Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: xeron on November 18, 2002, 04:24:54 PM
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They claim they didn't do anything wrong, and offer no apologies, however they say the RDB stuff is now removed:
"Our fully legal anti-piracy safeguard lost its purpose when information about it was spread among crackers. Therefore, its code has been removed from all our drivers to Mediator and Spider, and all registered users have received appropriate updates."
Full article (http://www.elbox.com/news_02_11_18b.html)
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Thank God that I don't have that stuff in my miggy !!
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So it was true!!! :-o
I thought it was just some arse spewing mud again on ANN.
Elbox seems to be preparing for war, they have their own airforce (http://www.elbox.com/news.html) (top righthand corner). ;-)
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I really hope they go out of business and go live under some bridge... bastards deserve this..
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:-o
I have to admit I am surprised! OK maybe wrting to that part of the hard disk isn't "dangerous" but what if the "protection" code was activated by a thrid party, hacker or virus?
Very dangerous peice of code to have in a leigit bit of software IMHO
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Hmmmm... You all read the entire article ? (Doesn't get them out of the woods, but it does sound more like the whole situation is overrated)
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Personally, I think this whole ordeal is just crap. Some hacker attempts to crack the usb.device driver, gets his RDB ruined and tries to blame Elbox.
I had no fear over my Mediator killing my harddrive as I am not doing anything illegal, and since I have switched to PFS3 I have not corrupted any executables on my harddrive.
I do understand the concern that legal Mediator users have/had over this ordeal, but I personally think this has all been blown way out of proportion.
I'm sure there will still be a bunch of people slagging Elbox even after this explanation and new drivers without the RDB trashing anti-piracy code.
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@seer
Yes I have read the whole thing, and I'm even more annoyed by
the allegations the spread out against competition products.
(E3B being the target this time, but it's not the first of those)
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What really matters here is the fact that elbox seem to think they have the (legal?) right to mess with your hd. This is of course bull. its simply illegal. imagine if M$ or some company like that was caught doing this...
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I guess part of the problem is that lots of users know the acronym (sp ?) RDB and don't like to read "overwrite" and RDB in the same sentence. So when (non-)programmers see some code containing these words all hell breaks lose..
From Elbox;
RDB FACTS
How does it relate to the cracked USB driver in question? The only result of activation of the anti-piracy safeguard in the cracked code is overwriting the first RDB sector of the booting hard disk. This first RDB sector, named RDSK, does not contain ANY user data. This sector does not contain ANY information about disk partitioning, either. What is stored in this sector is only information about the model and parameters of the hard disk and technical information available in another part of the RDB. When the RDSK sector content is overwritten, recovering is quite simple. No backup copies of this RDB sector are necessary. All the information to be included in the RDSK sector can be read from the hard disk with HDToolBox software, even if this sector is completely overwritten. The five minutes of work needed to restore the RDSK sector does not seem to be a heavy punishment for stealing and/or cracking software...
Sounds plausible to me I guess.. Then again 5 minutes downtime of any computer can be real costly in some bussineses.. Not everybody knows how to use HD-Toolbox ;-)... It's debatable if this code would never have been triggered in "normal" use. (Like a virus designed to take advantage of this code, then again, why would anyone write a virus that only works if a certain driver is available ? ;-) )
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What was very worrying, though, was the fact that Elbox did threaten ANN.lu's Christian Kemp with legal action and wanted him to remove any discussion of this matter. That was unacceptable considering that fact that they now admit that these "protection measures" did exist. And Christian, a long-time community supporter, does not deserve that treatment!
What ever happened to the good old "We made a mistake. We're sorry. Here's a fix." in this Amiga community of ours... Really, do companies think they get more goodwill out of people buy denying things and trying to hide the truth behind word games? Elbox are not the only one to try this.
I for one will pay for honesty any time over deception. We all make mistakes. Admitting and making up for it is where the difference is made.
I'm so disappointed.
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imagine if M$ or some company like that was caught doing this...
Hmmm... Wasn't there some news about their EULA that if M$ found illegal software/MP3 on your Windows PC the could delete those files ? (Maybe WinXP-MC stuff ?). Even if they did, Joe Average would just happily continue to use Win98 for years to come. It's not just Amiga followers you can call Sheep y' know.
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@Balti
I'm even more annoyed by
the allegations the spread out against competition products.
(E3B being the target this time, but it's not the first of those)
Well, it's hard to really judge evils based on where your perspective is on this issue, but Chris Hodges (Poseidon author) illegally obtained Elbox drivers and championed the campaign against Elbox in public forums. While I fully understand those who LEGALLY owned Mediator drivers and verified the RDB problem themselves, the fact is that I think Mr. Hodge's behaviour was rather unwarranted.
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Zadoc wrote:
While I fully understand those who LEGALLY owned Mediator drivers and verified the RDB problem themselves, the fact is that I think Mr. Hodge's behaviour was rather unwarranted.
Whoa! So the author of the USB stack that Elbox wrote some drivers for hears that those very same drivers could have malicious code in it is wrong for investigating the claims that could have very serious consequences for both Elbox and himself? I don't see your logic...
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What was very worrying, though, was the fact that Elbox did threaten ANN.lu's Christian Kemp with legal action and wanted him to remove any discussion of this matter.
Could have something to do with the reputation ANN has these days (sorry Chris, it's just not what it used to be :-( , I know you chose not to introduce registered posters, but..)... No company would like to see a whole thread on a news page with negative comments based on some news from a rather unreliable source..
I for one will pay for honesty any time over deception. We all make mistakes. Admitting and making up for it is where the difference is made.
But Elbox don't believe the made a mistake... They say they are a victim here to. Funny thing is, on ANN they call Elbox Judge Dredd because they think Elbox is playing personal police judge and jury... Whatever happened to the right to defend yourself ;-) , or fair trial ?
Anyway, I still think this is lots of hot air 'bout air. I don;t own any Elbox products, I don't care about them, but every story can be rread from multiple angles.
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@zadoc
1st: Chris is tricked into an non-OEM-deal by ELBOX
(They made him belief their driver would work with off the shelf cards).
2nd: They start a campaign against E3B
3rd: They put a F***ING virus into their driver.
4th: Chris said "I can't cooperate under these coditions, let them
try to to live without my USB-stack"
5th: ELBOX throws some more mud.
Now compare that behaviour to the CGX/P96/W3D-issues and
you might note a pattern.
