Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: uncharted on June 10, 2003, 10:34:36 AM
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I wrote a pretty rousing speech this morning about basically how crap things are in the Amiga community at the moment after the weekend's thread started by Kronos.
It was a pretty good posting, but you'll have to take my word for it, just before I posted it, I realised it was pointless. No-one is bothered about the bigger picture, everyone is wrapped up in thier own agendas, in their own camps, and in thier own hero worshiping to notice anything sensible (also because it contained critism of certain members of Genesi, amoungst others it'd probably be deleted without explaination).
I'm sure there'd be about 10 people replying trying to lay the blame solely at Amiga Inc.'s door, 10 people trying to blame Genesi and 10 people brining up the subject of T shirts.
I've said it before it's all down to pride, no-one wants to admit they are wrong. People have gotten so blind around here to what THEY want to hear(and who they want to listen to), that no-one is really interested in the truth anymore. If its not from -Insert Camp here- they are not interested.
I could go on and on, but I'll just leave you with this one thought:-
So when will the Amiga community get it's dignity back?
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So when will the Amiga community get it's dignity back?
When we all stop feeding the trolls and declare an end to the petty in-fighting (I'm talking about MOS/OS4).
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I'm fed up of it to.
All the flame fests.
All the slagging off.
Once we all shared a common interest "Amiga", but due to the well document bankruptcy etc.... well we all know the story.
Those who did not beleive their would be another Amiga after gateway went their way and those who thought Fleecy and Bill could do some good went theirs.
3 years on we all hang on to the one thing we all had in common once "Amiga" But now its a tug of war of those who think they know best.
We are left with two "main" choices for the future.
Amiga One / OS4 & Pegasos / MOS
So I wish people would be allowed to make their mind up with out all the FUD slinging.
I've made my choice and I'm happy with.
Wayne has made his choice too and he's happy.
What is annoying is those that have made their mind up, telling me I've bought a bug ridden pile of S#!+, based upon one persons posting somewhere.
So please let it end and lets all just get on.
Discussion is great, thats why we come here.
But to come here daily and see another morphos v amigaos thread started. Its makes you sigh!!!
Please let the madness end.
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your probably completely right... the bigger picture is we look like a bunch of idiots as a whole 'who are these nutcases' most people probably say...but until things get kick started off for one of the camps things will keep up like this...
I think Peg2 should rocket Genesi out of this community ( I should say when I mean 'out' I mean that a community more sizeable then this should emerge around the Peg2 and therefore superceed this one) and take a sizeable number of app developers along for the ride...if my theory pans out this time next year the amiga community 'amiga' mind you...will be even smaller... with alot less application developers.. thats my opinon anyway...but then there is the flip side of that... that alot of people will come back...remember the name 'amiga' and maybe jumpship over to amigaone/OS4... who knows... sure will be interesting..
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I've said it before it's all down to pride, no-one wants to admit they are wrong.
It's simple psychology. Let me show it with cars, type A, and M.
Customer one and Customer two are used to be friends, had the same kind of car before. Now they devoted themselves to two different models from different vendors.
Practically, both will have four wheels, headlights, etc. The two has the same engine and transmission system even
Both Car A and Car B is out on the street. You got the wheels, the engine, the transmission. Yet for Car A the driving wheel, the seats are still in development, while for Car B you regularly check back to the Service to receive the round driving wheel instead of the initial square like, to get the new seat covers, window glasses instead of the tinfoil you had.
Not only customer one and two will never admit that not everything is perfect (as the cars are much faster than their previous cars), the vendors will make everything to stop the other from happening.
Vendor A will endlessly repeat it will be ready in two weeks, stopping those hesitating going for car M, and keeping them in an endless waiting cycle, which one day will come to an end.
Meanwhile, Vendor M will endlessly repeat that car A will never be completed, making those hesitating to be more uncertain, maybe falling for car M.
Maybe I could add, that both Customer one and two had Car A before, just some other firm purchased the factory, at first promising to abandon cars and manufacturing rollerblades instead, but things like that are biased and may ruin the picture :-)
Feel free to add corrections :-)
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Recently I got pretty wound up and took part in a rant...
It was good to get it out of my system I guess, but really I wish I hadn't bothered. I don't even know how I managed to get so pissed off in the first place. It's stupid. And the only effect my comments had, if any, was to upset a few people, and that is never my intention.
So, I'm gonna make sure that from now on I only submit helpful or constructive posts... If I feel myself getting wound, I'll just switch off and do something else... Simple :-)
I agree that everyone should stop fighting. I'm not saying get on and work together, but that would be nice too. Remember why we are all here in the first place.
