Pegasos for example? and the games of M$ OS? the apps?, Why not buying a PC? or upgrade his current if he already has one? in my example the OS doesn`t run in x86)
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NewRevolution asked:
Yes it would be fun to dust of some old Amiga applications (and games). But how much am I willing to pay for that? $800? I?d rather dust of my old A1200 with my 68030 accelerator card and play with that.
Can anyone out there convince me why I should invest time and money in an attempt to revive Amiga?
IF it would take someone to convince you -- you probally are already satified with your present situation; what-ever it is!
I, don't have to "dust of some old Amiga applications" . . . . I NEVER stopped using Amiga (last 14 years!). My A2000 is 'stuck' at 68060 CPU, PicassoII Display, 2Mb CHIP, 32Mb FAST, and (presently) 4 HDDs totalling 5Gb!
I have my second SCSI Flatbed Scanner, a seven-y-o CD-ROM, and may have to install a USB Card for access to digital camera files!
I'm READY for an upgrade!
° No interest in BorgOS -- Mac doesn't give enough "I want to do it MY way" -- Linux is like a house that's NEVER finished!
I think that AmigaOS4 will return that "Loving feeling" so its NOT "gone-gone-gone"! :-)
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Yeah - u guys are right.
I'm gonna dust off my A1200 when I get back home. What monitors can I use today with the Amiga???
@ Gopal
We are from the same district :-P I'm from Namsos!
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You'd be surprised to know that an avid Amigan, recently got his 17" Flatscreen monitor to work with his Amiga1200!
In other words it is quite possible to make your miggy compliant with any monitor out there. In fact, the TV out RGB compatible plugs are very versatile for this very purpose.
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I remember, more than once, running into some files named something like,
ksie1526v
ksie1527v
ksie1528v
...
on 95 or 98, and they were 10 megs each!!! What ever they were, never delete a file on widows, it may be the end of you!
Well, I suppose that true of any os, but WHAT WERE THEY???
Then there's a couple of weeks ago, when on xp, I found out it defaults to 1.5 times the size of your ram, swap files. I have 1 gig of ram. I tried to change it, following instructions I found on the internet, instead it did NOTHING. Then I thought it needed to erase it once (so I changed a setting in the registry), before remaking the new size I chose of 200 megs. Instead it took the 2.26 GHz P4 about 50 seconds to shut down on every power off!
What's wrong with winkdohs?
No RAM: disk, no RAD:, no SHELL, how about not being able to copy all the files from the HD to a 100 meg zip disk (right after installing the OS), then if you need to re-install the OS, just copy it back to DH0:, AND IT WORKS. (Something you may need to do once a year, or less.)
Our desktop AOS4.0 is so small, it can run on a PDA now, without ANY programs being removed!
Able to run IBrowse in ram:, and all your cached pages are there, then not there, if you so please!!!
Boot time less than 16 seconds.
Cool shareware.
No logging in and password crap.
F U N !
AmigaOne! The last personal computer!!! :-D :-D
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Because it was a great machine that never reached as high as it should have done.
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Our desktop AOS4.0 is so small, it can run on a PDA now, without ANY programs being removed!
Can it? Have you seen it? I don't know of many PPC based PDAs....
BTW, AROS can already run on Plam devices :-D
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NewRevolution wrote:
In the last few days I have been updated on the Amiga front. I?ve found out that Amiga (as we knew it) has divided into two fractions (Amiga Inc and MorphOS), each working towards their own goals? or are they? bla, bla, bla ,blaaaa
I WANT AMIGA BECAUSE AMIGA COMPUTERS ARE FUN! AND FOR ME IS AMIGA PLATTFORM IS A GOOD HOME-FUN-COMPUTER! .......pc and windows are boring and a sadly joke in my Eyes!
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@bloodline
Actually, IBM has released the spec to one, but AOS4 won't be able to run on it while MOS can. (The spec uses the low-end 40x series of PPC's which lack the MMU so crucial to AOS4 according to the spec sheet but incidental to MOS)
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@NewRevolution
Who said you had to pay $800? For an AmigaOneXE, sure. However the basic Pegasos II will only be $299.
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Varthall wrote:
Linux: it's not standardized yet, there are many window managers around but none of them is the default one on all the Linux distros. Also, many tasks are still unnecessarily complicated (to copy files to a floppy you need to give "sync" command to fisically do it, just everything I experiment makes the system hang - I'm saying this as a Linux newbie)
I am not going to turn this into a crash course on Linux, but... excuse me? The window manager thing is unlikely to be resolved, given the fact that X is designed to be fitted with different managers. I can use a very simple or a very elaborate one. Other OSes are as closed as a clam in that regard.
However, what really made me go 'huh?' was that you somehow don't understand the reason for sync. Linux uses a buffered filesystem, so *everything* you write out to disk is cached. This allows for a great speedup of file I/O, since if the data written out is needed again, you just obtain it from RAM. There is no need at all to issue a sync manually---in fact, unmounting the floppy will do it for you. The design is to cache everything, and you can add auto-flushing capabilities later on if you so desire.
Third thing: I am *really* curious as how you manage to lock up the system 'with everything you experiment'. You can crash Linux, but it takes an effort, and to be very honest, I don't think a newbie can do it. So please, to satisfy my curiosity, what kind of experiments do you conduct?
