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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / Science and Technology => Topic started by: JaXanim on January 07, 2007, 11:58:36 AM
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I never saw a UFO or anything inexplicable, so I have no reason to believe that UFOs exist. We've all seen those shaky out of focus camcordings purporting to be something out of this world and none are in the least convincing. Anyway, scanning a few UFO videos on Google.com, I saw one which quite amazed me (several actually including this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-93485617365460579&q=ufo+wtc)) and I wondered if anyone has a conviction that UFOs/ETs actually do visit us? Before jumping in with your logical answer, watch this first. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=243421874735533678&q=ufo)
Sorry if this is old hat, but UFOs are not top of my agenda.
JaX
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Well, as the U stands for "unidentified", until you know exactly what you are looking at sailing on overhead, you have seen them :-)
If you think how long it takes from the design phase, to the prototype phase to the production phase of any modern aircraft, military applications of which aren't generally open to public scrutiny, you can imagine that people living within the flight range of any airforce base may see things easily attributed to aliens.
Can you imagine what the first civilian sightings of the F117 must have been like? :-D
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Agreed, but watch the video first.
Cheers, JaX
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Ah, the WTC UFO. Hasn't that been confirmed as a hoax (http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=15207) a while ago? As in 'a commercial for a TV-channel'? The effects are pretty cool, but there's no buffeting of the helicopter as the UFO nearly collides with it (there should be substantial air movement!), and the cameraman seems to have no trouble whatsoever to keep track of the very fast-moving UFO. And the Disclosure Project has been classified as 'Crankier' by crank dot net (http://www.crank.net).
There might be genuine aliens out there who take an interest in our doings, but truth be told, if said aliens possess the technology to cross the vast interstellar distances to reach us, why bother with this planet? We're still stuck in a social stone age despite having developed democracy, but when it comes to acting responsibly, many put their own interests squarely before those of others. This is not some sneer directed at the US, as it applies equally to the EU, Russia, and practically anyone else save for some forgotten tribes in the jungle of Brazil or Papua-New Guinea.
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@Cymric
Ok, the WTC UFU video was a commercial setup, thanks for the link. I haven't bothered reading Crank.com's perspective on the Disclosure Project. Just browsing their various snippets gives me the impression that they're not the best people to believe. The question of motive for alien visitation is also a good one. Carl Sagan's persusion that targetting Earth was infinitesimally improbable is beautiful in its simplicity (see 'Cosmos' - I forget which chapter/episode). Interestingly, Sagan was also part of the US Government's expert panel for debunking the UFO myth in the 60s (I think it was). All this I've picked up in the last couple of days.
However, the main video regarding the Disclosure Project itself is something different. So I ask my question again....
Are ALL these people crazy?
Cheers, JaX
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JaXanim wrote:
So I ask my question again....
Are ALL these people crazy?
Cheers, JaX
If they won't contact you, contact us! (http://www.alienabductions.com/)
Alien Abduction Survey (http://www.abduct.com/survey.php)
A large-scale invasion by gangs of alien cosmic rapists who kidnap people to stick painful needles in the brain or the leg, and just about everyone gets a lecture about pollution or global consciousness before being released. (http://www.around.com/abduct.html)
:-P
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JaXanim wrote:
However, the main video regarding the Disclosure Project itself is something different. So I ask my question again.... Are ALL these people crazy?
'Crazy' is a relative term. If shutting down rational thought to entertain a specific conviction which is felt to be true despite all evidence pointing in the other direction is 'crazy', then yes, they are. Hundreds of millions of people are, in fact---take a look at religious beliefs---although they will object most strongly to such a qualification. To my knowledge it is not known why people do this to themselves: there's a certain safety in belonging to a group of course, and even more so if your group is a little odd and therefore quick to be noticed by 'predators'. Also, I doubt that many of the listeners of that conference have such strong convictions as the speakers themselves: there's a good bit of 'walking along for the fun of it' associated with it, too.
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It's not crazy to label something as unidentified. Not at all.
I've seen a flying object which had capabilities beyond human engineering feats. The type of behaviour was also not like anything I would expect of any human agency.
For details, you can see this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22308). Other people on this site have also experienced inexplicable sightings.
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I am loathe to accept that ET has the technology to send a vehicle across light years of space and/or from another dimension, which are capable of incredible acceleration and manoeuvering but seemingly unable to conceal themselves from random people, unless of course we're dealing with the "Burberry clad intergalactic boy-racers" of my previous post.
I might entertain the possibility that our governments are keeping information on such vehicles classified for many reasons - after all, they kept the existence of F117 stealth Fighters secret from the public for a decade.
I am more open to the possibility that our governments (by that I mean the USA, Russia, China and Europe) are testing high performance vehicles which are classified. Remember the SR-71? Take a moment to consider it was designed FIFTY years ago and remained secret for a decade.