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Sometimes I write a rant piece, then go back over it and tweak the expression, the language, the snide remarks towards others. Finally I cancel the post altogether because, although it's a masterpiece of wit and innuendo, it'll only antagonise people further.
And anyway, just writing it seems to be enough.
tony
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@uncharted
Whining about the situation surely won't make it better.
Since I first read about the Amiga vs. Genesi dispute I realised that it was the beginning of an endless discussion about which system was the best, who's telling the truth, accusations etc.
It suprises me if you haven't realised that before.
Be positive, buy (or don't buy) whatever system you like and don't care about all the FUD thats around.
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@Warface
what happens if one of the makers is going out of business,lying, and telling nonsense to their customers to keep them loyal to their sinking ship?... what then?
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also because it contained critism of certain members of Genesi, amoungst others it'd probably be deleted without explaination
Do you simply go out of your way to insult me, or does it come naturally?
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meerschaum wrote:
@Warface
what happens if one of the makers is going out of business,lying, and telling nonsense to their customers to keep them loyal to their sinking ship?... what then?
Leave them alone to stayup/sink with the ship in silence?
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meerschaum wrote:
@Warface
what happens if ....?
If who ? Gensi or Amiga. You have pointed the finger in your thread, so we go full circle and another thread spirals down hill.
People just cant help them selves can they!
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Well, IMHO the last thing this small "community" needs is to fragment, but that's exactly what is happenning with MOS/OS4/AROS. This isn't to say that one "faction" is better than the other, just that it semes a strange way of going. It could even kill this platform completely.
With a little more co-operation and a little less idiocy, we might find a way to co-exist to each other's mutual benefit. The one thing that is driving to the point of leaving the scene altogether is the stupid, petty and bloody immature trolling/flaming/etc. We're all making ourselves a laughing stock.
This is why you get total knobs like "Funeral" posting here.
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@PMC
I agree. who the hell is going to want to join this.
In effect we have a form of racism starting.
Black White
Blue Red
Call it what you want. Its got to end as its getting out of control.
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So let me get this straight. You wrote a really long rant. You realized everyone would not immediately agree with everything you say. You deleted the rant.
Then you wrote another rant in its place about how people don't immediately agree with everything you say.
hmmmm
WOW
WOW
I've got to digest this, but suddenly the ranting world has opened up a whole new range of possibilities...its as if all these years I've been ranting, I've been blind...blind I tell you......
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@PMC
The community is already fragmented. I think that it's way too much bad blood between the two parties to work out their differences. Many people haven't recognised it yet, but the "damage" is already done.
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p.s.
you all are completely wrong. It's the competition between AOS 4, Genesi, and AROS that has saved this community.
Without competition, we have stagnation.
You really think it would have been interesting day after day after day, talking about Amiga, Inc....who for 3 years, just waiting on OS 4, which isn't even in public beta yet?
We needed the other influences, both to light a fire under Amiga, INc. who otherwise wouldn't have cared....and thats a fact, sorry you don't believe it...and also, just to have other products released and things to look at and discuss during this period of inactivity of Amiga, Inc.
Yes, they will introduce OS 4 someday, but thats someday in the future, for the past 3 years, we've mostly had nothing.
And yet the community is thriving. You may have trouble tolerating other opinions, and you describe healthy debate as 'racism' which shows you know nothing both about healthy debate and about racism.
What we have is good, there will always be strong personalities in the world, if you can't deal with it, you can't deal with life.
<----your always humble servant MarkTime
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talking about what to do and where to go is constructive.
getting mad at people who disagree with you is boring and a waste of time.
if people want to get something done, then go and do it! stop whining.
talk is cheap.
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I have always advocated cooperation between all the "factions".
It is my wish that all AmigaOS compatible systems remain.. well... compatible, in both Software and Hardware.
MOS and AROS have been able to cooperate, and thus our systems should, in theory at least, be compatible to some degree on the same hardware.
But it would have been nice to create an "open" standard from which we can all pool our resources and create one uber system.
Still politics, comercial interests and the need to make huge sums of money abound... :-(
-Edit- IMHO MarkTime is quite right, MOS and AROS made AInc sit up and take notice. I remember when they planned to end "AmigaOS" with the Classic line... The others (AROS, MOS and PowerOS) came along and AInc did a U-Turn... not the first or the last mind...
