Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: amigamad on June 09, 2003, 08:39:58 PM
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Is anyone else bored of these arguments i myself want both systems to do well .Or is it fun and constructive to keep on with these types of arguments and put people who are involved in both platforms and operating systems down all the time . :-o :-? :-? :-( :-)
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yes.
So we'll end this.. here?
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:-)
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Fine by me. They both sound like rather nice operating systems to me.
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So we'll end this.. here?
I hope so :-D
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totally agree..
they both need a lot of work so who even cares?
just an impartial observation that any potential outside customer would make..
keep the development going!! things are finally starting to look interesting!
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Flame bait subject... anyway, the Amiga Market needs this kind of competition. Without it the market will stagnate.
CoughAROSCough
night night :-D
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i just want to know the technical scientific differences between them
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i just want to know the technical scientific differences between them
Simply
Morphos is a rewrite that is backwards compatible
Amiga OS 4 is a port (with new stuff)
It is pointless to go farther then that due to
a) Lack of info on OS 4
b) MorphOS is currently in public beta
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b) MorphOS is currently in public beta
im pretty sure it has been fully released
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@iamaboringperson,
TO begin with, I am behind the MorphOS camp, so this is as I see things. This also means I do not see a grander picture for AOS4, using only the demonstrated segments and the whitepapers to judge from. So, let's start from the bottom:
The problem is that the AmigaOS API's, while nice, are also unstable: a single errant program can kill the whole setup.
MorphOS is based on the premice of keeping these legacy API's safely away from the core of the system, in order to prevent it from taking down the whole system. With MorphOS putting these API's into a lock-box, if an errant program does go awry, the system can kill the whole box off and keep the rest of the programs running smoothly. This works in much the same manner as WinOS/2 or Mac OSX's classic compatability mode.
AmigaOS4, by comparison, is trying to have it's cake and eat it too, by integrating new, safe, API's alongside the older, unsafe, API's. I am not assured that this approach will work, as shown by the repeated failed attempts to do the same thing with MacOS before they abandoned the concept and went with the same approach as MorphOS.
That's just from the basic principle on how they work, mind you.
As for more concrete:
MorphOS's GUI, Ambient, is built directly on top of CyberGFX and is built up using MUI.
AmigaOS's GUI, Workbench, is still based on Intuition and the legacy widgets for core operations.
MorphOS, by building a full version of MUI into the system, provides a consistant level of programmability from the top to the bottom.
AmigaOS, by comparison, not only includes the legacy workbench material, but also includes ReAction and a shareware form of MUI, which means it has more availible applications but no guarantee of consistant operation between them.
MorphOS runs on both legacy PPC cards for the Amiga and a next generation PPC platform, the Pegasos. The Pegasos version is more advanced, but the ones for the classic Amiga still are under development and have a public beta availible.
AmigaOS 4 at this time, only runs on the Cyberstorm PPC. Plans for the AmigaONE and BlizzardPPC are forthcoming, but nothing is in a demonstratable form at this time.
MorphOS utilizes a hardware abstraction layer in order to help get rid of the legacy hardware dependence when not on the Amiga hardware. This is called Open Firmware, and is an industrial standard HAL found in mainframes, workstations, and even your local iMac.
AmigaOS's plans for moving off of the classic Amiga hardware involve using a Linux boot-strapping BIOS called uBoot, which was engineered for embedded motherboards (like those found in your microwave or DVD player). AmigaOS4's main authors helped to port this to the AmigaONE.
MorphOS includes registered versions of software such as a web browser, e-mail, MUI, etc.
AmigaOS4 includes much shareware, including the widget set MUI needed for it's shareware browser, IBrowse.
That's all I can think of off the top of my head. Feel free to flame and nit-pick this appart. But remember, this is from my personal POV, and do recall that I am biased to the OS that I can use today.
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b) MorphOS is currently in public beta
Beta implies pre-version 1.0
MorphOS is in version 1.3.
Anything else?