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downix wrote:
@bloodline
Actually, IBM has released the spec to one, but AOS4 won't be able to run on it while MOS can. (The spec uses the low-end 40x series of PPC's which lack the MMU so crucial to AOS4 according to the spec sheet but incidental to MOS)
Now you mention it I do remember a "mobile" version of the PPC announced by IBM.
I see no reason why MOS can and AOS4 can't other than political reasons. :-D
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You can crash Linux, but it takes an effort, and to be very honest,
Not to me when I installed a couple of years slackware... after a while I just logged as a root and the x server went down... with no particular reason and it was random not always...(maybe it was something I did or it was that distro that had problem), well anyway who cares about linux? I`ve got win xp, the principle is the same, they are not AmigaOS so I`ll choose for my PC the one that has more apps that I need and more games, so win xp is the winner and linux now just doesn`t exist, it took a lot of space from my hd for nothing.
I`ve installed netBSD though in my miggy just for fun and I like it more that linux.
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Atheist wrote:
No logging in and password crap.
I concider this a must. Until MOS and AOS can offer some sort of user security and differentiation (i.e seperately customizable desktops) I won't be using them. My wife and I can't share a computer without it.
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Dagon wrote:
You can crash Linux, but it takes an effort, and to be very honest,
Not to me when I installed a couple of years slackware... after a while I just logged as a root and the x server went down... with no particular reason and it was random not always...(maybe it was something I did or it was that distro that had problem), well anyway who cares about linux? I`ve got win xp, the principle is the same, they are not AmigaOS so I`ll choose for my PC the one that has more apps that I need and more games, so win xp is the winner and linux now just doesn`t exist, it took a lot of space from my hd for nothing.
I`ve installed netBSD though in my miggy just for fun and I like it more that linux.
X Crashes non stop for me... Probably due to some dodgy GFX drivers more than X's fault... but once X goes it can take the Keyboard with it and that's it no more Linux session... Reboot time.
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@bloodline
What political reasons? That Hyperion announced that AmigaOS4
requires the use of an MMU hardly classifies it as political, it's
their design decision, just like their design decision to only support
32-bit addressing even tho the PPC spec allows for more (the G4, for
example, has 36-bit). Just their design choices at work here.
MorphOS was built with the concept of being able to run it on MMU-less
systems, so I understand, so it would, unlike AmigaOS4, run on IBM's
mobile PowerPC core (which lacks an MMU). Nothing political about it,
the design teams made design choices and it limits the end-choice of
CPU each respective OS will run on.
This does not prevent someone from building a portable based on IBM's
440 core, which does have an MMU, but it does prevent AmigaOS 4 from
running on the 40x cores that lack an MMU that is specified in IBM's
spec.
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Linux: it's not standardized yet, there are many window managers around but none of them is the default one on all the Linux distros.
Well, that's what choice is about.
Also, many tasks are still unnecessarily complicated (to copy files to a floppy you need to give "sync" command to fisically do it, just everything I experiment makes the system hang - I'm saying this as a Linux newbie)
And as newbie one can be clueless :)
You do not need to type "sync", if you want to remove the floppy you only need to umount it. The reason your system hangs is because you remove the floppy without dismounting it. When you dismount it (umount) it will be synced automaticly. Also, if the floppy is VFAT-formattet floppy, you might want to try the mcopy and mdir commands.
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The reason your system hangs is because you remove the floppy without dismounting it.
So is there or is it not any deamon that does all this things automatically, mount, dismount floppies or CD`s when I insert them or when I remove them, without using the mouse and the keyboard, just my finger on the eject of each device. They had told me that exists but I couldn`t find any so the main reason I erased linux (apart that win xp had more apps and games, and linux just took a lot of space for doing less) from my PC was this -->
many tasks are still unnecessarily complicated
I should add: inessential tasks unnecessarly complicated.
But then again I could install something like red hat or mandrake but linux biggots would say that none of them is a good distro and I should install something like gentoo (it`s in fashion this days lol).
I guess they like doing inessential tasks like inserting a floppy or a cd more complicated than they should be.
(other unnecessarly stuff are such as the case sensitive file system which linux users will say that it is a "feature" lol `cause that way you can have two aliases with the same name ie cp Cp lol why not giving a name that has a sense? like saying what does that command or give a clue with adding one letter more?
It is a real pain in the *** when I press tab in the shell and doesn`t appear what I want just because I had a letter in lower case.)
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downix wrote:
@bloodline
What political reasons? That Hyperion announced that AmigaOS4
requires the use of an MMU hardly classifies it as political, it's
their design decision, just like their design decision to only support
32-bit addressing even tho the PPC spec allows for more (the G4, for
example, has 36-bit). Just their design choices at work here.
MorphOS was built with the concept of being able to run it on MMU-less
systems, so I understand, so it would, unlike AmigaOS4, run on IBM's
mobile PowerPC core (which lacks an MMU). Nothing political about it,
the design teams made design choices and it limits the end-choice of
CPU each respective OS will run on.
This does not prevent someone from building a portable based on IBM's
440 core, which does have an MMU, but it does prevent AmigaOS 4 from
running on the 40x cores that lack an MMU that is specified in IBM's
spec.
