Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: SimoAmi on June 07, 2003, 10:47:19 PM
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This is the concept I came up with almost a year ago, but no one has ever paid attention!
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/OS4GUIDesignNG4.jpg) (http://simoami.com)
[color=AAB0B0](Sorry for the long-size picture)[/color]
Window and Dialog Resizing illustrated:
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/mouseop1.gif)
Mouse Behaviour:
(http://simoami.com/images/shots/mouseclick.gif)
Also:
Main Menu dynamically illustrated (http://simoami.com/titlebar.html) - Updated June 8/1:49pm
[color=AAB0B0](Flash 5+ plugin required)[/color]
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Dang ! ...
Looks cool !
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and this was the GUI Toolkit:
(http://simoami.com/images/shots/AmigaNGBoopsiGadgets.jpg)
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:-o
Very smooth...
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Really nice :). remember me some gnome theme.
phil
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:-o
Looks great, but the colours reminds me of Linux. That's about the only thing I'd change in the prefs.
Very nice indeed :-D
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me sa liiiike :-D
'cept that Verdana (or is it Tahoma) font in the file browser thingy :-o
---edit---
Ah, I see you changed that font, looks very good :-)
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Very nice indeed. Yet, it's not the first ignored graphic art for OS4... They know what they are doing. I heard repeatedly that they care little about the GUI look...
Man, the more I look at it the more I love it.
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@SimoAmi
Once OS4 is out, how about converting this look into a theme?
Then maybe contact Hyperion with a view to having a little input in the future?
-john
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I think it's important that everyone knows about the concept.
Kind of developing higher expectations on the user and developer end.
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You have made a superb concept design there!
You must have spent a long while making that...and it shows!
I would urge you to email some of these pics to hyperion!
Port as much of this design to OS4 as you can.
CnlPepper - Nice :)
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Wow! Beautiful!
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im not much of a fan of gui mock ups
i cant see why people are getting all excited about(fake) guis
and not background OS funcioning and efficency
i like good OS's and fast compact GUI's
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Its very nice indeed except for the Tahoma which someone else pointed out which looks like Windoze and there is definitely some Linux similarities there I would get rid of. The shell window looks fantastic... certainly makes working in the shell more exciting than just the plain gray windows we have at the moment.
Well done :-)
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Staticman wrote:
The shell window looks fantastic... certainly makes working in the shell more exciting than just the plain gray windows we have at the moment.
You may notice formatted results in the shell screen.
The idea here is to have an html capable shell engine, where commands can return html tables as aalternative. Would be original and user friendly!
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iamaboringperson wrote:
im not much of a fan of gui mock ups
i cant see why people are getting all excited about(fake) guis
and not background OS funcioning and efficency
i like good OS's and fast compact GUI's
I would replace "(fake) guis" with "new GUI concepts".
I respect you opinion but GUI has become an undeniable part of any operating system.
OSX, XP, GNome...etc.
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This GUI is visually very pleasing. Those widgets on
the titlebar are interesting.
Looking at it I found something that under some
perspective could be considered a flaw.
"Workbench" is called like that because that's
what it wants to represent. Is the metaphore
used by AmigaOS to provide an easy to learn,
easy to use visual user interface.
"Workbench" is different from "Desktop" in that
it represents programs as a set of "tools", they
are stored in wooden or metal drawers as in a
real technician's workbench.
Workbench has drawers, not folders. Programs
differentiate visualy from data in a clear way:
A program is a hammer or a screwdriver.
A data file is a nail or a screw.
Each kind of data has a one or some tools that
can operate it.
It would be a good thing to try to extend this
metaphore and use it everywhere in the system
with the coherency it deserves. It may be
simply a convention, but Amiga creators chose
it because of the kind of apps are run on Amiga.
Olaf Barthel was talking in an interview about this
and suggested it was nearly the time to re-invent
the Workbench with modern ideas to make it
better. Didn't specify if it should be done from the
ground-up, or only a slight improvement.
Trying to renew the Workbench when creating
concept-drawings like that is a good thing,
let's try to achieve some sort of coherency too.
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SimoAmi wrote:
iamaboringperson wrote:
im not much of a fan of gui mock ups
i cant see why people are getting all excited about(fake) guis
and not background OS funcioning and efficency
i like good OS's and fast compact GUI's
I would replace "(fake) guis" with "new GUI concepts".
I respect you opinion but GUI has become an undeniable part of any operating system.
OSX, XP, GNome...etc.
sure, im not really anti-gui :-)
but i see that sort of thing as more art(which is fine) than 'puters :-)
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@xisp
You brought an good point here.
I used drawers in one of my older designs, but didn't think the metaphore.
I think it mostly affects the wording/structure.
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This would do fine then! :)
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/fileexplorer.gif)
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what about a mac os style of tree?
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That looks great, it would be nice if we could have something looking that good and hopefully still keep it efficient and responsive.
I particularly like the narrow font you've used in the tree of the Amiga "explorer", great for long file names.
good work :-)
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Well, the only question to ask now is, when will we be able to obtain a skin that does that? And when can we get the icons?
Surly, if this was developed into a skin, i'd think most people would use it
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Well, since OS4 will be skinnable, if I bought an A1w/ OS4, I'd download it, maybe if it came with like a hundred others I'd even pay for it!
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Here is my immidiate reaction on that mockup gui..
* Very pretty
* Too Control Panel'ish like on the Palette Preferences. The Tabs are just glowing look-at-windows-and-draw-amiga-version.
* Too Win Explorer'ish on the Amiga Browser... Although I admit win32's explorer is quite handy. The button bar is just waste of screen space though.
* Too much details in the scroll bars. Simplicity is gone in your scrollbars.. The dark grey doesn't fit in.
* Too much theme-like in the windows titlebars. (Gradients, text outlines)
* Too much stuff in the titlebar - but I suppose you wanted to just show what should be possible..
Overall, it's very close to my vision.. But it does look a little like a theme and not a default look.. :-)
It's very nice - I am amazed I missed this one...
Keep up the good work and send it in to everyone (A inc, Hyperion)... If you make a descriptive text why a certain thing would be done this way and that way I'm sure you will make one or another designer come up with some idea even remotely related and by that you have make your contribution to the next GUI.
Peter
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@simoami
??? im confused, im not sure where i recall the info from, but i was under the impression you were having some input into the new look and feel of OS4's gui???
Comparing this shot to the OS4 pics that have recently appeared in the news here, your gadgets and esp the screen title bar are definitely far better. Id love to see someone implement configurable docks on the title bar as it would be a big plus above the normal window/screen based docks we have. i can only see a couple of things i would change. The window borders look too linux (maybe a hybrid linux/macx look would work, who knows?) and the tabs as shown in the palette preferences would look nice merged with the sheet connected perhaps? (eg remove the barrier pixels)
(http://www.amigamonkey.com/ami/content/images/simo_ami_os4_tab_01.jpg)
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@TeoTwin
Well, I didn't get my hands on the new intuition system yet. That would have given me a chance to come up with a preset.
I was thinking Hyperion would send me a beta release once they make one.
I agree the Tabs aren't the best. It was a quick and early design that I was supposed to rework.
Feel free to make changes! I know you have nice skills ;-)
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Unfortunately this is what OS 4 *should* look like.
I am sorry to say I was not at all impressed with the new OS 4 screenshots. It looks very much like OS 3.9. Same icons.
The screenshots shown didn't have any "wow" factor. The mockup you made did, and I probably would immediately plunk down the required cash for OS 4 plus an AmigaOne if it was going to look like that.
Hyperion should definately re-think what they have while there is still time and give your mock up serious consideration.
HammerD
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I just posted in another thread congratulating the new OS4 look, but after further observation, I really am beginning to think that its a very dated OS3.9 lookalike.
If OS4 looked anything like SimoAmi's contribution then I would order OS4 in an instant, as would others who are not Amiga savvy users (newcomers). Unfortunately this is not the case and the Hyperion may lose alot of ground and potential customers because of their apparent disregard for todays very competitive GUI standards. A GUI doesn't make an OS, but it sure sells the idea of one. And that cannot be denied.
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@simoami
I think its time we got away from the standard layout out windows. Its old and cluttered. osx seems to have made it half way but ended up becoming too simple in functionalty (in my opinion)
Following it a sample layout i thought of a while back implemented on your window design (sorry i butchered it and my fonts are crap). The major differences between my idea and normal window layouts are:
1. The title bar is not a visibly seperate entity than the window itself (ala osx) as i believe a visually seperate division just add clutter when many windows are open. This way its much faster for the eye to recognise a complete window
2. I thought that standard window functions could be grouped in a recessed area with things such as menus (in window like windows), buttons, status bars etc. This keeps extra things like status bars off the bottom of the window (havent put in a status on my example yet) One thing also worth considering it putting the everyday button normally at the bottom of the screen like "OK" and "CANCEL" somewhere in the recess group, but i havent thought of a good way to do this (or if it would be too hard to use) so its not in the pic yet.
3. One extra window gadget i though of is a window tab, as in my example its actually within the recessed group. Works the same as normal tabs but the entire lower window is within it. There would still be a need to normal inner tabs (eg where the entire window should not be one tab, it would not be appropriate for the image i posted just above as the entire window is not to be grouped in the tabs etc etc) but for simple preferences screens and simple apps i think it would be a fantastic way to simplify the layout without the normal clutter look of inner tabs.
4. My proudest idea is also the visually smallest one. The super gadget replaces all of the resize, maximise, minimise, move to front/back buttons on windows. The idea is that the different click you can do on it will perform all of the same functions, i.e:
left click + drag = move window
right click + drag = resize window
single left click = move to front
single right click = move to back
left double click = maximise
right double click = minimise
six in one, All from one icon!
The only thing you would have to get used to is resizeing windows from the top right not the bottom right.
(http://www.amigamonkey.com/ami/content/images/simo_ami_os4_newwindow_01.jpg)
feel free to redo my design if you like, im sure you can improve on it substantially. Perhaps we could get a list of killer ideas for a gui and sent it of to the official channels?
btw, why dont you post your pics to the images area, and put the background pic up a seperate pic in the backgrounds area as well :-)
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@TeoTwin
Thanks for bringing additional ideas
Perhaps we could set up a some pages to illustrate new concepts.
The resize idea idea is good but if the window is large or larger than the screen, you would have to scroll to reach it each time you want to do some basic window operations. The idea can definitely be developed and shown in a scripted flash movie.
The tabs look good, although we don't need a menu bar. Right clicking on an active window/dialog would show a menu on the main top bar, as in the regular OS.
This is what I was thinking of for windows and dialogs resizing:
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/mouseop1.gif)
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I have always loved SimoAmi's (and Mark Rickan's too) work and I would love to see this or something similar as a future look.
But, guys, give Hyperion some credit here. They're getting near the end result of the hard job of doing the port to PPC native first. They've done excellent jobs so far.
Once the initial port/release is out there, I'd love to see an Intuition & Workbench reworking as an update or "next" version (maybe 4.1 or 4,2?) with hooks to replace ANY and all graphic display pieces, in order for talented guys like Simo and Mark to create killer themes.
