Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Paradox on December 27, 2006, 04:18:04 PM
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I personly think A.org is miles better than amigaworld.net becuase you can get away with much more and poeple dont ban you all the time.
There isnt an irc chat applet for a.org which could be uasefull though
I would love to chat on Amiga.org irc chat
amiga.org should get irc
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I like both sites and haven't had any trouble with getting banned etc. over on AW.net. A.org has a more classic Amiga focus and can be thought of as looking at the broader Amiga scene. AW.net is geared more toward OS4. Occasionally you get people that insist on trying to redirect the focus of AW.net threads to Aros & Morphos which annoys some people. As Aros users have AROS-Exec, and Morphos users have morphzone, I can understand the irritation.
I visit A.org for stuff like the Minimig and more general Amiga stuff, and AW.net for OS4 stuff.
Hans
P.S. not sure where Amigans.net fits in to the Amiga scene
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Thanks for the kind words Paradox. While we here at AO think we are the best, the truth is that there is room for everyone in the community.
The funny thing is that AW and it's new spinoff came about as a result of people's disapproval of certain things on AO. Ironically, they now find themselves in the same boat that led them to create their own sites. To each their own but remember our community is getting smaller and those of us who are still around need to be a little kinder to each other or the community will shrink that much faster.
Regards,
Ltstanfo
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Yes this is the best site!
you need better link to irc chat though
thankyou
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Paradox wrote:
I personly think A.org is miles better than amigaworld.net becuase you can get away with much more and poeple dont ban you all the time.
You mean it's more troll friendly? I wouldn't bet on it if I was you...
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AmberInc..
all you have to do is fire up WookieChat and Zirc is right there !!
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I enjoy both sites.
The people who left AmigaWorld recently cannot stand to find out about or discuss anything outside the narrow world of cheering for OS4.
Since we had OS4 news this week - 3 out of 4 threads on AW.Net have been about OS4.
However these people who left would have rather Amigaworld was tumbleweed for the previous 12 months than discuss MOS/AROS/Genesi etc. They tolerate classic through gritted teeth (I should know! - RomanceClip was a VERY enthusiastic classic user) :-D
Remember, amiga.org has had issues with 'leading' community figures - luckily amiga.org and (for the last year or so) amigaworld.net are grown up enough to move on! :-)
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I prefer it over here... but still do peek over aw quite often.
Both good, informative sites imho.
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cool thankyou
im in now :-)
no i meant amiga.org is the best and first place i go always.
AMIGA.ORG RULEZ :afro:
yeah it sound right that the poeple who made AW.net were banned from here becuase they very annoying and ban people etc..
aw.net is not a true amigans website if a fellow amigan cant put across his views without harrasment or flamewars or even a ban!
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So is Sister Rita
and some of us amigans.net peeps actually got suspended from AW too !!
Lets try not to stir the sh1t between sites eh RomanceClip.
Amber Inc knows it causes flamefests !!
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I personly think A.org is miles better than amigaworld.net becuase you can get away with much more and poeple dont ban you all the time.
If you don't troll so much, there 's a much lower probability of banning on any site ;-)
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As with most other posters so far, I use both - although I visit A.org much more often, and post here more often - simply because people here know about the OS I use - OS3.9 .
If I had an Amigaone I would probably spend some more time over at AW.net, as the expertise in that OS is more concentrated over there (imho), however I don't own one.
Once I start using MOS more I'll probably spend a bit more time over at morphzone too.
I feel more at home in A.org, I don't know the etiquette, the history, the idiosyncracies of the people over at AW.net anywhere near as much.
Also, I find the interface and colour scheme of A.org more pleasing on the eyes - considering the amount of time I spend here that's an important factor.
Consider - go round to someone's house and start criticising them/their interests and they are likely to throw you out, or at least not invite you back. Same thing.
Also - try reading a few threads >40 posts over at aw.net and realise why people there are so pi55ed off by the same issues/criticisms/insults/comparisons - their site really does (and I am not blaming anyone here) seem to be quite plagued by flame fests, caused generally by (real or perceived) baiting, trolling, dragging up the past. It makes it really difficult to read any of the threads, and frankly if it was happening here as much I'd be a lot less inclined to spend time here. I sometimes think maybe there should be a "reply with an invitation to IRC to argue about it" button on AW.net.
This is not meant as any criticism of anyone, merely a comment on the state of affairs.
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.Org is the best, cos I have got soooo much help here already...!
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@Paradox
"aw.net is not a true amigans website if a fellow amigan cant put across his views without harrasment or flamewars or even a ban!"
So basically what your saying is aw.net wont tolerate trolling but you believe it's some how more acceptable or atleast a blind eye is turned here.
Well if that's the case then aw.net must be recently doing something right.
Amiga.org is the best classic resource site for me, aw.net is one of the better sources for OS4 related news, slightly tainted tho by the few trouble makers that hang about there.
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Lets try not to stir the sh1t between sites eh RomanceClip.
O.K. I should have added the caveat IMHO - but this illustrates what I meant.
I was criticising people for leaving Amigaworld.Net to form Amigans.net and their reasons for doing it. I am entitled to do this on some sites but not others. If you disagree with me then that's fine! How is that stirring sh1t? :-)
There is a thread, currently on Amigaworld;
"OS4 or MOS, that is the question... "
Let me know when you are allowed to discuss such issues over at Amigans and I will take the site slightly more seriously.
btw - If the community was 5x bigger I would say Good luck to the Amigans - but as it stands I hope it withers and people come back to Amigaworld and Amiga.org. :-)
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I generally only visit aw.net if directed there by a link in a news story here or on ann (although ann is pretty much dead itself since registration became compulsory).
I disliked aw.net for claiming to be an Amiga community site while discriminating against the large sections of the Amiga community who are MOS or AROS users. I have no such problem with amigans.net, since they make no claim to cater for the Amiga community, but only for OS4 users, and they state this in their terms which is fine by me and I wish them luck.