I didn't know it requires an MMU?!?!?! I assumed they would have an mmu.library in the same way AROS will.
I think that using a library to support optional hardware is a much more amiga way to do things..
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So is there or is it not any program that does all this thing automatically, mount, dismount floppies or CD`s when I insert them or when I remove them, without using the mouse and the keyboard, just my finger on the eject of each device.
Automount will do it, but then again I've not had to bother with any of that as Mandrake has had automounting devices for quite some time.
All that said and done I don't think Linux is for everyone. I've played around with it more or less since it's birth and watched it grow in by leaps and bounds (especially over the last 5 years).
When I sold up and moved overseas, a Linux box ended up taking the place of the Amiga I left behind - as it embodied the spirit of 'fun and tinkering' that that the Amiga held for me.
Still it's not for everyone - there are still many apps needed if it's ever to have much mainstream appeal.
One lesson that can be learned from Linux and it's community -- look over the progress and growth over the last 5 years. They have to be doing something right, and they are playing the 'catchup game' just as the new Amiga community will be.
Siggy.
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@downix
http://www-3.ibm.com/chips/techlib/techlib.nsf/techdocs/852569B20050FF778525699300551924
Do you mean that series of chips don't have an MMU?
Ian
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I suggest you learn how to read.
First of all, many embedded CPU's by IBM do have a MMU like the 440 GP or 440 GX for instance.
Moreover, we were discussing desktop usage, not PDA usage.
The whole idea that you can run a desktop OS lock, stock and barrel on a PDA is ridiculous.
You need to tailor it to specific resolutions, input devices etc.
ExecSG is flexible enough to cope without MMU if that were required.
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@amimonkey
DOH! I was confusing IBM's embedded with Mot's. Egg on my face, my appologies.
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Heheh - no problem Downix!
Nice to see an apology from somebody for a change! :-)
Ian
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N7VQM wrote:
I concider this a must. Until MOS and AOS can offer some sort of user security and differentiation (i.e seperately customizable desktops) I won't be using them. My wife and I can't share a computer without it.
Why, what have you been downloading?
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Karlos wrote:
Why, what have you been downloading?
:-o
Actually, it's that my idea from a well-laid out, useful desktop is totally backwards from her idea of a well-laid out, useful desktop. We were getting into "discussions" over icons, among other things.
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Of course if you try to explain how Amiga was more compact than Linux to a Linux user, they will ALWAYS begin to brag about how hey got there Kernal to compile in under 1Mb!
Well that is just sad. For one, I don't need to recompile my dang kernal just to plug in a new piece of hardware, and for second, Amiga OS could boot, multi-task and have a VERY easy to use and configure GUI enviroment in half a Mb! Can't beat that! :)
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@NewRevolution
My reasons for the Amiga.
Well, comes down to why the Amiga500/1200 did so well in their time.
Transposing why my parent’s bought my first A500 instead of Compaq/IBM 386 machine (installed with OS/2 or Windows 2.x).
Plug and Play games machine + Small office/home/school work i.e. A500/A1200’s targeted market. A parent doesn’t have worry about X86 style computer maintenance (e.g. installing games, careful to avoid heat sinks falling off and ‘etc’) when one packs kid’s leisure machine into their carry bags (for night stay overs with their friends).
The A500/A1200 is a cheap semi-portable machine with durability/ease of use designed for home/school use.
In simple terms, I would like to see a Nintendo Game Cube like hardware with a home/office/school work capabilities. Eyetech’s future cheap AmigaOne would be nice. I recall Alan was stating along this lines (e.g. A500/A1200 targeted market). "Amiga CD32 Mark 2" perhaps.
The closest to this requirement is Sony's Playstation 2 with Linux add-on kit**, BUT I don’t think Linux is idiot proof enough for the ‘average’ citizen.
**X-BOX with Linux kit (non-official) is another potential solution.
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Of course if you try to explain how Amiga was more compact than Linux to a Linux user, they will ALWAYS begin to brag about how hey got there Kernal to compile in under 1Mb!
Try it with a pure blown WIMP system (with sufficient software titles availability + plug and play games).
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@NewRevoution
"What does Amiga have to offer?"
Why, just ask any of us who have been using the platform for the past 18 years. Nuff said. :-D :-D :-D
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Speed, easy to use, just works. I really like the speed of the Amiga GUI and how it works. The closest to its speed are BeOS, QNX, and maybe MacOS X. Windows XP isn't quite as fast, but XP is faster than Linux on my Athlon 1900. IMO Linux is more bloated than XP, but that's for another forum. Amiga has a fast, smooth GUI. Amiga is simple enough for the technically challenged yet powerful enough for many power users. I'm getting to the point in dealing with computers (been with it since the Atari 2600/Intellivision) that I want something that is quick, is responsive, is simple to use, and is powerful enough to do whatever I want. Some Amiga programs may cause software failures, but at least a reboot is only 6 seconds compared to 30 seconds with XP, 60+ seconds on Linux. BeOS, which I use mostly for Internet and Email because my A1200 is not yet connected to my LAN, boots in about 7 seconds. The days when computers take more than 10 seconds to boot are over; this is the 21st century. In my technical support experience, Companies lose more money on employees having to wait long periods of time for their systems to reboot after a system crash than (no offense) workers who take many smoke breaks. My $0.02.
