Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: ruben on November 18, 2002, 03:00:48 PM
-
Hi!
I'd like to let you know that I'm currently working on Protracker 5.0, which will be the next chapter in the Amiga tracker series that we all know. I already got the 'ok' from Thomas Beyer, author of Protracker 3.x/4.0.
I started this project because I have a strong emotional link to this (I composed a lot of tunes in the Noise/Pro trackers back in the 'good old days' (tm) ) and I simply can not let this program die.
Also I'm not completely happy with current tracker programs now available, even on Windows.
The program is beeing written from scratch, in C++, which means new ideas can be implemented and expanded easily.
So I was wondering if anyone has some ideas of what you'd like to see in a tracker and what should the new Protracker feature.
All ideas/suggestions are welcome (even the wild ones ;-) )
-
Woo! Thats great! I still love protracker. OK, heres my wishlist for it:
* Make it OS friendly so it'll run on OS4, hey, why not a PPC native version if its all in C?
* Keep most of the controls in the same place so Protracker users won't get lost, BUT lose the custom file requester.
* Make the sample editor more useful
* Don't invent another mod format for multichannel mods! Use S3M, XM, or DBM (or all 3...)
* MP3 samples? Could be nice for long loops
* Plug in interface please! IE:
- Sample editor plugins
- Pre-mix plug ins (that operate on a channel)
- Post-mix plug ins (that operate on the output)
-
has to be able to play sample lengths longer than 5 seconds which I seem to remember was why I converted to Octamed - it`ll be great to see such a cool tracker back on the scene!
Good luck with it and let us know when it nearing completion!!! :-D
-
Don't forget sample disk saving, for burning and encoding purposes.
-
Oh wait.. i just figured out that some of my suggestions would require a new mod format.. so.. uhh... ignore the suggestion about formats :-D
-
Yeah, MO3 (http://un4seen.com/music/music_mo3.html) support would be really cool (whatever the DeliPlayer authors may think of it).
Ruben, thanks for your immortal commitment to the Amiga ;-)
-
@tickly
* MP3 samples? Could be nice for long loops
That would be a great way to reduce the module size. However they could be unpacked in memory when loading the module. (playing like 64 channels of realtime mp3 plus all effects would require quite a bit of raw cpu power :), but not stored back again every time unless edited so that quality is not lost everytime.
Anyway, about the original query:
- Midi support (it's nice to use a real keyboard :) Perhaps some compabilities to existing real keyboard trackers? (Haven't followed that world for a while)
- Sample editor (mixing, volume fading, rescaling, chip tune to sample and so on)
- Chip sound generator
- Multichannel, XM/s3m support or similar.
- Keep the general look and feel of the classic protracker. Multicolored tracker lines. Colored output bars for each channel. Black (+optional) blackground behind the tracker lines. I just hate when a tracker uses the general WB look. A tracker must look a bit 3l33t IMHO :)
- Ability to fade single channels between right/left.
- Tracks with any length.
You could also think a bit about surround 5.1 (like front left/right, back left/right, center speakers) or better playback in the future. That would be nice as well.
(Edit: And yeah, Os4.x support :)
/Björn
-
Thanks Tickly
Some of your ideas go right into what I had in mind as well.
A native OS4 version should indeed be just a recompile, unfortunately I can't afford an A1 myself, but I'm sure I'll find someone to do it, so it won't be a problem.
btw, the new gui is written in SDL and the loader/player engine is based on a modified MikMod library (that will be released under LGPL of course), so no new formats.
-
@Rudei
has to be able to play sample lengths longer than 5 seconds
Well that's for sure! ;)
You can expect it to be able to cope with 16bit stereo samples with no restrictions.
@Orgin
I plan to keep the original look and feel, the gui can run full screen with it's very own sub-windows and gagdets like it always was, but now skinnable.
-
This sounds really great, if support for multichannel and 16BIT stereo-samples
will be included!!! Octamed Soundstudio is scrapped, so I guess
this little piece will be very much welcome!
Good luck with your work! :)
-
Hi!