I don't let ANY company put a trojan on MY computer.Thats
why I will never use Win for more than games (no online) and never
update it above Win98, and thats why I will never buy a ELBOX
product. It doesn't matter how big or small the danger and damage
is, I just don't want any VIRUS.
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@ Tickly
You misunderstood me a bit. I don't have a problem with Chris Hodge's reaction and how he handled his position (as far as not-supporting suspicious code). The problem is that he PIRATED the drivers, and this was a bit before LEGAL Mediator users began confirmed finding the code within their own drivers.
The problem I have is that who knows where these drivers came from as they were illegally obtained. At the time, there was no way to verify if these were previously hacked drivers coming from illegal sources. It reduces credibility in my eyes, even after Elbox has come public with confirming this.
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@seer
or fair trial ?
You mean the fair trial those got you meesed with the driver
(maybe just be accident or out of curiosity) ?
No one except the state (and parents ;-) eh and wifes :-o ))
has the right to punish, and surely not an obscure polnish
company.
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@ Seer
I am not aware of any code in windows that deletes your RDB (or whats it called on windows MFT?) but if there is its just the same #### that elbox did and it is by all means illegal.
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Well, seeing as Elbox didn't give him a copy of the drivers for his own USB stack, what else could he do but obtain a copy from a Mediator user?
If I was Chris, I would have done exactly the same thing, because I would see it as important to investigate for myself something which could reflect badly on my image and reputation.
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> Well, it's hard to really judge evils based on where your perspective is
> on this issue, but Chris Hodges (Poseidon author) illegally obtained Elbox
> drivers
I do think that I've got the right to obtain a copy of the material
distributed (which also contains /my/ stuff, therefore legally being a
co-copyright holder) to see, if Elbox conformed to my proposed distribution
terms (to which they actually didn't right to the detail, but who cares).
> and championed the campaign against Elbox in public forums.
Did you read my posting? The driver was a trojan. This is illegal. The
driver is used together with my software (and currently only my software,
as there is no other usb stack which is compatible with the hardware driver
system so far) I have to take care of the legal status and users possibly
being harmed.
> While I
> fully understand those who LEGALLY owned Mediator drivers and verified the
> RDB problem themselves, the fact is that I think Mr. Hodge's behaviour was
> rather unwarranted.
You're free to have your opinion and I that's okay. I just don't think that
my behaviour was not appropriate.
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You mean the fair trial those got you meesed with the driver
Why mess with drivers if you don't know what you're doing ? Like telling a win98 user to open regedit and delete a few keys to see what happens, then blaiming M$ then Win98 is a bad OS (I hate the way the registry is used in any Windows version, but the idea itself isn't so bad... But why does the registry have to contain info about "shortcuts?") . Besides, it's in the EULA that you are not allowed to mess with the drivers. (I know EULA means sh*t, but still)
(maybe just be accident or out of curiosity) ?
Curiosity killed the cat ;-).. If this code is triggered by accident most HDs would still boot I think. Like Elbox said, there isn't any vital info stored in the part of the RDB that gets erased.
No one except the state (and parents ;-) eh and wifes :-o)) has the right to punish, and surely not an obscure polnish company.
Neither do the users who either don't own any of the drivers and/or hardware from Elbox, or aren't affected by the (unproven AFAIK) unsave code. The ones who are infected have a right to acuse them, offcourse Elbox will probably want them to prove they didn't mess with their drivers. (User wins ;-))
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@Electro
I am not aware of any code in windows that deletes your RDB (or whats it called on windows MFT?) but if there is its just the same #### that elbox did and it is by all means illegal.
It's called MBR (master boot record) in windows/MS-DOS.
AFAIK Windows doesn't contain any similar code, tho Win98 and even XP did thrash some of mine RDB's.... Reading Elbox statement, neither does their scheme delete your RDB, just some data on the hardrive type/heads/cylinders. Done that myself a few times when my A4000 was still working, no probs really. HD toolbox just reads them back from the drive without any pain.
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yeah MBR...
anyway... all you have written is besides the point. elbox (or anyone else for that matter) is not the authority with legal right to mess with your HD. they can sue you if they know you hacked / pirated their stuff but thats all there is to it.
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Elektro wrote:
I really hope they go out of business and go live under some bridge... bastards deserve this..
.......
Have you read the article? (http://www.elbox.com/news_02_11_18b.html)
I personally agree with Elbox.
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Did you read my posting? The driver was a trojan. This is illegal.
Yes, and as I said in an earlier post, I agree with your position and stance protecting your software and/or reputation. I don't blame you at all in that aspect. I probably would have done the same :-)
I just don't agree with of obtaining the driver by piracy- that is illegal. As I said, how were the end-users to be aware that the driver you tested been hacked/cracked? I certainly understand you wouldn't want to reveal 'where' you got the driver, but it doesn't look good to the outsider.
I just don't understand why you had to take that step. Why not just discontinue support for "usb.device" until Elbox answered up about the RDB code? If there was/is a dispute with Elbox over having the driver, why didn't you refuse to allow the "usb.device" to work with Poseidon in the first place? I just don't see pirating the driver as a necessary step towards protecting users of Poseidon, that's all.
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all registered users have received appropriate updates.
Complete BS. I didn't get any update. I have gotten all the updates up to now, at least.
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I think there is no law that says that this what Elbox did is illegal,
it is better to say it is unmorale.
But either the way, I don't care. I have Mediator and SpiderUSB,
and everything works OK.
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Complete BS. I didn't get any update. I have gotten all the updates up to now, at least.
Me neither, I have never had problems receiving them before so I guess they havent released them yet!
Not sure if I should install them or not, even if they do release them. What kind of new "safeguard" could they have added.
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all you have written is besides the point. elbox (or anyone else for that matter) is not the authority with legal right to mess with your HD. they can sue you if they know you hacked / pirated their stuff but thats all there is to it.
Just try to keep things a little fair. Looks like Elbox is the only bad party here. I'll never trust a anom. Hacker, even if what he said seems to be true for some part.
I do agree that such should never be in any driver or other OS stuff... Mind, I have yet to see from both sides any proof of what the code does or doesn't do. (The "hacker" -> Driver destroys RDB and data when something goes wrong; Elbox -> driver destroys unimportant bit of RDB no data is ever lost.)
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> Yes, and as I said in an earlier post, I agree with your position and
> stance protecting your software and/or reputation. I don't blame you at all
> in that aspect. I probably would have done the same
Okay, thanks.