From what I understand, aw.net has improved dramatically since the departure of certain moderators but I still have no great desire to become a regular visitor there. In the old days it was impossible to have a discussion on the merits of the respective alternatives because as soon as you mentioned anything such as MOS's faster 68k JIT or suggesting that perhaps the Pegasos II was a better piece of hardware than the AmigaOne you'd have a dozen abuse reports and a torrent of abuse calling for you to be burned as a heretic. This led to a higher level of technical naivete because it is impossible to have a discussion of the technical merits of one system without reference to others.
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Akiko wrote:
@Paradox
"aw.net is not a true amigans website if a fellow amigan cant put across his views without harrasment or flamewars or even a ban!"
So basically what your saying is aw.net wont tolerate trolling but you believe it's some how more acceptable or atleast a blind eye is turned here.
He said 'put across his views'. He never mentioned trolling. You seem to have the classic aw.net mentality that anyone putting across his views is trolling if those views don't happen to be the same as your own. It's just this kind of mentality which made aw.net a laughing stock.
A troll is someone who writes something provocative which he doesn't necessarily believe purely to provoke a strong reaction in others for his own entertainment.
A person who has a different opinion than your own is not a troll, he's just another human being who doesn't agree with you.
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Colin_Camper wrote:
btw - If the community was 5x bigger I would say Good luck to the Amigans - but as it stands I hope it withers and people come back to Amigaworld and Amiga.org. :-)
I think people are loosing sight of the real issue here. We as a community cannot afford any "wither" in our group. The community is already so small I am amazed that spin-offs continue to occur. What we need to do (IMO) is to learn to get along. IF you want a Red only or Blue only or OS4 only site, that is fine but don't beat someone else up (or ban) for not agreeing with you 100%. Now, if they are trolling or deliberatly baiting, let a moderator know... don't play their game. All websites have posted rules and if they are broken, let the moderators handle it. Every time there is a spin-off, the community as a whole is diminished.
Regards,
Ltstanfo
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@Paradox
In my opinion amigaworld.net made the right decision in kicking you out.
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Unfortunately here (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21670&forum=2) is a classic example of how a couple of AW.net posters can ruin any discussion in the forums.
Admittedly the OP could be trying to stir things up - or could have a reputation for doing so - but the discussion could easily have taken place in a mature and RESPECTFUL manner.
What this community often lacks imho is
1) tolerance and
2) respect for the other persons point of view
and
3) sufficient maturity to not rise to the (real or perceived) bait.
A simple fact is that if people visit sites only to troll they will get bored by no response.
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lol @ Piru
chill out m8
that not very nice
:boohoo:
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respect for fellow amigans
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[19:31] <^Paradox> ill knock them all out#
[19:31] <^Paradox> serious
[19:31] <Robert17> Paradox - no need for that
[19:32] <^Paradox> trust me
[19:32] <^Paradox> im going to spark on of them out
[19:32] <ED-209> they do tend to freeze you out a bit it must be said
[19:32] <^Paradox> haha
[19:32] <zerohero> and whom exactly are "they"
[19:32] <zerohero> aw.net staff or what?
[19:32] <Robert17> hehe well, just don't go on AW....
[19:32] <^Paradox> all of them the muppett think there hard with a computer infront of them there nothing
[19:32] <^Paradox> i batter them all
[19:33] <Robert17> oh dear.
[19:33] <^Paradox> haha
[19:33] <Robert17> it's only a hobby mate calm down :p
[19:33] * ED-209 warns #AW of the coming invasion
[19:33] <^Paradox> it not its {bleep}ing annoying
[19:33] <^Paradox> im goin to get em in some way
[19:33] <Robert17> lol maybe it's time you found a less tedious hobby ?
[19:33] <^Paradox> cant wait for BB4 or 5 whatever
[19:33] <Robert17> BB4 has been and gone
[19:34] <^Paradox> im ging to knock one of them out on video
[19:34] <^Paradox> ive not been doen for that b4
[19:34] <^Paradox> and put it on the internet
[19:34] <^Paradox> on youtube
[19:34] <Robert17> Paradox - Someone on Amigaworld gave me a lot of help with my AmigaONE when I first got it
[19:34] <^Paradox> yeah
[19:34] <Robert17> was very patient too
[19:34] <^Paradox> probaly wanted to shag you
That wasn't very nice either. While aw.net isn't perfect, nothing justifies that kind of c**p.
"respect for fellow amigans"
That's a bit thick coming from you.
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piru you are very nasty boy
i can see it in your avatar
please stop im having a nervous breakdown
give a light quick I need weed
get him out of here.
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AW.SUXX
you know it I know it so face it
even though we dont see eye to eye doesnt meen we cant agree on something once in a while like ermm...................amiga rulez
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No wonder why you got kicked with that kind of attitude. My personal feeling is that you wont be around here for much longer either..
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@ Colin_Camper
indeed you are entitled to your own opinion. I completely respect that. :-)
My comment was meant to warn peeps who a certain person actually was and what his intentions here likely were for.
Looking at piru's IRC capture log you can ascertain your own judgement.
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@Piru
Very informative, thankyou.
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It should also be stated that Red and Blue amigans mix very well at Big Bash events.
You behaved yourself at BB3 Amber Inc and even sold hardware.
IF you decide to attend any further BB events we would expect the same level of professionalism you displayed at bb3.
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cool.
just to let you know im never going to go away so your stuck with me wether you like it or not.
Im not a {bleep} im just honest and people dont like it.
i will try to behave a bit more chilled in the future the was just my grand opening rofl
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@Paradox
You are right on the threshold of breaking the TOS of this site in several areas. Actually you have broken them in at least one post, probably more. I ask you kindly read the Posting Guidlines (http://www.amiga.org/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=6).
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@Paradox
Im not a {bleep} im just honest and people dont like it.
I think opionated would be a word to use there.
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@Lando
Lando wrote:
I disliked aw.net for claiming to be an Amiga community site while discriminating against the large sections of the Amiga community who are MOS or AROS users. I have no such problem with amigans.net, since they make no claim to cater for the Amiga community, but only for OS4 users, and they state this in their terms which is fine by me and I wish them luck.