I'd like to let you know that I'm currently working on Protracker 5.0, which will be the next chapter in the Amiga tracker series that we all know. I already got the 'ok' from Thomas Beyer, author of Protracker 3.x/4.0.
I started this project because I have a strong emotional link to this (I composed a lot of tunes in the Noise/Pro trackers back in the 'good old days' (tm) ) and I simply can not let this program die.
Also I'm not completely happy with current tracker programs now available, even on Windows.
The program is beeing written from scratch, in C++, which means new ideas can be implemented and expanded easily.
So I was wondering if anyone has some ideas of what you'd like to see in a tracker and what should the new Protracker feature.
All ideas/suggestions are welcome (even the wild ones )
YES! :) I hope you pull it threw. My wishes are quite
simple for a new tracker.
Take ProTracker, make GUI systemfriendly, make
audio use and take advantage of AHI, and a plus
would be MIDI-support.
I do NOT want a freekin multiwindow-tracker.
:-D
-
I'm kinda new to the music thing, I don't remember ProTracker. What it looks like, how it works etc.. I did have a dabble with OctaMed but all those numbers got on my nerves.
I am however currently stuck with an AtariST on my desk using CuBass (No 'e' ;-) ) & I really do wanna get rid of the machine.
Soooo.... at the risk of sounding stupid (I have a nasty feeling ProTracker is closer to OctaMed than CuBass) I hope ProTracker can replace CuBass with ALL the MIDI support I need because I have a separate sampler, mixing desk & keyboard so I have no use for AHI in this case (I know lots of people do want to use their computer for everything).
It really would need to be able to import & export files (*.song, *.arr etc..) to/from CuBass so that I can take my work to other studios without the worry of compatability.
That's ALL I want, to get rid of the ST :-D
-
Can you please include some easily implemented source routines and examples for playing back mods in games/demos etc? (either in C or 68k / PPC asm). And if you could keep the replayer under about 4k that would be cool also. P61 has bugs.
-
One word: Keyjazz!
I was also thinking about some sort of instrument editor (volume/panning envelopes, reso filters etc;)
Great to have a new Protracker comin' up! :-)
Regards,
Rory
-
Well, a lot of the important stuff has been mentioned already, but I'll add a couple of things.
- Effect plugins applicable to a single channel, an x number of channels, or the entire mix. Preferably with an open API, so that 3rd parties can also write new plugins.
- Disk writer supporting at least WAVE and AIFF, maybe even OGG (MP3 would probably bring licensing problems?). An extremely cool feature would be 24bit/96KHz quality support here.
-
It would be cool to see routines coded to use the EMU10k1 chip onboard the SB live. The chip itself can mix 64 16-bit channels with effects with no CPU time. I have gotten used to this method on my wintel box, as I do most of my tracking with Impulse Tracker on my Gravis Ultrasound PNP / AWE64.
And as mentioned above, a small plug-in player would be nice for developers to be able to use tracked music for games, webites, etc.
-
I always found the menu system in protracker cluttered and over complicated. Improve it.
-
It's been a few years (a lot really), since I've used ProTracker, so I don't really know what recent versions are capable of, but a thing I have been missing in both Amiga and PC trackers is improved mapping capabilities.
To be able to use multisamples (of ALL keys) and map each sample to a different key on the keyboard, and being able to fine tune and transpose each sample individually.
-
Hi!
Great that someone wants to develop Protracker, but getting all those
new features will be a hard job. Are you developing alone ?
Hopefully there could be some kind of Open-Source Protracker-project,
because it would be almost impossible to make a near perfect tracker
alone.
Maybe there's still interest in some amiga-coders ?!? although Protrackers
source-codes have been available for quite a while now. Have thought about
setting up a team ? Even for a top-notch coder it would atleast take a lot
of time to make the current protracker4 into a complete new and good multichannel
tracker.
In my mind, I think it's necessary to focus on the key aspects of an tracker and
keep f.e Sample Editor to the basic because every can and should use SFX/Samplitude or
other specified program for sample editing. Just making a decent sample-editing software/plugin
would take "years" so maybe an Arexx-import/export option to an external sample-editor would do
the trick better.