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from what you wrote, it seems that mui lovers will be more happy with mos than mui haters ;-)
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Well, here's my comparison:
One company got over $50,000 from the community
as a show of faith, delivered nothing, and is currently
auctioning its assets off while telling us everything is fine.
The other actually has a product. Unstable, or pathetic as it may be, they never promised me anything if I sent them $50.
I dont know about any of you, but I dont exactly
wipe my butt on $50 bills- so OS4 is not even a valid
subject of discussion in my book until something
is delivered from these people. Lifetime amiga club membership my ass. It's been a year since they
whipped out that lie, and STILL nothing... NOT EVEN A FREAKIN TSHIRT. They damned sure claimed the Paypal transactions, though.
So, in essence, dont bother mentioning AINC's vaporware, and nobody gets flamed. Real easy.
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better take another look at that AROS ;-)
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@huronking
If you really need a t-shirt that badly, would an XL do? I think I've got one or two left here.
(I'm sitting here picturing huronking sitting there freezing in a boat somewhere in lake huron, going "Damnit, I need that T-shirt!")
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Look all I'm saying is that MorphOS is in a beta like state right now and hopefully 1.4 will solve most if not all the problems with 1.3 like floppy support.
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Floppy support is the least important thing right now. Floppies are dead. MOS will probably never support them - the catweasel is there for them and does the job *much* better anyway.
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downix wrote:
b) MorphOS is currently in public beta
Beta implies pre-version 1.0
MorphOS is in version 1.3.
Anything else?
Have to disagree with you here.. Beta status is not defined by some semirandom version number, it's about product readiness.
But in case of complex system (like OS + tools) it's difficult to define.. I'd say partially yes and prtially no, but I'll think it's better to stick what Genesi consideres accurate.
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MOS will probably never support them - the catweasel is there for them and does the job *much* better anyway.
Great so people that buy the Pegasos will have a place to plug in their floppy on the mother board but to get it to work with MorphOS you got to buy catweasle.
If that is the case I hope USB floppy drives would be a work around.
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Psy wrote:
MOS will probably never support them - the catweasel is there for them and does the job *much* better anyway.
Great so people that buy the Pegasos will have a place to plug in their floppy on the mother board but to get it to work with MorphOS you got to buy catweasle.
If that is the case I hope USB floppy drives would be a work around.
Well.. those Usb-drives don't work on Amiga disks either so most important point on having diskette drive is moot anyhow. It's much easier and faster to transfer data using network or USB-memory-module than floppies anyhow.
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But floppies are still by far the cheapest solution for small data transfer. If I want to say take my Resume since it can fit on a disk and a disk can easily fit in my pocket and a disk is dirt cheap I would put it on a disk and not bother with CDRW or USB-memory-modules since then if lets say I want to give the disk to someone I really don't care if they give it back to me or not while with a CDRW or USB-memory-module I would.
This is why some Mac users use USB floppy drives.
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If that is the case I hope USB floppy drives would be a work around.
or a USB zip drive! :-o
why floppy? why do people in the year 2003 care about wether their floppy disks will work or not?? :crazy:
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why floppy? why do people in the year 2003 care about wether their floppy disks will work or not??
Becouse they are the cheapest media. The floppy is so cheap I can use it once and throw it away and not care just pull out another freash one since the days of recycling disketts are over due to their cheapness.
No other medium (besides tape) is as cheap as disketts.
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Psy
:lol:
you must have very small data if you think that ;-)
if you want to transfer hundreds of megs, what do you use, floppy disk? backup tape??
screw that for a joke. per megabyte ZIP is much cheaper than floppy
The floppy is so cheap I can use it once and throw it away
writable CD's are a cheaper method of write-once-throwaway![tm]
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Yes if it is is more then a few megs of course floppy is no longer a efficent option. Yet if all you need to do is send say a PDF of less then a meg to someone outside the network it is simple matter of copying it to the floppy putting a lable on it, move or take out the write protection tab then just find the person in question and finally fling it at them (or if you are more polite hand it to them).
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id rather have a zip drive than FDD&zip...