Really? I was always under the impression that AW.net was an OS4-centric site that was ok with sideline discussions of other Amiga OSes and even general computing stuff. In that context, anyone that continually posts "OS4 sucks, #OS is better" (replace # with OS of choice) just get annoying.
Hans
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@Lando
"He said 'put across his views'. He never mentioned trolling"
Hehe.. I'm not saying everyone who has a different opinion to mine is a troll in fact quite the contrary! If you don't believe Paradox is a troll then thats your prerogative however if you asked him yourself I have a feeling he would probably admit to it! lol..
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My view is this...
1) Both sites serve their audiences well, and hopefully we do a decent job of representing our audience, just like Davey does.
2) Each site is a small community on it's own. I'm a little unclear as to why the community needed to be split, but in context of the time in which it happened, I have no problems with Amigaworld.net. I just don't have time to hang out there, keep this site going, keep my job, and everything else during the normal day.
3) This thread in and of itself is one of those "slippery slopes" which cannot help itself but get more and more out of control. The very fact that such a thread would be started after years of a comfortable detante is questionable at best.
Let's try to watch ourselves here, and be a bit careful. After all, it's the intolerance of differing opinions which led to (now) three sites where one would have sufficed in the first place.
If it gets out of control, wrists will be slapped, sheep will be sacrificed, and the thread will be closed.
Wayne
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Paradox wrote:
I personly think A.org is miles better than amigaworld.net becuase you can get away with much more and poeple dont ban you all the time.
Grow the f**k up.
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This site is the best IMHO, because it caters to all people who have any kind of vague interest in the Amiga, even people who don't use them anymore and fondly remember what they did in the 80s and early 90s. It has a good mix of people from around the world, and is an extremely friendly place.
The only other site worth visiting is wrongpla.net ;-)
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I personly think A.org is miles better than amigaworld.net becuase you can get away with much more and poeple dont ban you all the time.
You're right! We will not ban you all the time. We will just ban you once and for all.
So listen to Red, read the posting guidlines, and relax.
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@paradox
yeah it sound right that the poeple who made AW.net were banned from here becuase they very annoying and ban people etc..
aw.net is not a true amigans website if a fellow amigan cant put across his views without harrasment or flamewars or even a ban!
There is reasons for all your accounts (a quick look gives at least 3) being banned on aw.net.
And please do tell people yourself about those reasons before accusing aw.net for discrimination and harassment.
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@Wayne
1) Both sites serve their audiences well, and hopefully we do a decent job of representing our audience, just like Davey does.
You do. :pint: :-)
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I will drink to that. :pint: :roflmao:
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I'm very sorry dudes i will be good boy promise
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Hi,
I used to be a regular on both channels. (Some may remember me as KevM) I run classic hardware,and I seriously considered buying an AmigaOne when it was announced, but I couldn't justify spending the money on what would have been (at the time) a Linux box for the forseeable future. Later, other financial considerations took precedent, so I never got an A1, but you can see that I am neither "Red" nor "Blue", just an Amiga fan.
I was never made to feel welcome on aw.net, possibly because of my classic machine, and eventually, I stopped going there. It always seemed to me to be a place where TechHeads went to argue about the minutiae of one chip versus another, sometimes quite heatedly. Ultimately, I didn't find it the most pleasant place to be.
I had lots of good friends on amiga.org, but even there, there were people who couldn't resist the temptation to snipe, ("Powerflyer?, a nasty little hack!") and eventually, I realised that the only way that I could use my Amiga in peace was to leave there too. It's a shame, because now I have virtually no contact with other Amiga users, and I'm not ashamed to say that I miss it, but until I feel that I can simply use my Amiga without having to take sides, I won't be returning to either channel. Sorry.
I'm sure that both channels DO serve their respective communities well, but is it too much to ask that I'm simply allowed to be an Amiga fan?, and without being pilloried for my choice of hardware?
Respect to all.
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@Fraggle1
You seem to be taking the boards to seriously. If you told me my bog standard a3000 with no case and hacked up atx powersupply was lame it wouldn't even phase me or keep me from coming to the site. I just wouldn't care.
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Too many ego's and "experts" on both sites, in my oppinion. To make a nice place to visit.
I think most people just leave or dont bother posting.. Of the 2500+ members on AW, i only ever really see about 50 of them posting.
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neon32 wrote:
f the 2500+ members on AW, i only ever really see about 50 of them posting.
The same could be said of any site I'm afraid.
@everyone,
Once again though, let's stop trying to accentuate the differences here and just accept that when a site is built, those who flock to it develop a good devotion to that particular site.
If you were to flip the coin and post a similar starting post on Amigaworld, do you not think they would both feel and post the opposite as the Amiga.org supporters in this thread.
That's what makes this thread both pointless and -- to be honest -- a bit trollish to begin with.
If you enjoy it here, great! Thank you!. If you enjoy it there, cool as well. Everyone should stop right now and think what good it does to sit and slice open these old and now-totally-irrelevant wounds.
We are who we are. They are who they are, and I would bet that the same exact users are both members and users of both sites, which means that those "50 people" are actually 50 people who use both sites, so there's no real difference at all here.
(I'm tired. goodnight. If a mod sees this going too much more sideways, please lock it for the night, thanks.)
Wayne
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Now we can all see thats there are some factors that need to be addressed.
You have to respect other point of view if you dont agree just tell them politely and offer an alternative.
I must admit I have been a complete idiot sometimes but not that much to hurt someone or make them feel bad.
I think that there are to many moderators quick to ban mainly on IRC.
You know its a joke that some even dont know that software can damage hardware!! :lol: and they persist in telling me otherwise.
Agree totally with wayne and the A.org bunch on this!
Its all about respect
:pissed: :lol:
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It's easier to get banned from freenode than it is to sign into it. Things have been getting better since lilo got run over.