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I want everyone to do well competition and choice are good things . :-)
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Well, I think it'd be really nice if most software made for Amigic OSes was available for all 3. They are rather similiar, and it'd promote a lot of healthy competition between the 3 OS developers (although I don't think AROS wants to compete, but to simply be a there and functioning choice) . They are all the Amiga platform to an extent. There will always be the fact that OS A has feature X whereas OS B has feature Y. That's good, it mean people get to choose what they want. The whole idea behind people buying Apple computers, or purchasing Linux, or even using Amigas, OS/2, Rhapsody or BeOS, is that they get to choose and still have a fully functional system, one that they like. The most fun way of going about computing is not becoming 'The OS of All Time' it's getting several OSes healthy and competing, which is why I always felt that the early nineties, mid/late eighties had it right when it came to computers, relatively powerful and advanced systems (you couldn't make them in a garage) and lots of choice, you'd have full functionality on a number of systems. I really don't care if you support OS4, or MOS, or AROS. They are all nice, I want every one of them to be able to do everything someone would want out of an Operating System. Let us realize that in the amiga's (the original) current state we are no where. There's no telling if any of the three emerging choices will ever be popular. It's important for the community to work together, making community work available on all the platforms, so that whoever wins, whatever it is called , we'll have an Amiga at the end of day.
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@zudobug
Recently I got pretty wound up and took part in a rant...
It was good to get it out of my system I guess, but really I wish I hadn't bothered. I don't even know how I managed to get so pissed off in the first place. It's stupid. And the only effect my comments had, if any, was to upset a few people, and that is never my intention.
Try doing what I do in those situations.. I write up a reply, preview it, and then walk away from the computer for a bit. Usually, when I come back to the computer, I've cooled off enough not to want to post anymore.
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I have absolutely no problem with competition as competition usually breeds innovation. However, don't forget that the Amiga market is very small right now, an the in-fighting will put new usuers off. The problem is that people will be confused between OS4 and MOS, and will decide on another platform.
There comes a point in a small pond where there simply isn't room for more than one fish. Both factions, communites etc - call them what you will have their merits and it would be good to see them compliment each other rather than split the fragile Amiga community up.
If only we could have the best of both worlds - the innovation, the HEALTHY competition and the freedom of choice. Instead we have people trolling and zealots all trying to make a point and they're dragging everyone else down in the process.
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Did somebody mention T-Shirts ??
@uncharted
You have a point, but consider that most people here are trying to make the best of it here, and are not trolling but keep quiet (There are more unregistered users online at a time then registered).
Some do care for the "one big happy family" we were suppose to be long long ago (I don't think we were that, it's just more obvious (sp) that we're not, remember that in the Amiga's prime years Internet wasn't as big as it is now).
Some people are here to help others, some are here for their own agenda, some just want help.
So when will the Amiga community get it's dignity back?
Someday when either all Amiga wannabees (Amiga OS4, MorphOS, Aros) have a reasonable userbase and each one going into each direction, or when there are only 2 or less contenders left... Someday we will remeber the Amiga Contending Wars (Amiga OS vs MorphOS with Aros in the middle) just like we remember the Amiga vs ST War and the Amiga vs the console war.
Most people here have grown up. Were in their early teens when they got their first Amiga and are now 30 something.. We've seen the rise and fall of the C= Empire. The demise of the Amiga. We are close to a rebirth, but it has been to long for some to be nice to people who think different...
If you're not with us, you're against us.. To bad we all want the same thing.. An good Amiga like OS, be it AmigaOS, MorphOs or Aros, but because they have the same goal, they are each others nemesis..
(I've included Aros here as well as it's getting a darn good OS for X86 and might dent the sales of AOS and MOS.. Hell, we waited for years, why not wait for another to get AOS on X86 before AOS5 comes around ?)
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seer wrote:
(I've included Aros here as well as it's getting a darn good OS for X86 and might dent the sales of AOS and MOS.. Hell, we waited for years, why not wait for another to get AOS on X86 before AOS5 comes around ?)
Hmmm, we can only hope :-)
But AROS for more than just x86...
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Wayne wrote:
also because it contained critism of certain members of Genesi, amoungst others it'd probably be deleted without explaination
Do you simply go out of your way to insult me, or does it come naturally?
I'm sorry, can you point to out instances of where I have insulted you? You make it sound like I'm forever putting you down/shitting on your work here at Amiga.org, which is clearly not the case.
The fact is the other week I confronted a Genesi employee about - well lets not mince words here - being a two faced ####### and behaving like a kiddie to please the crowds.
This thread mysteriously disapeared without any explanation.
