Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Kronos on June 08, 2003, 01:15:55 PM
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Oh well now they finally dared to show OS4, and waht do we get ??
Another bunch of useless screenshots :quickdraw:
Did anybody ask, what the were seeing ?
How much is still 68k, and how much is PPC ?
(and no, I don't care wether it is just a recompile away, I want to know what is NOW)
What did run ? 68k SW ? WOS ? OS4-native ?
Is P96 allready intregrated in in graphics/layers, or still patching the orginal libs ?
And how will that affect the AGA-compabilty ?
What HW was used ? SCSI (on the CS-PPC) ? Where new drivers used (emu or native ?), or
ist it still the Phase5-device running in emu ?
What GFX-card ? Zorro,PCI or CV-PPC ? And what others are supported RIGHT NOW ?
And yes I know someone will come around and tell me that I ain't worth an answer
(hi Hans-Jörg), but that doesn't change the fact that my questions are valid, and that
STRAIGHT answer to them would give a much better insight in the state of things as a
million of screenshots could ever do.
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> And yes I know someone will come around and tell me that I ain't worth an answer
It depends on how the question is asked. And as I know your stance towards OS4, I also know that you are not interested in the answer, but only in how you can bend them to suit your needs.
Sorry.
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@Thomas
You REALLY are twins it seems ......
And again:
Do you think that my questions are not valid ?
And do you think that not answering them (again) isn't the perfect
amunition for us critics ?
Cos, when I'm forecd to take "no answer" as an answer, I can
only assume that we are seeing somthing like MOS0.1 !
An 100% 68k-OS3.x running on an emulator plus some eyecandy.
Feel free to tell me I am wrong, but if you do so, tell where exactly
I am wrong :-P
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> You REALLY are twins it seems ......
Sure we are.
> Do you think that my questions are not valid ?
They are valid.
> And do you think that not answering them (again) isn't
> he perfect amunition for us critics ?
It doesn't matter if I answer or not. If I don't answer, it's ammunition, and if I answer, it's ammunition. Remember Monty Python "Life of Brian".
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Although I wasn't there, looking at the screenshots you can see that they are using a Voodoo3 ;-)
If I remember correctly they use a Prometheus... and you will be able to use current p96 drivers... I don't know how many drivers will be ppc native, I guess that the voodoo3 and permedia2... others shouldn't have so much priority. The guy that was coding the Radeon drivers posted some time ago in one of these forums that he already had WB running with his drivers...
About the software they ran, at least we know that they showed native OS4 apps (look at the fractal program)
Most of this is pure guessing, but it would be nice if someone who was in the show did a small report for us ;-D
@Thomas:
I hope you'll update the datatype/codec system soon so we don't have to rely on third party viewers and players...
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Kronos wrote:
@Thomas
You REALLY are twins it seems ......
And again:
Do you think that my questions are not valid ?
And do you think that not answering them (again) isn't the perfect
amunition for us critics ?
The problem is Kronos, you've spent so much time trolling, AOS bashing, and generally acting like an arse, that when you do have proper questions (and even then you seem unable to ask them like an adult) everyone is going to ignore you.
No-one needs to give you guys ammunition, you're only using pretend guns :-P
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Kronos, what were you expecting exactly? Ok, so there wasn't as much information as everyone would have liked, but you're going over the top.
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@andy
"acting like an arse" ????
Wow, thats nice !
Yes, have been criticly about OS4 in the past year, and yes I have
never shyed away from telling what I think about all the Hype around
what is and was just trivial parts of the OS, but I also had am awfull
lot of "acting like an arse" directed at me, by normal users AND
official-AInc/Hyperion people, but that doesn't change the fact
that these are the important questions, and that they have sofar
allways been avoided (often by calling the one asking a troll),
by Hyperion when they did have enough time and energy to rave
about a new dock or HDToolBox.
I'm sure noone would mind an OS4 with 3.9 AmiDock and HDTBox,
but an OS4 without support for the onboard(addons) to the CS-PPC
would/could go nowhere.
And about the orginal questions:
I don't see how they could be seen as asked in an unfriendly way
or should I have reworded them to AO-style
"Dear fleecy/Ben/Hans/Thomas, I do now that OS4 will rock and
that you are doing a real good job, could you tell me how much faster
you SCSI-device is than the one done by the evil evile ones ?"
Somehow I think my question were as straight and fair as they
can get, when you are expecting a substantial answer.
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@Mikeymike
I was expecting that after 19 months we would finally get some
real info on OS4 itself, not just the cream-dressing on top of it.
Guess I was wrong.
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Either Slovenian ppl are still speechless, or they were so unimpressed that they didn't bother to write something about it, or there were no visitors at the show.
I think we will know a lot more next week after the German show, with both Friedens there to demonstrate.
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I read here (http://amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=44417) that "the mouse was a
bit wobbly" and that "opus didn't work". Why?
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by Kronos on 2003/6/8 13:30:56
Cos, when I'm forecd to take "no answer" as an answer, I can only assume that we are seeing somthing like MOS0.1 !
dont you know its MOS 0.4 with updated hacks to get those extra window dressing shots
An 100% 68k-OS3.x running on an emulator plus some eyecandy.
Its amazing how you got spot on at first guess, isnt it.
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> Yes, have been criticly about OS4
That's the friendly term for it. Ridiculing would be better. You can't just lead a discussion in any civilized form. Just look at the very first line of your first post here:
"Oh well now they finally dared to show OS4, and waht do we get ??
Another bunch of useless screenshots "
And you're wondering why you don't get answers ?
Important questions not answered: Maybe. (Do you have something particular in mind ?) But then, it's impossible to even lead any decent conversation on web forums without trolls (from any "camp") coming in and placing flame bombs all over the place.
>And about the orginal questions:
> I don't see how they could be seen as asked in an unfriendly way
> or should I have reworded them to AO-style
You don't need to be fawning when asking a question, but I don't answer when the the question is mixed with flamebait all over.
And as I said before: I *know* you are not interested in the answers. So why should I bother ?
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> "opus didn't work". Why?
Good questions. It works for me (same as IBrowse, which was also mentioned in that thread).
Regarding the "wobbly" mouse: What does that mean ? Does it lag behind ?
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>Good questions. It works for me (same as
>IBrowse, which was also mentioned in that thread).
I thought it was meant that Dopus didn't work but
Ibrowse did.
Maybe just a missing library.
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Kronos wrote:
@andy
"acting like an arse" ????
Wow, thats nice !
Just talking straight. Like the old Catchphrase Gameshow - "Say what you see"
Seriously though it seems some have difficulty when I talk straight, like it's out of character or something.
Yes, have been criticly about OS4 in the past year, and yes I have
never shyed away from telling what I think about all the Hype around
what is and was just trivial parts of the OS, but I also had am awfull
lot of "acting like an arse" directed at me, by normal users AND
official-AInc/Hyperion people, but that doesn't change the fact
that these are the important questions, and that they have sofar
allways been avoided (often by calling the one asking a troll),
by Hyperion when they did have enough time and energy to rave
about a new dock or HDToolBox.
The problem is it goes way beyond that. There are many people here who will look past the fluff, ask questions and yet still behave like an adult.
You appear to have a deep hatred of all things not Genesi, which goes beyond the point of asking questions. You don't want to know the answer, you just want to further your own private agenda.
On one level I have an admiration for the fact you are up front about your stance on things (unlike some others). But on the other hand it just gets tiring.
I'm sure noone would mind an OS4 with 3.9 AmiDock and HDTBox,
but an OS4 without support for the onboard(addons) to the CS-PPC
would/could go nowhere.
That's rubbish, we've already had people complianing that it's "just 3.9". Lets face it, no matter how good it is there are people out there who are out to slag it off, to preserve their pride.
And about the orginal questions:
I don't see how they could be seen as asked in an unfriendly way
or should I have reworded them to AO-style
"Dear fleecy/Ben/Hans/Thomas, I do now that OS4 will rock and
that you are doing a real good job, could you tell me how much faster
you SCSI-device is than the one done by the evil evile ones ?"
Somehow I think my question were as straight and fair as they
can get, when you are expecting a substantial answer.
I've never noticed AO being like that. Are you saying that we never get "BBRV your so great, can you tell us exactly how great you are?" style comments?