> I just don't agree with of obtaining the driver by piracy- that is
> illegal.
I admit, you've got a point there. But the archive was sent in by an
meditator user on my request. I just looked at the archive contents and
that's it. No distribution, no other use. As I said, I wanted to be sure
the CD contents were okay, as Elbox didn't send me a reference copy.
> As I said, how were the end-users to be aware that the driver you
> tested been hacked/cracked?
First, the driver was sent in months before the illegal code claims were
made first (1.2). Second, why should the same code be in two different
versions, moreover with the hacker/cracker needing to re-establish the
encryption? But yes, I could not be 100% sure, but only 99,999%.
> I certainly understand you wouldn't want to reveal 'where' you got the
> driver, but it doesn't look good to the outsider.
See above.
> I just don't understand why you had to take that step. Why not just
> discontinue support for "usb.device" until Elbox answered up about the RDB
> code?
Okay, this is the mail I sent to Elbox in the night from 12th to 13th
November:
> Dear Elbox,
>
> after the 'rumors' on ANN.lu about your driver containing a code section,
> which will destroy the RDB on purpose, I was very worried. After no
> clarification was made by you until yet, I verified, if the code was really
> in your driver, or if it was just a hoax (which I hoped for). A Mediator
> user sent me the contents of the Spider CD some weeks ago and I let the
> usb.device 1.2 decode itself and searched for the "RDSK" keyword in the
> decoded driver in memory (no disassembly was being done).
>
> To my terror, I could find the string, as well as the "SYS" string that was
> also mentionend in the disassembled code formerly posted on ANN.lu.
>
> I cannot tolerate that people risk the loss of data (i.e. by the code being
> triggered by accident, which can happen at any time due to the Amiga not
> having memory protection) and this destruction being done on purpose by
> your driver (which is highly illegal here in Germany and in most other
> countries aswell). Therefore, I ask you to immediately remove this kind of
> code of the usb.device and release an update to the registered users.
> Posting a public apology to the users out there, who risked their data by
> using your code, is also demanded.
>
> Otherwise, to protect myself from being held liable for potential damages
> done, resulting in the use of Poseidon together with your driver, I will
> have to protect the usb.device from being executed in the next update
> (which will be available right away) and will have to withdraw the
> permission to include Poseidon on your software distributions. Moreover, I
> will state in public that I also was able to find the malicious code in the
> driver, and I'm sure, that people will believe me.
>
> I ask you to respond to this mail until 14. November 2002, 12:00h,
> otherwise the things stated above will be initiated. It's your decision.
To this mail, Elbox responded on 14th November 11:48 with:
> You will find answers to all your doubts in our official statement:
> http://www.elbox.com/news_02_11_13a.html
... which was completly and utterly ignoring every word I wrote. Moreover,
they denied the existance of the code.
You see, I actually had given them a fair chance to do the right thing, but
they decided to deny it.
> If there was/is a dispute with Elbox over having the driver,
Nope. I didn't ask them (unfortunately) for it.
> why didn't you refuse to allow the "usb.device" to work with Poseidon
> in the first place?
Was there a reason to do this before?
> I just don't see pirating the driver as a necessary
> step towards protecting users of Poseidon, that's all.
Now pirating implicates that I would have acquired a copy of the driver to
actually use it, (crack/hack it?) or distribute it to other users. Neither
of this is case. I just obtained a copy for reference purposes. I'd rather
call it obtaining it through an inofficial channel.
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ikir: yeah i read it so?
seer: elbox is the only bad party here, they put that code into the driver and not hackers or pirates. even if it writes only one zero its still wrong.
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seer wrote:
I do agree that such should never be in any driver or other OS stuff... Mind, I have yet to see from both sides any proof of what the code does or doesn't do. (The "hacker" -> Driver destroys RDB and data when something goes wrong; Elbox -> driver destroys unimportant bit of RDB no data is ever lost.)
You overright the RDB on your boot drive, the computer doesnt boot, how on earth can this be thought of as doing something unimportant.
-Tig
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@Tiger,
You overright the RDB on your boot drive, the computer doesnt boot, how on earth can this be thought of as doing something unimportant.
Read the statement from Elbox, the code doesn't do that (according to Elbox, sorry, can't test this for myself. I would have done that by now if I could. Plenty of HD's here to screw over if need be). Again from Elbox;
RDB FACTS
How does it relate to the cracked USB driver in question? The only result of activation of the anti-piracy safeguard in the cracked code is overwriting the first RDB sector of the booting hard disk. This first RDB sector, named RDSK, does not contain ANY user data. This sector does not contain ANY information about disk partitioning, either. What is stored in this sector is only information about the model and parameters of the hard disk and technical information available in another part of the RDB. When the RDSK sector content is overwritten, recovering is quite simple. No backup copies of this RDB sector are necessary. All the information to be included in the RDSK sector can be read from the hard disk with HDToolBox software, even if this sector is completely overwritten. The five minutes of work needed to restore the RDSK sector does not seem to be a heavy punishment for stealing and/or cracking software...
I allready commented about this part, so I'm not going to again.
However, like I said no proof from either, both questionable, side, only that said code exists in one form or another...
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> However, like I said no proof
proof (http://ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1037284998&category=news&number=85)
Email the guy if you think the post is a fake.
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proof
Email the guy if you think the post is a fake.
I know that the code is there, still Chris doesn't say if the code destroyes the RDB or the "only" the RDSK part of the RDB. I doubt Chris is going to risk loosing his valuable data by trying it out, but he is the only creditable source so far to give some answers in this whole debate; there is RDB code inside the driver.
The proof I want; a creditable person stating that he tried to hack said driver and as a result lost all partions and data on his main HD, or that it doesn't do anything worse at all.
So far, the only thing people showed is some code that does something to the RDB when an uncertain event does something. We don't even know for sure when the code is triggered at all. Send me a working Amiga and a mediator and I will risk one of my old drives for ya :-)..
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seer wrote:
@Tiger,
You overright the RDB on your boot drive, the computer doesnt boot, how on earth can this be thought of as doing something unimportant.
Read the statement from Elbox, the code doesn't do that
I'm sorry the code mangles the first block of the RDB, they admit it does that, their response is that it only takes 5 minutes with HDTOOLBOX for that info to be read from other places in the RDB and restore it. Thats great except the drive wont boot without said block and if that drive is the boot one for your computer your computer wont boot without that block. So when you computer doesnt boot because of this issue, are you going to see it as a problem or a non-problem???