And one more thing. Amiga isn't dead nor is it rising from the grave. The Amiga was on temporary leave of absence. :-)
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DavidF215 wrote:
...60+ seconds on Linux...
Really? On the Athlon 1900 you mention? What ARE you doing to the poor thing? From the time I press the power switch on my AmigaOne G3@800Mhz to the time I see gdm prompting me to log in is about 15 to 20 seconds tops. Compared to the pitiful 3 and a half minutes my 1.2GHz PIII with Win2k server manages (they're both running pretty much identical services since I recently migrated my users from the Win box to the Linux box - although the Winbox is of course running a whole lot of services I don't want as well - such is the nature of the beast)
My old A4000 used to talke about 40 seconds to a minute to boot... but I was torturing the poor thing pretty severely in startup...
Bring on AOS4! :)
Regards,
Ben de Waal
(typed from the AmigaOne G3XE running Debian)
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@cymric
Third thing: I am *really* curious as how you manage to lock up the system 'with everything you experiment'. You can crash Linux, but it takes an effort, and to be very honest, I don't think a newbie can do it. So please, to satisfy my curiosity, what kind of experiments do you conduct?
....play divx in xine. about 5% chance of complete lock up with a green screen (not even playing fullscreen). What it is doing and why I have no clue, but I should not need to care about such anyway.
Anyway, I too would hate to discuss linux, your comment just made me remember why I boot up linux only for programming :-)
Sincerely,
-Kenneth Straarup.
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I would throw in a 3rd faction there. Those that want to run Amiga or Amiga-like OS's on other hardware.
You can include UAE, Amithlon and even AROS into this group. I would say that this would probably comprise as large, or even larger number of users (mostly due to WinUAE/AmigaForever/AIAB being so easy to use these days).
I personally look towards AROS as my future Amiga use. Being open-source gives it a linux-like attraction.
Just my opinion though.
Both the Amiga1/OS4 and MorphOS/Pegasus would be nice though...
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Varthall wrote:
Linux: it's not standardized yet, there are many window managers around but none of them is the default one on all the Linux distros. Also, many tasks are still unnecessarily complicated (to copy files to a floppy you need to give "sync" command to fisically do it, just everything I experiment makes the system hang - I'm saying this as a Linux newbie)
You should try out my setup for autofs :-)
Always mount removable media with -o sync, and preferably mount it from autofs with a timeout of 1-3 seconds. Works nicely for cdroms, floppy and usb thingies.
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YttriumOx wrote:
DavidF215 wrote:
...60+ seconds on Linux...
Really? On the Athlon 1900 you mention? What ARE you doing to the poor thing?
It's Red Hat 8.0. FreeBSD booted much faster, but the mouse in X freaked out under FreeBSD. X ran faster on FreeBSD, too, but that's for another thread. :-)
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DavidF215 wrote:
YttriumOx wrote:
DavidF215 wrote:
...60+ seconds on Linux...
Really? On the Athlon 1900 you mention? What ARE you doing to the poor thing?
It's Red Hat 8.0. FreeBSD booted much faster, but the mouse in X freaked out under FreeBSD. X ran faster on FreeBSD, too, but that's for another thread. :-)
Well that'll be because you don't have DMA enabled.
edit /etc/sysconfig/harddisks
and un-comment the lines that set up the UDMA stuff by removing the #
also, install apt4 from freshrpms.net, and 'apt-get prelink'.
then 'prelink -afmR' as root.
Your machine should be a lot quicker after that.
You can also disble service you don't need with the redhat tools IIRC.
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@yttrumox
Ok, since we're bragging about startup times:
On my Pegasos, booting MOS, it takes 5 seconds to get Ambient up once the OF initializes (which takes usually 4 seconds)
As for booting Debian, usually 14 seconds once OF is setup.
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Cymric wrote:
I am not going to turn this into a crash course on Linux, but... excuse me? The window manager thing is unlikely to be resolved, given the fact that X is designed to be fitted with different managers. I can use a very simple or a very elaborate one. Other OSes are as closed as a clam in that regard.
Well, it depends what is for anyone more important in an Os, a wide choice of incompatible managers, or a single one set as standard. In my point of view, a standardized one is more important, as it would be for many programmers who wouldn't have to worry which manager to choose before starting to code. Well, I could be wrong... do all the managers in Linux have a common set of basic functions for windows managing and the like?
However, what really made me go 'huh?' was that you somehow don't understand the reason for sync. Linux uses a buffered filesystem, so *everything* you write out to disk is cached. This allows for a great speedup of file I/O, since if the data written out is needed again, you just obtain it from RAM. There is no need at all to issue a sync manually---in fact, unmounting the floppy will do it for you. The design is to cache everything, and you can add auto-flushing capabilities later on if you so desire.
The problem is that AFAIK only Linux manages floppies and other devices this way: recent versions of Windows use caching, Beos requires mounting of devices, but they don't do delayed synching. It's nice that it's possible to do autoflushing, but I would prefer it to be set as default, I've spent half an afternoon to try to understand why files don't get copied to floppy even if the cp command was succesfull.