There are cheerleaders on both sides, the only differnce between them is the colour of thier uniforms.
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> Do you think that my questions are not valid ?
They are valid.
.. so are you going to answer them? The Community seem to be aching to be told, regardless of who actually asks the questions.
And until now all you have done is say "well I won't answer because Kronos asked". I can't ask then, because I am associated with MorphOS. So.. who needs to ask to make you answer?
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Wow, just what i always wanted. An ann slag fest live @ amiga.org :(
Can someone delete all the posts (including this one) after kronos, because their offtopic and just plain stupid flames!!!
Sorry kronos, i cant answere your questions :)
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@ Kronos
I was expecting that after 19 months we would finally get some
real info on OS4 itself, not just the cream-dressing on top of it.
Like the featurelist, basic system requirements, and screenshots? How much of Windows, Linux distros, the BSDs, Solaris or MacOS do you see before a new release?
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Thats different, all those OSes aren't hyped for 6 years.
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Re-sending questions because I am also curious to
know.
How much is still 68k, and how much is PPC ?
What did run ? 68k SW ? WOS ? OS4-native ?
Is P96 allready intregrated in in graphics/layers, or still patching the orginal libs ?
And how will that affect the AGA-compabilty ?
What HW was used ? SCSI (on the CS-PPC) ?
Where new drivers used (emu or native ?), or
ist it still the Phase5-device running in emu ?
What GFX-card ? Zorro,PCI or CV-PPC ? And what others are supported right now ?
Thank you in advance for the answers. ;-)
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Like the featurelist, basic system requirements, and screenshots? How much of Windows, Linux distros, the BSDs, Solaris or MacOS do you see before a new release?
A lot more than that. Before Windows is released, there are reviews for years ahead of time on various websites. There are streamed videos of how it works. There is a tearing apart of it's inner workings and dissection of every click and mouse movement.
Before a major Linux distro update is released, it is given sneak previews by almost every major linux outlet, the same level of dissection as Windows *if not moreso*, and generally total analysis of the design for months beforehand.
Same goes for the BSD's and Solaris.
And *ALL OF THEM HAVE PUBLIC BETAS RELEASED MONTHS IF NOT YEARS AHEAD OF TIME.*
You're the one that asked, just remember.
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@ lorddef
Thats different, all those OSes aren't hyped for 6 years.
That shows how much you know about Windows or MacOS. I've known about the codename "Longhorn" and various (vapourware or not) bits of news related to it for quite a few years now. I've heard much the same kind of hyping in the background with MacOS as well.
Anyway, AmigaOS4 has NOT been hyped for 6 years. It's been 'on the horizon' and not much said about it for a long time, but I think most people (ie. 'not Amigans') will have a very different definition to 'hyping' than you do :-)
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@ downix
A lot more than that. Before Windows is released, there are reviews for years ahead of time on various websites. There are streamed videos of how it works. There is a tearing apart of it's inner workings and dissection of every click and mouse movement.
Not years ahead. And anyway, you can't have a "review" before the product is released. You have a "preview" :-)
Longhorn is just starting to have useful information leak out about it, and it's probably going to be released next year. But there's been vapourware information going on about it from reputable sources going on for years.
You don't get a dissection of any OS, particularly Windows way before its release, or even before its release. A few trusted companies/websites are allowed to look but not touch it, only as long as they say nice things about it. I keep my ear to the ground reasonably about Longhorn, and I've only seen the screenshots for it, and some dodgy videos of strangely/dodgy animating windows, and the bizarre "128MB graphics card required to run Longhorn full stop" requirement.
Ok, you find a majorly detailed pre-release of information for any OS and I'll concede on a single point. About Linux, generally you see an errata and new features list when a new kernel is released. Otherwise, distros get p/reviewed, in a "it was easy to install and I quite liked it" point of view. BSDs you certainly don't, and (while I'm not sure on this next point) Solaris I've not heard of such detailed criticism or information coming out pre-release.
Yes, AmigaOS4 should have hit the shelves by now, considering the release of the AmigaOne hardware. If that had happened as intended, then the p/reviews would have come out as they usually do, however it's not finished yet. If you do your homework, you'll find generally that particularly with Windows, previewers are allowed a few screenshots and are allowed to say a few nice things about how great all the new features are, that's about it.
Particularly with the OS4 featurelist, I've never seen anything so detailed pre-release for any OS, and I'd like to see you produce some evidence to support your statement.
One more thing - when was the last time you saw a PUBLIC beta of Windows, MacOS or any other commercial operating system? I think you'll find, as with most operating system releases, that only a selection of people will get betas shipped to them. Just like with AmigaOS. And they probably have to sign NDAs, just like OS4 testers had to.
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Just talking straight. Like the old Catchphrase Gameshow - "Say what you see"
errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!
Riggggghhhht!
@Kronos
Acting like an arse - I would`ve thought that was a mild spin on it :-D
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@Kronos
well in all honesty, maybe you should have replaced:
"Oh well now they finally dared to show OS4, and waht do we get ??
Another bunch of useless screenshots"
with:
"Only screenshots? I have a few questions thats still bothering me, anyone able to answer: ?"
.. I think you'd have better response.. nothing wrong being straightforward though. It's just that screenshots WAS what people were screaming for, and got them. Frankly I don't like what I saw either, but I wouldn't call them "useless".
And indeed, valid questions, each one of them.
Hooligan
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The voice of calm and reason strikes again.
Hi Hooligan!
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Real news?
AmigaOS for the AmigaOne is no where to be found. That is what I consider the real news. Now.... all of you go to Wayne and apologize for slamming him several months ago...
//FarQ
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Now.... all of you go to Wayne and apologize for slamming him several months ago...
Well I didn`t actually confront Wayne about his opinions at the time so I`ve no need to apologise. Again, it makes me laugh thou - I`m sure you could do a much better job at porting an OS and probably in half the time couldn`t you...
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It should be humorously noted that the MorphOS team WROTE THEIR OWN for dedicated PPC hardware in less than the time it's taking Hyperion to PORT theirs to antiquated Amiga hardware.
I should point out that I have a great deal of respect for the Friedens, but the choice (probably not their own) to write for the old PPC cards first was simply stupid.
// FarQ
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It should be humorously noted that the MorphOS team WROTE THEIR OWN for dedicated PPC hardware in less than the time it's taking Hyperion to PORT theirs to antiquated Amiga hardware.
Eh? You do realise that the whole MorphOS project was started in the 90's? The OS4 project didn't begin untill a couple of years ago - MorphOS by then was already in public beta!
but the choice (probably not their own) to write for the old PPC cards first was simply stupid.
It's what happened with MorphOS.
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@ FarQuad
AmigaOS for the AmigaOne is no where to be found. That is what I consider the real news.
Do you have a point to make, or do you just like trolling?
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:-(
No answer is quite clear answer. If they had anything they'd boast about it.
:-x
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@ porneL
I did reply telling you to stop trolling or I'd start moderating, but reading what you wrote again, it could be that you were actually trying to say something, but used slightly iffy wording.
OS4 is on tour. That means it's in a reasonable state to start showing the public, even though it's not quite ready for release yet. I think the Hyperion team would call that quite a milestone to pass, as well as most people who aren't so blindly biased to their own points of view. I think the Hyperion team would find your comments quite insulting.
If your comment wasn't intended to be a troll-job, please think more about the wording of your comments, as they're open to misinterpretation.
As for "real news", the public have seen OS4 in action, which is a hell of a lot more than could be previously said. It would be nice if there were more accounts of what went on, and peoples' opinions after seeing the product in action, but that is for them to do. I'm sure as OS4 goes further along the tour that we'll get more useful feedback.
Personally I would prefer that OS4 had been released by now, but I guess I can't have everything :-)
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And yes I know someone will come around and tell me that I ain't worth an answer (hi Hans-Jörg), but that doesn't change the fact that my questions are valid
They are, but unless you learn to ask them in a decent way, I won't bother. Just look at your posting. You simply cannot ask something in a polite or non-flamable fashion. It's always full of "flame on", or "useless screenshots".
And you wonder why I refuse to answer?
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Yes, have been criticly about OS4 in the past year, and yes I have never shyed away from telling what I think
There is a difference between stating your opinion, and flaming. Most of your posts contain at least something like "flame on" or an arrogant "lol", giving the general impression of "I could do better".