Stories from people who have nothing to gain and everything to lose deserve further consideration (ie, Capt Mantell, who lost his life in 1947 when attempting to intercept a UFO), not to mention the reported cases of radiation burns on people who have observed unfamiliar craft at close range. However, I remain open minded...
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i have seen many things i couldn't explain like a triangle of lights passing over me at low speed with no sound. but i am not going to jump out and say it is aliens. instead i just didn't know what it was.
anyway people also have a tendancy of making up stories to make themselves feel better. as such we try to define what we don't know. the saying that ufo=aliens is one such definition. we might be scared of aliens we are even more scared of the unknown so we pick the lesser of two evils.
now as to the idea of whether aliens exist or not all i have to say is if there is no other life in the galaxy there is a lot of wasted space. :-)
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Cymric wrote:
There might be genuine aliens out there who take an interest in our doings, but truth be told, if said aliens possess the technology to cross the vast interstellar distances to reach us, why bother with this planet? We're still stuck in a social stone age despite having developed democracy, but when it comes to acting responsibly, many put their own interests squarely before those of others.
Maybe that's why we're so interesting to them :-)
--
moto
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@all
I haven't speculated on UFOs or ETs, just asked people to watch the video before answering my question.
Has everyone watched the video? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=243421874735533678&q=ufo)
Remember, some of these individuals were responsible for issuing launch codes for America's nuclear weapons. Some had their finger actually on the launch button. These people aren't your 'average' witness.
Are these people (and another 380 like them) 'crazy'? Are the objectives set down those of crazy people? You cannot answer the questions without watching the video.
Cheers, JaX
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I heard Bill Gates is an Alien. :lol:
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Has everyone watched the video? (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=243421874735533678&q=ufo)
No, because it's a 2 hour film on a topic which doesn't really interest me. I asked for a short overview or summary, or a pointer to the important bits.
Are these people (and another 380 like them) 'crazy'? Are the objectives set down those of crazy people? You cannot answer the questions without watching the video.
Not to put a too fine point on it, but several people in the current US administration saw fit to begin a war on grounds which were later shown to be intentional wishful thinking. A Nobel prize winner has stooped to opening a bogus fertility clinic, duping parents, and using his own semen to offspring about 30 to 40 different children. Stalin and Pol Pot were raving madmen responsible for the death of millions of people. Do you want me to provide more examples where being in a place of great power and mental sanity do not coincide?
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no i haven't but i have seen so many videos in the past that the subject is becoming a bit repetitive. besides i can't watch it at work.
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@jkirk
The video is nearly two hours long and is basically a US National Press Club public meeting in Washington DC. The aim is to introduce the 'Disclosure Project'. There are no UFO/ET videos, only the statements of several ex. high ranking Army/CIA/Gov/Scientific people as to why they believe in the Project's aims and that they wish to meet with the US Senate under oath to provide evidence. The basic objective, amongst others, in all this is the de-weaponisation of space. That to me is worth their efforts.
Unless people watch the video, there's little point in trying to answer the question. It's a new perspective (to me anyway) on the 'UFO Issue'. I'm not seeking a discussion on UFOs, just your opimion on the people in the video. Are they crazy?
Cheers, JaX
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There is no empirical evidence to suggest that there are sentient lifeforms other than humans in the universe.
There is none to suggest the inverse either.
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CannonFodder wrote:
There is no empirical evidence to suggest that there are sentient lifeforms other than humans in the universe.
There is none to suggest the inverse either.
The total lack of any artificial radio signals so far is dissapointing, though we've not been listening long.
Finding life elsewhere in the solar system even if only the most primitive imaginable, provided it can be demonstrated it is not terrestrial contamination, the likelyhood of life existing elsewhere in the universe increases significantly.
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@JaXanim
i will try to give it a looksee when i get home. things get so crazy there i can't guarantee that tho.
@Karlos
slight diversion
did nasa kill life on mars. (http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/01/07/mars.life.ap/index.html)
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@Karlos
Even the old Drake Equation (http://www.physicspost.com/articles.php?articleId=158) of the 60s puts the statistical likelyhood of other life in the Universe at quite highly probable.
Recent modifications, taking into account new discoveries and especially the large number of identified exoplanets, would indicate the statistical probability is 100%.
None of that is relevant to UFOs/ETs, but it's interesting.
JaX
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@JaX
Actually, there is a flipside argument also that leads to the exact opposite conclusion :-D
Have a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis) for an overview of the "Rare Earth" hypothesis.
It takes the same basic pretext as the Drake equation, but adds a lot more parameters. As with any calculation based on factor multiplication, the probability falls off pretty quick.
I'm not saying which one I go for; each argument has its merits and weaknesses.
Either way, finding life elsewhere in our own "back yard" dramatically helps the case for life elsewhere in the universe.
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Cymric wrote:
No, because it's a 2 hour film on a topic which doesn't really interest me. I asked for a short overview or summary, or a pointer to the important bits.
I assume you think it's about UFOs (which don't interest you). The underlying issue is far more sinister and will interest anyone who dislikes the way Americans are governed.