Also, caching can lead to unnecessarily problems: on a machine with Windows 2000, when I copy something to a floppy, to check it was copied correctly I usually copy it back to hard drive, but because of caching I have to take off the floppy, click on the drive's icon, reinsert the floppy and reclick to icon to be sure that the buffred has been flushed. Maybe there's some other way to avoid this, but I don't know of any other. Not that I use often floppies, but it's annoying neverthless.
Third thing: I am *really* curious as how you manage to lock up the system 'with everything you experiment'. You can crash Linux, but it takes an effort, and to be very honest, I don't think a newbie can do it. So please, to satisfy my curiosity, what kind of experiments do you conduct?
During an install of Slackware 9 I was trying to set a default window manager. I don't remember what have I done, but while trying to do so, at a reboot the system reported an error and it wouldn't boot. Later I've found out that the link of xinit has to be changed, in my case from xinit.kde to xinitrc. But when I wanted to try another wm, linking another file to xinitrc didn't work - startx loaded the same wm.
I had worse experiences with OpenBSD on Amiga. I was trying to add the support for the amiga's filesystem, to be able to read my Amiga partition under BSD. I have found very little information on internet, I've tried to add a line to fstab but I coudn't mount the partition. Later I found an example fstab which had an additional boolean flag on every line. Maybe this flag was working only on later versions of OpenBSD, because after adding it the system wouldn't boot again and I didn't find any other solution than reinstalling everything.
Of course it matters how much anyone is used to a system - I'm using AmigaOs 3.0 since 1996 and because of this I feel much more confortable when I use it.
Varthall
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olegil wrote:
You should try out my setup for autofs :-)
Always mount removable media with -o sync, and preferably mount it from autofs with a timeout of 1-3 seconds. Works nicely for cdroms, floppy and usb thingies.
Autofs? Is this a script?
I'll try the -o thing as suggested, thanks :-)
Varthall
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why "revive" Amiga????
my amiga have never been dead! and now that i have a THREE OS laptop, i can tell you that while windows2000 is the most stable of that list of horror shows, it's STILL windows! and while I like my linux (RH8) - it's stable and fun to use and hs some cool programs, it does have a few wierd things about it. like the fact that if you want to install a newer nVidia driver you have to get a geek friend to research the process and then recompile the kernal and ghod knows what else. dance around standing stones at nite?
anyway, as soon as i got WinUAE up I breathed a sign of relief. I was seeing an old friend again. it's not perfect, but it's wonderful.
and THAT's why I want to still have Amiga in whatever form i can get it. (and my real ones still work)
Amiga really IS my friend.
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and THAT's why I want to still have Amiga in whatever form i can get it. (and my real ones still work)
And, if all goes well, you and I (and all others... ;-) ) will have Amiga in a better form that anyone had dreamed about in the recent dark years...
Thanks to OS dev team.
Ale 8-)
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Hi,
The reasons I want the Amiga to be revived are:
1. I like everything about the Amiga.
2. With computers, OS's and systems dying out like
winblows plague ridden rats, I really don't want to
be left with just winblows operated computers.
3. Linux is ok if your a 100% mindless geek that
doesn't know what sex is and has time to play
with themselves while doing a computer. (That
goes in both areas), but I would rather use flexible
system that does not take a 15 year college
course and 10 tons of books to understand and
use, and besides I am spoiled by the Amiga just
plug in your hardware and go.
5. Never used an apple product and never will or
shall I say that the only people using apples are
plastic know nothings that don't understand what
computers are about. These users are rated
lower than Linux users and are even rated lower
than winblows users in my book.
So now you know, $800 to $1700 is cheap to bring back a computer that can help prevent the winblows computer monopoly from existing.
Smerf
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smerf wrote:
5. Never used an apple product and never will or
shall I say that the only people using apples are
plastic know nothings that don't understand what
computers are about. These users are rated
lower than Linux users and are even rated lower
than winblows users in my book.
Go to CompUSA this week and try out their new OS X. I think that you'll find that it's pretty neat. I liked it a lot. It is a simple GUI with *nix power.
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DavidF215 wrote:
smerf wrote:
5. Never used an apple product and never will or
shall I say that the only people using apples are
plastic know nothings that don't understand what
computers are about. These users are rated
lower than Linux users and are even rated lower
than winblows users in my book.
Go to CompUSA this week and try out their new OS X. I think that you'll find that it's pretty neat. I liked it a lot. It is a simple GUI with *nix power.
So is Ximian Desktop 2 on Linux Ximian Desktop 2 (http://www.ximian.com/products/desktop/)
And you don't need to break the bank to buy the hardware it runs on! ;-)
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@Bloodline:
X Crashes non stop for me... Probably due to some dodgy GFX drivers more than X's fault... but once X goes it can take the Keyboard with it and that's it no more Linux session... Reboot time.
Then you need to run sshd ;) Saved my skin more than once.