And about the orginal questions:
I don't see how they could be seen as asked in an unfriendly way
or should I have reworded them to AO-style
Again an insult. I am wondering some times if you do that on purpose or if you just don't notice how you behave.
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Let me at that stage equally humourously point out that large sections of the MorphOS code were lifted from the AROS codebase.
Things like DOS and Intuition for instance which are among the largest OS modules in OS 3.x.
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And *ALL OF THEM HAVE PUBLIC BETAS RELEASED MONTHS IF NOT YEARS AHEAD OF TIME.*
Seems your mind is already made up. Why bother, then?
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Well I thought the screenshots looked pretty cool 8-)
Maybe I'm just more easily pleased than some...
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So do we get answers or do we not?
I see lots of Hyperion people commenting but mainly useless BS targeted to person who has been corrected about a dozen times already.
Building up one of those "most useless threads" at speeds unknown to manbeing :-)
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How much is still 68k, and how much is PPC ?
Kernel and a few key libraries are PowerPC native. Some stuff is still 68k, but will be replaced in the near future. Preparations for the move to PPC have been made since the work started out, so it will be rather painless. Those modules we ported so far didn't pose any serious problems.
What did run ? 68k SW ? WOS ? OS4-native ?
To tell you the truth, I don't know what they've been showing. Jürgen did make the presentation, and I was not there.
Is P96 allready intregrated in in graphics/layers, or still patching the orginal libs ?
I don't understand the point. You will probably tell me that ramlib isn't properly integrated into the system because it patches Exec?
No, P96 patches the original libs. There's nothing wrong with that. What is interesting to the user is exclusively when the graphics system is available, that is, if I can view the early startup menu on a graphics card screen or not. The answer is yes.
And how will that affect the AGA-compabilty ?
Not at all. AGA software works just fine.
What HW was used ? SCSI (on the CS-PPC) ?
Again, I don't know how the show machines where equipped. We do have a native driver for CS SCSI, though, if that is the question.
Where new drivers used (emu or native ?), or
ist it still the Phase5-device running in emu ?
See above. The flashrom on the CSPPC isn't executed, and no third-party drivers from Phase5 are used.
What GFX-card ? Zorro,PCI or CV-PPC ? And what others are supported right now ?
All of them. CSPPC's got a new driver written from scratch. With SNAP, we'll also be able to support the latest GeForce (2D of course), all Radeons, and a whole bunch of other cards :-)
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I see lots of Hyperion people commenting but mainly useless BS targeted to person who has been corrected about a dozen times already.
Useless BS?
Now, that was clearly a flame, so by your own high standards, go stand in the corner.
And people wonder why I grow tried of dealing with kiddies...
But thanks. I just tried to answer, but apparently, this is all useless. Go try to get your answers from someone who cares.
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>I see lots of Hyperion people commenting but mainly useless
> BS targeted to person who has been corrected about a dozen
> times already.
I see a lot of BS targeted at me, every day, sometimes from you as well. So you think I should swallow every #### targeted at me and reply nicely ? Grow up.
> Building up one of those "most useless threads" at
> speeds unknown to manbeing
Well, you should know, you're a master at that.
Sorry, do not treat me like an idiot, then I won't treat you like one. That's a basic fundamential.
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I'd like to know if Hyperion could shed some light on the sharkPCC expansion
Has Hyperion ever received a developer board from Elbox? Will it run OS4 as Elbox persistently claim? I trust Hyperion don't also have a gentlemen's agreement with Elbox to keep their trap shut when it comes to discussing their hardware as seems to be the case with Ainc.
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Wow. People really do not have sense of humour.
At least people got some answers. Actually I had a couple more questions but guess it's not much sense to ask.
Hooligan
-- The master of building useless threads in speed unknown to mankind
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@Enthilza
> see a lot of BS targeted at me, every day, sometimes from you as well. So you think I should swallow every #### targeted at me and reply nicely ? Grow up.
I give lots of bitching and BS to MOS developers at mailinglists aswell. So far none has replied in a matter you guys did.
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@ Mr. and Mr. Frieden:
;-) Being a Club Amiga member, I am privy to information that most of Hyperion’s detractors are not. That data, combined with the new screenshots, have me a very happy bunny.
:-D Rest assured, gentlemen of Hyperion: I, for one, am elated with the recent news, and will be ecstatic to get my hands on the new Amiga OS 4.0 when it is available.
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I see a lot of BS targeted at me, every day, sometimes from you as well. So you think I should swallow every #### targeted at me and reply nicely ? Grow up.
Just to step in... I'm not saying you should, but I do think it would benefit your position - "swallowing the crap" and replying nicely. Many companies probably hold the position that it would also be the "professional" thing to do, but that is not so important a point... The more important ones are all the benefits of rising above the crap. Benefits for you.
I'm talking about maintaining the moral high-ground with style and answers that gain their merit from their substance, not their effectiveness in countering personal attacks with more of the same. Hooligan had a point, even if he made it poorly. You did waste your and other people's time with these "you didn't ask nicely, I won't answer" types of messages - only for your people to eventually answer. (Nicely, thank you very much for that!) There is very little grown up about that. But more importantly, there is very little for you to gain in that.
Again, these subsenquent responses to Hooligan were quite unnecessary. You could have just calmly answered, ignored the flames and walked away as the winners of this thread. To be balanced, same goes for people like BBRV. It is not without reason some say he is his own worst enemy at times. Frankly - people around me tell me the same. And I think they are correct. There is lot to gain from fighting only the necessary fights, and very little in fighting the useless ones. (Obviously the art is to know which is which.)
You would gain an enormous amount of respect from people just by saying "sorry, got a bit worked up there - here are the answers". Believe me, people don't expect it, and not all will buy it, but many will love your for it. I've seen it happen a lot of times. It's the humility and achievement through action that buys souls and holds them near. Us loudmouths, well, we don't often get that far.
Sorry, do not treat me like an idiot, then I won't treat you like one. That's a basic fundamential.
An eye for an eye?
Remarks like that only make people dig harder to find all the times they could say the same of your people. And us all being imperfect, they will find valid ammunition. You can't stop that, and you certainly know that. But you can choose not to participate. Stick to the point, answer the questions even if they are uncomfortable (if you can) and let the personal remarks slide. And if you make a mistake, or get worked up, (and we all do from time to time) just admit it and apologize for it - even if no-one else does that.
They will love you for it.
Now, me goes back to trying to swallow my own medicine. :-)
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@Friedens:
Thanks for answering the questions, even if they were asked in a less-than-friendly manner. Unlike the usual suspects, I like the fact that some OS modules are still 68K code, it goes pretty far to show that our huge 68K code base (in aminet etc) will probably work well. About the P96 being a patch rather than integrated, I think the reason for the question was, how well integrated is it? I think you answered that by saying that even the early startup menu (before the disk-loaded stuff kicks in) you have access to the new screenmodes.
Is Hyperion going to be actively involved (ie someone standing next to one of the machines) in any of the demos?
@Hooligan_DCS:
Interesting word, "manbeings". It sounds like something Zorg from Primus5 would say, "cower, primitive manbeings" :-D
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I will rephrase.. mankind :)
And to all who thinks I was trolling, I was not. I was being direct, and thats what I honestly believe: to answer someone ten times "we will not answer you" is childliss arguing and total BS.
Don't know if either of the boys actually read the thread and noticed me agreeing with them.. guess it was more important to jump on my throat than read the previous comments.
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Hooligan_DCS wrote:
I will rephrase.. mankind :)
And to all who thinks I was trolling, I was not. I was being direct, and thats what I honestly believe: to answer someone ten times "we will not answer you" is childliss arguing and total BS.
Don't know if either of the boys actually read the thread and noticed me agreeing with them.. guess it was more important to jump on my throat than read the previous comments.
*Sigh*
And so it goes on. You could actually just be the bigger person and walk away if you were the kind of person you claim to be. But no, you HAVE to get the last word in.
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I think they're a bit touchy right now. They've probably been working very hard (read: late nights, weekends) to get OS4 to a demoable state. It's not them controlling the demo, so they can't skirt around buggy areas; they need to make sure *nothing* will bomb (this is the "first impression" BenH was talking about). After all that hard work, a few people who have no intention of buying OS4 start slagging it off, just for fun. I would definitely be pissed off if I was Hans or H-J, I'm surprised they even replied.