-
>Great that someone wants to develop Protracker, >but getting all those
>new features will be a hard job. Are you developing > alone ?
ATM yes, but I'm not coding an entire tracker from scratch (that would be a daunting task). The new version will use a (possibly modified) port of the MikMod library, which already does the loading/playing bits which is the most complicated part when putting together a tracker.
It will eventually support plug-ins so more people can help by developing that.
I'd like to thank you all for your feedback! I hope to have a webpage for the project with more info and screenshots!
Cheers,
Ruben
-
:-D:-D:-D:-D:-D
Yay!!! Thank you for doing this. This is just what the new Amigas need: classic software freshened up. Imagine an old ex-user, thinking that the platform is completely dead, and then he sees PROTRACKER, in a new version running on a high resoltion screen. Okay, not a killer app on its own maybe, but it should send out a really positive message, and Protracker is a very recognizeable piece of software. I think it will be very good for the Amiga's "product identity".
Anyway, this is great news. I made a few modules in the old days. They were kind of crap, but it was great fun. Stuff I want the most in the new version:
*OS friendliness, in particular, OS4+AmigaOne friendliness.
*MIDI support. I wanna use my keyboard!!!
*Sorry if I am clueless, but: One of the things that annoyed me a bit when working with samples was that their length was altered when played at different frequencies (ie different tones). If there is any way of altering the frequency without altering the length, I want it implemented! :-)
Good luck! I really hope you succeed! :-D
Kay
-
All right! It's about time someone starting rethinking the idea of a tracker (probably the only was I'll ever make music on a computer).
My biggest complaint about ProTracker was the awful GUI. But then, I never liked the "standardized" GUI used in OctaMed 5, and later, OctaMed SoundStudio. I think the MED 3.0 interface is pretty much ideal. :-) But hey, this is ProTracker, not MED. Any ProTracker upgrade will be appreciated!
Features and gizmos are nice, of course, but the only things I'd really like to see different about any tracker includes sample compression and stereo/sensurround support.
Compression is really mandatory. Sample quality has improved a lot, and with stereo support, mods can get really huge. It really annoys me when 3-4 meg "modules" start showing up, in which case you might as well just make an MP3. Besides, decompression is REALLY getting insanely fast these days. I'd be more opt to support OGG compression. It's good, free, and free of patent issues (for now), so people might as well.
I'd also like to see proper panning and sensurround support. Panning was possible with FastTracker, but a real pain. I'd be nice to see what people can do with sensurround audio, too.
Personally, I think filtering, echo, reverb, and other audio effects can wait. I would just like to see a new interface, for now.
-
Kay wrote:
*MIDI support. I wanna use my keyboard!!!
*Sorry if I am clueless, but: One of the things that annoyed me a bit when working with samples was that their length was altered when played at different frequencies (ie different tones). If there is any way of altering the frequency without altering the length, I want it implemented! :-)
Ah yes, MIDI support is mandatory :-D
And yes, it would be great to have some sort of pitch shift - time preserved and vice versa but maybe this is more a job a plugin, I donno.
@ Wacoon
Music in surround??? :-D
Call me old fashioned but what's wrong with stereo? Surround is for movies and games. :-D
-
A port to AROS in due time :-D.
-
Some ideas...
Multichannel
Full envelope Control
Advanced Realtime Effects
(Phase shift/Echo/etc etc)
Which can all be be combined
(For example Pitchbend with sample offset changing with phase shift and echo :-) )
Support for Synthetic as well as Sampled instruments
(With control over waveform/ADSR/and more - like in ahx)
Multitasking, but still using asm for some parts making it fast and useable on 680x0
XPK/XFD/XAD Support :)
AHI Support but with also direct drivers for toccata output etc :)
That will do for now :-)
Perhaps you can keep me posted on progress buzz@totem.fix.no . Also, maybe you should post this to exotica forum as some music lovers there who might have some good ideas for you
http://exotica.fix.no
(Although server is being upgraded right now, web might be down for some hours)
-
Hi ruben,
Having experience with Digital Music software applications, I can recommend few things.