I've only really crashed X while trying to run some dodgy svga game or other as root... or when I upgraded X right from under it, while it was running... etc. I think VMWare crashed it once, but can't be sure. I found it fairly stable, considering I have to use Linux 2.4.21-rc2-ac2 just to have my KT400 chipset/ 8x AGP + Radeon 9000 work! BTW Later kernel revisions break my OpenGL apps - they slow down to 1fps (but still seem to be hardware rendered? Software mode works faster?) :/
And a comment about AROS: I like! I've talked to others complaining that the only experimental OSS OS projects out there are just boot loaders or are based on a hacked linux or BSD kernel, well now they have AROS to contend with ;)
This holidays I'm going to sit down and play with the AROS code. Prior experience? I wrote a small RTOS for the M68HC912B32 ('HC12) in about 2KiB of FLASH; it had such amazing features as hybrid rate monotonic/round robin scheduling, malloc(), free(), and printf() :P All my own code of course, none of this libc/newlib stuff.. ;)
- Paul
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Looking at it purely from a business standpoint it may not make much sense at all. No doubt the first to actually bring back the Amiga will make some money at first, but the point of saturation I believe will be reached rather quickly as there may not be much of a market selling only to long time Amiga users to cover the development costs of bringing the product to market.
As Linux has proven, the alternative OS market is one that over time appears to be a market worthwhile going after. I believe this is where ultimately OS4 and MorphOS will be judged successful or not. And where there will be money to be made.
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the reason there are alternatives to windoze is simply because people WANT and NEED them. some people are simply not happy with the utter dumbness of windows.
it annoys me. I love AfterEffects and i'm glad i can do that, but i would prefer another OS. i'm spoilt. the end!
(ps, my linux never crashes. there's something to be said about nerds :-D )
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Because, quite simply..Amiga has always been the best, and it still can do things that pc's and macs cannot.
I not only use a 4000t based flyer, but also a Dual 1ghz Mac, and I can do easier editing on it..and I can do live video switching..unlike Mac and premiere.
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Lwanmtr wrote:
I not only use a 4000t based flyer, but also a Dual 1ghz Mac, and I can do easier editing on it..and I can do live video switching..unlike Mac and premiere.
A Dual 1ghz Mac can't do live editing? I thought that it could, but I'm not into video editting yet either. Is there an extra hardware feature that could do live editting? Quite surprising if it can't.
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@Varthall:
Your reply is too long for me to quote in full, so I'll just make do 'blindly', I hope you don't mind.
As for the window manager thing: it's a bit complex as there is a distinction between window managers and toolkits. Window managers deal with the behaviour of the entire window, while toolkits deal with the contents of the window. The two are separate entities. While there is a certain standard a window manager has to conform to, this does not apply to the toolkits. Programs developed for one toolkit are not source-code compatible with another toolkit, but should run with any window manager. Most likely, you get the best look-and-feel if you use the toolkit's preferred manager, though. So, there's two issues: window-related actions are standardised, but things like buttons, menus, gadgets and input boxes are not. And yes, that is a big shame---for consistency it should be a toolkit or several which are so close to one another the normal user doesn't see the difference.
As for the floppies: well, this is Linux (or Unix, for that matter, as all Unices do it like this). You get used to it :-). In any case, I find your verification step rather cumbersome---why do you do that? I trust my floppy drives to write out things correctly.
Finally, regarding the crashing of Linux: what you describe is not an actual crash of Linux, where the kernel blurts out a 'kernel panic' and dumps the CPU state onto your screen. Yes, you can accidentally cause an error in a configuration file causing severe problems during the boot sequence. Rather like making a typo very early on in s:startup-sequence. (You can always recover the system with a rescue disk, a reinstallation of the OS is never necessary.) Once the system is up and running, it is solid as a rock, however. Something which can not be said for Amigas, I'm afraid, although I hear that OS4.0 is decidedly better at trapping and catching program errors without bringing down the entire system.
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I dissagree slightly with the Linux startup Vs AMIGA startup.
I use both Linux Win and AMIGA and I have never need a bootdisk to recover an AMIGA from a startup-sequence mistype.
A Ctrl c or Ctrl x always got me out of trouble in an AMIGA and I could load up a text editior and fix whatever typo I had made, BEFORE the OS had finished loading it's libraries needed to display even the workbench screen. Once I had corrected the typo, I could then re issue a run of the startup-sequence and finish booting on the same Boot. there wasn't even a need for a reset of the PC (personal Computer) AMiga OS is something to behold. all in a 512k ROM. :)
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If Amiga technology were to fully use the latest chips, busses, and memory, it would be so far superior to other machines that their creators would weep and gnash their teeth.
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In response to the Apple-Users-Suck rant:
And the fact that know-nothings can use this machine so productively is considered a bad thing?
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Why revive Amiga ?
To revive something it would need to be dead.
Many people never stopped using AmigasOS as their
main operating system.
It is not about reviving at all, but as to giving it a highly
needed update to be "back in business" as 68k is really outdated these days.
Steffen Haeuser
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by MagicSN on 2003/6/30 2:00:35
Many people never stopped using AmigasOS as their
main operating system.
Just because a few people can cope with AOS in today's network, that doesn't mean it's significant enough to build a future on. Back during the Amiga's Golden Era, it was easy to be different OS/platform in the computer market. Today, forget about it, as the major OSs out there have most niche markets were long ago covered. What both OS4 and MOS has to do is find some killer app and exploit it. Failing that, it's going to be a short year for atleast one comapny.