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MarkTime wrote:
So let me get this straight. You wrote a really long rant. You realized everyone would not immediately agree with everything you say. You deleted the rant.
Then you wrote another rant in its place about how people don't immediately agree with everything you say.
I never said anything about people dissagreeing with me, I was talking about the fact that most people are too wrapped up in thier own agendas to take notice.
Really thinking about it this rant's is as useless as the first, nothing is going to change (even though as shown by the postings on here, people want it to). Sometimes you just need to outlet.
But lets be honest here, you (by your own admission)love trolling anyway, so it doen't make a blind bit of difference.
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@Marktime
you all are completely wrong. It's the competition between AOS 4, Genesi, and AROS that has saved this community.
Sure, but that's competition between companies, not end users.. This fighting between end users is pointless... Besides, the fighting between the CEO's is pointless as well.. The battle should be fought with good PR (Both sides suck at this) and independed reviews (That reminds me, Wayne ? Your Peg up and running ?)
Some time ago somebody suggested that AOS lovers and MOS lovers would come together during a show and let them fight it out with foam (?) bats ;-).. I still think some of those should have done that..
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cecilia wrote:
talking about what to do and where to go is constructive.
getting mad at people who disagree with you is boring and a waste of time.
if people want to get something done, then go and do it! stop whining.
talk is cheap.
I'd agree with that sentiment, which is why I AM actively involved in community based things, and hopefully will be involved with some more soon.
The point is at the end of the day is even with everything I can do it still won't change the attitude of the community, only the community itself can do it. I just posted here because I'm frustrated with that.
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MarkTime wrote:
p.s.
you all are completely wrong. It's the competition between AOS 4, Genesi, and AROS that has saved this community.
Without competition, we have stagnation.
I agree with this, however that isn't what I'm talking about. I don't want a single amiga comapany, I want options. I just don't want my options to behave like children arguing over who has the coolest bike.
In the real world businesses can be competitive without the crap we witness here.
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bloodline wrote:
I have always advocated cooperation between all the "factions".
It is my wish that all AmigaOS compatible systems remain.. well... compatible, in both Software and Hardware.
MOS and AROS have been able to cooperate, and thus our systems should, in theory at least, be compatible to some degree on the same hardware.
But it would have been nice to create an "open" standard from which we can all pool our resources and create one uber system.
Still politics, comercial interests and the need to make huge sums of money abound... :-(
As I've just said, I'm not after everyone involved holding hands or having group hugs. That opportunity has well and truely past, and probably wouldn't be in the best interest of the community.
I just want to see there being some agreement, not to bitch about each other constantly. It should be the products doing the talking.
I'd also like to see each OS available for all currently available hardware (obviously I'm talking PPC only here with the exception of AROS), this would give true choice to the customer.
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seer wrote:
Sure, but that's competition between companies, not end users.. This fighting between end users is pointless... Besides, the fighting between the CEO's is pointless as well.. The battle should be fought with good PR (Both sides suck at this) and independed reviews (That reminds me, Wayne ? Your Peg up and running ?)
I wish I could of put it as well as you have. You've hit the nail on the head. yes compitition is healthy, but the RIGHT kind of compitition. If compitition in the Amiga market meant lower prices, better features, more support, greater reliabilty then great. But what we get is bitching, backstabbing, and rivalries and feuds that have lasted over 5 years. How does that benefit me? (or any other user)
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I wish I could of put it as well as you have.
You're welcome.. I'm sorry you didn't post your intended message tho..
But what we get is bitching, backstabbing, and rivalries and feuds that have lasted over 5 years.
Yes. To be honest, I couldn't care less that the end users are doing this. It's what I want and/or can get, not what another user wants me to get..
What does bother me is the "disgusting" (by lack of a better word) FUDding and namecalling between al companies involved..
Ah well.. Welcome in the wonderfull "World of Amiga" (Remember that ?)
How does that benefit me? (or any other user)
It doesn't. Simple as that.. I know a few people who won't buy anything from either side because of their stance towards each other and to some users that are online..
Reason ? If a CEO can't even be polite to a rival CEO or a user/customer (Even if the user/customer is isn't a nice chap), how "rude" is it's customer service going to be if I ever need them ?
--Edit--
But hey, what's 2 users in this market ?
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No-one is bothered about the bigger picture, everyone is wrapped up in thier own agendas, in their own camps, and in thier own hero worshiping to notice anything sensible
he he. the few and the many.