First, don't take PC applications as weak. You should use some of them to enjoy few features that you would think would make the best version for Protracker.
For example, I always thought that Fruity loops would be the best upgrade to protracker. they have the same philosophy and I bet anyone that almost all editing features in Protracker can be done over Fruity Loops with Mouse point, click and tweak.
The next generation trackers for Amiga (although actually existing in PC/Mac) is Object Oriented editing. Gui based editing where parameters are knobs and triggers are buttons and list of commands are dialog boxes.
Since I was using Octamed, I thought it would be nice having 2 modes:
- Pattern mode: edit singular patterns or pages (32/64/128 or any lenth of lines).
Ref:
- Song Mode: (what I would love to see) paint and drag patterns over a timeline, like on Acid Pro.
Also it's nice to have VST and VSTi plugins support.
for song import/export you could make an expandible design concept where anyone can contribute and make a native song format loader (.mid, .flp, .xm, .mod, .med...etc)
for that to work you need to design a virtual system that can support any capabilities related to a song format. (e.g: unlimited instruments, unlimited tracks, 24 bits output, sound blaster dsp support, mp3 decoding and DirectToDisk based instruments.
some visual design:
(http://maroctour.com/tracker.jpg)
-
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO!
DO NOT TURN IT INTO FRUITYLOOPS.
I want a tracker interface. Not all of us have MIDI keyboards you know, and fruityloops method of inputting patterns is totally horrible without one.
-
I agree (in part) with Tickly, don't turn it into Fruity.
Keep the pattern interface the way it is, or else it won't be a tracker anymore, besides I can't stand Fruityloops's (and other newer apps) way of putting everything on buttons. I know it's done to mimic real hardware sequencers and drum machines, but let's not forget that this is software, there *are* better ways than buttons, besides, point and click interfaces can only go so far as far as productivity is concerned, once you're in a routine point and click is simply too slow (and a hassle). Even though I'm currently a Reason user, I *never* use the buttons on the drum machine because it's limited what you can do with it compared to a full sequencer and (as I said before) a hassle to use.
The usual tracker interface would be ideal for me, though with the ability to colour some rows in a different colour so you don't get lost in the rows and columns.
I do agree, however, that a more easily managed 'song mode' as Simo calls it would be a good idea. That's where I usually get lost when using trackers once the song gets too big with too many parts (or patterns or whatever you call them).
-
Tickly wrote:
NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO!
DO NOT TURN IT INTO FRUITYLOOPS.
I want a tracker interface. Not all of us have MIDI keyboards you know, and fruityloops method of inputting patterns is totally horrible without one.
I'm not saying that he should turn it into Fruity Loops, I'm just trying to illustrate few concepts.
Line based editing (old-fashion trackers) is good but I prefer the new interactive way.
For instance, instead of typing 4 similar notes with different velocities to simulate an echo, I would prefer to tweak knobs avoiding the need to manually change the velocity value for each note!
Protracker has a very good engine, it's just the interaction with the user that needs enhancements.
In my own experience, I never thought any of these modern GUI based apps would replace my OctaMed, but, with time it appeared that I can do better things with these gadgets and faster. I no more have to remember the Hex code for volume, or for chorus,
and I'm no more limited to one parameter per note.
Finally, I just exposing few concepts that some may interest the developer (not all). You're to do the same and he's the one to make the last decision.
btw: (Tickly) you don't need to have a MIDI keyboard to use Fruity Loops. You can turn your pc keyboard to trigger sounds with a feature included in the application :)
-
Yeah, good luck and thanks Ruben :)
(BTW thanks for bringing Immortal :)
Of course, it'll support any amiga compatible
OS through rtg / ahi.
But why do people always only mention AOS 4 ?
MOS is as amiga-ish as OS 4 and at least as
real ;) And both have the same aim : PPC native
amigaOS, that'll then extend into something else.
(OS 5 ADE, MOS QBOX)
Anyway, great thing, we really need such a piece
of software :)
-
> But why do people always only mention AOS 4 ?