Dammy
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Cymric wrote:
@Varthall:
As for the window manager thing: it's a bit complex as there is a distinction between window managers and toolkits. Window managers deal with the behaviour of the entire window, while toolkits deal with the contents of the window. The two are separate entities. While there is a certain standard a window manager has to conform to, this does not apply to the toolkits. Programs developed for one toolkit are not source-code compatible with another toolkit, but should run with any window manager. Most likely, you get the best look-and-feel if you use the toolkit's preferred manager, though. So, there's two issues: window-related actions are standardised, but things like buttons, menus, gadgets and input boxes are not. And yes, that is a big shame---for consistency it should be a toolkit or several which are so close to one another the normal user doesn't see the difference.
Thanks for the explanation. So, also on Amiga we could say we have different "toolkits", like Mui, Reaction and Gadtools, so we have similar problems of consistency between interfaces. Well, maybe this will be a matter of past as os4.0 uses Reaction as standard. At least we have just one window manager :-)
As for the floppies: well, this is Linux (or Unix, for that matter, as all Unices do it like this). You get used to it :-). In any case, I find your verification step rather cumbersome---why do you do that? I trust my floppy drives to write out things correctly.
I trust my drives too, the floppies are the ones I don't trust. About half of all my floppies has bad blocks, which is not surprising as the last batch of floppies I bought are well over two years old.
Finally, regarding the crashing of Linux: what you describe is not an actual crash of Linux, where the kernel blurts out a 'kernel panic' and dumps the CPU state onto your screen.
Well, so I guess that it was just the x server that crashed.
Yes, you can accidentally cause an error in a configuration file causing severe problems during the boot sequence. Rather like making a typo very early on in s:startup-sequence. (You can always recover the system with a rescue disk, a reinstallation of the OS is never necessary.)
At least I know that at boot time the only configuration files read are the startup-sequence and user-sequence, so if something is going wrong I know where to take a look. I've the feeling that on Linux the configuration files used during boot are many and cluttered in many directories.
Once the system is up and running, it is solid as a rock, however. Something which can not be said for Amigas, I'm afraid, although I hear that OS4.0 is decidedly better at trapping and catching program errors without bringing down the entire system.
That's sadly true. However I was happy to discover lately that at least the lighter gurus could be recovered by MCP with the "Jump RTS" fuction.
Very handy for AWeb crashes :-)
Varthall
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Simply because you can do what you want with it. You're not tied to MS, you haven't got the learning curve of linux and it isn't the kludgy MacOS on linux of OS-X
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Because, quite simply..Amiga has always been the best, and it still can do things that pc's and macs cannot. Window's, Mac's don;t cut it
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IMO - If you have to ask, you have been using a PC for to long. :-D
M$ Borg - you have been assimilated :-o. Pray for salvation :roll:. Go on a PC fast for a month :boohoo:. Save your Amiga soul :crazy: ! :lol: :roflmao:
:idea: Amiga Doctor says: Play 2 classic amiga games a night for two weeks. Investigate the structure of the OS and write an essay. Create an animation depicting the distruction of M$. Take 2 aspirin and call back in a month. :-D
(Or forever be a M$ Kronnie) :-? :-P
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AmigaOS = extremely low latency, small memory and performance footprint.
Which is why we are seeing intrest in it from companies active in these markets.
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HyperionMP wrote:
AmigaOS = extremely low latency, small memory and performance footprint.
Which is why we are seeing intrest in it from companies active in these markets.
Well put !!
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Yea,
No other computer has the true amiga feelings you get when you know you are one different user then the world full of Macs and PCs. I guess as long as your OS does what you want, then ok.
AMIGA RULES! :-D
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Just because a few people can cope with AOS in today's network, that doesn't mean it's significant enough to build a future on. Back during the Amiga's Golden Era, it was easy to be different OS/platform in the computer market. Today, forget about it, as the major OSs out there have most niche markets were long ago covered. What both OS4 and MOS has to do is find some killer app and exploit it. Failing that, it's going to be a short year for atleast one comapny.
Just because you have lost all hope in a brighter future doesn't mean we have to too. Such negative waves! :-D
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Pish posh, the correct answer is: "Why not?"
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On Page 1 of this thread, NewRevolution Wrote:
Allright, I get the picture
Btw. Have you guys seen
THIS page? Plenty of ROMs.
Thanks for the link to an illegal pirate software site. Welcome back to the Amiga, just what we need second time round, pirates :-(
Please feel free to post some more links to pirated software. I'm sure what little developers are left out there welcome public postings of Pirate site - Real motivator for them to carry on.
:-(
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@NewRevolution
You´re not an AMiGAN, you´re a ####ed PeeCee guyz, like all the others.
AMiGA is not a "old nostalgia computer", AMiGA is the definitive computers, at leats for me, and ofr many peolpe on this site.
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the AmigaOne? I cant convince you of that (though I'm sure others could try I wont)... but the Pegasos/MOS I can make the argument that the OS is aimed at bieng modern and in the future will sport modern apps, the hardware will continue to evolve and the community will grow...I dont expect pegasos/mos to overtake windows or even the Linux market ...its aim is the geek/vertical market... I *hope* it thrives in its market...wich is special purpose or vertical computing (i.e STB's,Servers(someday?), etc)... and of course the geek element of its market wich is why we in this community like it I think it... I cannot explain *geek* to someone over the internet in text... its to complex but suffice to say it all boils down to 'why not? its FUN!" ... if ya cant grasp any of that... meditate and think of these objects (fun trick that might help ya) think of 'snow cones' 'AD&D" 'C64' and (recent addition) "PDA's with PalmOS/Linux on them" ... see what it canjurs up in your head...if its scary...go watch some football , buy a beer and try not to think at all its dangerous for you!... if ya like it... crack out your A1200 and play SuperFrog or go check out Aros for your PC :)
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Lwanmtr wrote:
Because, quite simply..Amiga has always been the best, and it still can do things that pc's and macs cannot.