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I haven't used a floppy disk on a PC for about five years. And that's what the floppy drive is on a Pegasos and A1 - a PC drive. With a maximum of 1.44MB, what exactly can you fit on it? I might want to read my Amiga disks now and again for emulator purposes, but the floppy controller on A1 and Pegasos is useless for that anyway. A catweasel would still be needed. All my data transfer these days is on CDRW or via the internet. Floppy disk is almost totally useless to me.
It comes down to this. Development time is precious. I'd rather see it spent on improving parts of MOS that are useful rather than bits nobody ever uses.
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Indeed floppy is far the best and most perfect solution for transfer,
I am so ********* *** ***** tired of swapping harddrives and burning
cds and even emailing myself every time i need any tiny little file,
that floppy support should be there ASAP.
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I used to be very anti-MorphOS. This is mainly due to being totally
unimpressed with the 0.3 beta for the CSPPC hardware. My opinion has
changed of late now that the Pegasos is out. I have been reading the
reviews and it really sounds like the Pegasos/MorphOS is a very good
system. Not to mention that the screenshots that I have been seeing
look beautiful!
The MorphOS camp does have alot going for it currently. The sofware
they give you are full versions. They have been making big deals with
software developers. They look like they are delivering on their
promises. Most of all they have a PRODUCT that one can BUY.
I am still have concerns about MorphOS. I wonder how long MorphOS
will stay close to the Amiga platform both in software compatibility
and in philosophy. I not sure on how to refer to the platform. Is
it Pegasos? Is it MorphOS? Is it Phoenix? I'm still alittle angry
because when MorphOS came on the scene, everybody quit developing
WarpOS software so my PPC sofware library is not growing anymore.
I still consider myself an Amiga guy and I still await the day that I
can buy an AmigaOne with AmigaOS 4.0. I hope it is soon because my
current hardware has a foot in the grave and I don't know how long it
can hold out. However, Pegasos/MorphOS is looking better all the
time.
I do have a semi-related question about MorphOS. Does it use the RDB
standard? I only ask because I recently read a review about the USB
Zip drive on Pegasos/MorphOS and the author wrote about using
mountlists and formatting disks with FAT95. It is certainly less
transparent than by current SCSI drive with RDB formatted disks.
--Aaron Diezman
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honestly: if i could save 50c not having the FDD connector on the MB, i would buy a pegasos or amigaone with out it :-P
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id rather have a zip drive than FDD&zip...
I know where you comming from, losing my ablity to burn would be much more of a problem then losing my ablity to use a floppy but having to switch to Linux just to use the floppy would be of some inconvenience.
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Indeed floppy is far the best and most perfect solution for transfer,I am so ********* *** ***** tired of swapping harddrives and burning cds and even emailing myself every time i need any tiny little file,that floppy support should be there ASAP.
That's what I'm talking about but if it is that much of a problem you know you could network a PC to the it, not a great solution but I put my 486/80 on my home network to get information from 5 1/4 floppies to my other computers.
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Just this morning my 7-year-old son picked a floppy disk up off the floor (OK, I'm kinda sloppy.) and asked "What's this?" I'm not sure if it was the disk itself he was asking about or the contents. But we don't use floppies anymore either. Actually to transfer little bits of data, if it's on the network I use that. Otherwise I use a digicam (memory stick) via USB. This is on Windows. If MOS and AOS had transparent support for USB memory, it'd be great. The sticks (and probably other memory cards as well) just show up as a disk; couldn't be easier.
-- gary_c
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About the floppy support mentioned here. I too think it's one of those "features" I will never miss. Everything can be transferred using usb memory, zip-disk, network or a cd.
As for the mention about MOS being in beta-stage. Yes it is. One thing I hope will unite OS4 and MOS though, here is a cut from Magnetic's Pegasos/MOS review:
>"It took some tweaking to get some the programs I have installed but once I did it seemed even MORE stable than my real Amiga"
I couldn't agree more. Pegasos/MOS is far more stable than my real Amiga(s), as unbelievable as it may sound. Hope to see such behaviour on A1/OS4 compo aswell.