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After all that hard work, a few people who have no intention of buying OS4 start slagging it off, just for fun. I would definitely be pissed off if I was Hans or H-J, I'm surprised they even replied.
That really is the problem. How can you tell if someone will buy OS4 or not? Many of these people probably will consider it when it ships. We are talking about long-time Amiga users, after all.
The answers of the sort we've seen here benefit no one. They will certainly not benefit Hyperion. But sure, I can understand getting worked up - we all do that from time to time.
They could still make it right though.
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"Manners cost you nothing"...thats what my dear old mom used to say. :-D
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@CodeSmith,
While I agree and think you're right, it would have been better if they had not to replied at all.. Or at least had waited a bit longer before posting. Anyway, Roque did answer the questions, so that makes up for it..
@ the OS4 team
Nice work fellows. (Don't like the look myself, but it's still good to see)
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@HyperionMP
So you finally accept that MOS used AROS rather than secretly stolen data tapes that Amiga, Inc had hidden in Merlancia's top-security hideout?
As for MOS using AROS: And your point is?
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I believe he's saying that it's the pot calling the kettle black. If MOS people think it's OK to use code/icons/whatever from AROS (why reinvent the wheel, after all?), then they should also think it's OK for AmigaOS4 to use code/icons/whatever from AmigaOS3.
-
As for MOS using AROS: And your point is?
Maybe because FarQuad said that the MOS team had written an OS from scratch in a shorter time than OS4 had been made - using AROS code means that it isn't quite "from scratch".
-
in reply to Kronos' original comments. I saw some pccies that weren't the screencshots hyperion made (can't remember address) and anyhow. A couple A1s A4000PPC. OS4
-
That really is the problem. How can you tell if someone will buy OS4 or not? Many of these people probably will consider it when it ships. We are talking about long-time Amiga users, after all.
True, but you forget what's been happening in the meantime. For Chronos to go out and buy OS4 and the hardware needed to run it (CSPPC, A-One, whatever), would mean he's admitting that he's also a "Blind Follower of The Name Cult". I think he'd sooner run Windows XP :-D
-
Being a Club Amiga member, I am privy to information that most of Hyperion’s detractors are not.
ohhh so the 50 did buy you something :) the ability to act 'on high' about hearing information any other company would just make public...but in this community bieng what it is...they chose to try to profit from it..
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@Uncharted
Hopefully some issues were cleared during the short talk we had on irc.
Time to hit the bed and read further insults in the morning :-D
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jtsiren joined in:
You would gain an enormous amount of respect from people just by saying "sorry, got a bit worked up there - here are the answers". Believe me, people don't expect it, and not all will buy it, but many will love your for it. I've seen it happen a lot of times. It's the humility and achievement through action that buys souls and holds them near. Us loudmouths, well, we don't often get that far.
;-) Actually, I agree with you on this bit; the man who is able to admit his mistakes wins a lot of respect.
:-( On the other hand, Mr. and Mr. Frieden are only human, and have been working very stressful hours lately, as we can only imagine. They've shown more restraint than many of us here have any right to expect.
:-D Personally, I think that a round of applause is in order. Furthermore, I expect that as the tour progresses and we see more of what OS 4.0 can do, a round of applause will be the order of the day.
-
This Morphos - OS4 is just so pathetic. Look at all forums and will see it again and again and again ...
I wonder when is this going to stop?
Oh, and Hooligan, the Friedens have every right not to answer. Kronos is a troll, a morphOS user with no interest in OS4 whatsoever. So why the questions if you are not interested: to troll. Plain and simple. Whatever the answer, it is going to be twisted, reworded and used against them.
@To the Friedens:
Keep up the hard work. One day you will be rewarded for it. Be proud of what you have achieved, no matter what some ppl say (always the same ppl by the way) and keep fighting for what you believe in. I hope that you will be able to really show off what you have done yourselves next weekend in Germany.
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downix wrote:
So you finally accept that MOS used AROS rather than secretly stolen data tapes that Amiga, Inc had hidden in Merlancia's top-security hideout?
So you are saying that former members of Phase 5 ( who later became the authors of MorphOS) were never given access to AOS 3.x source code by Amiga Technologies (or whatever it was called at the time) in the mid-90s?
I'd love to know, because I've never been given a straight answer on this. Is it just rumour or did it actually happen?
@Hooligan
Yep, all sorted. That's why i prefer IRC to forums :-)
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meerschaum mentioned:
ohhh so the 50 did buy you something :) the ability to act 'on high' about hearing information any other company would just make public.
;-) Nah, I could do that for free.
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@ z5
hear, hear.
-
zacman wrote:
>Good questions. It works for me (same as
>IBrowse, which was also mentioned in that thread).
I thought it was meant that Dopus didn't work but
Ibrowse did.
Maybe just a missing library.
That's right. Opus didn't work on my A4000, the other one ran it perfectly (it was propably a missing lib).
Ibrowse did work.
-
You did waste your and other people's time with these "you didn't ask nicely, I won't answer" types of messages
Kronos directly picked me for that - blame it on him.
If you think reading my (or Thomas) posts is a waste of time, there is the easy solution to look the other way.
-
If MOS people think it's OK to use code/icons/whatever from AROS (why reinvent the wheel, after all?), then they should also think it's OK for AmigaOS4 to use code/icons/whatever from AmigaOS3
The problem is that AROS code was written from scratch, in C and is more or less hardware independent while amigaos3 code is targetted for amigas and contains some asm.
-
@CodeSmith:
Is Hyperion going to be actively involved (ie someone standing next to one of the machines) in any of the demos?
Thomas and me will be at the Augsburg show next week, though we'll probably only "be there", answering a few questions (if people ask nicely)
-
while amigaos3 code is targetted for amigas and contains some asm.
Let's rather say "used to contain". There is little 68k assembler left in the current source tree.
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@porneL:
Well, that's good for AROS - but it's MOS that was borrowing from AROS, not the other way around.
Incidentally, there is no way you can write an operating system that is 100% hardware independent - you will always have something that depends on the hardware. A very important part of an OS's job is to make sure that *applications* are hardware-independent.
Even if you're not counting device drivers as part of the OS, the part of the OS that manages access to interrupts has to know how the interrupt controller works.
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@Rogue:
Great to hear that! I really hope someone records and mp3's that Q&A session, cos I won't be able to make it!
BTW, love the new avatar :-D
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mikeymike wrote:
@ FarQuad
AmigaOS for the AmigaOne is no where to be found. That is what I consider the real news.
Do you have a point to make, or do you just like trolling?
Why is that trolling?
(And I say that being a person who couldn't give less of a damn for the fly-in-the-ointment Morph-os)
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@L8-X
"Manners cost you nothing"...
My grandfather used to say "It doesn't cost a penny to be polite".
Still works for me after xx years.
-john
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@ B00tdisk
Why is that trolling?
Farquad wrote:
AmigaOS for the AmigaOne is no where to be found. That is what I consider the real news.
Yes, everyone knows OS4 isn't released yet, even then the comment was inaccurate, as OS4 has been "found" on an A4000 on the tour. There was nothing interesting or informative in the post, and it looks like its sole intention was to annoy people who want OS4. What was the point in saying it? Because Farquad felt he had a unique and interesting point to make?
I'm all for discussion, and I don't mind heated discussion either, but it should not be for the sole benefit of inflating egos and point-scoring. People can make controversial points that might get other peoples' backs up too, but do it for some other reason than just to annoy people.
Do you feel he had anything valid or interesting to say? Regardless of the point being right, wrong, agreeing or not with my feelings on the subject, I don't think he did, he was just trying to make a bitchy remark, IMO. And the last thing I want to see happen to amiga.org is for it to become like comp.sys.amiga.advocacy or comp.sys.amiga.misc. If that means people have to be a little more mature and a little less impulsive, I'm all for it.
-
i dont see why so many are still going over all this pegasos v's amigaone bs
simply choose the one that suits you, and buy it
or buy both!
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uncharted wrote:
downix wrote:
So you finally accept that MOS used AROS rather than secretly stolen data tapes that Amiga, Inc had hidden in Merlancia's top-security hideout?