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You have to respect other point of view if you dont agree gust tell them politely and offer an alternative.
Respect online is a good thing (used to be called Netiquette). However I think some moderators are too quick to censor if they don't agree with you on something.
I got in trouble at said site for suggesting something to the effect that "ANYONE" if they thought the AmigaOne would out sell Windows PCs in the next year was living in a fantasy world. Which ended up being a factual statement. Holy Obvious statements Batman!.
Also (defending people in fantasy worlds), many people live in a fantasy world. Mine, at the moment is a game called Fable. My point is the comment wasn't aimed at anyone specifically but they took it as an insult directed at everyone, which wasn't what it wasn't intended at anyone. I was threatened with being removed from the site if I ever brought it up again with another site operator.
The problem is, I am used to sites in the USA that allow for totally free speech and I realize that when I am in a website that is not in the US I am subject to their rules and regulation of the owner of the site. That fact should be mentioned in big text on the page I believe, as their rules and terms of service would be better understood.
I honestly believe in totally free speech though, and if someone wants to be nasty or look that way they should be allowed to say what they want. People aren't stupid and see things for what they are and react accordingly. You don't have to moderate that (with the exception of killing a topic that becomes a flame war).
Differing opinions aren't wrong as long as you aren't slandering someone or maligning someone. Just because you don't agree on a point doesn't make either party wrong, it's opinion after all and isn't that the point of discussion anyway...
While polite etiquette is important, these are international sites and I believe moderation should be as light as possible to allow for free contribution because I think that makes for a better more diverse environment including sometimes a more humorous one.. Everyone has different standards for what's appropriate content.
It's like the story of the "Ugly American" who follows his own rules in another country,and offends everyone. If you come to the USA and follow your own rules we probably would respect them as we are a melting pot of many nations over the years. Airing on the the side of leniency is more diplomatic when dealing with different cultural norms and standards..
You have to be able to be open enough to see the other side of the coin.. I guess it concerns me when a site names itself after a famous USA based Amiga magazine and has different rules that wouldn't fly with people in the USA then maybe they need to make their rules better visibility so expectations of people of that culture are respected as well..
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@DonnyEMU
I hear you man. I agree with your over all point regarding free speech/exchange of ideas but we need to take into consideration that a website is owned by an entity, usually a person, sometimes a company or other org.
Freedom to express your self means you can stand on your own soapbox and say whatever you want, it doesn't mean another person is required to provide you with a soapbox.
What i'm trying to get at is, if you post something to a website that is not yours, you should have no expectation that your contribution will stick.
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Personally, I enjoy both sites. A lot of work goes into them, and it shows.
Of course I can only speak about the threads that interest me here. Of those threads, Amigaworld generally has much quicker responses to news and forum posts for some reason, but a lot of it is quick "great, grand, and thanks a lot" type stuff. AO generally has slower and fewer responses but they seem to be more insightful and more thoroughly organized. AO doesn't have the initial onslaught of the congratulatory-type posts that AW has. There' s nothing wrong with that necessarily, but to me the congratulatory messages should be kept more private.
I love the Amiga and have no real preference of one site over the other, but recently I made the "mistake" of voicing a simple observation about MorphOS hardware as it compares to AmigaOS and its hardware in an AmigaOS-oriented topic on amigaworld and got a tasteless Abuse threat for voicing such a vicious pack of facts. And that's fine. I just find myself somewhat less interested in Amigaworld if such a position of silencing any opposition is to be taken by its most ardent supporters. Silence speaks volumes.
I also wish there weren't quite so many spelling errors, but far be it from me to be the grammar police. It's not that I'm pedantic or anything. It's just easier to find things with search tools when all the nouns and verbs and stuff have been spelled correctly. :-)
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My $0.02 worth; I never post on AWN nor do I have any desire to do so in the future.
Dammy
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@DonnyEMU
While polite etiquette is important, these are international sites and I believe moderation should be as light as possible to allow for free contribution because I think that makes for a better more diverse environment including sometimes a more humorous one.. Everyone has different standards for what's appropriate content.
On the contrary, I believe that International sites needs more moderation.
People have different values, and different backgrounds, a joke for me can be an insult for you, with me totally unaware of that it can be an insult from your point of view.
It is a narrow path between a joke and insult some times.
You mentioned totally free speech.
That is not possible in Europe.
Germany, Turkey and a few other countries here has laws against denying or mentioning some historical events, breaking those laws can lead to prison sentences.
Here in Sweden a site owner was recently sentenced for posts the members of his forum had made, which he did not moderate, and so on.
So basically aw.net can not allow as much "free speech" as Amiga.org can, the server is in France, and thus the French laws apply.
As Wayne wrote:
If you enjoy it here, great! Thank you!. If you enjoy it there, cool as well.
My addon to that is: We can not please you all on one single site, fortunately there still is a few Amiga-sites to choose between ;-)
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My $0.02 worth; I never post on AWN nor do I have any desire to do so in the future.
How about commenting on aw.net threads on moobunny? Do you do that?
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I think the post count says it all ;-)
That said, there is one site where I have a post count of 27901 and it's only been around since 8th March 2005...
As it goes, I don't think these types of threads are particularly helpful. There's nothing wrong with prefering option A to option B, but there's always the danger of things slipping into a slagging match.
FWIW, I have an account on AmigaWorld.net too and though I'm not a frequent visitor, I do enjoy going there as well.
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Hi all,
There is one thing I can recall the most when thinking about my early C 64 days (....and subsequent Amiga Dazze...)
:rtfm: I never, ever managed to do anything with my computer without the direct involvement of other users who had already stumbled over the problems I was just getting to.
In my short time on this site, I have gotten invaluable assistance from fellow Amigans who, so far, have treated me respectfully and kindly, regardless of the simplicity or complexity of the questions posted. Once, I considered myself an Amiga expert...and got payed for being so. Today, in the world of UAE/Amiga Forever, I'm a novice again, and slowly, regaining my foothold in the "new" emulated environments, thanks again, to the direct involvement of other users!