Maybe it'll happen. I'm sure if you guys, who are pushing for Amiga/Hyperion/OS4 to succeed, holler loud enough someone at Amiga and Hyperion, other than me, will notice your wants. :-)
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Firstly, great work! Second, I like the resize idea.
The official screens are an improvement, but in all honestly look pants when compared to a modern OS.
SimoAmi has made a good effort at it..
You can't REALLY blame Hyperion for the look of OS4.. they're practically porting / re-engineering an entire OS! They have made great strides in improving the 'hidden workings' of the OS. This is crucial...
Crucial to make developers consider coding for the OS.
However, indeedy how about getting immediate funds from us, joe public?? Make it look nice, that's the answer. If it looks pretty, people will want it..
I guess they're prioritising.. but it still looks a bit old and stale... There aren't enough images in e.g. listviews, window titles or tabs. MUI had it yeeears ago!
Also, here's an OBVIOUS missing detail in OS4's GUI - centering the buttons (save / cancel etc.) at the bottom of the screen!
And a good usability feature - allowing for direct manipulation in the gradient setting pane!
i.e. rotate a sphere with a line emitted from the center to display the gradient angle... updated in real time!
OS4 looks indeed configurable GUI - wise, but is it enough - will SimoAmi be able to remotely re-create his concept??
Still, as I said, kudos to Hyperion... you have done a lot more, I am sure, than just updated the look of the OS. I wait patiently for 4.1/4.2 (and 4.0, hehe!).
Thing is, it may have the nicest personality but who goes for personality at first sight?? (and it's personality has somewhat been improved, but still needs more work).
OS4 has had it's first facelift.. now it only needs a few more session with the plastic surgeon to get it looking all curvy and seductive..
Only with future OS releases can Amiga even CONSIDER making a comeback.
Just some ideas.. what do u think??
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@HMetal
But, guys, give Hyperion some credit here
Of course, the screen shots just released have substantially eased my fear that the previous pastel-bench ;-) theme would not be the default. And its good to boot, a substantial improvment! My post are not comments born of critisism, they are ideas born of dreams.
To be honest, the functionality i suggest would probably be unfeasable as present anyway, as its too far off what we have currently and may require some substantial development of intuition. Maybe the multi-gadget (yes ive just renamed it from super gadget) would be the only able to be done easily? So as far as having these sort of enhancements for aos4, i think not! perhaps aos5? Time tol get some ideas together and start hollering at hyperion/a-inc as you suggest.
Mitch.
ps, who is Mark Rickan, does anyone know where can i browse some work of his?
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@teotwin wrote:
Mitch.
ps, who is Mark Rickan, does anyone know where can i browse some work of his?
Mark Rickan is my partner for most successful work ;-)
Together we won the Club Amiga Logo contest and made the t-shirt design after that. We also made OS4 Banner that you see here on A.org. The geared boing ball is his idea.
We worked on several web projects and he has great inspirations too.
Posting this GUI concepts at the same time as AmigaOS screeshots is a pure coincidence.
Hyperion guys are doing a great job and should be rewarded for their efforts.
I just thought it's not right to let many hours/days of hard work go away !
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And yes, this is not just a simple mock-up but rather a visual representation of ideas that may inspire developers and designers as well.
If you can display Flash 5 Clips from your browser, take a look at this:
Main Menu dynamically illustrated (http://simoami.com/titlebar.html)
You can click the arrows on top to display menus/switch screens.
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@SimoAmi:
I for one had always hoped that you would be the one to do the new OS4 theme. Seems they chose someone else (the mysterious person we don't know).
Quite frankly, in the 4 screens that were published now, i can't see any work of a graphics artist (unless you call texturing backgrounds and window bars with the classic dull grey MWB pattern work of a graphic artist).
It's quite sad.
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@ SimoAmi and TeoTwin
I really like your ideas - and the look of the GUI is simply fantastic. I hope some of your talents are put to good use.
Rude!
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I've always loved that concept and really want it as the default look :-D
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it's a shame the concept looks so much better then the real thing... as-is I dont think I'll touch AOS4... I'd buy it on general principal if it looked like the concept...
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@SimoAmi
The mockup is great, i love that title bar.
When it comes to the windows and dialogs resizing, i really think that the controls should be visible even when not hovering, perhaps ghosted or semi transparent but stil visible, and it would be useful if it was possible to klick on the text instead of just the button when you switch from workbench to fruityloops in the dynamic title bar flash thingy.
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Sure SimoAmi's mockup is nice (although i don't like the HTML shell idea at all, and I DO NOT want windows style explorer windows), but I don't get all the people saying that the OS4 default look doesn't look "modern" enough.
I think if you compare the OS4 default theme to the OS X or XP default themes, OS4 easily looks better. IMHO, of course.
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the Icons look like a 1980's dream... not a 1990's dream... let alone a 00's dream...
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What do "21st Century icons" look like?
I quite like the new OS4 screenshots. They're not super-exciting admittedly, but then come on! This is the Amiga community we're talking about! The amount of bizarre themes you guys use, why do you care? You're going ot customise it, just like I will!
I just hope OS4 is as responsive as its predecessors.
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MOS looks modern... this mockup it looks modern...the AOS4 shots? the icons are old fashioned...the should hire a graphics designer to make them some icons...
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There's just no pleasing some people is there?
1. The new look is only about 80% complete - this has been said many times.
2. Ever heard of THEMES - if you don't like the look then change it.
Ian
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Can everyone remember that the big changes in the GUI will be coming in later versions of the OS - but the features already in (ie the gradient/bitmap skinning) are great. I personally think that the OS4.x team should be looking at new ways of doing things like viewing folders instead of parroting windoze like Linux desktops. The big changes in functionality can only come with a new WB.
Besides, I like the default theme :-D
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Like Zudobug, I would like to see a ¨hyperion os dev team¨ theme :-) .
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meerschaum wrote:
MOS looks modern... this mockup it looks modern...the AOS4 shots? the icons are old fashioned...the should hire a graphics designer to make them some icons...
I'm gonna be blunt here.
MOS by default looks ####.
The icons are overstyled overrendered rubbish. I spent 5 mins trying to work out what the hell some of the icons on MOS were trying to be when I tried a Pegasos out.
In fact the best looking Ambient screenshot I've yet seen has ripped MacOS X icons.
Matt Chaputt and Mason have created some beautiful, practical icons over the years, that's why I'm glad Glowicons has stayed in here (and Mason has provided icons for AROS)
But then again lets face it:- It's AmigaOS to you just HAVE to slag it off.
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alx wrote:
Can everyone remember that the big changes in the GUI will be coming in later versions of the OS - but the features already in (ie the gradient/bitmap skinning) are great.
I can recall a little while ago people cooing over the latest MUI shots with the gradients. Making out as if this made MUI the most beautiful GUI in the universe. Well guys AOS 4 has it by default too. (and Zune got it like a day later :-) )
BTW speaking of MUI did anyone else notice in the pic with the MUI prefs there was somthing that looked like a windows style menu within the window? That ain't right!!!
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BTW speaking of MUI did anyone else notice in the pic with the MUI prefs there was somthing that looked like a windows style menu within the window? That ain't right!!!
Eye, I hate that on windows, waste of space and adds more clutter. Thankfully looking at the prefs that appears to be changable.
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>BTW speaking of MUI did anyone else notice in the
>pic with the MUI prefs there was somthing that
>looked like a windows style menu within the
>window? That ain't right!!!
That's nothing new. That's just a MUI 3.9 feature and
known for over two years now (if you had installed
the MUI PPC version for MorphOS 0.4 two years ago).
You can attach the menu where ever you want to the
window and if you don't like it you can turn it off.
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Hello SimoAmi,
Looking great as always :-D It'd be nice if you could provide some graphical sparkle to AOS.
Just a little constuctive critisism :-) :-
The screen titlebar is way too cluttered, it should be simpler maybe just a clock and a screen gadget. OS X keeps it's menubar very simple with only a couple of items for example
I'm sorry, but I don't like the icons too much, although they are much nicer than the ones posted before. It'd be cool if you could hook up with Matt or Mason and throw some ideas about. I love glowicons, but there is always foom for that little extra sheen. :-D
I don't think that HTML shell would be a good idea. This may sound old fashioned but, fixed-width clear font is the way to go.
The gadgets are just amazing :-) However, the tabs don't look like they are connected to the object they are tabbing. Also the window scrollbars look out of place compared to everything else. Replacing them with the scrollbars used on the other gadgets would solve this. I'd also have a continuous progress bar as well as the range on non-continuous progress bars you have designed (if only for the sake of compatibilty)
Also don't forget that OS 4.0 is a limited release and some of the concepts here would require a lot of re-working (and would also probably break older software- for example stuff that expects window borders)
Otherwise it's amazing. Although everytime I look it does remind me of winXP slighty and I'm not sure why.
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zacman wrote:
That's nothing new. That's just a MUI 3.9 feature and
known for over two years now (if you had installed
the MUI PPC version for MorphOS 0.4 two years ago).
You can attach the menu where ever you want to the
window and if you don't like it you can turn it off.
Ah cool, although not something I'd ever use.
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I don't get it?! Why are some people moaning over the grey colour??? "It's grey, it's grey, oh my god, it's grey!" ;-)
How hard is it to remove the background picture and change it to white, and voila, you got Workbench XP ;-) .
Then I guess you want unselected windows to have a lighter blue colour too. Well that is really something that is hard to change.
And why not copy the default background-picture from XP too. There are really some xp-gadgets that can be used.
Blah... I think there's to much complaining going on.
And no, I don't think that this picture is perfect either even if some elements looks good. You just can't satisfy everyone. They made AOS 4 look like AOS 3.x with a modern style still very configurable. What is so wrong about that?
I don't think that the ex-amiga-friends of mine would have liked WB more if it looks like a completely new system. It would have the opposit effect. They like AOS and remembers it from OS 3.0/3.1. If it looks like Linux or something completely different they certenly won't be intrested.
I love the way AOS looks, even though OS 3.9 looks oldish. AOS 4.0 looks great in the default look (yes, my opinion offcourse). :-)
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Me like! How about a BisualPrefs compatible theme?
Yes please!
:-)
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teotwin wrote:
4. My proudest idea is also the visually smallest one. The super gadget replaces all of the resize, maximise, minimise, move to front/back buttons on windows. The idea is that the different click you can do on it will perform all of the same functions, i.e:
I think the fact that it's visually the smallest one is a problem - what happens when it's covered by another window? At the least, it should be possible to move a window to front by clicking anywhere on a window (preferably with a doubleclick - I can't stand Windows' single-click-to-front). And being able to resize on any boundary is useful too (as someone else says, for situations whether the window is partly off-screen - talking of which, is it known if this will be possible in OS4?)
And I think menus at the top of the screen are better than within windows (it's quicker and easier to shoot the mouse to the top of the screen than it is to guide it in to menus attached to windows).
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I love both SimoAmi's and Teowin's work.
They would be great as OS4 presets.