> MOS is as amiga-ish as OS 4 and at least as
Damn, you just had to ask, didnt you? ;-) Well, okay, I'll answer why I didn't mention MOS: While it might be almost as "Amiga-ish" as AmigaOS, it is significantly less "Amiga" than AmigaOS. I might have had an interest in it because of its compatibility with old Amiga software, if it wasn't for the fact that there is a real continuation of AmigaOS in the pipeline. As things stand today, however, it is more or less irrelevant to me. Thus I don't advocate it any more than I advocate Linux, Windows, QNX, BeOS, MacOS, or any other OS. I leave that to the people who care about it (like you).
Kay
-
I understand and respect your point.
However, I really think it's more a "name" issue.
B/C morphOS is a clean rewrite of the AmigaOS
and designed to be more in the long term, it should
be considered as amiga-ish as amiga OS4. And has
nothing to do with alien OS'es like linux etc.
I fear this b/c imagine that OS 4 turns out to be
crap, or is released in a long time (which I hope
won't be true, it's just an hypothetic situation),
because it's not Amiga(c) OS, you wouldn't consider
it as a new amiga OS ?
(amiga, not the brand but the community, spirit,
legacy, etc...)
?
Actually, what I fear the most is that on amiga.org,
most people seem to totally forget MorphOS for
OS 4. I think it's not normal.
-
> However, I really think it's more a "name" issue.
To some extent, that is correct. I believe that having the trademark will give AmigaOS an advantage in terms of expanding the market. "MorphOS" means nothing to people outside the current community, whilst "AmigaOS" does. So while the products may have similar features, I believe AmigaOS to have more potential. Since they are to some extent competing for the same market, supporting the one with the greatest chance of survival makes sense (to me, at least). Other advantages in this respect is the fact that AInc has more than one leg to stand on. AFAIK, BPlan has the Pegasos and MOS. Their survival will most likely depend on these two (closely related) products. AInc has the DE, and has recently landed a deal with MS. Additionally, even if AInc should go out of business, Hyperion would be able to develop AmigaOS4.x.
Another reason why I support AmigaOS4, is that I have considerable faith and sympathy for the people behind it. Hyperion has delivered top-notch products in recent years (thus the faith), and has done so while subsidising their Amiga development with earnings made in other markets (thus the sympathy). Additionally, there are AFAICR a lot of other well-respected Amiga developers contributing.
> because it's not Amiga(c) OS, you wouldn't consider
> it as a new amiga OS ?
Not as long as there is an official effort which I have faith in, no.
Anyway, I wish MOS all the best for the future. If I have judged wrong and MOS turns out to be a resounding success while AmigaOS flops completely, I might very well come over. But as of now, I don't think that is the more likely course of events.
Hope I haven't offended anyone too much...;-)
Kay
-
But why do people always only mention AOS 4 ?
MOS is as amiga-ish as OS 4 and at least as
real ;) And both have the same aim : PPC native
amigaOS, that'll then extend into something else.
(OS 5 ADE, MOS QBOX)
The reason I say "and maybe an OS4 specific version?", or "I hope it works on OS4", is simply because I intend to buy OS4. Its not an anti-morphos thing, and its no more complicated than that.
-
@Simoami
Glad you droped in, I'd eventually get in touch with you to create the default skin for PT5, since I really love your GUI design stuff. I hope you'd be interested :-)
As for your suggestion, I have to say I don't agree with such a radical change in the concept. PT5 is a tracker and should remain faithfull to the concept of it's predecessors. Specifically, it's way of pattern editing is crucial. That really is what defines the "tracker" class. Changing that will lead to something else, which for sure has it's followers as well, but it wouldn't be a tracker.
However, I agree that the user shouldn't be forced to know all those hex commands by heart. So, a good idea maybe would be to have this implemented by allowing the user to press the RMB over the command slot, a menu pops up where the command is selected and then a small window pops up for parameter changing via some button/meter.
-
@ buzz
I'd like to have a webpage setup before I start spreading the news.
Still, feedback from you guys here has been great and I'll try to implement as much as possible. I plan to "release soon and often", so that you can see the progress.