RDB FACTS
....
the RDSK sector content is overwritten, recovering is quite simple. No backup copies of this RDB sector are necessary. All the information to be included in the RDSK sector can be read from the hard disk with HDToolBox software, even if this sector is completely overwritten. The five minutes of work needed to restore the RDSK sector does not seem to be a heavy punishment for stealing and/or cracking software...
See, read from Harddisk and restored with 5 minutes of work. Thats great except 90+% of the amiga people arent going to realize that gee I could fix this with HDTOOLBOX and instead are going to lose their data when they reformat or throw away their drive. They are also likely to replace their drive because its failed on them now. Or are digging around in their floppies right now looking for a 3.1 install disk so they can boot up with hdtoolbox so they can fix a problem they wouldnt have with their drive if it wasnt for Elbox. I'm sorry this is a trojan of the worst sort and is being sent ON PURPOSE to elbox's customers.
-Tig
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@Tiger
How easy must it be to ommit or ignore this part This first RDB sector, named RDSK, does not contain ANY user data. This sector does not contain ANY information about disk partitioning, either. [/b]
The HD doesn't know about partitions, that's the vital info in the RDB, destroy that and only special tools, not HD-toolbox, can help you. Elbox clearly states this part of the RDB isn't affected.
What elbox describes, wether this is true or not, is that their codes overwrites a part of the RDB called RDSK in which hardware info is stored, the number of cylinders, numbers of drive heads etc, non vital info to boot the drive. This can be easily restored with HD-toolbox, and AFAIK is not even needed to boot from the drive, or at worse see and use the drive when booting from the WB disk.
Formatting the drive is not going to restore the RDB. IF the RDB is destroyed, use a specialized tool to read the lost partitions on the drive or HD-toolbox to repartition the drive as you can't even format a drive if the vital part of the RDB is destroyed. (How can you format if you don't have partitions ?)
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> I know that the code is there, still Chris doesn't say if the code
> destroyes the RDB or the "only" the RDSK part of the RDB.
It kills the four byte 'RDSK' ID of the RDSK block.
> I doubt Chris is going to risk loosing his valuable data by trying
> it out, but he is the only creditable source so far to give some
> answers in this whole debate; there is RDB code inside the driver.
I deleted the RDSK ID in the first block of my bootable USB ZIP drive (just
like the Elbox code would have done). On the next startup, it didn't boot
from it and no partitions were found.
I loaded up HDToolBox (OS3.1), it said "Unknown" at the ZIP drive line.
I called up "Change Drive Type", clicked on "Define New", "Read Configuration", then on "Ok"
I pressed "Save Changes to Drive". I did NOT call up "Partition Drive".
After this, the old partition data (PART block) had been erased. Gone.
Finito. There was the default "IDH0" partition, but my former SFS partition
was gone. If I had more partitions on my ZIP, they would be gone aswell. In
case I could /remember/ the *exact* values for each partition, I might be
able to reconstruct the partitions without loss of data. But who has these
numbers written down somewhere?
Anyway, a normal user without an disk monitor and the required knowledge
has to reconstruct *all* the rigid disk blocks. HDToolBox (at least the
OS3.1 one -- that's the only one I've got here) does NOT help at all (so
the things stated by Elbox in their press release is bullshit again).
> The proof I want; a creditable person stating that he tried to hack said
> driver and as a result lost all partions and data on his main HD, or that
> it doesn't do anything worse at all.
Is this enough for a proof? It effectivly kills all the partitioning data,
inhibiting the user to boot again from his harddisk by killing the 'root'
of the amiga autobooting and partitioning system, the RDSK block.
A really advanced user with lots of internal knowledge would have no
problems to fix the changes, but a novice/normal user? NO chance.
> So far, the only thing people showed is some code that does something to
> the RDB when an uncertain event does something. We don't even know for sure
> when the code is triggered at all.
Read the whole thread on ann.lu. There are a few people who have actually
triggered the code by a programm 'accidentially' overwriting one byte in
the driver.
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@platon42
ThanX, at least some proof.. About ANN, any "troll" can post there, on A.org this is a little more difficult as at least here only one can use a certain nick (Well most of the time.. Sometimes Bobson isn't Bobson :-P )..
Still, I did do awfull stuff to the RDB just for "fun" but never had the problems you described when destroying only the drivetype info that "should" reside in the RDSK.. Then again, I only did that on FFS drives, never did it when I got SFS or on a ZIP disk and hardly used HD-toolbox for the "advanced" stuff . Is it possible there are some diffrences on a ZIP RDB ? (Willing to risk your real IDE HD :-D;-))
Strange that your SFS partition was bey bey.. I know the filesystem is written to the RDB, but I thought it wasn't anywhere "near" the RDSK ?
Is this enough for a proof?
Would be better if you had a higher post count
;-) or if it came from Redrumloa, Kronos or Coder, but your post does give some good details to give sme credit. You know, it's not like the average "I did it" or "my source told me" type of posting without any backing of facts.
Read the whole thread on ann.lu. There are a few people who have actually
triggered the code by a programm 'accidentially' overwriting one byte in
the driver.
Like I said, ANN poster could be anyone. If I saw a post there from say Red, I take it with a grain of salt. If I see it here, I know almost 100% for sure it's Red.
Offcourse I could still say; you didn't use the driver and some hacking, just some self editing of the RDB but I'll let this pass by :-D
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I can assure you that I havn´t had a SINGLE problem with my
Amiga and I have both the PowerFlyer and one of the
"first-batch" Mediator A1200. I´m more worried about
running an old scene-demo than using Elbox stuff. :)
Not that I think they did the right thing, but seriously,
somewhere I can see why they did this. Too many companies
has gone down because they´ve been ripped off, and if
Elbox writes drivers that others will use with other PCI-
solutions and/or other PCI-cards than intended, Elbox would
not earn any money they invested in developing the driver.
I don´t always agree with what they do, but I have alot of
confidence when it comes to their hardware and software, and
I´m happy when I find something I can buy that they have
produced.
Roll on, SharkPPC+
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Would be better if you had a higher post count
Umm..actually that is Chris Hodges who wrote the Poseidon stack which the Spider uses....
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Like I said, ANN poster could be anyone. If I saw a post there from say Red, I take it with a grain of salt. If I see it here, I know almost 100% for sure it's Red.