Though I think it would be for 4.1 , as 4.0
seems very close to completion.
Hyperion may be more flexable to talk and work
with GUI concepts now the the main struggle is out
of the way.
I hope something may come of your work.
Best of luck.
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unchartered:
About your footnote.. yes it was on the Music for the Jilted Generation (which ROCKS) but the sample actually came from LAWNMOWER MAN!
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I don't think the idea of generating HTML results is the shell engine would be hard to implement.
It's mainly for spacing tabbed results, font-coloring, bolding and font size. maybe links as well
It doesn't have to be completely html compliant and then the programmer would have to follow the specs.
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And this shows a mouse behaviour when clicked:
(http://simoami.com/images/shots/mouseclick.gif)
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SnowBord wrote:
unchartered:
About your footnote.. yes it was on the Music for the Jilted Generation (which ROCKS) but the sample actually came from LAWNMOWER MAN!
Are you sure? All my videos are in storage ATM so I can't check, but I don't remember that bit. It doesn't really sound like Pierce Brosnan in the sample.
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I like the idea of a shell that uses proportionally spaced fonts instead of monospaced fonts.
It only needs to implement some type of simple layout language - implemented in XML, and similar to XHTML, whilst styling would be done with CSS to achieve a consistent output regardless of applications (i.e., all tables would look the same). I doubt the implementation would take long, although changing all the applications to output in the new format would be a hassle - I'd imagine that a shell like this would add a new switch by default to all executed commands to tell them to output formatted text instead of plain text.
It is just that there are too many other, more important, things to do than something like that!
Regarding the original screenshot - it looks nice but is a little too fancy - any chance of posting an image without the textured backdrops (i.e., plain, like a default configuration). I also do not like the scrollbars - too much darkness in them. I like the tree view though. I prefer the OS4 window borders to your window borders. The tab looks funny, as if it isn't attached to the content it is attached to.
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SimoAmi wrote:
This would do fine then! :)
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/fileexplorer.gif)
Great!
That other one was a tad too Windows'ish for my taste :-D
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The shell would have to still default to a monospaced font for legacy applications that expect things to line up, but it could switch to proportional if a program outputs XML, I suppose.
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I like the shots of the mock ups. If there is anything I decide I don't like (pending I was actually able to use it in OS4) then I would change it because thats why I loved the Amiga. Not how it looked, I was always able to change that, but how it functioned. That if something in the system wasn't right I was able to dive right in and fix it. I don't like the icons? Make new ones. It was fast, reliable (so long as a program was written well) and just plain fun to use. Great work, hope to see your efforts pay off.
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i hate metal
i prefer a marble background
got any mockups with marble backs?
or just plain grey/white?
somthing really profesional
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@mdwh2
I think the fact that it's visually the smallest one is a problem - what happens when it's covered by another window?
Thats a problem that already exists for all of the window gadgets anyway, the multi-gadget would not try to solve this, all its doing is reducing the number of gadgets and clutter. I agree with you in that anybody that dares remove doubleclick-to-front functionality should be shot, its a life saver. And as for the window resizing, a modifier key such as linux has would be ideal. for those that dont know how it works, you hold in the key and drag the left mouse button and the window is moved, hold the key and drag the right button and the closest side/corner of the window is resized with the mouse movement. Very nice infact.
Ive just had an alternative idea for the multi-gadget to replace the resizing. The right-click + drag could be used to bring up a menu with standard window functions like snapshot, etc... Following is an example of what a web browser could look like in my window template (good use of window tabs), and the multigadget being right clicked and dragged for the window function menu:
click to enlarge
(http://www.amigamonkey.com/ami/content/images/aos_multigadget_example_01_small.jpg) (http://www.amigamonkey.com/ami/content/images/aos_multigadget_example_01.jpg)
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This thread has sky rocketed! :-D
Almost hard to keep up. Is there a possibility that the screenshots that have been posted (and not posted) could be put in a folder somewhere so we can look at them more closely? And maybe put some descriptive text along with them? - Describing what the different gadgets and buttons are.
I would really like to take my time to look at these concepts and provide feedback. Only wish I had my Amiga and the "concepts" so I could try them out.
I've also posted some feedback in the other thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2759).
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A while back there was a thread on "dream" features for aos, but i cant seem to find it. Perhaps its time now to collate everyones ideas and have them centrally stored and organised so that before too long we can approach hyperion to put forward all the kick arse ideas for the next incarnation of aos, perhaps before aos4.2?
We just need to host it somewhere. It should be somewhere that is controled by someone who has a passion for improving the os gui. That rules out a.org. I could set up an area at amigamonkey.com if need be but my server is slow and unreliable. Any other suggestions? simoami.com?
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Can we PLEASE start URL'ing huge pictures!
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@Teotwin:
That screenshot just looks AMAZING (that background is wonderful). This looks so much better than the official new look. I really like the 'stripe' texture (i use it on my website too) as background for windows and menus. Far better than that ugly, old looking brushed metal texture OS4 will be using.
This is simple, yet so much nicer to look at. Do you have any other mockups (with more windows, Gui)?
Why don't you guys start a website with ideas, skins, backdrops,... If i buy OS4, the first thing i will do is put a design from you guys on it.
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Note: This post is all IMHO, and indeed subjective :-D
Well, I don't really like Teotwins additions to Simo's designs at all. While its obvious he's a talented artist, I don't know what he was thinking when he came up with that!
First, the curved window top is just horrible. A curved top with square bottom corners is just visually really unappealing imho.
Secondly, that close gadget is just really horrible looking.
The "all in one super gadget" is something that would have all professional human-interface experts going crazy! In practice it would be confusing, counter-intuitive, and introduce a steeper learning curve for beginners. Its no good "clearing up clutter" for the sake of aesthetics at the cost of usability. I really don't see whats wrong with the system we have now!
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@Tickly:
I was thinking about the visual aspect. For using it, there need to be more screens and indeed that "all in one super gadget" is not a good idea.
But at least he is an artist. The default OS4 (allthough Matthew from Zeoneo did say that it was not finished and that time was too short for the demo) looks extremely dull, boring, outdated. Indeed, they have succeeded in what they were trying to do: make it look like an Amiga. (from which the last official GUI look is from 1992 or so).
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@tickly
Note: This post is all IMHO, and indeed subjective
Of course, all comments appreciated, especially criticism.
Re: The curved window border at top. windows and macs now both come default with the same design, as do many linux distros as well. Im a fan of it but its all personal opinions anyway.
Re: The close gadget, yup its a shocker, suggest a better one and ill put it up.
Re: The multi gadget, it would not be right for all people considering newbies. I like it but perhaps a configurable system would be in order including all over window fucntions. As far as professional human-interface experts going crazy, actually windows is already doing it (ive used it for years but only just noticed that its the same thing implemented differently) and im sure they have many "experts" (giggles)... They use the entire title bar however. Click to focus, click+drag to move, double click to maximise and right click for window menu, try it! In practice its great and not confusing, infact its extremely intuitive. Perhaps we can consider that model, and steal then improve on that idea instead of it being the other way around as usual.
@z5
All credit for the bg image if for cojo, you will find the background image in the a.org images under full screen workbench backgrounds.
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The default OS4 (allthough Matthew from Zeoneo did say that it was not finished and that time was too short for the demo) looks extremely dull, boring, outdated.
Thats just the thing. To me it looks great; not to over the top, and it looks much, much BETTER than OS X or WIndows XP's default themes to me, and they are supposed to be 'modern'. I really like it.
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teotwin wrote:
windows is already doing it (ive used it for years but only just noticed that its the same thing implemented differently) and im sure they have many "experts"
Actually, Microsoft are one of the worst companies at creating interfaces. Pretty much everything they make has shocking human interface howlers!
There was a great "User Interface Hall of Shame" at iarchitect.com (http://iarchitect.com/), but the site seems to have since disappeared. Luckily the wayback machine (http://web.archive.org/web/20021105045753/http://www.iarchitect.com/) has a mirror. (click hall of shame on the left). There are quite a few Microsoft programs in there.
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Actually, Microsoft are one of the worst companies at creating interfaces. Pretty much everything they make has shocking human interface howlers!
That is your words Tickly. If you had any idea of how much effor Microsoft puts into their usability testing, you would be surprised.
HCI and Usability are key aspects of developing a GUI and underlaying layers of OS. I would like to hear what those shocking human interface howlers are. Um.. never mind :-)
I think Microsoft has done one H¤%& of a job designing the XP interface. XP is a very advanced system, and makeing it usable to all users demands a lot of usability testing.
Read some of my other threads in other discussions and you will find a link about how they went about going from Win 3.11 to Win95. Pretty interesting reading.
When it comes to Usability, Accessibility and HCI, I get interested. Was one of my favourite subjects at school :-D And I hope I get a job working with it - there are a lot of bad interfaces out there!
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teotwin wrote:
@mdwh2
Thats a problem that already exists for all of the window gadgets anyway, the multi-gadget would not try to solve this, all its doing is reducing the number of gadgets and clutter.
True, it's not a bad idea, but operations such as bringing-to-front, moving and/or resizing (preferably all of them) need to additionally be possible over a larger area than just a single gadget (eg, the title bar, boundary or preferably the entire window). The idea of using a key modifier to move/resize by clicking anywhere within the window is a good one (although I'd still like to keep the more standard methods of moving and resizing by clicking on the titlebar/boundary, without having to use a key modifier).
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That is your words Tickly. If you had any idea of how much effor Microsoft puts into their usability testing, you would be surprised.
To quote the iarchitect hall of shame:
"Unfortunately for the user, interface design at Microsoft is now the responsibility of graphics artists rather than interface designers. It should come as no surprise then, that Microsoft is far and away the most frequent contributor to the Interface Hall of Shame."
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unchartered:
yepp i am sure.. a quick search on the net revealed this site;
Heres the link (http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Venue/3418/)
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Tickly
Actually, Microsoft are one of the worst companies at creating interfaces. Pretty much everything they make has shocking human interface howlers!
I wouldnt say that. the UI exhibits great affordance, good direct manipulation abilities and mappings, tends to support the human cognitive model in respect to iconic and other pictoral representations (in the right amount too, may I add - not an excess), as well as eploying good attention grabbing techniques (colour changing AND blinking), to name a few.
The UI is consistent with great colour separation, widget layouts generally appropriately positioned (like centered OK / CANCEL buttons, something the amiga lacks, and lets not start on UI consistency..)
i would say it IS user-centric.
I am sure they are not randomly bashing out a UI without thorough involvement from an army of HCI experts and cognitive scientists..
In future, please justify WHY the windows UI is a bad one, apart from the anal 'it's not Amiga'.
Oh, and that some unknown web site written by schoolkids claims it.
Don't get me wrong.. I LOVE Amiga, and it pains me to see it so far behind. My only hope is that now progress IS being made, the foundations have been laid, and we can only pick up momentum once more!
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Cool indeed!!!