Everything else? ....skip it!
Keep up this great site....all the great sites!!
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A.org Rulez
I will be donating! :-o
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@Piru
We don't really appreciate undercover "cgiirc" action on #amiga.org, it's just not polite towards the actual users there. This bit of log perhaps deserved to be posted but you could at least mention it on the channel aswell.
(If that wasn't you on the channel, sorry, but there was only one anon person on the channel at the time)
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hi,
Just a note to remind people that we in the #amiga.org IRC channel consider it somewhat bad form to publish chunks of log anywhere (even on this site) without permission. We don't want to end up in a situation where everyone feels they have to be careful what they say because someone will paste it all over the forums. We currently have a relaxed, friendly and open atmosphere in the channel where people can say what they want. If anyone crosses the line it's up to the operators to take action. That's the way things are and we don't want that to change.
But this is off-topic. If anyone wants to discuss it further, drop in to #amiga.org on irc.zirc.org. See the "Join Us for Live Chats!" information on the left. ;-)
-zudo
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Back in the days of The big magazines...
I used to buy most of em ...
Amiga User International
Amiga Shopper
Cu Amiga
AmigaPro
Amiga Computing
At nigh on £5 a magazine it wasn't cheap but as I had no internet there was little other option.
I would glean little snippets of information from each different magazine. Not one of them had the monopoly on info.
Same with the Amiga Websites.
Fortunately it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg anymore to get that info. I have met (online) many colourful characters and I can even agree with many of their views.
It's the delivery that sucks. Thats where the moderation should step in.
As Tomazkid rightly pointed out..
Being called a Red Ankle grabber may well be acceptable in the writers country and can even be deemed funny these forums oft get read by minors.
I enjoy all the sites
But when I go on MooBunny I make sure my rugrats aint perving over my shoulder !!
:-)
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Damn, ajk beat me to it. But yeah...
I seem to recall someone posting some IRC log a while back, and even though the content was just light-hearted humour (unlike this unfortunate selection) some of the people quoted didn't appreciate it (...ok, it might just have been me.)
What is said in the channel is for the people present at the time. If you want a piece of the action you have to be there. This being one of it's appeals.
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hahaha.
its ok!
I was just messing about :lol:
But now this is no laughing matter as posted IRC logs on A.org is rude Piru.
Please dont do that in future.
Regards.
-
I'm member off both sites but see my self visiting Amiga.org more often. There are a few reasons for that. The most important being that I do not own, or have acces to, AmigaOS4 enabled hardware. Therfore its near impossible to have a clear and well fundamented opinion on the discussions over there. Overhere it's mostly Classic Amiga, which I like.
Also my feeling is that at AmigaWorld there's a small number of Amiga owners spoiling the fun 'cause they seem to be negative 24/7 about everything released for the Amiga. But then, it won't stop me from visiting AW.
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Why on earth should Piru need promission to post something he saw in a public IRC channel?
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Paradox:
Erm... Yeah.. You're hardly in a position to take the moral high ground, Paradox. And it wasn't my intention to help you get one up on Piru (although that hasn't really happened.) I understand you're probably just be making light of this, but others may not see it that way.
My previous message was not solely for your benefit. I'm not defending your comments (far from it), but rather the right of privacy that all channel members should have. So although you say you don't have a problem with this, it doesn't excuse the fact that it happened. And so long as it doesn't happen again, all is fine and dandy.
If you're going to be sticking around in the channel inviting this sort of thing, the rest of us will suffer as a consequence. And be warned, if that happens, Matron will probably just ban you. But hopefully this is all moot and that won't be required. I hope so.
koaftder:
Because them be the rules. It's not a public channel in that sense. Sure, anyone can join, talk, stick around. It's more like an online social club of some sort. You wouldn't expect a conversation you have with some mates in a pub to be printed in the local paper the following morning. I really don't get the current blogging culture where everyone wants to broadcast their every whim to the world.
Of course if someone wants to paste something, asks and everyone involved says "go ahead" (which more often than not would be the case), that's cool.
Anyway, sorry all for going all off-topic yet again. I just wanted to be sure that's cleared up and my sentiment/side/agenda is understood.
I do have an opinion regarding the topic, btw, and it is this: amiga.org is the daddy.
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If I said something off the wall at the pub with my friends, you better beleive its going to get repeated.
Permission is not needed to quote something from IRC, usenet, this forum, etc.
I understand that by your personal rules this is considered impolite, but also understand that for many (probably most) of us it's completely unecessary.
We are not talking about a private message or email here.
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The attitude is more relaxed in AO, but I've gotten the feeling that AW is a better place for getting help with OS4 and A1.
#AO is much better than #AW, unfortunately I'm not logged in as frequently as I want to.
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koaftder wrote:
If I said something off the wall at the pub with my friends, you better beleive its going to get repeated.
Permission is not needed to quote something from IRC, usenet, this forum, etc.
I understand that by your personal rules this is considered impolite, but also understand that for many (probably most) of us it's completely unecessary.
We are not talking about a private message or email here.
Actually, there's aren't any special rights assigning forums and IRC channels as public places. In both cases you are expected to agree to the T&C when you register/log in.
I don't know if in this case there is such a stated condition that things said in the channel remain confined to the channel, but it's a perfectly reasonable condition if clearly stated.
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@Paradox
Apples and oranges.
End of.
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I have never seen a rule in an IRC channel asking people not to repost stuff in the channel. That would be completely unenforcable and retarded.
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this is my favorite Amiga site, even before I was a moderator.. I was lurking/posting on this site when Wayne was *emailing* Amiga news to folks.. that was cool.. I always looked forward to getting news in email about the Amiga because I didnt get time to visit like I wanted to and just wanted the latest scoop on what was going on in Amiga land.
He (Wayne) has done alot for the Amiga community and I'm glad he's let me be a part of this site.
-Alex
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Unenforceable? One could get ones IP-address banned from an IRC-channel.