As in the end, there is so much good software written for 68k or classic ppc that I couldn't live without with.
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nahhh... I really dont need one, and I'm really not that venemous towards AInc... the mood just hit me and I vented. I'm feeling better now, so I hope I didnt piss EVERYBODY off.
Where is the xanax when you need it?
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About the floppy support mentioned here. I too think it's one of those "features" I will never miss. Everything can be transferred using usb memory, zip-disk, network or a cd.
Not really I do run into PCs with no USB ports and no Zip-disk just a floppy drive and a CD drive.
To copy a few K (I mostly use 720K Disketts since they all I need to move small bits of data) it is a waste for CDs thus floppy is the only logical way to send data to older PCs.
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I wrote the zip review thing, and I really think the issue was with what Poseidon is trying to do. The zipdisk falls under the catagory of "Mass Storage Device," which has some default settings geared towards reading PC formatted hardware.
I'm sure it could be changed, but when those settings are changed, it is universal (AFAIK). This is for the Mass Storage Device in Poseidon, and would likely hold true for real os3.x Amigas as well. I don't think it is a bug in Posiedon either, but a choice that had to be made. To my understanding regular (IDE or SCSI) zip drives should work on a Pegasos with MorphOS as they would under a native Amiga.
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the Pegasos's Openfirmware is able to handle Amiga RDB. I boot with that feature everyday.
MorphOS rocks !
Bye
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@Psy
Yes of course you're right. I don't have USB's in three of my work computers either. Majority do though. And all my computers at home has usb, except for Amiga. I don't say the floppy support is useless, but at the moment there are lot more important things than that.
As for wasting cd's, why not make multisessions? Should save you a few dimes... not that it's not an issue, a cd-r costs around 0.60€
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About MorphOS being beta, this is how I see it.
There's MorphOS beta out there, namely version 1.4.
Version 1.3 however, is "final" 1.3 release, wouldn't call it beta.
And when 1.4 will be released to all users, there will be 1.5 beta etc
This is how software development works in most cases, and if you ask
me, that's how it should be.
There's alwaysstabile release, and potentially unstabile beta release.
In MorphOS's case, that beta just isn't available foe everyone.
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@Targhan
I'm sure it could be changed, but when those settings are changed, it is universal (AFAIK). This is for the Mass Storage Device in Poseidon, and would likely hold true for real os3.x Amigas as well. I don't think it is a bug in Posiedon either, but a choice that had to be made. To my understanding regular (IDE or SCSI) zip drives should work on a Pegasos with MorphOS as they would under a native Amiga.
I think you should be able to configure the device seperately and those settings are only for that device. In other words, configuring the class is universal while configuring the device is not.
(Haven't tried it as the two devices I use need to be accessed on both my PC and Peg.)
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my 0.2:
AmigaOS4.0 does not exist for end users.
MorphOS1.3 exists for "advanced users".
AmigaOS3.9 is the most complete existing Amiga(like) OS release.
AOS3.9 vs MOS1.3:
AOS is more complete while MOS is a lot faster because it is in native PPC code. And MOS have some unigue extra features when compared to AOS3.9.
If PPC native AOS4 will contain all AOS3.9 bits and pieces + something new when it's released, it should be a winner.... IF it is released soon... U C MOS is not standing still.
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MOS exists for those willing to accept the product in beta state.
1.4 should be interesting.
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@Psy
Yes of course you're right. I don't have USB's in three of my work computers either. Majority do though. And all my computers at home has usb, except for Amiga. I don't say the floppy support is useless, but at the moment there are lot more important things than that.
Yhea I agree there are more important things in MorphOS to do but floppy is still the standard for small data transfer (even though devlopment stoped like Sega's 3 inch (yes 3 inch half a inch smaller) drive in the 80's and the 2.88 MB)
Yes catwealse fixes the problem and adds Amiga floppy support. Yet I've stoped using Amiga disketts besides the ones I for Classic hardware as Amiga disketts don't exactly work on PCs or Macs making Amiga disketts uselss for transfer except to other Amigas.