Massimo Tantignone (author of VisualPrefs) did this (http://home.intercom.it/~amigaws/Images/OS4GUIDesign.gif) years ago. Maybe it's too naive by now, but I think it's still a good design. So Amiga!!! ;-)
SKAN
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@SKAN
I like, reminds of the original OS4 screenshots at os.amiga.com (in some twisted way :)).
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I could not have said it better SnowBord. :-)
Just out of curiosity. Does anyone know if Amiga Inc. are performing any usability testing for their OS4? Taking a look at the "official" screenshots of OS4 doesn't really impress me.
I believe there should be done some improvement on the widget layouts in generall (if I've understood what widgets are) and then some.
Come to think of it, does Amiga Inc. have any HCI or Usability engineers at all in their team? Or are they just CxOs and a bunch of coders?
And how is OS4 designed for people with disabilities like hand coordination (mouse), bad sight, blind etc.
That last one was just thinking aloud :-D
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also, is it me or does the screenmode requester totally need a facelift??
amigas no longer have Low-Res and High-Res listed there..
theres no need for one long list of display drivers and resolutions, frequencies, colours etc. in one pane (listview was it on amiga?? heh!)
a list of displays should be one, then a scrollbar for the resolution, and a cycle gadget for the colour depth and another for the monitor frequency..
so much easier!! i dont understand how they let this blaring omission slip!!
oh, and NewRevolution, don't get ahead of yourself m8 :-) lets just get the UI aspect established, as well as the OS before we start to cater for exceptional cases (in a tiny market like this, i doubt its crucial).
but valid point, one day maybe...
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SnowBord wrote:
In future, please justify WHY the windows UI is a bad one, apart from the anal 'it's not Amiga'.
I never claimed the Amiga was perfect. In fact, the multitude of GUI toolkits available makes the Amiga pretty bad on the consistency front; probably only beaten by the X-Windows world with its myriad of GUI toolkits, and window managers.
Oh, and that some unknown web site written by schoolkids claims it.
You've obviously not been to the site. IArchitect.com was NOT written by schoolkids.
From the introduction:
"Isys Information Architects Inc. specializes in the design and development of robust, highly usable information systems. Isys focuses on ease of use, recognizing that software should assist the user in the performance of some task rather than becoming a task in itself. Isys was founded by Brian Hayes, a former professor of Industrial Engineering, and system design consultant whose clients have included AT&T, General Electric, General Motors, Lucent Technologies, NASA, Siemens, the U.S. Air Force, and the U.S. Army. "
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Incidentally, if you are after specific examples, here are a few. Bear in mind that because they were done by Microsoft, who create a lot of "industry standard" applications, a lot of them are just accepted as standard.
I am not of the opinion that everything Microsoft makes is immediately rubbish, and I also don't bash them for no reason, and I do recognise a lot of positive things they have done.
1) With the introduction of IE4 and Win98 (and continued since), Microsoft took away the borders of buttons in some (but not all) toolbars and made them appear only when the pointer was over them. They also extended this "appearing border" to menus. This is immediately a bad idea; buttons should always appear as buttons, and act as so when pressed. This is common sense, but once again usability is sacrificed for the "cool" factor.
2) Since Office 97 (i think, maybe 2000), lesser-used menu items are removed from menus until they are "maximised" with a special button that appears at the base. This is to present new users with less options and reduce clutter. A good idea, you may think, until you realise that it "learns" which options you use most, and hides the rest. For someone who is not computer literate, menus suddenly changing their layout is a bad idea, and possibly confusing. Also bear in mind that the "maximise" button isn't necessarily obvious to a beginner, who might be reticent to click it, and assume an option is "lost" forever.
3) With IE 6, the picture view mode has special options that appear when the mouse is hovered over it. Besides the fact that these are buggy, and can leave trails when scrolling, all the options are ALREADY available from a simple context menu. These particular pop-ups are unlike any other pop-up i've seen in any other MS application.
4) Up until quite recently, quite a lot of Microsoft programs (Word being a good example) would have action buttons relevant to the whole dialog placed within the borders of a tab page. This is an unnecessary ambiguity that only serves to confuse. You could say "oh, but this was fixed with Windows 95", except that it was present in Word right up to at least Office '97!
There are loads more. I suggest you go take a look at the site :-D
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my point stands. i know what i'm talking about.
besides.. industrial engineering and system design is all about the underlying 'systems', not the user interface. so he is from an engineering backgound, not an HCI one. he seems to be a consultant for 'how to build a good conceptual model of a system' - essentially DESIGN.
i studied Object Oriented Systems analysis and design, and although (these days) the book had some HCI considerations, it was mostly about analysing a set of requirements, developing a system (on paper) then handing this over to the coding team.
again, nothing to do with HCI. and anyway, your quote is a company slogan, a marketing ploy to draw customers in if you wish.
microsoft claims each windows has no bugs and is faster etc. etc.
the PS2 had an 'EMOTION ENGINE' which was meant to make you so drawn into the game with emotion etc.
all marketing.
judging from the spiel they spout about the interface and their ahem... 'reasoning' behind it, i'd say they made that up on the spot too.
i am not saying the founder is bad at his job.. its just that his job is helping teams turn requirements and specifications into design.
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I have seen these screens before and i was mighty impressed then as i am now with them but there isnt much in it that reminds me of the Amiga GUI, how about a cross breed of the latest OS4 shots and yours? that be something to see :-)
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1. is not cool, it is creating a more elegant and 'un-chunky' super nintendo cartridge eject style windows 3.1 humungous bordered buttons. the fact that when you hover over it the border appears is ANOTHER GOOD HCI feature - DIRECT FEEDBACK. go read an HCI book.
2. The theory being you can get access to your most frequently used commands... hence do stuff quicker.
The goal is to increase the learnability of the package by new users by hiding a zillion potentially confusing options. Again, increasing learnability is a HCI plus.
3. I understand the picture resizing, but personally have had no bug experiences. You can make the picture fullsized by pressing the button that appears on top of it.. no big deal. This feature can be annoying for some, but for some it may not. Personal preference I guess.
4. No idea what's going on here. Personally I do dislike most of Word's 'friendliness', and I am sure I am not alone here. This is more of an application-specific function than a general GUI trait.
But the point is, I am talking about the GUI mainly... and quite frankly Office GUI wise is genrally great. The application functionality is a completely different point. I am purely talking about the GUI experience.
I am sure you're glowing with delight reading the site's obviously biased view. I am NOT pro MS... I just respect the GUI efforts they have made. This is NOTHING to do with the crashability, features etc. of the OS or APPS, just about GUI performance.
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SnowBord wrote:
1. DIRECT FEEDBACK. go read an HCI book.
I know what direct feedback is, I still think this is not a good example of it.
2. The theory being you can get access to your most frequently used commands...
Again, I am aware of the reasons behind it and the motivations for implementing it. I'm saying that the actual implementation leaves a lot to be desired.
I am sure you're glowing with delight reading the site's obviously biased view.
Once again you just show that you havent even been to the site! The site has a "Hall of Shame" and a "Hall of Fame". Microsoft also get quite a few entries in the "Hall of Fame" for GOOD user interface techniques. Also, good and bad examples are given for MacOS and a couple of Unix ones.
Anyway, this is more or less of topic for the thread (which was, I believe, future AmigaOS GUI's), and I doubt we'll ever agree on what makes a "good" user interface, so lets just agree to disagree.
(Incidentally, I think Office's interface is vastly superior to OpenOffice).
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@Tickly
Yes ive seen thode examples before, and there are many many more examples of bad application gui designs. But that is it, they are looking at *applications*, we are trying to focus on the underlying toolkit used to display those applications. Nothing will stop coders making bad ui decisions, and thank god some of the MS teams that do the gui's for the apps are not resonsible for the gui for the OS. At least coders should be given the proper tools for creating good interfaces. As much as amiga lovers hate to admit it, windows IS far ahead in term of gui layout. You can pick at the irrelevant crap specific apps they have screwed up but the fact still remains that the underlying gui toolkit has firmly kicked aos's but over the years and we are still tryingt o catch up. Hence our suggestions.
ps, I welcomed the idea of borderless buttons, they say (in your quote) it just common sense to have borders, do they give any reasoning? I find the borders irritating, add clutter and are completely uneeded. And its not just microsoft doing it, look at adobe's latest offerings, etc etc. If its such a bad idea why has osx and linux adopted it? Dont put to much faith in things just because they bash MS.
Back on topic, anyone got any opinions on gestures??? Id like to see them supported by the os, so each app does not have to code its own implementation (causing inconsistent performance and operation)
As far as the window buttons go, i figure a preferences app could be created that simply lets you put which ever gadgets on the windows, and select what happens when you click, double click drag, right click, right double click, right drag them. Also goes without saying that you should be able to specify what happens when you do the clicks on different parts of the windows as well, like title bar, borders etc. And key modifiers of course. This way, the default could still be the classic system, but easily updatable to better operations.
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Snowbord, I remember looking at that hall of shame for user interfaces in the past, and agreeing with practically every one. Until you have even bothered to look at the site, please don't presume to criticise it!
XP has improved the user interface greatly, although you still get the "Okay/Cancel" problem for "Yes/No" dialogs, etc. At least they fixed the start button so you can slam the mouse into the lower left corner to access it, good for Fitt's Law.
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Calen:
Where did you get the atavar? Have you got a bigger version of it?? its hilarious! :-D
Oh and incidentally at university they preach at us NOT to take info from web-sites. If I cite web-stes, I will fail any coursework. Only academic papers.
I don't trust them (Isys) and consider their biased facts as mere points of view.
I can't access the site.. but am sure I am not missing anything... They can claim the moon is cuboid and say they are accredited, and thus it is true.
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I went to the site, and it didn't work! In any case, that's just a few guys "expert" opinion.
We should learn from the titans. Learn from their success factors and their mistakes. Research the web for articles on usability testing regarding OS's.
Then make som mock ups and test their functionality. Have other users test it - and not just the Amiga community. Hardcore amiga fans will hate a new contemporary look - they will feel as a part of Amiga dies. Let it be so - we can't live in the past, we have to move on. And that is, as I have mentioned before, to be creative, think new, think different.
How can a GUI be designed to make it usable?
Can the OS support different levels of knowledge? (e.g. a built in function that sets the "difficulty" on menu options according to if you are a novice user or an advanced user)
Does the GUI support 1,2 or 3 mouse button actions? How does the windows layer themselves?
And the list goes on!
Hm... maybe we should start a thread that lists and discusses areas that will improve a future GUI?
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@SnowBord
I do yeah, measuring around H:450 W:338, easier to see also, pm your addy if you want it and i will send it on.
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And here's an interesting little bit of news..
Hi,
SnowBord (edit - I am a wanted man in many states for my HCI skills) wrote:
> theres a glaring omission in my opinion, and thats to group all the save /
> use / cancel etc buttons in requesters TOGETHER, say in the middle of the
> window.
>
> Otherwise, the user has to hop too far from button to button, which is
> rediculous, if you ask me!
Interesting thought. I'll forward that idea to the team.
Regards,
--
Thomas Frieden
Senior Developer, Hyperion Entertainment
Makes you wonder indeedy if they have any HCI professionals even consulting them...