LOL I see my name mentioned alot in your post, I am sooo flattered:-D
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Umm..actually that is Chris Hodges who wrote the Poseidon stack which the Spider uses....
Well... Yes, it does say so in the signature, but with "only 7" post it's a little hard to give him that real credit. I do take his word that this is the real Chris Hodges (Edit:Tho I could email him offcourse, just noticed the Email addy), and if you are backing his / this post as comming from Chris then I'll take you're word for it. You have proven yourself as a reliable poster.
Anyway, that maybe one of the biggest problem of the Internet. Anybody can claim to be or know anybody, and it's hard to proof it either way. That's why I asked all the question about this in the first place anyway. No real proof from a reliable source (untill now hopefully)..
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LOL I see my name mentioned alot in your post, I am sooo flattered
You're welcome. But with close to 2500 posts, I think we can safely say you are one of the better known A-Orgers here...
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, and if you are backing his / this post as comming from Chris then I'll take you're word for it.
Well looking at his profile I'd say this is definately him, hard to fake a registered user's email address with A-Org's registration policy:-)
You have proven yourself as a reliable poster
Thanks for the compliment :-D
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OK! I have two Harddisks. All partitions are SFS.
I want to know how can I trigger that s**t! I want
to try that, and see what happens! I made backup!
I don't know why, but I have feeling that someone
wants to harm ELBOX, regardless of this RDISK thing!
Why is this world of amiga so unAmiga last years.
Lots of divided people!
If there was no mediator I would sure go PC way! I
could not stand slow AGA graphisc anymore!
I'm sad now!
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@Ponos2D
If I were you, I'd just get and use the most recent "fixed" driver from Elbox. You already own the hardware.
As for testing yourself, the first thread on ANN has alot of detail how to do the test yourself.
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I don't understand this caos.... The code was only dangerous for cracker, not for normal user..... it was a protection from other companies.....
I agree with Elbox in this point.
and then, Mediator change my amiga..... I can work with my amiga (in a internet point), only because i have a mediator with Voodoo3, Sb, and a very cheap ethernetcard!
Elbox had powered up old amiga, and bring them back to life in my opinion. See waht can offers other pci solution..... :-(
CLICK HERE (http://www.elbox.com/tests/comparison_en.html) for COMPARISON
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ikir wrote:
I don't understand this caos.... The code was only dangerous for cracker, not for normal user..... it was a protection from other companies.....
I agree with Elbox in this point.
Wrong, first of all what they did is illegal in several countries, including the US. Secondly, it takes one stray pointer, one PCI misread etc, to set off a program that makes your drive unusable until (at best case) you run HDToolbox (Elboxs version) or permanently lose the data (everyone who's actually tested it). If you downloaded a program that did this, and it became known, it would be killed from aminet, why should elbox's official drivers be held to a lower standard.
-Tig
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seer wrote:
What elbox describes, wether this is true or not, is that their codes overwrites a part of the RDB called RDSK in which hardware info is stored, the number of cylinders, numbers of drive heads etc, non vital info to boot the drive. This can be easily restored with HD-toolbox, and AFAIK is not even needed to boot from the drive, or at worse see and use the drive when booting from the WB disk.
You arent think clearly, and you are incorrect in your assumption. Think about it, if you were correct and the first block of the RDB (There words for what they are messing with) was not needed for the drive to work correctly, then there code does nothing, and they have no reason to say it only takes 5 minutes to fix with HDToolbox if it doesnt need to be fixed, and noone on ANN would have realized that this was happening, because there computers would have booted fine, etc. Can you fix this issue with HDToolbox?? Maybe, Chris Hodges wasnt able to, and I would not consider him a novice user by any stretch of the imagination. I worry about all those with much less experience then Chris who are supposed to figure out how to save important date on there computer because they ran DPaint 4.5 (the Enforcer hit version) while having this elbox driver installed.
-Tig
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ikir wrote:
I don't understand this caos.... The code was only dangerous for cracker, not for normal user..... it was a protection from other companies.....
I agree with Elbox in this point.
The code doesn`t stop anyone reverse engineering their drivers,( which according to Elbox is why they put the "protection code" in ).
It only stops the average user trying to force Elbox`s drivers to work with other cards.
Why didn`t they just use a simple error message or requester saying it only works with a Spider?
As for the code being dangerous ONLY to crackers..
bollocks..
Any virus or buggy/badly coded app could write into the memory used by the driver. Overwrite the driver at a certain location and the RDB code is triggered. OK, the posibility of that happening is VERY small, but it`s still a posibility.
As to your view that Elbox was right to do this..
1. Putting destructive code into a program and executing it without users constent is illegal in Europe..even for "copy protection". As the saying goes "Two wrongs don`t make a right"
2. Elbox first denied any such code existed, saying it was a FUD campaign against them.
3. Elbox later admit to the code, but still don`t apologise or even recognise what they did was illegal. Instead, they said the code was removed because their was no/little point to it since it became public knowledge !
( I won`t even start on how they screwed the P96 guys + several others)
If you want to carry on supporting a company with morals like this, then fine, it`s your money, and it`s your choice.
I was seriously thinking of getting a mediator for either my 4000 or my trusty old 1200, but since this whole can of worms has opened up, I`ll be saving my money for either an A1 or PegasOS.
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Zadoc, you must be kidding.
Don't you know who Chris Hodges is? He's the man behind the Paula 14-bit DeliGenie. He's the man that made possible for Elbox to make their friggin USB driver compatible with his universal Poseidon stack. I'm sure having much more confidence in this guy than in any Elbox PR out there. At least he didn't try to wipe my HD out with hidden and illegal trojans.
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The proof I want; a creditable person stating that he tried to hack said driver and as a result lost all partions and data on his main HD, or that it doesn't do anything worse at all.
proof2 (http://flyingmice.com/squid/moobunny/amiga/messages/79985.shtml)
But I dunno about credibility of this guy. :-)
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any news on the sharkPPC?
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@seer:
>ThanX, at least some proof..
Sigh. You rather believe Elbox with their "facts", which again obviously are *wrong* again.
>About ANN, any "troll" can post there,
Sigh. If you are that sceptic, why don't you are this with the statements of Elbox aswell, instead of repeatedly posting their statements as dogmatic truth?
>Still, I did do awfull stuff to the RDB just for "fun"
How did you do this? With a disk monitor? Or with
HDToolbox? With the latter, changing the RDSK geometry information does not harm the partitioning data.