So you are saying that former members of Phase 5 ( who later became the authors of MorphOS) were never given access to AOS 3.x source code by Amiga Technologies (or whatever it was called at the time) in the mid-90s?
I'd love to know, because I've never been given a straight answer on this. Is it just rumour or did it actually happen?
I've heard so many rumors about it that at this point I can't even keep them straight. If you're asking me as an employee of Genesi, then you're asking the wrong person for I am not in the development nor the legal departments.
But this does bring up a curious question in the back of my head: How much of AROS's source did Hyperion use in order to assist their development of AOS4?
-
Like the featurelist, basic system requirements, and screenshots? How much of Windows, Linux distros, the BSDs, Solaris or MacOS do you see before a new release?
Most of what you see of windows is through leaked betas. I recall MS i pretty hard up when its about releasing secreats of up and coming OSs. I dont know about MacOSX, but i dont remember hearing or seeing much information before a release.
However, the Open Source communities do, but thats because they have nothing to loose when detailing what they've been up to. There are a number of reasons.
You can download it for free. Ie, and betas or nightly builds can be downloaded or you can download the source and compile it yourself to see whats happened.
Their not compeditive with MS or Apple or anyone else, so they dont have any secretes that are viable for the paltform.
AmigaOS is totally, different. With MOS around the corner, Amiga Inc and /or Hyperion dont want to give away trade secreats. But having said that, i think we've seen enough featurelists and prerelease screen grabs to know whats going on. I think thats all their required to do!
-
Kronos is a troll, a morphOS user with no interest in OS4 whatsoever.
I dont know if kronos is a troll. I know he's keen for MorphOS and asks a lot of questions about AmigaOS when something bigsh happens. Nothing wrong with that.
Although, that bit in kronos text about the OS4 develop (rouge i believe) was very uncalled for. But it happened, and everyone should have left it there. Its not kronos fault the flame war started, it takes more than one to do that. The first to reply pretty much cemented it in!!!!
@To the Friedens:
They did a bit of trolling too remember :)
Keep up the hard work. One day you will be rewarded for it. Be proud of what you have achieved, no matter what some ppl say (always the same ppl by the way) and keep fighting for what you believe in. I hope that you will be able to really show off what you have done yourselves next weekend in Germany.
Keep the OS4 tour rolling :) Cant wait to see what other things might be install, if any. These guys are doing a great job. Keep up the good work.
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@Z5
Of course they don't have to answer anything. That was hardly the point. But let's see if they kindly can answer a couple issues I'm interested:
@Friedens
- Can I copy text from all requesters and windows?
- There is currently a bit of a problem with missing audio.device in Pegasos/MorphOS which causes lots of audio software not to work. How is that handled in AmigaOne/OS4 combination?
With a dummy device or paula -> ahi direction?
-
You did waste your and other people's time with these "you didn't ask nicely, I won't answer" types of messages
Kronos directly picked me for that - blame it on him. If you think reading my (or Thomas) posts is a waste of time, there is the easy solution to look the other way.
You disagree with my point then? The one about being the bigger man. I'm sorry to hear that. I really am. :-?
If you indeed think Kronos did it to annoy you - or to make you look bad - he certainly succeeded in getting some of the worst of you out. If you only had held the moral high ground, answered nicely and let his flames wind down...
You would have gained a lot of respect and Kronos would have looked... silly.
It is not, in my opinion, interesting to discuss who is to blame. If it helps you any, I can concede on Kronos. But that is like trying to solve the Middle East crisis by finding a scapegoat. Nobody wins. My original post in this thread was about benefits for you. I sincerely believe you could gain a lot that way.
-
@Rodney
You might not think that Kronos is a troll, but this topic posting of his was clearly flamebait from subject to signoff. Its not a matter of being a better man, do you think that if Kronos was face to face with the Friedens in a room he would have spoken thus? What about with his dear old mum present?
I suspect you and I know what to expect from a Kronos post so we filter off the excess crap.
Can you imagine say Gary, Nate or Alkis using such a tone as Kronos does? However we expect less in this case.
Lets analyse:
Subject : Any REAL news from the OS4-tour ?
Rudeness. Suggests that the news from the OS4 tour ( anti-aliased fonts/ PPC native and PPC modules working in their integrated emulation approach ) was not REAL or USEFUL which contradicts flatly what Kronos and others have been calling for "SHOW US IT WORKING".
Oh well now they finally dared to show OS4, and waht do we get ??
Rude. Implies that the reason that it had not been shown before was cowardice rather than the traditional AmigaOS approach ( which is not to release betas since 1.3 ). The "what do we get??" shows exaggerated nay pantomime indignation.
Another bunch of useless screenshots
Rude. "useless". No need for that. I agree that screenshots are far from a great indicator of anything but I didn't notice you saying that "screenshots are useless" when we started to see the first MOS Ambient screenshots. However they do illustrate the progress of the UI, anti-aliased fonts and serve as a discussion point. Far from useless. In fact I remember distinctly you arguing with me when I pointed out that screenshots don't tell you diddly about Ambient.
Did anybody ask, what the were seeing ?
How much is still 68k, and how much is PPC ?
(and no, I don't care wether it is just a recompile away, I want to know what is NOW)
Rude to disregard an answer before you get it "I don't care if blah blah waaaaah". What you want is an answer that allows you to go rushing round all the newsgroups and fora posting "ITS JUST 68K FOR FREAKS SAKE!" willfully ignoring the relative simplicity of a make clean all install.
What did run ? 68k SW ? WOS ? OS4-native ?
Is P96 allready intregrated in in graphics/layers, or still patching the orginal libs ?
And how will that affect the AGA-compabilty ?
What HW was used ? SCSI (on the CS-PPC) ? Where new drivers used (emu or native ?), or
ist it still the Phase5-device running in emu ?
What GFX-card ? Zorro,PCI or CV-PPC ? And what others are supported RIGHT NOW ?
All quite reasonable compared to the Kronos we saw before. I ask you though Kronos, if someone sends you a cheque for 100 euros in an envelope they have wiped their arse with would you open it willingly?
And yes I know someone will come around and tell me that I ain't worth an answer
No. I don't think you are worth an answer but what I think in this is irrelevant, your **questions** were worth answering but frankly for the last few years you have come across as nothing but a schoolyard gang member with a gutter jeering attitude who is incapable of hiding his agenda.
(hi Hans-Jörg), but that doesn't change the fact that my questions are valid,
No, it doesn't change that but again we are back to merde encrusted envelopes.
and that
STRAIGHT answer to them would give a much better insight in the state of things as a
million of screenshots could ever do.
Rude. Suggesting that before they have been less than straight.
So no, in conclusion I dont think Kronos's questions are trolling but the packaging he uses is designed to inflame and annoy the answerer as well as telling the audience what he thinks before any answer is given.
I am reminded of those 50s small town american films that shows the jock and his mates jeering at someone trying to provoke a fight.
So Kronos, don't expect a civilised response unless you are prepared yourself to act civilised. For the others on here criticising the Friedens, don't blame them for Kronos' behaviour.
Given how they did not resort to Kronos' level I think they come off "the better man".
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@DaveP
The Friedens did not go down to "my level" ???
Maybe you should try to reread this thread with your eyes open with time !
I also allready explained to you that there is no way that you could have seen years of Kronos-postings as I never posted in
any Amiga-forum prior to September 01, and was more or less pro-OS4 till May 02.
The reason I posted the remark to Hans-Jörg was that he acted just like that on Amiga-News.de, were he tried to put words in
my mouth (try to find a quote were I said that OS4 will never run) without giving proove or answering my question.
My stance on screenshots is known, and prior to this thread there was no NEWS (things we didn't know before) from the tour.
No we finally got some answers, and I must admit that they seem to a bit more advanced as it seemed based on the info (and
reactions to questions) we got from them before. I just don't understand why they didn't make such important steps news themselves.
And yes I still think that "can easily be recompiled" is NOT an answer to the question of how much is PPC-native, and thats
why I put that in.
Would I have the a prob saying what I wrote face to face with them ? NO ! They do have an history of flaming and trolling
themselves (just look up old ann.l or Amiga-News threads on MorphOS or Amithon), and if they can't take a spoonfull of
their own medicine .....
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downix wrote:
I've heard so many rumors about it that at this point I can't even keep them straight. If you're asking me as an employee of Genesi, then you're asking the wrong person for I am not in the development nor the legal departments.