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What about a task-menu instead of taskbars and startmenus..
Top Left Corner
Boing Ball when click displays a task menu
O
I want to...
Run a command...
Read my email...
Browse the webb...
Play the game...
Connect to...
Launch....
Adjust Preferences...
Perform maintenance...
Turn off the computer...
Logout...
Obviously when any of these are clicked the phrase continues with the menus like this...
O
I want to...
Adjust preferences...
For screenmode.
or
O
I want to...
Launch...
Wordperfect.
or maybe
O
I want to...
Create...
A Wordperfect document...
From the template...
CV.
or
O
I want to...
Play the game...
Defender of the Crown.
or
O
I want to...
perform maintenaice...
On filesystem
or
O
I want to...
adjust preferences
for harddisk partitions.
or
O
I want to...
Connect to...
A Telnet host.
and so on...
Ofcourse the task names might not be similar to the application name..
I want to..
Run a command.
Would obviously open a shell or a single line shell window and
I want to...
perform maintenance
on filesystems
Would either open the HDToolbox or a defragger or similar...
I know this might not work in all languages since the way sentences are built might not always be in the order of the menus. There is a setting to shift between... "Human language like" and "object order" in this menu.
The difference being
O
I want to..
Adjust preferences
for screenmodes.
turning into
O
Preferences
Screenmode
This way you literally are telling the computer what you want to do by building a sentence from a tree menu.. This menu could even be implemented as voice commands when/if that's gets common.
Spelling the word "I want to" into the mic will open the menu letting you continue with one of the options shown.
This new approach to a "Start menu" is simply just a little commoditiy and can ofcourse be removed from WBstartup for experienced users thinking things like this is for newbies.
This Boing ball (customize it to be any icon) is taking up very little of the screen and will let anything currently in the GUI remain..
You can also have Shutting down applications or a menu like...
I want to..
Show...
...list of running apps...
Amiga Installer needs a few commands added to be able to add things to this launch app.
Of course it's fully customizable via a prefs interface and a "windows like" guide...
Imagine the guide first page:
title--- Add a task to the task menu...
What is most similar with what you want to do:
Launch
Draw
Compose
Create
Read
button [add your own method]
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@SnowBord
On point 1:
Just about the only thing that tells you that there is a button in Windows is that you know the general location for it. With a quick glance, it is impossible to differ between buttons and ordinary text/imagery.
Sure, it is a kind of direct feedback, but the only feedback you get is a confirmation that the mouse pointer is over the button in question. And that can easily be accomplished by a slight change of texture or color to the button.
If clutter is to be reduced, it is better to create discrete buttons that still look like buttons.
Finally, we live in a physical world and should be governed cognitively by that world. Does your keyboard buttons appear as buttons only when you have your fingers poised over them?
Oh, and to make things clearer, I do have studies of HCI and cognitive science in my CV. :-)
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OK... seems like most guys dislikes the screenshots sent out by Hyperion so far. Why not make a poll on which default theme we would like to see shipped with OS4, right here on amiga.org and forward the results to Hyperion? That way we could show them what we, the users, would like the default GUI to look like.
The poll could look something like this;
Which default GUI would you want to see in OS4?
1. "Official" Hyperion GUI.
2. SimoAmi GUI.
3. XXXX.
4. XXXX.
Maybe we could include links to the mockups too.
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totally windows directory tree. yuck! i hate those.
shell is science fiction - patterned and proportional font. as hardcore shell user i cant handle it :)
looks nice, but its space inefficent (bottom bar of windows especially)
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seems like most guys dislikes the screenshots sent out by Hyperion so far
I certainly wouldn't go that far - most people on the original news thread seemed to like it.
Even assuming that everyone did hate it, then I don't think such a poll would do any good. Hyperion simply don't have the time to do the changes nessecery. The thing is, many of the things in SimoAmi's concept (Screen bar holding applets, explorer-type shell etc) would require a re-write of parts of intuition and workbench, but at the end of the day the main focus of OS4 is to migrate to PPC. An overhaul of WB will come later. They only thing they could probably change is the colours - new icons and gadgets would take time. As B00tDisk said:
Get the damned OS up, running, and stable on the many varied PPC platforms first. Hell's Bells, if it looks like 1.3 but runs stably, then so be it.
And remember that no-one's favourite GUI is going to be the same as anyone else's; there will always be compromise. At least the new intuition is flexible enough to impose your own personality on it.
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Screen/window chooser as cycle gadget - LOVELY.
jumping mouse pointer sux.
animated elements could become annoying after few hours.
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Just about the only thing that tells you that there is a button in Windows is that you know the general location for it. With a quick glance, it is impossible to differ between buttons and ordinary text/imagery.
ok but tell me this.. what imagery in windows does not afford some sort of function after you left or right click it?? Why should it be labelled a 'button' anyhow?? It is (in most cases, something amiga can't pray for any time soon) a pictoral representation of a function.
Sometimes you can't get away from traditional buttons, and this is not a bad thing.. But where the UI can be made more pleasant and decrease the time ncecessary to locate items, the end result is a positive one.
is it people like you who are tree-hugging old concepts and an outdated OS that have the functionality they deserve from their OS?
or is it OS's developed by companies who have done, and continue to invest millions in their User Interfaces?
The Amiga OS is the outcast don't forget. Lots of borders and frames STRESS the eyes and can work AGAINST the goal of finding what you want quickly...
Why should a button look like an old button?? You like it purely because you have been conditioned to accept it, and now find an alternative approach far too shocking.
As for the keyboard reference - it is not a feasible one. Removing the borders of the buttons would make everything highly confusing, as there are TOO MANY letters, and.. THEY ARE LETTERS! Humans remember and locate image references far faster than textual ones (in the right application ofcourse).
I mean, spreadsheets don't remove their cell borders just because the UI is upgraded.. in their case it is not applicable, just as in the keyboard example.
And here's one that IS an improvement - If you have a hotplate for cooking food which is an old electric design and a new one.
What do sane rational people prefer?? The flat glass surface hotplates over the traditional 'you can see the heating element and a hole beneath it' approach, complete with borders and separation of hotplates'.
Flat elegant glass or lots of ridges and exposed bits?
you decide.
Either way, I'm done arguing.
Why do some Amiga users feel so threatened by UI advances?? AmigaOS doesn't have it yet but big deal.. learn from the research of others.
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porneL wrote:
jumping mouse pointer sux.
Let's say I like to explore possibilities. changing the mouse pointer's color after click is a nice visual interaction that I haven't seen in other any other OS.
animated elements could become annoying after few hours.
What are you referring to?
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SnowBord wrote:
2. The theory being you can get access to your most frequently used commands... hence do stuff quicker.
The goal is to increase the learnability of the package by new users by hiding a zillion potentially confusing options. Again, increasing learnability is a HCI plus.
Except that when you've used an interface for a while, many people I would say (at least, I do) find their way quickly to the menu option (or button come to that) based on the position. If the position is likely to change randomly, then I either have to carefully read each item everytime I choose an option, or risk clicking on the wrong items.
Thankfully this option can be switched off, but I found it one of the more annoying Windows "features".
Other things I dislike about the Windows GUI:
- Menu items on windows - it's quicker to access menu options when you can just shoot the mouse up to the top of the screen.
- Scrollbar arrows being the complete opposite end of the scrollbar. It means that if I want to 'fine-tune' the position, I have to move the mouse a long distance when I overshoot.
- Also on scrollbars, the fact that the window/scrollbar reverts to its original position if you move the mouse too far away from the scrollbar. I never understood why they did this. Countless times I've scrolled through a large amount of data, and then had to redo it because I had moved the mouse a bit too far just as I release the button.
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the pointer colour change is a neat idea that indeed should be explored..
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mdwh2:
- Scrollbar arrows being the complete opposite end of the scrollbar. It means that if I want to 'fine-tune' the position, I have to move the mouse a long distance when I overshoot.
- Also on scrollbars, the fact that the window/scrollbar reverts to its original position if you move the mouse too far away from the scrollbar. I never understood why they did this. Countless times I've scrolled through a large amount of data, and then had to redo it because I had moved the mouse a bit too far just as I release the button.
couldnt agree more with these points. This has long pissed me off too...
Except that when you've used an interface for a while, many people I would say (at least, I do) find their way quickly to the menu option (or button come to that) based on the position. If the position is likely to change randomly, then I either have to carefully read each item everytime I choose an option, or risk clicking on the wrong items.
very true... i just brought up the theory behind it... personally im not 100% sure it's for me (well definately not the reordering of menus).
either way, they're trying to find new ways of doing things.. no doubt their ideas will not be to everyone's taste.. they're on a whole different level from AmigaOS - AmigaOS is struggling to get a coherent modern look for it's UI (and has finally begain to achieve it), while M$ and Apple are pushing the boundaries forwards.
As for menus, valid point... perhaps they are keen to make it obvious that the menus are associated with a window, and like for them to be visible.. I personally prefer Amiga's approach (with MagicMenu ofcourse..)
Hell, even JAVA with it's latest SWING GUI engine looks sweet (1.3 and less didn't look too hot)..
as a whole though, there's far more positives in their GUI than negatives.
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teotwin wrote:
Yes ive seen thode examples before, and there are many many more examples of bad application gui designs. But that is it, they are looking at *applications*, we are trying to focus on the underlying toolkit used to display those applications. Nothing will stop coders making bad ui decisions, and thank god some of the MS teams that do the gui's for the apps are not resonsible for the gui for the OS. At least coders should be given the proper tools for creating good interfaces. As much as amiga lovers hate to admit it, windows IS far ahead in term of gui layout. You can pick at the irrelevant crap specific apps they have screwed up but the fact still remains that the underlying gui toolkit has firmly kicked aos's but over the years and we are still tryingt o catch up. Hence our suggestions.
I still prefer MUI over Windows in various areas, so I wouldn't say it's a clear cut case that Windows kicks AOS' butt. One area where I think the Windows toolkit lets down programmers is the area of making resizable windows. Of course, it is possible to have resizable windows in Windows, and this is the case where they are obviously needed. But countless times I've seen various options windows which aren't resizable - sometimes they don't need it, but sometimes they do have some small textbox or list which I'd love to make larger, but I can't (random examples off the top of my head: the Advanced tab under Internet Explorer options, or the View Logs window on mirc). On the other hand, every MUI window is resizable (and it looks like this is true of Reaction, though I've never programmed it so I'm not sure how it works). On a similar note is the problem that unresizable windows are less likely to cope well with things like different font sizes and so on. This just isn't a problem under MUI. There seem to be various reasons for this:
- "Visual" tools such as "Visual" C++ encourage designing windows with fixed coordinates (ie, point and click create gadgets at the specified position). Visual tools are less common on the Amiga, and no sane programmer wants to hand code interfaces with specified X,Y values;)
- Imo, I prefer the MUI mechanism for creating resizable interfaces (you're saying things like "place these gadgets in a row", and then leaving MUI to work out the resizing, where as in Borland Builder, it's slightly more fiddly given different Anchor and Align properties to the gadgets - and I never worked out how to do it in Visual C++, though I presume it is possible somehow..).