As for wasting cd's, why not make multisessions? Should save you a few dimes... not that it's not an issue, a cd-r costs around 0.60€
I just find it a waste to load up a burning program for less then a meg. Yes CDs are cheap but Disketts are still cheaper, I can get 720K disketts for FREE so hard to beat.
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Indeed floppy is far the best and most perfect solution for transfer,
I am so ********* *** ***** tired of swapping harddrives and burning
cds and even emailing myself every time i need any tiny little file,
that floppy support should be there ASAP.
Oh come on, what do you transfer, text files? Of all the MOS owners I know, absolutely none of them is interested in floppy support. To transfer big files you'd need to archive and span, which is even more trouble than burning a CD.
At 1.44MB a disk at 21KB/S (crunch crunch), we view pretty much view the floppy disk the same as the audio tape - dead, dead, DEAD. We simply do not want the MOS developers to waste their time on it when MOS needs so many real things.
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Floppy drives on computers dont have much use on the pc i use it for bios upgrades i could make a cd that boots and has the bios and bios flash software but my board has bios flashing software buit in you hold a key at bootup it can only read from floppy which is a shame.I would prefer to use a usb key or compact flash card as these are very small .on an amiga you need them otherwise you wont be able to install some software.and floppys dont always last long if they are not looked after. :-)
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Oh come on, what do you transfer, text files? Of all the MOS owners I know, absolutely none of them is interested in floppy support. To transfer big files you'd need to archive and span, which is even more trouble than burning a CD.
A directory of a project on my HD : 3 Word files + 11 jpegs + 1 PDF = 464k
Another of directory of the same project: 2 Word files + 15 jpegs + 1 text file + 2 PDFs = 542k
I could put a either onto a 720k disk since each is a part and conatinas everything I need to work on said part or put both on a single 1.44 and still have room and both cases is without compression.
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Well, what use are Word files on a Pegasos? And what's better than the net for transferring jpg? And anyway, it's been a while since I've seen a Word file or a decent quality jpeg below the 1.44MB size.
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So if a classic app in AmigaOS crushes then all the system goes down?
( I mean heavy crush like the ones that crush AmigaOS 3.9, not the crushes that you don`t need to reboot.)
PS: I`m AmigaOS pro
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So if a classic app in AmigaOS crushes then all the system goes down?
( I mean heavy crush like the ones that crush AmigaOS 3.9, not the crushes that you don`t need to reboot.)
Of course. AmigaOS4 is not a memory protected system, and never can be if you want to run Amiga apps on it. Unless you go the sandbox route, that is, which MOS has already done.
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Well, what use are Word files on a Pegasos?
Sooner or later someone will port an MS Office compatible office suite like open office.
And what's better than the net for transferring jpg?
No really the fastest way to transfer jpgs over the net that you don't want other people seeing is e-mail and it gets kinda annoying e-mailing your self over and over again..
And anyway, it's been a while since I've seen a Word file or a decent quality jpeg below the 1.44MB size.
I never ran across too many single jpegs over a meg that I needed to transfer.
As for Word, what kinda of documents do you run into? It takes alot to get a word file over 1.44 MB unless it is pages long.
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@Psy
But why by email.. why not just network PC to A1 or Pegasos? Better, you can install VNC server on PC and steer it from A1 or Pegasos, no need to even touch the pc ;-)
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Yhea I agree there are more important things in MorphOS to do but floppy is still the standard for small data transfer (even though devlopment stoped like Sega's 3 inch (yes 3 inch half a inch smaller) drive in the 80's and the 2.88 MB)
Who says it stopped? Sony and Fuji have developed the HiFD floppy disks/drives out there, holds 200MB+ data on a floppy disk.