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koaftder wrote:
I have never seen a rule in an IRC channel asking people not to repost stuff in the channel.
It may not exist, in which case those in charge of the channel should make sure it does before asking people to comply.
That would be completely unenforcable
It's a question of manners and respect. I suspect that not having either would result in not being welcome on said channel.
and retarded.
Why? Participation on forums and IRC channels isn't something people are entitled to. It's customary to have T&C or a set of rules one has to agree to when registering on a forum and you can ask people to abide by house rules on an IRC channel too. If you don't like those rules don't go there. What you think of the rules and whether they are enforceable or not is irrelevant really.
I'm not defending Paradox here as I think he's been sailing close to the wind on this forum already, regardless of anything he might have said on IRC, but people are entitled to make their own rules and expect you to observe them when visiting their home ground. If you don't like their rules regarding the IRC channel you can always start an alternative one without such rules.
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Since Paradox has no objection to the snippet being pasted here, I doubt any of the other people featured do either, but this is not really the point. We just don't like the sneaky way of joining a channel under a generic nick and not even participating in any conversation, and then pasting stuff on the forums. Simply asking would make a world of difference here. Obviously this can't really be prevented but surely we (meaning the channel operators and at least most regular users) are still allowed to comment on what we see as impolite behaviour?
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I think that if there are rules in a channel and one rule is not to re-post what is said in the channel, then its best to abide by those rules.
But if that irc channel doesnt have any such rule then its fair game.
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No problem man....
Lets talk on IRC now!
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DonnyEMU wrote:
The problem is, I am used to sites in the USA that allow for totally free speech and I realize that when I am in a website that is not in the US I am subject to their rules and regulation of the owner of the site. That fact should be mentioned in big text on the page I believe, as their rules and terms of service would be better understood.
The problem with international sites is that what you and I think is funny can be interpreted as very insulting by someone else. People come from differing cultural backgrounds and perceive things differently. Then there's the cross-country issues. Everyone has a right to be pround of their country, but some people think, for example, that only Americans have that right "because every other country is substandard". This really gets tempers flaring.
BIG NOTE: People from countries other than the USA behave like this too!
Another big one is the "our way is the only right way" attitude, and I've seen that from people from all parts of the world.
I agree with many of your points, but that may be because I come from an ethnically diverse country that celebrates this diversity. I'm used to dealing with people that are different from me. Not everyone is though. I've also found that most people truly believe that they can see the other side of the coin, but that no-one else can see their side.
I'd say that more moderation is required on international sites that national ones because of the more complicated social dynamic involved. Personal freedom is always limited by maintaining public decency and mutual respect. What people think is and isn't acceptable varies from country to country, and even state to state or town to town. It can be difficult to get the balance right when everyone is talking to everyone.
Hans
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I visit Amiga.org and Amigaworld.net each day. I joined Amiga.org on 2002/2/17. In those days, I had an A2000HD and a pc. Like a few other people, I got kind of ticked off over the red vs blue stuff and joined Amigaworld.net in March 2003. However, I didn't abandon Amiga.org and continued to visit here as well. After I purchased my MicroA1, I posted more often on AW because it was the support site for OS4.
Anyways, I think Wayne runs a great site here and I think DaveyD does as well over there.
---
redfox
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I hate to point out the obvious but all this talk of "national" and "international" sites and local laws influencing moderation in any way is just absolute bunkum, certainly in respect to Amiga forums.
And since we're O/T anyway, you chaps over the pond shouldn't believe everything you read you know. Free speech is doing fine in Europe too. The laws which do govern certain subjects cover incitement to attitudes and actions that are contrary to the laws of the countries concerned.
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@bhogget
What I said had nothing to do with local laws. All I said was that less moderation is necessary if everyone on a particular site shares very similar views. People from a single country tend to have more in common than people from other countries. It just means that people are less likely to misunderstand one another or take offence.
It is an issue. I've seen articles/cartoons from one place reprinted in another, causing uproars because it was inappropriate in the new community. That doesn't mean that the new community is repressive and doesn't value freedom. It's just that their views differ significantly.
And since we're O/T anyway, you chaps over the pond shouldn't believe everything you read you know. Free speech is doing fine in Europe too. The laws which do govern certain subjects cover incitement to attitudes and actions that are contrary to the laws of the countries concerned.
No kidding. BTW, I'm not American and laugh just as hard when I hear people from the USA who think that people outside the USA have no freedom. Those that think such things have probably never been outside the USA. I don't think that's what he meant though.
Hans
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@ everyone
From a first-hand perspective, moderation of any kind is difficult if not impossible to do in this "age of political cowardess, erm, I mean correctness".
You guys have no idea how many times a day I get e-mails from people who are offended by someone over what most reasonable people would simply ignore.
While this is off-topic (there is no "AO versus AW", we're not at war), people really have forgotten that they do NOT the inaliable right NOT to be offended.
Likewise, in this "free Internet world", people assume (badly I'm afraid) that they have the right to say whatever they want, then whine and complain when it offends someone. The Internet, in a very big way, is contributing to the delinquency of society as the very kids who were just getting into computers when the Internet came into popularity are now becoming parents themselves.
Trouble is, having not been taught etiquette, debate, and how to responsibly handle free expression, these "kids" who are now becoming parents have no idea how to raise a responsible child.
I sound very old when I say this, but it's nonetheless very true. Society's ability to co-exist with one another is shifting rapidly into chaos, and it's the ability to get online and slag each other off without fear of reprisal which seems to be at the base of it all.
Now bleep off before I bleep every last one of you bleepers..
:laughing:
Wayne
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When i was in highschool the family pooled their money to spring for a dual channel isdn line ( around '94 ). $300 a month, and i worked at taco bell just to have the money to pay my part. We setup a lan at the house, etc.
One day dad pops into my room and says, "Whats all this about making bombs and growing mushrooms?" It was at that moment I realised that the old man was sniffing the ether. My net habits changed after that.
I guess someday I'll be just like the old man....
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@Wayne
Well said.