- Lastly, windows *have* to be resizable in MUI (unless MUI determines that this isn't necessary - maybe it's possible to force non-resizable windows, but it doesn't come by default). Under Windows, programmers are often more likely to opt for the easier non-resizable windows.
ps, I welcomed the idea of borderless buttons, they say (in your quote) it just common sense to have borders, do they give any reasoning? I find the borders irritating, add clutter and are completely uneeded. And its not just microsoft doing it, look at adobe's latest offerings, etc etc. If its such a bad idea why has osx and linux adopted it? Dont put to much faith in things just because they bash MS.
One problem with borderless buttons/menus is that it's less obvious what is part of the interface, and what is just text. Okay, in practice I know what a menu under Windows looks like, so it doesn't seem to matter, but this something that could make things harder for newbies. Occasionally I've found websites which redefine the links so that they don't appear underlined, and I often find those very hard to navigate, having to randomly click on text, not knowing what's a link, and what isn't.
I don't know why Apple, Microsoft, etc copy even the bad ideas off of each other.. I wish they didn't.
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I'm going to jump in here, I'm a bit late maybe but I have a few points I'd like to make...
1. Microsoft GUI techniques.
Windows is possibly the most inconsistent GUI I have used, it's even worse than AmigaOS - as at least you can configure all the different GUI toolkits to look and operate the same way on the Amiga. There are a few different designs of the window menus - some highlight when you move the mouse over them, some hide items you haven't used recently, some you can even move elsewhere. File requesters are even worse, with several different designs depending mainly on when the program was written, as far as I can tell. In AmigaOS, when asl.library is updated, all the programs using asl.library for requesters automatically get the new look. With Windows, all these old designs still seem to be hanging around. Either everything is staticly linked at compile time, or there are thousands of old routines in DLLs which, rather than being replaced, have been kept - there is some bad design there if they can't just update the DLLs and automatically get the new designs to all programs. Even the XP themes don't extend to the Command Prompt titlebar. It really is a mess.
2. Bringing windows to front with Intuition
I believe OS4 has a feature where you can hold a key down and click on any part of a window to bring it to the front. I think you can do this with old versions too, with the aid of a commodity such as ClickToFront.
3. I like the official OS4 design, I like Simoami's design too but there are more things I don't like about it (why different coloured window gadgets? The screen titlebar looks a bit cluttered). One thing the icons could do with on OS4 is a few more colours. Next to the gradients etc, the GlowIcons look a bit low-coloured. The other thing with the GlowIcons is that the shadow effect should ideally be alpha-channeled so it properly casts a shadow, the design tends to look a bit strange on certain backgrounds otherwise - same with the glow effect. Having said that, I do like GlowIcons and they are much nicer than the sort of rubbish you get on Windows.
Erm, that'll do for now.
Chris
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The screen titlebar looks a bit cluttered).
It probably is, but the purpose here is to show how useful it can be.
Also, you'll notice small dots separating those different applets.
Actually you can drag out applets to hide them and free some space on the titlebar or click the boingball on the extreme left to select Preferences and add any other applet(s) !
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I do really like the design of the mouse pointer... the rest looks like some sort of freaky AmigaOS/MacOSX/Windows hybrid. I'm not saying I don't like it, I just don't think I could use it regulary. Soz.
Chris
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spotUP wrote:
OK... seems like most guys dislikes the screenshots sent out by Hyperion so far. Why not make a poll on which default theme we would like to see shipped with OS4, right here on amiga.org and forward the results to Hyperion? That way we could show them what we, the users, would like the default GUI to look like.
The poll could look something like this;
Which default GUI would you want to see in OS4?
1. "Official" Hyperion GUI.
2. SimoAmi GUI.
3. XXXX.
4. XXXX.
Maybe we could include links to the mockups too.
It would sound like I'm challenging Hyperion's efforts, but my intention is only to contribute.
I did contact Ben for the GUI concepts a couple of months ago. He, in turn posted links at OS4 internal mailing list so that people involved can take a look at it and see if I can contribute in building the GUI for OS4. I haven't received any feedback on the subject since then.
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1. Microsoft GUI techniques.
Windows is possibly the most inconsistent GUI I have used, it's even worse than AmigaOS -
Did you forget' Windows Server 2003' (out of the box)?
".exe.manifest" script may force XP GUI for non-XP era programs. Compatibility is not guaranteed.
as at least you can configure all the different GUI toolkits to look and operate the same way on the Amiga.
At the current AmigaOS 3.9; third party tools maybe needed for extended visual enhancements e.g. Birdie/Visual Pref.
With Windows, all these old designs still seem to be hanging around. Either everything is staticly linked at compile time, or there are thousands of old routines in DLLs which, rather than being replaced, have been kept
One of the main strength of Windows is its legacy compatibility (i.e. investment protection). This is one of the main boat anchors on why the mainstream market sticks with Windows.
Microsoft’s “design for XP” logo regimes enable the customer to look for XP GUI consistency (or close to ~90 percent consistency).
It’s a balance between breaking compatibility VS visual appeasement.
Having said that, I do like GlowIcons and they are much nicer than the sort of rubbish you get on Windows.
They are about the same in my POV i.e. there’s nothing about them to make them stand out from the crowd.
I do use and operate AmigaOS 3.9 (Boing bags 1) enhanced with Birdie2000/VisualPref/Magicmenu/(plus others) AND WindowsXP-Pro-SP1 enhanced with StyleXP.
One of the next possible Windows GUI can be seen here. http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0509/k1_6.htm
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SimoAmi. check you PMs man!
Anyway Hammer, Longhorn doesn't impress me in the slightest. Moving the API to OpenGL and the like is just a natural progression. I think that by AOS5, our beloved OS will be established enough to make the transition to 3D rendered icons and UI.
And whent that happens, oh... when that happens, it will be pretty.. so very pretty.
Thank God Amiga is getting back into the race. It couldn't of picked a better time!
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@SimoAmi
Very nice! :-D
I have been very impressed with your screenshots in the past and now.
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redfox
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@teotwin
Good suggestions! :-D
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redfox
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One of the next possible Windows GUI can be seen here. http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0509/k1_6.htm
Oh, *that* is the reason behind the 128MB 3D accelerator requirement.
At this rate, the MS UI group is going to put demo crews out of a job :-P
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Psy had me take a look at an article written in osnews (http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=3589).
Eugenia Loli-Queru wrote:
Overall, MorphOS doesn't have the sparkle that a modern OS should have. It feels like a remnant of another era. A beloved era for many people for sure, but another, older era nonetheless. I don't see MorphOS (in its current shape) as the main attraction for this platform, unless Genesi puts a number of engineers to work hard to bring this OS up to speed and usability levels that other OSes today like OSX, Linux or Windows have. It seems that this is happening though, as this new screenshot of Morphos 1.4-alpha shows, now with AA fonts.
I believe Eugenia touches the core of the new Amiga OS platform. There is too much old "workbench" in it. To change that, one must probably go into the code itself to change behaviours of windows, mouse and other.
Amiga Inc and MorphOS should do exactly that!
The imgaes from SimoAmi, are they just skins? Or is it programatically implemented?
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KingTutt wrote:
Anyway Hammer, Longhorn doesn't impress me in the slightest. Moving the API to OpenGL and the like is just a natural progression.
Note that OpenGL is competitor to the Direct3D standard. I don't think MS will migrate their GUI towards OpenGL.
That Mpeg file was for "under the skin" demo not how will the final Longhorn build will appear.
I think that by AOS5, our beloved OS will be established enough to make the transition to 3D rendered icons and UI.
Did they say that in their design goals for AOS 5.0?
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Hammer wrote:
Did you forget' Windows Server 2003' (out of the box)?
Not seen it, not used it, don't know anything about it.
".exe.manifest" script may force XP GUI for non-XP era programs. Compatibility is not guaranteed.
This is my point: this sort of thing shouldn't be needed. Sure, put something in to force it back to the old display for compatibility, but don't default things which come with the OS to the old design.
One of the main strength of Windows is its legacy compatibility (i.e. investment protection). This is one of the main boat anchors on why the mainstream market sticks with Windows.
Yes, but the way it has been done is ridiculous. Amiga program compatibility between different OS releases is probably about the same (if you ignore programs where the rules have been broken), yet a program written to use OS2.04's asl.library will happily use OS3.9's asl.library and look the same as the programs which were written with OS3.9's version in mind.
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Given current limitations, we could achieve a more satisfying look with minimum efforts from Intuition developers:
Take a look:
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/windowguinewstyle.gif)
Which was originally:
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/windowguioldstyle.gif)
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4. My proudest idea is also the visually smallest one. The super gadget replaces all of the resize, maximise, minimise, move to front/back buttons on windows. The idea is that the different click you can do on it will perform all of the same functions, i.e:
left click + drag = move window
right click + drag = resize window
single left click = move to front
single right click = move to back
left double click = maximise
right double click = minimise
six in one, All from one icon!
The only thing you would have to get used to is resizeing windows from the top right not the bottom right.
I have a couple suggestions...
One, if you stick with the "super gadget" concept, it should appear at the four corners of the window. I also agree that the "super gadget" should be optional. Or there should be a comprehenisve 'tutorial' on its use... BTW, have you thought of renaming it the 'geek' gadget??? :-D
Second, utilize more mouse buttons. I know the Amiga originally supported 'only' two, but there's no reason to abide by this limit anymore. For example, instead of using single left/right click to place a window in the foreground/background. Why not 'middle' mouse click for both functions. That way you could preserve the ability of dragging a background window without forcing it to the front.
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How about OverShaker (http://nowee.org/overshaker/)?
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@SimoAmi
Splendid :-)
Much nicer brushed metal used.
The buttons & fonts are great & white used in te right places to blance it all out.
And it still looks like AmigaOS :-D
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Nice - not so gloomy anymore.
But I have a few questions (this might be because I have used M$ too much.....)
1. What is the difference between USE and SAVE? Is there a point in using a screensetting without saving it?
2. Screen supports predefined scr sizez right? so why have width/height when you choose this from display mode?
3. Maybe have a option where we could set the Hz?
4. Is it necesary to show the mode properties when this more or less shown in display mode scroll window?
5. Which way do you drag the bar to select number of colors? Maybe put min. color in one end and max colors in other end?
6. For people with bad vision or color blindness, they will have problems reading the 'Display mode' and 'mode properties' text, because it is grey text on grey background.
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Ive bigger and better plans for a third mouse button ;-) but of course it should all be configurable.
ps, i had renamed it the multi-gadget, but as it would be better implemented via system config its not really appropriate to give it a name :-(
One thing i would not be happy with is that people are expected to customise the gui because the default is not up to scratch. First impressions last. I feel its of upmost importance that the default system is highly attractive, efficient and functionable for both geeks and newbies alike. Its fine for existing users, but a newbie heading into local store x and comparing them will need to be impressed. A gui like this doesnt exist yet imo, but given time i think our community and hyperion are capable of crafting one.