>but never had the problems you described when destroying only the drivetype info that "should" reside in the RDSK.
How did you "destroy only the drivetype info"?
>Is it possible there are some diffrences on a ZIP RDB ? (Willing to risk your real IDE HD )
No, there is NO difference.
>Strange that your SFS partition was bey bey.. I know the filesystem is written to the RDB, but I thought it wasn't anywhere "near" the RDSK ?
The PART-blocks, which hold the information about where partitions start and all the filesystem parameters, is stored directly after the RDSK.
>>Is this enough for a proof?
>Would be better if you had a higher post count
Now, excuse me, that's stupid. You really think that if this account was faked, the "real" Chris Hodges wouldn't immediately cry out and tell Wayne that there's a fake account of him? Argh.
>Offcourse I could still say; you didn't use the driver and some hacking, just some self editing of the RDB but I'll let this pass by
I really cannot help you then. I'll give it up. Believe whatever is easier for you to believe.
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Zadoc, you must be kidding.
I'm afraid not.
Don't you know who Chris Hodges is? He's the man behind the Paula 14-bit DeliGenie. He's the man that made possible for Elbox to make their friggin USB driver compatible with his universal Poseidon stack.
I don't care if he worked beside Jay Miner, the fact is the driver he used to make his conclusions from was PIRATED and therefore reduces any credibility I have over his findings, and also doesn't look very good about his reputation.
I'm sure having much more confidence in this guy than in any Elbox PR out there. At least he didn't try to wipe my HD out with hidden and illegal trojans.
If you've actually read what I have written in earlier posts in this thread, including a few posts to Mr. Hodges himself, I AGREE with him aside from accepting a pirated driver and posting his findings from a driver which has no credibility due to piracy. I simply think this was unnecessary and undermines his credibility, which otherwise I agree with him in his other decisions concerning the matter.
Personally, if obtaining a copy of the driver was something Mr. Hodges felt justified in having he should have demanded it from Elbox from the start - no driver, no support for the Spider under Posiedon. And upon hearing about the RDB code, instead of ripping apart a pirated driver (which may or may not have been hacked/cracked) he should have just went ahead and pulled support for the Spider card until Elbox fixed the situation themselves.
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I don't care if he worked beside Jay Miner, the fact is the driver he used to make his conclusions from was PIRATED and therefore reduces any credibility I have over his findings, and also doesn't look very good about his reputation.
Whoa whoa whoa!! insinuating Chris Hodges is a pirate IMO is uncalled for and wrong. He wrote the Stack for the Spider, and he is legally entitled to know if his product is is being bundled with blatantly illegal software. This is serious, any potential lawsuits against Elbox could also affect him! Besides considering his stack is part of the MMCD, he's by default co-copyright owner of it. The industry standard would be for Elbox to send Chris a CD when published, but obviously Elbox does not conform to any industry standards or laws for that matter. :-x
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Whoa whoa whoa!! insinuating Chris Hodges is a pirate IMO is uncalled for and wrong.
Wow, I don't see how everyone is misunderstanding what I have expressed in previous posts. According to Mr. Hodges he obtained the driver from "a Mediator owner at his request" which is not the best way to go about the situation, and regardless of whether Chris Hodges has the right to own the driver the 'kind Mediator owner' did not have the right to supply it. How is anyone to know if this driver hasn't been cracked/hacked or even used legally and corrupted by a bad FFS error? As I said in my last post if obtaining the driver was important he should have demanded it from Elbox from the beginning. If they failed to deliver a driver then no Posiedon support for the Spider card.
This is serious, any potential lawsuits against Elbox could also affect him!
Which is why I agree with the rest of his decisions concerning Poseidon support for the Spider driver.
Besides considering his stack is part of the MMCD, he's by default co-copyright owner of it. The industry standard would be for Elbox to send Chris a CD when published, but obviously Elbox does not conform to any industry standards or laws for that matter.
Exactly. Which is why this probably should have been taken care of in writing in the form of a contract. If Elbox fail to oblige their side of the bargain to deliver the driver he has a recourse and should have dropped all support for Elbox's spider card.
Before anyone else misunderstands what I am trying to say, I am not trying to defend Elbox nor lead a personal attack on Chris Hodges. I am simply saying that obtaining the driver in that method is not wise legally, or credibly for proof of the RDB code.
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seer wrote:
....About ANN, any "troll" can post there, on A.org this is a little more difficult as at least here only one can use a certain nick (Well most of the time.. Sometimes Bobson isn't Bobson :-P )..
??? I dont get what you mean? :-)
I'm always here dude - I never post on Ann :-)
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If they did not make amiga hardware would you still be defending them?
Elbox has been exposed, which they CAN NOT be trusted,
Their actions in the real world are unacceptable but hell they do amiga hardware so lets all turn a blind eye or even help them code more trojans.
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The Elbox saga has made the Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=6302). Not sure if this is good news. At least people will now that the amiga is still alive, and kicking.
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Elbox now have lost all credibility.
They say they only removed the code because that "protection measure" (!) became public knowledge. So obviously the new versions will have another, different but similar, piece of code in them, which will maybe format your hard disk, or email your files to Elbox, or whatever...
Who knows? Will every piece of software released by Elbox need to be disassembled by the community to see if it is safe? I suspect so. Oh, sorry, disassembling it is illegal, they claim. So we can't even do that. We are going to have to believe them after they have admitted lying about the existence of the code, and making false allegations about copyright infringement.
I mean, how do Elbox even know that it was a pirated copy that was disassembled? Where is the proof? The only proof we have is the proof that Elbox have put this evil code in their software, and then lied about it.
Amigan Software has joined the boycott against Elbox. We will not be purchasing, supporting or endorsing any of their hardware or software.
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@Zadoc
> How is anyone to know if this driver hasn't been
> cracked/hacked or even used legally and corrupted
> by a bad FFS error?
Reality check!?
The existance of the routine was verified by several unbiased 3rd parties.
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We will not be purchasing, supporting or endorsing any of their hardware or software.
I hope many other people follow that route instead of all this Elbox hero worshiping,
Should the amiga community believe anything Elbox says?? NO and the amiga community must NOT support Elbox in any way shape or form to make a point, but Elbox will be forgiven and hero worshiped by the die hards.
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@platon42
Sigh. You rather believe Elbox with their "facts", which again obviously are *wrong* again.