I not only use a 4000t based flyer, but also a Dual 1ghz Mac, and I can do easier editing on it..and I can do live video switching..unlike Mac and premiere.
This is, of course, because the Toaster can do a lot of work in the 'analog' ('physical'?) domain, while on the Mac or most other solutions, you're stuck digitizing all your streams before you do anything - even basic switching has to occur in the 'virtual' domain.
Perhaps unfortunately, we're entering a world where it's digital from the camera (DV tape, Firewire) on through to the output medium (DVD, DTV), so the Toaster is like owning a really great Hasselblad, Mamiya or Leica - stunning, and capable of great art, but in a medium that's (wrongly!!) becoming even more outmoded than film.
Anyhow, the PowerPC does have a few inobvious benefits, which others have pointed out before. For one, if we *are* resuscitating the AmigaOS while trying to keep true to it, at least it shares the endianness, and a few other porting niceties. Someone once brought up a fairly big inobvious advantage in context-switching latency (something to do with which registers need to be flushed/reloaded when, but I can't recall what... little help?), and Altivec does tend to be an equalizer when considering performance vs. x86.
For the direction we've gone in, PowerPC probably is one of the better matches for what Hyperion is doing... If anything, MorphOS had a greater chance to break away from the 'expensive, underpowered' hardware, but they didn't, for many of the same reasons - endianness, some hope of compatibility/portability with existing Amiga PowerPC solutions, and of course, the teams that became Genesi have been in the hardware game even longer than our current AInc.
Look at it this way - the original Amiga had a 68000, then a pretty 'standard' alternative chip, selected by Apple, Atari, Tandy?!, and who knows how many others. As downtrodden as PowerPC's been recently, it's still the closest viable alternative (and makes sense over x86 for the above reasons). Meanwhile, it *would* be fairly impossible to create a competetive, groundbreaking systems architecture from scratch - you'd need the resources of an nVidia or ATI... to look at it another way, the commodity market has caught up and surpassed "Amiga" levels of performance. So, if you argue that all today's machines are practically Amigas - mindblowing graphics chips, 24-bit audio, PnP buses out the wazoo - that leaves one element left, the OS...
...and you've got two to choose from, plus AROS (on x86!) if that floats your boat. If you could care less, or are happier with Windows, Linux, BSD, Be, whatever... then by all means, use those instead; some of us just still want something more tuned to our sensibilities.
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Amiga is (I believe) old technology today. Can the Amiga OS compete with today?s advanced OS?s like Linux and Windows?
But no one's talking about "reviving" in the sense of re-bringing out existing old technology - it would be like asking who's going to bother about MacOS X, and then say how crap classic MacOS is.
What dose Amiga have to offer that will make AOS more attractive than other OS?s?
Things that I like including programming (toolkits such as MUI make it my favourite platform for application devlopment); some applications (I've yet to find a Windows email client that I prefer over YAM); and various features about AmigaOS (eg, datatypes - although that kind of comes under programming again).
I don't think the current market is bursting with choice when it comes to platforms or OSs, so I'm always happy to see new platforms appear. Especially ones that I'm already familiar, and know has the aforementioned features.
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The biggest reason for reviving the Amiga is as follows: Another open platform that is competitive.
Some people can't remember before Microsoft Office or MS-DOS. The world back then with computing was very new, there was a lot of room for small companies to come in and develop software and become big companies. Today if you do some imaging software you have to be "Adobe" to get noticed.
So why bother with re-imagining and re-inventing the Amiga. Simple, create a new software market for fanatical developers who don't have big money to compete with the Microsoft's or Adobes of the world. Give people a chance to come out with a new direction again for computing, one that anyone can afford to get started with.
The average developer pays Microsoft over $2000 a year for MSDN. CATS (Commodore Amiga Technical Support) never charged people for that knowledge of development or throttled the progress of new things being invented.
Right now if you are in the open source linux world it's getting mighty crowded and not that many new innovations are going to do something cool and new where are you gonna go?
Would you really have an opportunity in the PC market to become a "Tim Jennison" today? Probably not unless some major company bought you out.
The AmigaOne represents an opportunity not controlled by a major corporation a chance for your own manifest destiny..
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Why revive Amiga? :-?
Cause it's the Coolest computer/OS ever made on earth (don't know for the other planets ;-) )
Cause it have a real community behind it :-D
Cause despite it's 18 years old it is still pleasent and simple and fast to use :-)
Cause it's OS is still one of the smallest and powerfull and efficient OS ever if not THE one ;-)
Cause despite all it's lasts years of problems it has never died and IS still here to annoy it's detractors and faithfully serve it's admirators ;-)
Cause we LOVE it! :-)
Have I to continue? :-D
Amigalement,
Jean-François, Amiga ONLY since 1985.