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Excellent makeover Simo. I love it. :-)
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I wonder. If you had CONTACTED HYPERION AND VOLUNTEERED TO MAKE A THEME instead of POSTING TO WEB FORUMS ABOUT IT, something would have happened.
Why not contact Hyperion instead of nagging and whining to US, the USERS?
That said, it looks ok. But I personally don't like the window gadgets.
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Hey olegil. 8-)
SimoAmi now has the oppertunity to do something about the future looks of AmigaOS4. The Amiga team is supportive with regard to AmigaWorld's efforts (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=692&forum=4) for designing alternative themes for AmigaOS4.
Without a doubt SimoAmi is very competent and I hope he will join (actually lead) these efforts. :-)
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Does anyone remember commodore 128? Do you remember that by holding down a coupple of buttons you could switch to C64 "mode"?
Would that be something one could consider for Amiga? If users want to have traditional amiga look and functionality - one only have to press a few buttons and *uala*, there you have your OS3.1. Then on the new OS one could have added funtctionality better suited for todays environment.
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I really hope SimoAmi has a chance to contribute before OS4 is released - the Hyperion guys keep on saying things like "when it's done", but I'm fairly certain that they have a schedule that they're keeping to. They just don't want to get grilled if it slips :-)
I think BenH and the Friedens are feeling a bit defensive because of all the BS that's been flung their way, so they are wary of taking this offer to help at face value.
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@NewRevolution:
That's what a skinnable gui is all about - you go to Prefs, select "gui preferences" and load up the "OS3.1" preset. I'm fairly certain a ton of skins will become available shortly after OS4 ships - I'd like to see what a "Geos 1.3" skin would feel like :-)
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I wasn't just thinking of the skins - but functionality as well. Because if we want some serious change in GUI, we have to change the code for how windows behaves - widgets and all that.
Btw. I found some lecture notes regarding GUI and widgets. Since I knew very little about widgets, I found it intersting. Might be a bit biased towards M$..... Here is the link for those of you (or not) that are in the same boat as me :-D
The link (http://www.sims.berkeley.edu/academics/courses/is213/s99/Lectures/Lecture16/)
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I think it's safe to say that posting a couple of screenshots to amiga.org is not going to make Hyperion commit to anything. I dunno if SimoAmi has bothered to contact them properly, but from the looks of it, he hasn't. I again suggest contacting Hyperion about making a theme. At worst they say "sorry, you missed the deadline", but from what I hear I think this is in fact what's being worked on as a last-minute thing (well, you can't introduce a severe crash by frelling up the pixels in a gadget, can you? So it makes sense doing this while everyone is doing last-minute beta testing). At best they say: Ok, contact this-or-that person and he'll send you the template he's using for the themes.
Gee, come on. I think Hyperion would agree to this if asked _properly_. Stop talking to Hyperion through forums, send them an email like everyone else...
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@SimoAmi (for 2003/6/12 10:26:24 post)
Very nice…
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@ SimoAmi
I said before, URL your images. Please don't make me ask again. Some people still have to use modems.
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Not seen it, not used it, don't know anything about it.
Careful with the generalisation i.e. "Windows is possibly the most inconsistent GUI I have used".
This is my point: this sort of thing shouldn't be needed. Sure, put something in to force it back to the old display for compatibility, but don't default things which come with the OS to the old design.
It depends on the priorities i.e. compatibility vs visual appearance.
yet a program written to use OS2.04's asl.library will happily use OS3.9's asl.library and look the same as the programs which were written with OS3.9's version in mind.
Misapplied assumptions. Due to the nature of Window’s File Open Dialog window i.e. components/objects can be added or deleted (this is the application programmer’s decision).
Have you ever programmed in any of the visual integrated development environment (e.g. Visual Basic, Visual C, Borland C Builder, Borland Delphi, Borland J Builder and ‘etc’)?
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Just an idea....
Given that AmigaOS in the future will *supposedly* run AmigaOE (AmgiaDE/SDK/whatever else its called!) and also that AmigaOE will run on *many platforms*. And also given the great flexibility of the OE (i.e. alpha channeling, V flexible menus, MUI style layout support etc.), and also given that there is no real "desktop" environment for it yet, how about trying to implement your OS GUI design in AmigaOE?
Just an idea....
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@mikeymike
Actually no, you said
Can we PLEASE start URL'ing huge pictures!
I dont think the last ones were *huge*. What is your dimension definition of huge? so i can try and stick to those dimensions for the ones coming up, even though this topic is about *graphical* user interfaces...
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@SimoAmi
Your Screenmode prefs example generally look better, there is work needed on both when it comes to alignment and general layout of the different elements tough. The white areas in your example is really needed, there is way too much grey.
The thin line between gadgets in the official one is something i prefer over not having them.
A tip for all interested:
Apples UI guidlines is a good read for starters, aswell as the (massive) research done by IBM on UI issues.
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this topic is about *graphical* user interfaces...
So maybe you ought to send in your comments on uncompressed bitmaps? That would surely help wouldn't it?
If you're posting significantly-sized images, URL them. If people are interested, they'll check out the URL.
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@mikeymike
So maybe you ought to send in your comments on uncompressed bitmaps?
??? Not sure what you trying to get at there, it doesnt even qualify as sarcasm as it has no point, there is no reason to get offensive.
posting significantly-sized images, URL them
And i will, when you tell me what you define as huge (sorry, now significant) Eg, i see simo's images on page 7 as fine, you obviously do not. So what size would you recommend. And I suggest you re-check my image post on page four before replying. Btw, you know there is a reason there are [img] tags (im also on a modem)
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As long as images isn't over 25k, I'm happy. I've only got a 56k modem, and if the pictures get to be 100+k I start to worry :-)
I proposed it before, I can repeat myself.
Can all prototype proposals be uploaded the the img gallery? Maybe there can be created a separate folder for GUI prototypes or something. That way, everybody can study the images without browsing back 5-6 pages to find them.
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I second that. Put it somewhere where it can be browsed through. Collect them in one place, and we'll comment there. Much smarter than starting new threads here all the time :-)
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@ teotwin
My intention was not to be offensive, if anything mildly sarcastic, pointing out that it doesn't matter what the thread is about.
I was purposefully not exactly defining image file size, I'm still kind of hoping that common sense would prevail. At least it seems common sense to me to not force people to download the same images over and over again when they've seen them before. There I am wondering why my bandwidth disappears for ages downloading the first page's 'screenshots' when I've seen them a hundred times already.
Your post on page 4 is more sensible than posting the full-size image, and thank you for the effort. It would probably be less effort to URL the picture though :-)
There is a reason for the a.org messaging [img] tag, but the reason is not a modem DoS tool :-)
@ NewRevolution
Good idea. I've created a category for this:
http://amiga.org/gallery/index.php?c=4 (http://amiga.org/gallery/index.php?c=4)
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> Good idea. I've created a category for this:
>http://amiga.org/gallery/index.php?c=4 (http://amiga.org/gallery/index.php?c=4)
.. And I've added a picture....
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click to enlarge
(http://amiga.org/gallery/images/19/small/1_1077.jpg) (http://amiga.org/gallery/images/19/1_1077.jpg)
Although the pic is far from detailed (rather flawed actually), it gives the idea of the functionality that could possibly be gained by using window tabs. In reality there would be more tabs for things such as network settings etc etc.
Obvious faults with the pic are the missing buttons in the recessed window group such as icons for revert, default, load prefs and others. The list box would be populated by different display cards or similar and the resolution and depth would not be applicable (as they are sleected outside the display)
re: the actual screen prefs section. i have changed it a bit to illustrate that at least the screenmode prefs could be updated with dramatically better usability and more logical layout, im sure my design can also be improved to a large degree too. incase your wondering, ive removed the "Test" button with the assumption that the "Save" and "Use" button would detect a screen mode cange at run time and prompt to run a test at that point (windows style) for the single reason that it help clean it up a bit (ie, i could find anywhere to shove it ;-)
ps @mikeymike, hows this, the image is in a.orgs new mock up image section you have provided, the generated thumb is not too different (in size) from the avatars on the site. Catch is we would have to wait for the imgs to be approved before we could link to them in forums such as i have done here.
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Just wondering, is this "tabs" approach preferable over the MUI-style list-down-the-left?
Comments everyone?
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@PhatBoiCollier
i would say that it would depend on the implementation target and misc different factors. Eg a list box would be far more practical for showing a list of 20 items then tabs, in which case some tab scrolling system would have to be implemented (ewwww). Im of the opinion however that if you have more then eight items then your entire prefs system should be revised as its probably too complex for the average user, esp newbies. If your not targeting newbies however, go for it!
I do think that tabs better identify the enclosed as related directly to the tabs, compared to a left side list box. List boxes are normally used to simply select an item, not for changing the content of a window to related material.
btw, apparently eight "items" is the max number of items the average human can cope with without having to overly concentrate (sorry, no source on that info). As such im the sort of person that would be dedicated to using lateral thinking to invent a system that would better implement the problem area, and not force the user to have to put up with a second rate implementation. I do accept its not always applicable thou.
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Hmm, fair comment. I am just wondering about the practicality of a "pages" system (widget) that switches between tabs and a list, once the number of pages exceeds 8.
If the UI uses proper layout controls, it should be able to handle it. Or do you think thats taking too much away from the developer (i.e. forcing the issue too much). I guess one of the params could be type (i.e. Tab, List or Auto).
Just throwing ideas around......
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@teotwin
The tab idea is a good one, however i must say that i am not that fond of the multi gadget, there is too much different control options without visual feedback, its easy to forget if function x was a right click or a double click, or whatever combo it might be.
Btw, your windows 'container' floats into the contents of the window, is the idea behind that to remove elements that might not be necessary ?
My tought is that it is adding rather than removing clutter.
The controlling element of the width/height is on the right side but for the refresh/depth its on the left side, it might just be me but i would like to see them consistently on one side.
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that latest prefs shot is getting there. though there's no test button at all now! in the previous lighter-grey example the test button should have been at the bottom among the save/use/cancel buttons. and the screen mode info text should NOT have been in white boxes as that makes them look like editable text boxes.
as for borders and buttons i LIKE chunky borders all the way around my apps. using visualprefs my "current" program has a blue border and the "other" ones have a yellow border all the way round. I find this much more pleasing on the eye than the windows method of just changing the titlebar color.
i dont mind either way about menus at the top of the screen or contained within programs. how about it becomes a user option with the windows menu-in-programs defaulted to help newbies migrate :-)
and i LOVE LOVE LOVE the "amiga browser" mockup. i couldnt compute without windows explorer! though there is a LOT to be said about how nice the multitasking listers in Dopus magellan behave! so if the tree menu could be blinged on and off then that would be good, what with it popping out the side.
ooh! idea! opus style listers all over the workbench doing stuff and a treeview dock that is seperate and jumps to the location of the current lister. unless you lock it for drag copying.... how about you can drag the treeview around and stick it to other listers lol! then we get best of dopus Magellan listers and best of explorer all in one!
now all we need is for all file type icons to have mini icons built in for the listview modes
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olegil offered:
...I again suggest contacting Hyperion about making a theme. At worst they say "sorry, you missed the deadline", but from what I hear I think this is in fact what's being worked on as a last-minute thing (well, you can't introduce a severe crash by frelling up the pixels in a gadget, can you? So it makes sense doing this while everyone is doing last-minute beta testing). At best they say: Ok, contact this-or-that person and he'll send you the template he's using for the themes.