Fair enough. I'll have to ask elsewhere then.
But this does bring up a curious question in the back of my head: How much of AROS's source did Hyperion use in order to assist their development of AOS4?
Oh dear! Now this to me sounds like : -
"Shit! He's onto us! What's that behind you Uncharted? RUN FOR IT LADS!!!" :lol:
-
No AROS code whatsoever was used for OS 4.
This is hardly surprising if you consider that AROS is only meant to be compatible with 3.1 at source-code level.
-
How much of AROS's source did Hyperion use in order to assist their development of AOS4?
Simple one word answer: "Zero".
-
he certainly succeeded in getting some of the worst of you out.
Believe me when I say that you haven't yet seen the worst of me.
It is not only here. Kronos does this on every forum.
To give him credit though, his questons *are* valid. Something that you cannot say from others, especially on german forums. However, like I said, if he chooses to ask them in an offensive way, I choose to ignore them.
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@Rouge
Like your new avatar :-D
-
Kronos wrote:
@DaveP
The Friedens did not go down to "my level" ???
Maybe you should try to reread this thread with your eyes open with time !
I reread. I stand by that.
I also allready explained to you that there is no way that you could have seen years of Kronos-postings as I never posted in
any Amiga-forum prior to September 01, and was more or less pro-OS4 till May 02.
Sept 01. Sept 02. Its now June 03. I think that qualifies as "years". Regardless of your stance. I have NEVER seen a "pro OS4 " stance from you.
The reason I posted the remark to Hans-Jörg was that he acted just like that on Amiga-News.de,
Amiga-news.de is not here. I have no idea what you are talking about or what running dispute this is part of. From where I come in fresh to this it looked like one hell of a flamebait post.
were he tried to put words in
my mouth (try to find a quote were I said that OS4 will never run) without giving proove or answering my question.
Well Im sure if he searched hard enough ;-)
My stance on screenshots is known, and prior to this thread there was no NEWS (things we didn't know before) from the tour.
Really? So we all knew that it was using anti-aliased fonts, that it was working on the Cyberstorm PPC and that emulation was working peachily? Strange...
No we finally got some answers, and I must admit that they seem to a bit more advanced as it seemed based on the info (and
reactions to questions) we got from them before. I just don't understand why they didn't make such important steps news themselves.
They have said before they think actions speak louder than words. MorphOS was barely leaking any useful information prior to its GA ... sorry "Beta Tester" launch.
And yes I still think that "can easily be recompiled" is NOT an answer to the question of how much is PPC-native, and thats
why I put that in.
Its called a qualifier. A caveat. Its called answering the question and answering the underlying motive for asking the question too.
Would I have the a prob saying what I wrote face to face with them ? NO ! They do have an history of flaming and trolling
themselves (just look up old ann.l or Amiga-News threads on MorphOS or Amithon), and if they can't take a spoonfull of
their own medicine .....
I am well aware of how far both of them have gone in the past under severe provocation. I am sure you would have asked the same questions but I think there would have been signficantly less merde on the envelope.
-
put words in my mouth
I didn't. I only said that people had been claiming that our emulation concept wouldn't work. You said this was wrong. I never implied that it was you that said something like this. But ANN is full of these.
And yes I still think that "can easily be recompiled" is NOT an answer to the question of how much is PPC-native, and thats
why I put that in.
Then why did you ask? When I say that recompiling for PPC is easy, you (and others) go and deny what I say. Why do you ask questions if you don't believe the answers?
-
Believe me when I say that you haven't yet seen the worst of me.
Okay, I'll take your word for it.
It is not only here. Kronos does this on every forum.
I have no problem in conceding that either.
However, that was hardly my point.
To give him credit though, his questons *are* valid. Something that you cannot say from others, especially on german forums. However, like I said, if he chooses to ask them in an offensive way, I choose to ignore them.
Ignoring is one thing. Responding the way you did is another.
You could gain a lot by keeping your calm, humility and to the point answers throughout - no matter how much the audience tries to stir you up. THAT was my point. Obviously you disagree, so I'll leave it at that.
-
>Simple one word answer: "Zero".
So the features that were implemented into
OS3.5/3.9 using AROS code have also been
rewritten?
-
Care to identify them?
-
@DaveP
The Colorwheel-gadget comes to mind (there were others, put I'm not sure about what those were).
And just go through the ann.lu-archives till you hit early 02, or even the 1st 2 months worth of posting here
(after the site was restarted), but I'm not sure wether these are still available.
What will you find ? A Kronos who wants OS4 (just not any HW from Eyetech ;-) ), but allready dares to question the
overoptimistic release dates given at that time.
You will also find a Kronos critizing MorphOS (mainly because there was no WB-replacement back than).
I even went sofar to seeing MorphOS as useless, since OS4 was "real soon now", but after a while I managed to see things
a bit more realistic (and so have others who have been strongly in the OS4-camp). In my case the public behaviour of
Hyperion-employees was one major contributing factor, and I don't think I am a single case on this.
-
Care to identify them?
Haage & Partner used parts of AROS in AmigaOS 3.5 and 3.9, for example the colorwheel and gradientslider gadgets and the SetENV command. This means that in a way, AROS has become part of the official AmigaOS. This does not imply that there is any formal relation between AROS and Haage & Partner. AROS is an open source project, and anyone can use our code in their own projects provided they follow the license.
link (http://www.aros.org/documentation/users/faq.php#what-is-the-relation-between-aros-and-haage-partner)
But as Hyperion didn't get the sources from H&P, they properly didn't use it
-
I also recall a Kronos accusing me personally and publically of torpedoing Amithlon and the same Kronos refusing to rectify even though I took the time to clarify the situation to him in private mails, calmly pointing out to him that we and I had nothing to do with it.
Isn't that right Stefan?
Quite frankly your track-record is so appaling that it is a small miracle we don't ignore you altogether.
-
flame away, boys n girls...
shouldnt this thread be renamed 'The public vs Kronos'??
It seems to have absolutely no relation to the original point of the post.
-
Rodney, I pretty much agree that opensource projects are the most open about PR and new stuff in operating systems, and for the reasons you said.
However, it is spelt "secrets", not 'secreats' :-)
-
Im sure theres something about casting the first stone.
-
HyperionMP wrote:
No AROS code whatsoever was used for OS 4.
Which doesn't mean that you haven't even looked at it, which would be really hard to believe (in other words, I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you never ever LOOKED at the AROS source code).
-- EDITED --
I had forgotten that in AOS3.5/3.9 some parts of AROS have been used, and if anything it would be pretty stupid to reinvent the wheel for AOS4.x.
-- /EDITED
This is hardly surprising if you consider that AROS is only meant to be compatible with 3.1 at source-code level.
Oh dear :roll: ... one false statement and one contraddiction in the same sentence :-)
First of all, AROS is NOT meant to be compatible only at the source level, as what you can read on the AROS website states. Then, even if that were to be the case, your statement would contraddict your previous acknowledgement of MOS using AROS code because, as everyone knows, MOS IS binary compatible with AmigaOS.
-- EDITED --
Can't help but thinking that such false statements and contraddictions can't and must not go unnoticed by the rest of the people. It might seems something insignificant, but think about it more: why spreading lies? Why contraddicting oneself so blatantly?
Let me elaborate a bit more. First, HyperionMP says that MOS uses AROS code, and specifically modules which, as he himself says, are pretty large parts of AOS3.1. Now, we all know that MOS is binary compatible with AOS3.1, nonetheless in a successive post HyperionMP states that AOS4.x uses zero parts of AROS, and this is because, allegedly, AROS is not meant to be binary compatible with AOS3.1, which is 1) untrue and 2) in contraddiction with his previous statement...
Think about it people.
-
Wow this thread is a hot bed :-o At least there doesnt seem to be straight out personal insults, that's an improvement;-)
Anyhow good to see the Hyperion crew commenting in here. Bring on OS4! I can't wait to see some healthy competition between 2 available solutions!
(Subliminal message to Ben Hermans - I Ben Hermans want an OS4 kit for the Pegasos)
:-D
-
Aos4 on tour ... great, well done.
But this thread ......... :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-( :-(
-
@Ben
"calmy pointing" ?
It really is that lawyers do speak a language of there own ......
(he was more or less threating to pull me to court over that).