Like I said, neither party suplied any proof that what they said was true, that means that neither the original poster nor Elbox gave any proof. YOU came with some thought out facts, something the original poster didn't (IMO) and Elbox still hasn't done (proof that their code doesn't render the HD unusable).
instead of repeatedly posting their statements as dogmatic truth?
I didn't. I just tried to explain how they see it as it seemed that their statement or parts of it were ignored just as many (parts of) statements made bij EG Amiga or Thendic are ignorred as it suits anybody who is against them (or for them).
How did you do this? With a disk monitor? Or with
HDToolbox?
Don't really remember, only that it was a beta or something but it wasn't called a disk monitor but a HD editor. Been about 6 years ago since I played with the RDB.
I also used a program a friend of mine developed but he never gave it to anybody except his friends (Was called LeDisk, but I doubt it still exists in any form, it was a real good thing to (ab)use. Allas he died 3 years ago, his family threw out most of his disk soon after he was cremated. At the time I didn't find it important to keep those disks myself. All other friends sold their miggy stuff eons ago) I must admit that I could be mistaken about only destroying the drivetype info tho. It's been far to long to remember.
>Is it possible there are some diffrences on a ZIP RDB ? (Willing to risk your real IDE HD )
No, there is NO difference.
Ok, thanx for the info. (Never used a zip on an Amiga)
>Would be better if you had a higher post count
Now, excuse me, that's stupid. You really think that if this account was faked, the "real" Chris Hodges wouldn't immediately cry out and tell Wayne that there's a fake account of him?
It's not that. AFAIK, I never spoken with you before, so I don't know you. If you had more posts (and if I read them offcourse) I could make a judgement on wheter I would just take your word for it or not. People like Coder, Redrumloa Kronos have a somewhat high post count and everybody here knows them and in a way how they think about certain thinks.
>Offcourse I could still say; you didn't use the driver and some hacking, just some self editing of the RDB but I'll let this pass by
I really cannot help you then. I'll give it up. Believe whatever is easier for you to believe.
It wasn't meant as an offensive. Like I said, you are the only one who posted (again, AFAIK) reliable info on a (IMHO) reliable website, unlike the postings on ANN (Don't read Moonbunny) where anybody can claim to be you or post stuff like "believe me, I know" without any facts or arguments.
But to conclude. If you say the RDB is thrashed after the Elbox code is triggered then I'll take your word for it. Enough typed about this I think.
On a different but not OT note; are you giving Elbox the rights back to distribute your software now they claim the offensive code is taken out ?
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@Bobson
??? I dont get what you mean? :-)
Sometimes you are at Axemans (Not sure I got the name rigth) place and you post with his account or vice versa by mistake :-). Always good for a laugh ;-)
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Ah, I see! :-) no risk of that happening now though - were 350 miles apart.... But I'll be due south this weekend to see MONSTERS OF ROCK IN CARDIFF - Alice Cooper live :-D :-D :-D :pint: :pint:
The Axeman and me are both going - its Axemans birthday as well, he's gonna be hitting 25 (Old man :-P )
Its gonna be a huge laugh. I've managed to get three days off, so I go down on the saturday - see Alice on the monday, come back up on the Tuesday, spend Wednesday with Tamar, then back in work on the Thursday :-)
Its a shame that there is not a ROCK smiley :-D
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Its a shame that there is not a ROCK smiley
(http://www.plauder-smilies.de/party/ylsuper.gif)
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@seer
> Like I said, neither party suplied any proof that what they said was
> true, that means that neither the original poster nor Elbox gave any proof.
Well, Qwe released a tool to decode the driver and see for yourself.
>> Now, excuse me, that's stupid. You really think that if this account was faked, the "real" Chris Hodges wouldn't immediately cry out and tell Wayne that there's a fake account of him?
>
>It's not that. AFAIK, I never spoken with you before, so I don't know you. If you had more posts (and if I read them offcourse) I could make a judgement on wheter I would just take your word for it or not.
Normally, I don't take much part in these news forums -- most of it is a lot of time wasted.
> People like Coder, Redrumloa Kronos have a somewhat high post count and everybody here knows them and in a way how they think about certain thinks.
Sure. I do post to amiga-news.de or ann.lu a bit more often than on amiga.org.
>> I really cannot help you then. I'll give it up. Believe whatever is easier for you to believe.
>
> It wasn't meant as an offensive.
Neither from me. I didn't feel offended, rather just... well, like talking
to a wall that's always in doubt. I feel a bit exhausted, you see. Like all
this discussion leading nowhere (because we both have our opions and won't
let us persuade or deceive ourselfs -- which is actually a GoodThing(TM) ).
> But to conclude. If you say the RDB is thrashed after the Elbox code is triggered then I'll take your word for it. Enough typed about this I think.
I hope so. Going on much too long now :-\
> On a different but not OT note; are you giving Elbox the rights back to
> distribute your software now they claim the offensive code is taken out ?
usb.device version with the offending code removed will remain working, but
no, distibution rights will not be regained by denying having done
something wrong and illegal and not apologizing, or offending me and
calling me a cracker or pirate. You see, I do not trust Elbox anymore and
co-operation has to be based on trust first.
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A WHAT!? An UNIMPORTANT BIT OF THE RDB!?
Ok... If you say so... Now try to recover the rdb
after the RDSK Sect 0 has been overwritten...
Guess what, if you try to do that with HDToolBox,
it will not see the drive, you'll have to reread it's
specs, save it, and GUESS WHAT, it will rewrite
the rest of the RDB, including the partition data.
Only experienced programmers and registered
owners of RDBSalv will be able to recover it
"easily".
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IT'S PIRATED!? OH SHOCK HORROR!
HE'S ONE OF IT'S COPYRIGHT HOLDERS YOU SHEEP!
HE made this driver possible by making his USB stack. The driver uses HIS API.
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It seems that I accidentally made new thread instead of replying here - my apologies.. here it goes again:
So for all you windoze users and Elbox-bashers, what are your suggestions for upgrade, if Elbox is to be boycotted? WinXP?
Not all of us are running Windoze-boxes here, and getting Classic Amigas up to date, some form of PCI is required.
Prometheus?
- Not too many drivers, no DMA.
- DMA is not supported even in AmigaOS4.0, if Matay doesn't provide new roms for it.
G-Rex?
-No future support in OS4.0
-Not many new drivers since Pegasos started to gain space.