Gee, come on. I think Hyperion would agree to this if asked _properly_. Stop talking to Hyperion through forums, send them an email like everyone else...
;-) Reading between the lines, it seems as if someone is trying his best to hint around an NDA. In Simoami's shoes, I'd be all over this suggestion.
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teotwin wrote:
click to enlarge
(http://amiga.org/gallery/images/19/small/1_1077.jpg) (http://amiga.org/gallery/images/19/1_1077.jpg)
Although the pic is far from detailed....
teowin, I think that all these themes and screens are really well presented. Modern, simple and still very amiga-ish.
I am particularly enamoured with the red miggy mouse pointer. I think that without the trademark red amiga pointer, we really lose some of that Amiga's character from the desktop.
Here's to sticking with all amiga trademark traits for OS4, especially our favourite little red mouse pointer which we have all grown very fond of since 1985!
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@teotwin
Very nice.
I like the idea of tabs (input, interface etc)
The scrollboc for display mode is alright.
1) It's still too gray. Maybe make the buttons a bit brighter?
1.1) Try to avoid Gray text og gray background. Colorblind and visual imparied ppl will have problems.
2) The arrows for Refresh rate and Depth are pointing right. Are these dropdown? How about having a arrow pointing down?
3) What is the difference betwen 'USE' and 'SAVE' button?
4) Can user select e.g. 1024x300? Why are there selection for screen "size" when this is choosen in Display mode?
A solution could be the way it is in windows. A dragbar that prevent users from setting invalid screen sizes.
5) The window is very compact - will this be large enough for the other folders(sound, input etc)?
6) Is is possible to have a plain background? Not a stripy bg? Reading text on a "noisy" background is more tireing than with plain bg.
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@NewRevolution
This is my opinions and interpretations of that layout, which I really like.
1) Grey, I like that, far better than WinXP default blue/green theme.
2)I would have to agree with you on that one.
3)USE, enables you to test a screen mode without saving, so if it goes FUBAR, just reboot, and everything is back to normal.
4)Why not, but personally I don't se the point.
5 and 6. well ??? :-)
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@PhatBoiCollier
Thats a good idea! if intuition new if the window tabs were going to be too wide for the window then it would convert them to a left hand list box on the fly (perhaps we could even design a new look of list box for this purpose to better illustrate the connection to the content) This would also be cool for when you resize a window the change could be made on the fly to best suit the windows actual available area?
@Step
There have been mixed opinions on the multi gadget, which to me normally means its a no go. I guess it could certainly be confusing to newbies, I might have a go at trying to set it up and see how it works in practice to see if it is as usable as i think. Even if its not, i still think that having window gadgets configurable would be of benefit, even if its not going to be used as i suggested it would at least mean you can set the layout as you see fit?
your windows 'container' floats into the contents of the window
Sorry, im not sure exactly which element you mean there, do you mean the window tabs not having a border onto the windows content, and as such that you think it would visibly create confusion?
@KingTutt
I agree, if theres one thing that we should be aiming for its a familiar gui recognisable as amiga. To be honest im not sure if mine does it successfully. Ive tried to keep my greys a little darker like the old os, you will notice that win and mac seem to have very light backgrounds by default, I tried it but it lost the amiga look i thought.
@all
Ive had another idea, not exactly to do with the gui but related. The OS should have a catalouge of common icon images and glyphs (gadgets) that could be accessed by all apps. I would STRONGLY recommend that the images are in SVG format (is there an SVG datatype for ami yet?) The idea is that every app would not have to worry about distributing common icons as they would already exist and be retrievable from the OS and when updated, all apps would benefit from the new styles. there i go thinkin' out loud again...
Some of the icons im thinking are for: ok, cancel, save, revert, refresh, delete, insert, update, change, help, load, preferences etc etc. I would expect the list to push past 100 glyphs, it may sound large but considering all the space apps would save over many many installs...
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@NewRevolution
1 & 1.1) yup, perhaps ill look into something a little more bold (colour wise), still needs to be amiga like of course...
2) agree
3) use doesnt save, eg on the old amiga i would temporary change it to play a game on the tv. I doubt it would be applicable for screen resolutions in the future, but one thing i forgot to mention about the screen shot was that the status bar is *NOT* affected by the window tabs, eg the save save, use, cancel button would be applicable to all pref settings, so you could in theory change the network setting to a specific IP address while you are out and about or on site, and not save it, and then revert to saved later (or simply reboot) to get rid of the temporary settings. So the use button would have a far greater impact on prefs then just screen modes alone.
4) the list box above would in reality not show the resolution as well (i just didnt remove it when i copied it from simoami) it would instead be showing a general device list (or similar) so the resolution would be outside of it. And if you want to make a screen bigger then the visible reolution you would need to enter it below, there would have to be some error checking for figures obvisouly. The thing that it is missing, is to be able to select from a default set of resolutions, 800x600, 1024x768, 1280x1024 etc etc
5) I would have to be larger for the other settings. The final layout would have to be created in respect to the other settings as well, and them formatted to suit the final width and height. An alternative is that each window tab could specify a different width and height that the window would be resized to when clicked. mac osx does this already but to be honest its mildly irritating to me. If i want a window to resize then ill prefer to do it myself, so I would lean towards setting a specific (generous) size for the prefs window, and layout the different sections to best use the available space.
6) ill do a quick mock up this weekend if i get the time.
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is there an SVG datatype for ami yet?
I don't think so. It is a very complex format to render completely. The Mozilla team has been working for years on a SVG renderer for Mozilla and it's still not in the Mozilla builds by default because it still isn't completed.
I'm currently working on a vector graphics drawing library for Amiga-Anywhere, but it will be nowhere near as complete as SVG and the vector graphics will most probably be in a binary format (XML is a bit big, for PDA's I prefer small filesizes for the image data :)
Regards,
Onno
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@teotwin
I made a quick alteration of your image to show you what i mean, the refresh/depth drop downs arrows are moved to the right side and are pointing down. Added a thin line and some partial blue to the window, i hope you see what i mean by that, its a very shaky alteration.
I like it when the active window is in blue...
Quickie picture (http://www.sweportal.se/Pubgfx/Quickie.jpg)
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teotwin wrote:
4. My proudest idea is also the visually smallest one. The super gadget replaces all of the resize, maximise, minimise, move to front/back buttons on windows. The idea is that the different click you can do on it will perform all of the same functions [snip] six in one, All from one icon!
Unfortunately, this is also the worst idea of the lot, in my humble opinion. The idea of using the keyboard in conjunction with the mouse, or requiring a double click with either mouse button in order to use system gadgets is far too cumbersome. A GUI should not require thought: it should be intuively obvious. Overloading a single gadget with six functions is the exact opposite. I much prefer two or three standard gadgets there (close, minimize, maximize), and have all elements of the window structure respond with a pop-up menu by right-clicking on it. (Useful when for example the window is largely moved out of the screen.) It doesn't look snazzy or progressive---but it should be ease-of-use first, and artistic design second. Not the other way around.
The rest of the ideas and pictures are certainly nice. Personally, I prefer my windows bare and stark as they are just acting as delimiters of their contents. But I'm sure other people have different opinions. What I haven't seen mentioned so far (but it's a large thread, could have missed it) is the fact that all mice nowadays have three buttons, and a scroll wheel. Many keyboards feature lots of extra keys. Have you given any thought how to incorporate those? Or how to make the GUI accessible with just a keyboard? (Think RSI here.)
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Not really hinting, and no NDA here... Just applied a bit of sensible logic to Hyperions answer to some stuff written about the "default" look shown last weekend on OS4 on tour.
I seem to recall a mention to the effect that "OS4 works, but some last minute things need to be fixed, like more themes and a better default look"
But IANAL (I Am Not A Lexicon :-P), so I might recall wrong :-)
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random thought: the "clicked" mouse animation should stay active for the entire duration of the "double-click window" . maybe it wont move the pixel up but would change color. that would really help as double clicking is something that new cpu users find hard to "get" and a visual clue would be good to also prevent you accidentally double clicking like when you go to rename a file in windows.
how good is that!
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I'm currently working on a vector graphics drawing library for Amiga-Anywhere, but it will be nowhere near as complete as SVG and the vector graphics will most probably be in a binary format (XML is a bit big, for PDA's I prefer small filesizes for the image data :)
Is it written in VP? Or C/C++?
Greetz, Gio
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I just saw the new screenshots after reading OSNEW.COM I noticed an interesting comment that read as follows...
Taken from Osnews (http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=3787&offset=15&rows=30)
Jeezus! I'm a graphic designer but not a decorating idiot. I'm not asking for the old Amiga zelots to come out and defend some color schemes which I find extremely user-unfriendly and that I could not work with.
I care very much about the underlying technology of my OS but at the same time, I HAVE TO USE IT for long periods of time and the GUI is just as important as the underlying engineering.
That said, you guys forced me to fire up PhotoShop:
OS4 Lighter Metallic mockup version (http://home.neo.rr.com/cynopolis/amiga4_wish_01.gif)
See? Still all gray but not all the puke...
by Vic Berkshire
Well I have to admit his screen mockup does fair a little more pleasing to the eye compared to the original, no?
Original screenie of OS4 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/os4/shot1.html)
Amazing what a few highlights do for a desktop eh? Ideas?
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I agree completely. In fact, I did a similar thing; does anyone prefer this (http://www.yourdreamnet.co.uk/amigacentre/images/os4new.PNG) to this (http://amigaworld.net/modules/features/os4/shot5.html)?
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Is it written in VP? Or C/C++?
It will be in VP once the prototyping is done.
Regards,
Onno
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Well I have to admit his screen mockup does fair a little more pleasing to the eye compared to the original, no
No :-)
For one thing I like Cojo's wallpaper (http://amiga.org/gallery/photo.php?lid=913) (which I found here at amiga.org) and I rather prefer it a bit darker.
Of course it's a matter of taste, and it is impossible to hit everyone's preference, therefore it will probably be best to have a selection.
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SimoAmi wrote:
This is the concept I came up with almost a year ago, but no one has ever paid attention!
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/OS4GUIDesignNG4.jpg) (http://simoami.com)
[color=AAB0B0](Sorry for the long-size picture)[/color]
Window and Dialog Resizing illustrated:
(http://www.simoami.com/images/shots/mouseop1.gif)
Mouse Behaviour:
(http://simoami.com/images/shots/mouseclick.gif)
Also:
Main Menu dynamically illustrated (http://simoami.com/titlebar.html) - Updated June 8/1:49pm
[color=AAB0B0](Flash 5+ plugin required)[/color]
Bandwidth probs, damn, anybody have a copy?
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Does anyone have a mirror site for SimoAmi's screenshot mockups ?