Hans
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koaftder wrote:
Why on earth should Piru need promission to post something he saw in a public IRC channel?
What gets my goat isn't that someone who sits in a channel pastes something on the affiliated web site, I've pasted stuff from the channel here in the past. It's that someone after not having been on the channel for ages and as such has no real connection with the channel anymore suddenly joins with the specific purpose of gathering dirt on someone only to use it for flaming purposes. I'm not defending Paradox here, frankly he annoys the crap out of me too and isn't far from being banned from the channel if he continues his spamming and pointless crusade against (#)AW.
Just because it doesn't say in a formal document signed by the king, prime minister, president and a notary public that you can not do this and that, doesn't mean you can do what you please without regard to others.
The channel has functioned quite well on the limited rules set forth in the channel FAQ (http://ajk.daug.net/amiga/) and the honour system so far, and as long as people show some common sense and treat people like they treat their friends, everyone can get along and we can continue to stay under the radar and not be involved in the ongoing s..tstorm that is the Amiga community these days.
I guess my point is: We have a cosy little channel without too much trouble. If you want part in that, feel free to join, if not, stay the f..k out or we will throw you out.
-
About the irc-snipper pasted.. are some of you guys serious? :-) Any idea how many (tens of) thousands of lines are cut and pasted back and forth irc and sites weekly? :-)
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I would have to say my favorite website is the now defunct Amiga Web Directory, but Amiga.org is the best Amiga website around, and no fault of anyone here that it doesn't exist in those heady days of AWD...one thing I loved about AWD was the links to all those dealers and companies...things that just don't exist anymore.
When AW.net was founded it was in truth a reaction to the negativity at amiga.org.
The only problem is, that the negativity was entirely warranted...
Still the AW.net folks had a point of their own that was valid, if you feel that way (negative about Amiga), then why be an 'amigan'. At one time, I thought it was to make this scene better, by being less susceptable to the constant scammings of the remaining amiga companies.
But that was one blip in time, when such logic was valid. The truth is, if you aren't a mindless fanboy, then why stick around.... in the end maybe aw.net had a point. There isn't any clever way to stick around and say its for some valid purpose.
In the end, I still like amiga.org the best though. We (well I said 'we' I still have an account, after all)...we are just friends, who share a common experience. Once upon a time we loved the amiga...I'm rather glad the most delusional among us are at another website. But we are only marginally less delusional so I won't judge.
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I sound very old when I say this, but it's nonetheless very true. Society's ability to co-exist with one another is shifting rapidly into chaos, and it's the ability to get online and slag each other off without fear of reprisal which seems to be at the base of it all
Yes, I agree. You do sound very old when you say that. It's pretty much what every older generation says about the next. Just copy and paste.
But I love to argue with you, and why, you were making a point. And you are right, internet is changing society. One way this is obvious is in language trends. Most smaller languages (less than 100,000 speakers) are dying at an incredible pace. Only the largest languages...English, Spanish, Chinese...and about 5 others, I won't name them all, are hanging on. And I attribute this to a smaller world...people don't live in isolation as much, and children tend to adopt the dominate language when given a choice, and English, being the codepage that all our computers have, is the biggest benefactor of technologies progress.
I know this is all boring to us internet users, and quick I better make a joke or flash a picture of a naked woman, because I'm losing the audience with this crap....
but, if someone were to guess the future, a future, with fewer languages, is one of the biggest things to happen to humanity in thousands of years, if you ask me. I know a lot of English speakers, think this trend is great.
But it will be like killing off French in Lousianna (or Hawaiian in Hawaii). It sounded great until after it was successful. Then the legislature went back and adopted acadian as an official language. (and similarly in Hawaii, they set up Hawaiian immerson schools to try to save the language from extinction) Suddenly states realized they had been benefiting from diversity...being a cookie cutter image of every other state does nothing for tourism.
And as a student of language...thinking is different in different languages...different types of thinking can be good for comparison purposes. Still, good or bad, the world is going to march forward and change.
All we can do, is think what we can do, to influence the direction of change, for the better.
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Worst thread EVER!!!!
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So say, imagine that someone said on IRC that he had screwed someone else's and how you shouldn't say it 'cause of netiquette?
If what one copies isn't a lie I don't know why shouldn't one be allowed to copy it, even further when in context...
Just because it doesn't say in a formal document signed by the king, prime minister, president and a notary public that you can not do this and that, doesn't mean you can do what you please without regard to others.
It's simple, when you write it down express that you don't want it quoted, although being in a public channel might not be the best place to do it, it's a question of intelligence after all, if you don't want others to use your words against you you should pick those to whom you say them
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Likewise, in this "free Internet world", people assume (badly I'm afraid) that they have the right to say whatever they want, then whine and complain when it offends someone. The Internet, in a very big way, is contributing to the delinquency of society as the very kids who were just getting into computers when the Internet came into popularity are now becoming parents themselves.
Trouble is, having not been taught etiquette, debate, and how to responsibly handle free expression, these "kids" who are now becoming parents have no idea how to raise a responsible child.
I sound very old when I say this, but it's nonetheless very true. Society's ability to co-exist with one another is shifting rapidly into chaos, and it's the ability to get online and slag each other off without fear of reprisal which seems to be at the base of it all.
(continuing off-topic)
This is good stuff, and I agree with nearly everything you've said, Wayne, but I don't think just the ability to verbally hammer others without reprisal is the cause. I'm sure the real cause runs much deeper and is topic for a different forum. There are still many things that are perfectly legal, yet remain socially unacceptable. We're getting to the point in our society where our governments feel it necessary to instate laws that cover every little corner of life because people just can't straighten up and fly right on their own.
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adz wrote:
Worst thread EVER!!!!
I'm waiting for a reason to lock it, but havn't seen any flamefest yet to justify locking it.
:flame:
-Edit-
I am thinking of moving it to the CH. Moderators opinions? Wayne?
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redrumloa wrote:
adz wrote:
Worst thread EVER!!!!