I don't think everybody is all wraped up like that. I know it had no intention in stereotyping everybody, but I hope that others will nod agreeingly when I say that we would just like an alternative to what is established computing and we would like to get some business support for this alternative.
Is it too much to ask for, to get an os that is not bogged down by greedy ceo's or total and utter chaos in its development?
Since when did we just had to accept that most commercial code is crap?
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-Edit- IMHO MarkTime is quite right, MOS and AROS made AInc sit up and take notice. I remember when they planned to end "AmigaOS" with the Classic line... The others (AROS, MOS and PowerOS) came along and AInc did a U-Turn... not the first or the last mind...
I remember on the Amiga irc net that fleecy or Bill had said that they won`t develop AmigaOS 4.0 unless AmigaOS 3.9 wouldn`t sell 50.000 copies.
I bet they didn`t have any intention of spending a cent for AmigaOS and they wanted just its userland for the Tao system they had licenced.
Then they didn`t have a choice so they let Hyperion develop further AmigaOS.
Well it would be very nice seeing AmigaDE on AmigaOS like other OSes have JavaVM, not replacing it.
I was very happy that MorphOS team would continue our beloved OS and it wouldn`t end with 3.9 because the new admins wanted to sell DE.
But now the plans have changed and AmigaOS will be out soon.
But it would have been nice to create an "open" standard from which we can all pool our resources and create one uber system.
We have the AmigaOS 3.x as a common API :-) it would be nice to have some more standards fot the new features these 3 AmigaOS will have.
That way it will be very easy for the developers to port their apps. Each OS will be benefited by that.
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Perhaps it's time for a divorce?
Let's face it, how can either side survive so long as the "community" is so bitter and dysfunctional?
To survive we have to attract outsiders to our preferred platforms but how many outsiders are going to be keen on joining either faction so long as this atmosphere of distrust and hate continues?
Genesi continually express they have no interest in the Amiga brandname and as such supporters of Genesi should honour Genesi by establishing a dedicated MorphOS community totally separate from the Amiga brandname.
BLASPHEMY!
Wait... think about it for a second. Surely making a name for yourself based on your own efforts is more appealing and rewarding than cashing in on an allegedly defunct brand? Wow... just imagine, if Genesi succeed, you can stand up smugly and say "We did it all by ourselves"
Meanwhile, the AmigaOS band walk away with the Amiga name (which, after all, Genesi has no interest in) leaving Amiga to either sink or swim purely on it's own merits.
And we all live happily ever after...
but...
... We all know that's utter BS.
Genesi want the Amiga name and they want it at all costs and both they and their supporters know that without some kind of link to the Amiga name MorphOS is as dead as a crispy peking duck in a chinese restaurant.
After all, that's why the MorphOS supporters are the biggest name followers of all. If the name didn't matter, they'd have left the Amiga sites years ago and tried to stand on their own two feet but, alas, the baby is still crawling.
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So when will the Amiga community get it's dignity back?
itll take some time ;-)
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So when will the Amiga community get it's dignity back?
When it gets rid of useless do-nothing companies, name followers, FUD spreaders, greedy businessmen, blind followers, lying companies, trolls, hypocritical PC users who haven't owned an Amiga for years who still want to complain about the current state of the system, companies with awful customer support, the mid-90s attitude to progress, pirates, crappy PR, crackers of shareware, "ROMs" beggers, whiners, hackers, virus writers, apologists for any of the above, and general lamers.
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Ich hoffe nur das AOS4 auf Pegasos laufen wird, da ich diesen schnuckeliger finde als das Teron-Board.
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@uncharted
"When will the Amiga Community get it's dignity back?"
Never lost mine bubba, Been with the Amiga since '85 or '86, can't remember exactly. Always thought it was great, ever if everyone else was blind. AInc could fold, and the rest of 'em could fold too. I'd still be here having fun with my A2000. Appreciate something for what it is, not for what you wish it could be. Regards
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@kennyr
Damn, try breathin' into a paper bag.. see if that helps. Just kiddin'! :-D :-D :-D
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@Uncharted:
Your point sounds more and more like "you are all biased, except me"... Hope you are aware of your own agendas and bias. Expressed even in the first post, claiming an end for this... :-)
Those who are unaware of their own bias are the most dangerous.
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@seer:
Some time ago somebody suggested that AOS lovers and MOS lovers would come together during a show and let them fight it out with foam (?) bats .. I still think some of those should have done that..
hahahah! I am all for that. You better fear me when I enter the battle frenzy with my blunt, black, heavy, two-handed rubber-sword!
Sincerely,
-Kenneth Straarup.