I also see no reason to pull my back my statements from back than, as I still think that Ainc's claim of Amithlon being unlicenced
(and since they never went to court over it, it is still just a claim) is connected to them (you) wanting to have the OS3.5/9-sources
(at your conditions).
Heck. it took AInc allmost a year after Amithlon was 1st sold till they made a public statement about it (the get-legal-or-shut-down-
speech), but even than they didn't dared to put names on those they wanted to blame.
This should have been (by far) the easiest to proove of all the accustations, and the release of Umilator would have brought some cash.
But still nothing, and you still want me that there wasn't any foul play towards H&P ? Sorry, but Mr Haage may be a
controversial character, but atleast his view on that made SOME sense.
-
@ DaveP
Im sure theres something about casting the first stone.
Apparently in the Amiga community that scores you ten extra points :-)
"All I said was, that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah!"
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by mikeymike on 2003/6/9 23:57:43
@ DaveP
Quote:
Im sure theres something about casting the first stone.
Apparently in the Amiga community that scores you ten extra points
"All I said was, that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah!"
"He said it again! Stone him!"
-
Well, thats not how i saw it.
Subject : Any REAL news from the OS4-tour ?
You say Rude, i say Kronos opinion that maybe there hasnt been any reay news. I disagree that there hasnt because i believe features lists, several interviews and screen shots to be enough. However, kronos was not insulting anyone, putting anyone down or behaving badly, so i can see how this can be used as flame bait.
Oh well now they finally dared to show OS4, and waht do we get ??
Again personal opinion, not insults thrown and no need for flame.
Another bunch of useless screenshots
Saaaaaaame....
Did anybody ask, what the were seeing ?
How much is still 68k, and how much is PPC ?
(and no, I don't care wether it is just a recompile away, I want to know what is NOW)
nothing wrong with it...
What did run ? 68k SW ? WOS ? OS4-native ?
Is P96 allready intregrated in in graphics/layers, or still patching the orginal libs ?
And how will that affect the AGA-compabilty ?
What HW was used ? SCSI (on the CS-PPC) ? Where new drivers used (emu or native ?), or
ist it still the Phase5-device running in emu ?
What GFX-card ? Zorro,PCI or CV-PPC ? And what others are supported RIGHT NOW ?
These should have been answered before the flames started, and the fact that they went says to me, people are more interested in flaming then stating some useful information and actualy makeing the community look functional for once.
And yes I know someone will come around and tell me that I ain't worth an answer
Well, he was right :) - seriously, someone could reply to this, but not with insults and flames.
(hi Hans-Jörg), but that doesn't change the fact that my questions are valid,
Ok, this, because he mentioned a specific person, prolly does diserve a flame. :) From the person whos name was spoken anyway :).
and that
STRAIGHT answer to them would give a much better insight in the state of things as a
million of screenshots could ever do.
Again, no reason for a flame, unless the freedens feel they ahve to or anyone related.
The fact is, kronos may have a reputation of being a keen MOS support. In real life, this my threaten them. Kronos on the most part, seems to be pretty intelegent, and from time to time, this shows :).
The fact that kronos asks some pretty tuff question shouldnt be taken as flamebait. The only reason people seem to take them that way, is because everyone feels a little too passionate about AmigaOS. Its like a religion. When someone questions your religion or asks some pretty tough questions, you may not like it. That does mean you start calling them names or abusing them. All you do is give them the answeres their looking for, or agree to disagree.
Look where the second post has goten us :). 100+ threat about flaming. This is silly.
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Well now you know how I see it, and I know now how you see it we clearly wont agree although I would point you to a few things:
1. The language used by Kronos is "rude".
2. The questions he asked, as I said, there was nothing wrong with them.
I think you are wrong, but then you think I am wrong ;-)
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I think you are wrong, but then you think I am wrong ;-)
If You are wrong, then I'm wrong too :-o
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I certainly don't think Im wrong ;-)
I think a post from Kronos phrased in courteous tones would have resulted in a thread of say..... oh 5 or six followup posts?
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>Which doesn't mean that you haven't even looked at it, >which would be really hard to believe (in other words, I >wouldn't believe you if you told me that you never ever >LOOKED at the AROS source code).
Quite frankly I could care less what you believe.
Why would we look at the AROS codebase when we have the entire OS 3.x codebase sitting in a CVS barring a few minor additions by H&P themselves?
If you are Fabio Allemagna, the self-styled GPL Warrior who doesn't even understand the GPL himself, I'm not surprised to see that contrived reasoning you come up with next.
Get a life Fabio.
You know as well as I do that AROS is not fully binary compatible with OS 3.1.
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You're a coward Stefan, that's all there is to it.
I never threatened you with any lawsuits.
What a waste of my time that would be to sue a non-entity like yourself.
With all the time you spend on the net making a total nuissance out of yourself, did you ever bother to contact H&P or Bernie Meyer to find out if there was any substance to your idiotic claims that Hyperion had anything to do with the whole Amithlon situation?
No, ofcourse not.
It's far more pleasant to throw around wild and unfounded accusations than to find out that your moronic conspiracy theories are nonsense.
From now on I'll be ignoring you, just like I should have done from day 1.
Too bad I cannot hold you to your promise of going Beos you made on ANN once.
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HyperionMP wrote:
Which doesn't mean that you haven't even looked at it, >which would be really hard to believe (in other words, I >wouldn't believe you if you told me that you never ever >LOOKED at the AROS source code).
Quite frankly I could care less what you believe.
I wouldn't have expected anything different, and, quite frankly, I don't care that you don't care.
Why would we look at the AROS codebase when we have the entire OS 3.x codebase sitting in a CVS barring a few minor additions by H&P themselves?
Just because it exists, and many issues that you've certainly had to face have been faced by the AROS developers. Come on, dude, people are not stupid like you want to believe they are.
If you are Fabio Allemagna,
Nope, I'm Fabio Alemagna. Learn how to spell my name correctly, thanks :-)
the self-styled GPL Warrior who doesn't even understand the GPL himself,
LOL :-) There he goes with his personal attacks and bullshit :-) For one who doesn't understand the GPL, it's a quite big achievement to obtain the guilty modules to be removed from the guilty software. But I really want you to PROVE your claims, for once, so I'll wait for you to show me what you're talking about.
I'm not surprised to see that contrived reasoning you come up with next.
Yeah, right... :-) Did you even think for a moment that I was waiting for other kind (which means "reasonable") answers?
Get a life Fabio.
How nice of you to suggest me that... but thanks, I already have a pretty happy one. I don't think the same can be said about yours, though. (DaveP, still defending Hyperion after such words? Shame on you, if you are).
You know as well as I do that AROS is not fully binary compatible with OS 3.1.
Dude, that's not what you said. You said that AROS is not MEANT to be binary compatible with AOS, which is an outright lie, and the AROS webpage contraddicts your very same words. There's only one place where AROS is not compatible by design and that place is 99% of the times not touched by applications, but only by the shell and by filesystems (which hasn't stopped us from porting filesystems from AmigaOS without almost changing one line of code in them). But even if it was that what you were referring to, you're still in contraddiction with your very same words, because it seems that this incompatibility hasn't stopped MOS from using AROS and be binary compatible with AOS.
Now, dude, what about you getting some clue and even a better life?
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@DaveP
You are way out on the field, if You ask him
(http://home1.stofanet.dk/hnl_dk/davep.gif)
;-)
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Which doesn't mean that you haven't even looked at it, which would be really hard to believe (in other words, I wouldn't believe you if you told me that you never ever LOOKED at the AROS source code).
Which goes straight back to what Hyperion have been saying on the previous page - whatever they say, someone will reply saying that they are lying, hell - two successive posts by two different people at Hyperion saying no code from AROS was used ... sheesh
Given your response, I am glad that OS4 is not using AROS code. Which is a shame as I used to download the AROS floppy images and run them, play with the demos, etc, all the time. :(
Grow up, people, and that goes to both sides. People who have been calling for a full OS4 demonstration running on hardware, with full interface, showing 68k applications running, etc, have been shown just that and more by this demonstration. I haven't heard anything about stability or whatever yet though, I am sure that we will at some point. In addition, we see that OS4, graphically, has all the features and more that were so harped on about in MorphOS recently, like gradients and AA fonts, etc.