-
Kay, I understand you. It's nice to see open
minded people and to be up to discuss things
in a polite manner.
It's very funny when you see the difference
between countries : USA / UK : mostly pro OS4;
FR / GER : mostly pro MOS. Not so surprising actually :)
I mostly disagree with you on one thing : when you
say Amiga Inc is much more reliable than Thendic.
(I mean, secure, regarding their financial capacity etc).
When there's an amiga expo, thendic now brings
50 pegasos, with high quality flat screens, superb
towers etc, pay the tickets for everyone etc.
Thendic also have other security related activites.
I really think they have money. And they have long
term projects.
Oops, sorry for the off topic Ruben :)
GOOD LUCK !!
- mahen
-
> Kay, I understand you. It's nice to see open
> minded people and to be up to discuss things
> in a polite manner.
I'll second that sentiment. Somehow, I had expected this to have turned into a full-scale flamewar by now. :-)
> When there's an amiga expo, thendic now brings
> 50 pegasos, with high quality flat screens, superb
> towers etc, pay the tickets for everyone etc.
> Thendic also have other security related activites.
> I really think they have money. And they have long
> term projects.
Ah, good point. Yes, their show presence has been impressive. And now that you mention it, I think I heard something about them having something to do with security. Well, I guess that gives both companies a good chance of survival then. I'm still not "switching sides", though, but this gives me greater confidence in MOS' future than I had before.
Anyway, as you've pointed out, we're off-topic. Sorry Ruben!
Kay
-
Yeah, we really pray for Ruben to succeed :)
I think the card the amiga had to play is
"retro style" softs/games, pushed further.
For instance, the new Crossfire 2 game...
- mahen
-
Hi Ruben,
This is great news. The main thing I'd like to see is full midi support.
also, with regards to FruityLoops, it would be nice to have something like this that could be used in conjunction with PT5. We don't really have anything like FL, Reason or Acid on the Amiga and while all of them have their shortcomings, they are still useful programmes in their own right.
-
Hello,
I have a friend used to play live with midi tracker but on fasttracker PeeCee (old 486).
It would be nice to have a small player which can play only the tracks wanted (cut the sound of the track : do not play the note). Of course, midi support is a must.
A devoted player for live act would be very nice.
The maximum footprint would be :
A1200
4Mb ram
20Mb disk
Midi expansion
This configuration would be easily moveable. (more than Peecee.)
The format readable by a such player must be scalable and open. (ie : at least most common format. converter exists).
See you!
-
Anyway, as you've pointed out, we're off-topic. Sorry Ruben!
No problem :-) I find it very interesting as well.
In fact, while we're at it, I have a couple of reasons to believe AmigaOS has more chances of succeeding than MorphOS:
1. Name recognition: 10 years ago the Amiga was ruling computerland as the ultimate dream machine. And while 10 yrs may seem a lot in computing, it's not that much in people's minds, and the name is still well remembered. Just mention "Amiga" outside our circle and you'll see people babbling about Sensible Soccer or how cool it was to make fun of PC users with our kick-ass platform! :-D
It's a significant head-start for Amiga
2. DE and the hardware agnostic plan: If this is well done, it can bring a huge market opportunity for Amiga, because we're not only talking about the desktop anymore, but targeting a variety of devices that collectively make a vast market. This has the potential to attract lots of fresh users/developers into the community.
Wether you like or not, the next Amiga is what it's owners decide it will be, because they're the only ones in the world who have the legal right to do it.
MorphOS and AROS are, like Windows or Linux, other operating systems. The fact they feel like AmigaOS makes them more interesting to me than other OS's out there, but that's all there is to it.
-
First of all. The ProTracker interface is NOT BAD. It's not the worst thing of it. Maybe the best, this is why it has been more or less replicated in programs such as FastTracker II. You can do almost everything with the keyboard. Besides, everything is at a click of distance, because it doesn't follow modern GUI design patterns. Please check www.renoise.com. This is what the evolution of a tracker should be. The OCTAMED workbench-based interface: NO. ProTracker feels rock solid, like hardware, this is why it was so successful.