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As an active developer and computer problem solver and everything, I
need to move around with piles of files, mostly documents and
images. That means a lot of stuff has to go through other peoples
computers, I can not do network as I don't have those other
computers at home, I can not waste my time and money on phonecalls and
Internet to do the job, I have to be able to grab files I need,
when and whereever I may be. My Pegasos is standing right next to my
Amiga, quite embarrasing I have to email between them. LAN and such is
not an option as it is far too expensive to get on Amiga. Serial is
out too as the software for such is total crap and I only have one
monitor, so would have to switch for every mousemove. :D
If my toilet was made of pure gold things would be different, but many
of us just don't have it like that.
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Who says it stopped? Sony and Fuji have developed the HiFD floppy disks/drives out there, holds 200MB+ data on a floppy disk.
Not really the 2.88 MB never caught on thus the PC is stuck at 1.44 MB. Yes there is stuff like HiFD and superdisk yet for some reason they are not standard on PCs while 1.44 are.
As soon as the industry picks superdisk,HiFD or even Jazz/Zip as a standard and they get put in every new PC then yes I would say 1.44 would be dead.
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@KennyR:
Of course. AmigaOS4 is not a memory protected system, and never can be if you want to run Amiga apps on it. Unless you go the sandbox route, that is, which MOS has already done.
If I remember correctly, their mmu system is used to protect the kernel space, so you may crash apps but you won't be able to write in the kernel space... anyway, in MorphOS as most of OS components run inside the A-Box, you can crash everything in the Abox because the Exec kernel memory zone is not protected as in OS4... at least I have crashed MorphOS and the Q-Box was pretty useless because almost everything runs inside the A-Box...
I'm not stating that one approach is superior to the other, I think that both have their advantages... in the future MorphOS will have more components moved to the Q-Box and it may work better... but if OS4 protects the kernel and some basic drivers from being written by other apps, OS4 should be SLIGHTLY more stable when running 3.x apps. Only SLIGHTLY. Native OS4 apps will probably run using their memory system... let's hope it doesn't break compatibility much. And native Q-Box apps will run in a protected environment too, so new apps for both systems should run pretty stable (that excludes new morphOS apps that uses the A-Box due to the environment they are working...)
Feel free to correct me... but I'm pretty sure that if I recompile a 3.x apps for the A-Box it won't be memory protected... with OS4 the old 3.x app should have memory protection...
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't be too rude ;-)
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>anyway, in MorphOS as most of OS components
>run inside the A-Box, you can crash everything
>because the kernel memory zone is not protecte
>as in OS4...
No that's not true.
>at least I have crashed MorphOS
You crashed A-Box but I doubt you crashed the
kernel.
>with OS4 the old 3.x app should have memory
>protection...
No they won't. That's why it is called "optional
memory protection" in OS4.
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@zacman:
sorry, but I edited the mail after posting because I knew that someone would say that...
Almost everything runs in the A-Box, including the A-Box replacement of the Exec that acts as the "kernel" of the A-Box... so if I crash that "kernel" or better said, the exec.library (I know that the MorphOS kernel is Quarx) all the A-Box will crash as in 3.x. And in the current state of MorphOS most of the system components run in the A-Box, so they are affected by that crash, and you end up resetting your computer as in 3.x. With Pure Q-Box apps it shouldn't happen, but with new apps if they run inside the A-Box you will always have an insecure environment (yeah, insecure inside the A-Box, the Q-Box stuff shouldn't freeze, but if you run even some drivers in the A-Box, the Q-Box concept isn't used to the max and you and up with a very fast 3.x system, but little more)
>with OS4 the old 3.x app should have memory
>protection...
No they won't. That's why it is called "optional
memory protection" in OS4.
that's why I said that an app would have memory protection RECOMPILING the app for OS4, not running it directly without modifications.
But this is of course speculation, I can't say much about this until I see the SDK... and depending on how the app is coded you may have to change the sources... we'll have to wait and see.
On the other hand I have to say that although memory protection is an important feature for a new OS, if the apps the user wants to run are well coded he shouldn't need it... in AmigaOS3.x you can see fast if an App is well coded or not :-)