My questions for Hyperion would be:
1) How much work has to be done to get it running at beta-quality on the AmigaOne?
2) (as a refresher) Compared to the original specifications for OS4.0, what are the differences in the specification for the OS4.0 that will be released
3) After the release of 4.0, and after a long drinking session to celebrate, what will you be implementing for OS 4.1, and how long do you envisage (allowing for having to do more contract work to get money, etc) it taking before it is available.
4) Any chance of some Imagine / ImageFX / etc benchmarks of the 68k emulator in OS4.0?
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All:
KEEP the subject on AMIGA OS 4/MOS/operating system, no more analyzing about "Kronos" said this or that/personal wars or you'll see your post disappear.
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@Fabio
No Im not defending Ben Hermans, I was defending the Friedens. I was just reading this and was thinking of Redrumloa saying "locky locky" when I got to Bens last few posts.
I don't know why you felt that you had to bring my name into this at all. Perhaps if I had leapt to Bens defense here then it would be justifiable. I realised you used the speculative "if you are" but really, that is a big ole line you are starting to string out with some tasty bait on the end ;-)
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@hnl_dk
Outstanding! ROLFMAO! Can I borrow that pic for an avatar?
@moderator
Waaaaay too late for that. That thread is dead, fred.
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But I really want you to PROVE your claims, for once, so I'll wait for you to show me what you're talking about.
Crying wolf are we? Why can't you simply believe that Hyperion, who are professional programmers, simply did not look at the AROS source code, etc.
Hell, given that you think that he doesn't know much about AROS at all, don't you think that pretty much shows that he hasn't paid any attention to AROS, including the source code?
AROS doesn't run on PPC machines, but various parts of AROS when compiled for PPC and run in a different operating system will run fine. That doesn't mean that anybody is wrong in this stupid, retarded argument.
PS: I remember the old AROS web site used to say a lot about being source code compatible only with AmigaOS applications (once completed) - probably because they would have to be recompiled to run on x86.
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Outstanding! ROLFMAO! Can I borrow that pic for an avatar?
Of course ... would be an honour for me :-D
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Thank you :-) Best Miffy avatar yet!
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Which goes straight back to what Hyperion have been saying on the previous page - whatever they say, someone will reply saying that they are lying, hell - two successive posts by two different people at Hyperion saying no code from AROS was used ... sheesh
Sorry, but given the past experience with Hyperion, I can honestly say that I am more inclined to believe what the logic says than what they say, specially when in that same post there's an outright lie and a blatant contraddiction. It just happens that they're not trustable people, given their track record.
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>"Building up one of those "most useless threads" at speeds unknown to mankind"
Pretty much guessed it since page 2 of the thread or so. I guess the master knew what he was talking about ;-)
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Threads have to be useful? My god that leaves us with what... 3 threads since Amiga.org first went online? :-o
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I don't know why you felt that you had to bring my name into this at all. Perhaps if I had leapt to Bens defense here then it would be justifiable. I realised you used the speculative "if you are" but really, that is a big ole line you are starting to string out with some tasty bait on the end
Well, then I'm sorry, I obviously understood that you were questioning Krono's claims that he's been treaded badly by Hyperion, but if you were only talking about the Friendens, then I'm sorry.
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@DaveP
You mr, should be awarded with the "humourist of the year" for 2003.
Rock on
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Sorry, but given the past experience with Hyperion, I can honestly say that I am more inclined to believe what the logic says than what they say, specially when in that same post there's an outright lie and a blatant contraddiction. It just happens that they're not trustable people, given their track record.
This is what you are calling a lie:
"AROS is only meant to be compatible with 3.1 at source-code level."
Indeed, this is true as this is what used to be said on the AROS site before (I don't know about now) ... the statement does not preclude AROS also being compatible at the binary level for OS legal applications when AROS is running on the same architecture as the application (i.e., 68k, for which AROS has not been updated in yonks).
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Crying wolf are we? Why can't you simply believe that Hyperion, who are professional programmers, simply did not look at the AROS source code, etc.
How about learning how to read, before jumping to my neck? I think it's pretty obvious that I was referring to his personal attack, and AROS was out of discussion in that phrase (btw, notice how Ben Hermans throws personal attacks in the discussion when he realizes he just can't continue on the right path).
Hell, given that you think that he doesn't know much about AROS at all, don't you think that pretty much shows that he hasn't paid any attention to AROS, including the source code?
When I say "YOU" I don't necessarily mean "HIM", I mean "YOU" as in "You guys who are working on AOS4". I can't believe that no one of them has ever looked at AROS, it just makes no sense. I for one know that Olaf Barthel has commented on the AROS filesystem interface (and said he likes it better over the AOS one), and Olaf works on AOS4.
AROS doesn't run on PPC machines, but various parts of AROS when compiled for PPC and run in a different operating system will run fine. That doesn't mean that anybody is wrong in this stupid, retarded argument.
What is that supposed to mean?
PS: I remember the old AROS web site used to say a lot about being source code compatible only with AmigaOS applications (once completed) - probably because they would have to be recompiled to run on x86.
That's wrong as well: look here (http://sbb.hepe.com/background.html#1.2)
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Thank you Best Miffy avatar yet!
Are you sure this is not more You ;-)
(http://home1.stofanet.dk/hnl_dk/davep_new.gif)
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LOL! Now if you could make the boing a bit smaller it would be spot on ;-)
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(http://home1.stofanet.dk/hnl_dk/davep_new2.gif)
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......just a bit bigger
;-) Just kidding! Do you mind if I use it on other sites where Miffy is A REGISTERED AVATAR OF dAVEp?
Damn caps lock.
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of course You may :-) Would like to see it at AmigaWorld.net ;-)
Have just made it to 256colour GIF ... half the size in kb
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I have read all of this thread, and can only say this:
I belive that Hyperion is hard working guys, but I also belive that they damage themselves more than they know, by using so much energy in these forums.
I'm not aware of all these technical issues that's going on, but I can certainly see when somebody should stop being active here, and start keeping their concentration on other things (OS4, etc)
I'm quite disturbed about my beloved Amiga and the brilliant OS, when I see the main developers engaging in flamewars, harsh discussions, etc. That could potentionally get them upset and, have an impact on their future commitment.
I sincerly asks Hyperion to drop being active in these kinda forums. Stay on target, and don't ever let anything or anyone get to your nerves. Please.
It's making me nerveous. Seems like you get yourselves involved in hard discussions, and I'm really afraid that it gets to you sooner or later, and perhaps does an impact on your joy for the AmigaOS.
Please don't let that happen Hyperion. Stay away from these slaugterhouses, and stay tuned at your "higher goals".
anyone who is working with amiga projects right now, should consider leaving the community asap, and focus all their concentration on getting the job done.
Speak only when absolutely neccesary, and refrain from all attacks and flamewars.
Remember the "higher plan"
Thanks for your brilliant work Hyperion, and all other who's contributing to the "master plan".
I love you guys and gals :-)
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Miffy should be the OS4 mascot :-) . Honestly, cool avatar Dave :-) 8-) .
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I was just reading this and was thinking of Redrumloa saying "locky locky" when I got to Bens last few posts.
It's getting real close to locky locky:-) If this thread doesnt get back on topic of OS4 news etc soon it will be. The question is which moderator will pull the trigger first:-D
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AmigaWorld doesn't like the THX remastered Miffy, still about a k too big.
Hey so we are offtopic but its Amiga.org so thats OK.
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[duty]
Hey I really like the AOS4 theme they have done so far, and the news is great.
[/duty]
Right that should give us what, 5 maybe 6 posts before locky lock?
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That should be enough ;-)
(http://home1.stofanet.dk/hnl_dk/davep_new3.gif)
And thanks for your signature :-D
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Bodie wrote:
Miffy should be the OS4 mascot :-) . Honestly, cool avatar Dave :-) 8-) .
Ta! As Ive said before, insufficient cleavage to be the AROS mascot. :-P
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whoa,
I'm surprised noone brought in any cavemen (or troll for that matter) analogies. This has to be the most useless thread I have seen in the six months I've been reading/posting on Amiga.org. And no, no offence to anyone who has posted, I'm not trying to criticise or say I could do better... :-D
So what was the question again? :-P
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Gentlemen, what we have here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach....
-clank, locky-