Elbox Mediator?
-No, they are the bad guys.
-It is the best and most commonly used PCI-solution. hw-wise
-It WILL be supported in AmigaOS4.0, as stated by Hyperion. OS4.0 pci.library and PCI-peripheral-drivers will be coded by Hyperion & that 3rd party drivergroup who are responsible for those.
Draw your own conclusions. Should I and others just stop using them, hope that this boycott will do it's job, and lose the complete support from Elbox?
I'll personally buy AmigaOne and/or Pegasos, but i would still like to upgrade my A4k/PPC/060 to the max
I can see no excuses what Elbox did, but they made sort of apology by removing that evil piece of code. Not nearly enough. And now they are under heavy surveillance, and probably won't try it again. What penalty would you think would be enough? Just hope that no-one buys Amiga stuff from them anymore, and get rid of this cancer of amiga? Sometimes I can't understand these continuous bashings, when majority of those who are loudly making their points out over and over again are not even (current/potential) users of Elbox' products.
-q
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(http://ftp://hisel:hisel@80.5.0.144/downloads/RDBKILLERjpg.jpg)
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IT'S PIRATED!? OH SHOCK HORROR!
HE'S ONE OF IT'S COPYRIGHT HOLDERS YOU SHEEP!
Wow...you don't read english very well do you? I never discredited him from holding copyright...go back and read my posts again I am am tired of repeating my argument.
For some reason I almost feel like I've stumbled on to Ann.lu...
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For some reason you wrote that he's discredited
cause he pirated his own property....
Reread your post.
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(http://ftp://hisel:hisel@80.5.0.63/downloads/KH.jpg)
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I deleted the RDSK ID in the first block of my bootable USB ZIP drive (just
like the Elbox code would have done). On the next startup, it didn't boot
from it and no partitions were found.
I loaded up HDToolBox (OS3.1), it said "Unknown" at the ZIP drive line.
I called up "Change Drive Type", clicked on "Define New", "Read Configuration", then on "Ok"
I pressed "Save Changes to Drive". I did NOT call up "Partition Drive".
>After this, the old partition data (PART block) had been erased. Gone.
>Finito. There was the default "IDH0" partition, but my former SFS partition
>was gone. If I had more partitions on my ZIP, they would be gone aswell. In
>case I could /remember/ the *exact* values for each partition, I might be
>able to reconstruct the partitions without loss of data. But who has these
>numbers written down somewhere?
I went through this not too long ago. I got an 18gig drive, using OS3.9. When I got a CD burner, I decided to make an 800MB partition at the top of the 18gig, as the previous top partition wasn't rally used, and I did want it smaller to only fit the amount of data a CDROM can take, in order to assemble iso files for burning backups and such.
Well, at that time, OS3.9 format command had a bug that couldn't deal with partitions above the 4gig line when doing a full format, though quick formats would be fine. I didn't know this bug, and of course ended up doing a full format on this top partition. Since OS3.9 format had the bug, it didn't format the top 800MB, it wrapped around and trashed the bottom 4gig area including my system partition and Mac emulator partitions, and also wiped out the RDBs.
So, my system was now completely unusable.
Teh data above that 4gig mark was still there, and still intact, but was in a state of limbo. I tried disksalv, but without RDBs, there was no partition to salv. I got the OS3.9 beta of another salvage tool, but it also was unable to do anything without RDBs. I tried guessing partition sizes and locations, and using a disk editor, and managed to get close, but still had some problems.
While the disk editor allowed me to get close, I wasn't able to recover anything usefully. Turned out, this drive had been partitioned using OS3.1 HDtoolbox, which used a 512 default block size, and OS3.9 HDtoolbox used a 1024 block size, and I was trying to salvage and guess new partitions using OS3.9 recover disk with OS3.9 HDtoolbox, which kept making half my partitions one half block size off, the closest I could get until someone helped me understand this and OS3.1 HDToolbox worked fine.
I have since registered a copy of RDBsalv and this OS3.9 disk recovery tool (sorry, forget its name) so I will be prepared if this ever happens again.
But, this first time, it took **3 MONTHS** to recover my data. My main computer was UNUSABLE for this entire 3 months. My data was inaccessible. My software was unusable. I had to USE WINDOWS for cryin out loud, it was that bad.
So, with someone testing and finding that Elbox's supposed method of recovery indeed does not bring the old partitions back to life, I fear going through my experience above again. 5 minutes my ass.
If the RDB partition table is indeed overwritten by HDtoolbox in Elbox's recovery situation (as it thinks it's defining a new drive for the first time), and you don't have those RDBs backed up somewhere, YOU ARE REALLY REALLY SCREWED. I found out the hard way with OS3.9's format bug.
I won't be finding out if some other softwar ebug triggers a hidden Elbox piracy protection scheme, be it this RDSK or whatever they changed it to that might be just as bad or worse. The only Elbox thing I have is an IDE buffer for my 1200, for the sole purpose of using their AllegroCDFS software (it's the hardware dongle, I don't actually use the hardware for IDE stuff) but I ended up using AsimCDFS anyway. I won't be using any other of their products now. Piracy protection is not a good reason to put destructive code in an unprotected environment, as there's no *guarantee* it won't go off outside of Elbox's intentions. It's impossible to *guarantee* it *can not* go off outside of Elbox's intentions. Therefore it is a bad idea. Find a non-destructive way of doing things, that's OK.
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Within 24 hours I will have a nice video clip available on the net for your enjoyment. Basically I'm going to have a mini elbox flag produced and then video the burning of it. I'm sure all those with the disgust of elbox will enjoy it......
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createcoms wrote:
Within 24 hours I will have a nice video clip available on the net for your enjoyment. Basically I'm going to have a mini elbox flag produced and then video the burning of it. I'm sure all those with the disgust of elbox will enjoy it......
Bha'...... If you enjoy it.....
I want to remeber you that the 99% of Amiga Tower (Power Tower and E/BOX) are form elbox, as the ide doubler, pci solution and many other things.....
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Well we are all back in the dark ages aren't we?
Whats next? Flaming torches?
Sure I think putting customer's systems deliberately at even a remote risk is a terrible mistake but don't you think that
you are all going a teensy weensy bit too far even in jest?
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(http://ftp://hisel:hisel@80.5.0.63/downloads/RDBKILLERj2.jpg)
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I am beginning to see what wayne was talking
about, I think I need a break too.