Anyway, there's a 40 minute overview of the subject here (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1761049490633046254&q=disclosure+project&hl=en).
JaX
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@Karlos
Yes, you can prove almost anything using mathematics/statistics.
Going back to your earlier point about the lack of radio signals, I agree, the apparent failure of SETI and its like to detect even the smallest evidence makes the ET issue a bit of a damp squib. However, I wonder if part of this failure is down to the control wielded by the 'black project' management that runs the American Government. I believe one or two of the witnesses in the Disclosure Project (ref. the video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=243421874735533678&q=ufo)) were associated with SETI and such and are telling different accounts to the ones we all hear about.
Apparently, the live broadcast (webcam) of this meeting attracted such worldwide interest it recorded the largest audience for such in the history of the Internet.
JaX
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@JaX
Fundamentally, the problem with both models is that nobody knows all of the contributary factors. Of those they do know of, or can guess at, there simply isn't enough information to make a reliable estimate, so it comes down to conjecture.
So far, the only model of life we have is terrestrial and the only place we know it exists is right here on Earth, which depending on which factors you take into consideration is either a quite probable planetary configuration all the way down to an almost unique one.
Therefore, finding life elsewhere in the solar system alone would make a huge difference to our baseline knowledge about the prospects of finding life anywhere else. The spectrum of environments in the solar system is probably far better represented in the local universe we know about than just our wee green belt bit.
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Karlos wrote:
@JaX
Actually, there is a flipside argument also that leads to the exact opposite conclusion :-D
Have a look here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis) for an overview of the "Rare Earth" hypothesis.
It takes the same basic pretext as the Drake equation, but adds a lot more parameters. As with any calculation based on factor multiplication, the probability falls off pretty quick.
I'm not saying which one I go for; each argument has its merits and weaknesses.
As a Muslim shouldn't you believe that there are other worlds? Afterall, Allah is the Rabbil alameen isn't he? ;-)
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@CannonFodder
I do believe there are other worlds. I can count at least 7 more and god knows how many minor ones within our Sun's heliopause alone.
I just don't know how many are teeming with life.
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Karlos wrote:
@CannonFodder
I do believe there are other worlds. I can count at least 7 more and god knows how many minor ones within our Sun's heliopause alone.
So "Lord of all the worlds" means just of the planets, and not of inhabited planets?
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Getting OT:
CannonFodder wrote:
Karlos wrote:
@CannonFodder
I do believe there are other worlds. I can count at least 7 more and god knows how many minor ones within our Sun's heliopause alone.
So "Lord of all the worlds" means just of the planets, and not of inhabited planets?
What are you saying he isn't equally lord of all the uninhabited ones? :-P
In that case, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are mine. I'll make a fortune when we mine them for volatiles in a few centuries :-D
As far as I know, "alameen" is more encompasing than just "worlds" anyway. It encompasesses the totality of all that exists.
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@all
Anyone watched the video yet?
Are all these people crazy?
Cheers, JaX
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I watched the video, but my impression is that they have a stronger case for identifying secret man-made vehicles than for identifying alien craft.
Having said that, I have seen an airborne 'thing' in SA that didn't conform to anything I know about in terms of speed alone.
South Africa is not known for making big advances in the field of military aircraft (helicopters being an exception).
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@X-ray
Agreed. It may well be the case that 'alien' craft/UFOs and various 'Black Projects' are one and the same thing. Worldwide and free application of whatever technology powers such vehicles would seem to be the crux of Disclosure Project's objectives.
What's your impression of the witnesses. All they ALL crazy?
Cheers, JaX
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No, they can't all be crazy.
The difficulty now is to determine what the 'things' were that they saw.
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having just watched the video they have confirmed my thoughts !! and no i dont think they are crazy,dont forget they were in a postion of trust and all would have had to sign the offical secrets act.
so they have a lot to loose,not only there reputation`s.
myself and a few friends back in 1962 witnesed a flying saucer in daylight, and just a few years ago i myself saw something at 2.10am less than a mile away and about 500ft up, flew towards me and stopped still for a few minutes then about 6/8 lights came on and shot off at such a speed like a comet.mmmmmm
(i dont tell lies or make up stories)
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twizzle wrote:
- - - - - and stopped still for a few minutes then about 6/8 lights came on and shot off at such a speed like a comet.mmmmmm
(i dont tell lies or make up stories)
Sounds very much like this event. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8245280541662756781&q=ufo+china&hl=en) Note the lights before it goes.
Cheers, JaX
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Sounds very much like this event. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8245280541662756781&q=ufo+china&hl=en) Note the lights before it goes.
Cheers, JaX
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now that looks very close to what i saw from my kitchen window.
it was more spectacular at night,when it shot off there was a fire trail 1000`s of feet long.
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@twizzle
Another of the CIA's Black Projects eh?
JaX
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JaXanim wrote:
@twizzle
Another of the CIA's Black Projects eh?
JaX
if it is then i cant wait until it is a grey/white project :-)