I'm waiting for a reason to lock it, but havn't seen any flamefest yet to justify locking it.
:flame:
That could be arranged. Say the word and I'll call someone for favouring :lol:
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Karlos wrote:
That could be arranged. Say the word and I'll call someone for favouring :lol:
Seconded, just say the word boss :lol: :lol: :lol:
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by jahc on 2006/12/28 2:31:00by jahc on 2006/12/28 2:31:00
Quote:
My $0.02 worth; I never post on AWN nor do I have any desire to do so in the future.
How about commenting on aw.net threads on moobunny? Do you do that?
Sure do, some of the links on Moo to AWN post are priceless, you can't buy that type of entertainment. That is where it ends. I do not surf AWN, I simply go to post via links to it. AO, OTOH, I read and contribute content. I enjoy AO and it's very unusual that I'm not surfing AO on a daily basis.
Dammy
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dialy ?
No DSL then ?
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You mentioned totally free speech. You mentioned totally free speech.
That is not possible in Europe.
Germany, Turkey and a few other countries here has laws against denying or mentioning some historical events, breaking those laws can lead to prison sentences.
Here in Sweden a site owner was recently sentenced for posts the members of his forum had made, which he did not moderate, and so on.
So basically aw.net can not allow as much "free speech" as Amiga.org can, the server is in France, and thus the French laws apply.
That's really sad to hear. Our history in our country tells us that banning ideas and people's feelings even for ideas we hold to be wrong and not in the interests of the country are still within our free speech amendments.
For instance a few years ago in a local area was subject to a hate group rally. The police didn't stop them from marching due to their rights to free speech even though people in the country hold their beliefs and hatred of specific groups of people to be dangerous. The police ended up coming in to break up violence by other groups when they clashed with them and counter demonstrated.
It was actually pretty cool to be in the general vicinity of all of it happening and to see the ideals of free speech in action. Mostly because we know that even with radical ideas in play, my nation and it's laws still work. Needless to say the group found the free speech protest useless to their cause and hasn't been back to the area..
Maybe people need not be afraid of radical ideas and notions if the laws in their country support a system of governing that really allow for freedom of expression of it's peoples. They should work to change their laws to allow for the free expression of their people's views.
Either way: I can't see how any "Amiga" based discussion however that might really violate the current in place laws.. I would hate to think that this could be used to justify censorship either way.
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What an amazing thread!
all I asked was A.org or Aw.net?
Wayne please can I make sugestions for the site?
please can you remove "The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" from the forum titles?
Please can you add "MorphOS" title and put it underneath AROS then with Amiga emulation under that
like this:
instead of "Developers" put "Operating systems and Emulation"
then
AMIGAOS:
MORPHOS:
AROS:
LINUX PPC:
AMIGA EMULATION:
it would look better.
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all I asked was A.org or Aw.net?
If only...
I personly think A.org is miles better than amigaworld.net becuase you can get away with much more and poeple dont ban you all the time.
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My previous message was not solely for your benefit. I'm not defending your comments (far from it), but rather the right of privacy that all channel members should have.
Was it not quoted from a public channel? Then i see no problem here. This is no different from people pasting quotes from forum threads on this forum. If it was in a private message, then that would be a entirely different case. There is no such as privacy in a public chat room and same thing goes for a public forum.
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@Paradox,
There will be a time when all forums, content, and everything else is updated to reflect a new world. That time will come when the Amiga has new hardware, and new (commercial) software developers -- or the current site completely collapses. Whichever comes first eh?
Wayne
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redrumloa wrote:
I'm waiting for a reason to lock it, but havn't seen any flamefest yet to justify locking it.
:flame:
-Edit-
I am thinking of moving it to the CH. Moderators opinions? Wayne?
Just relegate it to the trash can, you know you want to ;-)
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dialy ?
No DSL then ?
Ok, I fixed the typo. :-P
Dammy
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With a topic like this the answerr will have to go along the way of "na nana na naaaa na". :insane:
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we dont want no stinking nannas here !!
;-)
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Hey! I like nannas. Good source of potassium..
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Here is the baddest nanna:
click (http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://sjl-static8.sjl.youtube.com/vi/bPmRZ9qBYls/2.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DbPmRZ9qBYls&h=97&w=130&sz=5&hl=en&start=1&tbnid=KbVw5lK4z0bHrM:&tbnh=68&tbnw=91&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcatherine%2Btate%2Bshow%2Bnan%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN)
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106 posts...
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Wayne wrote:
Likewise, in this "free Internet world", people assume (badly I'm afraid) that they have the right to say whatever they want, then whine and complain when it offends someone. The Internet, in a very big way, is contributing to the delinquency of society as the very kids who were just getting into computers when the Internet came into popularity are now becoming parents themselves.
Respect.
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Hans wrote:
I agree with many of your points, but that may be because I come from an ethnically diverse country that celebrates this diversity. I'm used to dealing with people that are different from me. Not everyone is though. I've also found that most people truly believe that they can see the other side of the coin, but that no-one else can see their side.
A funny "oximoron" that I face daily when living in an ethnically diverse country is that because it's their way, they also think that everyone else should be ethincally diverese and "open minded" (because it's not "open mindedness" we have; when there is NO OTHER CHOICE, it's all you got. Open minded would be an African that accepted whites in his own country, even though they have pillaged his world... It's by choice, not by force/circumstance that makes one have an open mind).
So basically, the USA takes the role of world police, trying to "tell" (with bombs?) everyone that the "right" way is democracy and ethnic diversity, and at the same time that "freedom of speech and choice" is a basic write, is oximoronic at best. Well, guess what? Arabs don't want ethnic diversity, and that's by choice. If you're not a hypocrit, then you leave them alone, because then you respect their freedom of choice. Not what we're doing.
Now, don't get me wrong, I think proper democratic institutions would benefit most peoples, but they should chose it for themselves.
And when I say that having NO ethnic diversity is ok, I don't mean all French kill every German that steps in Paris, but treat them with civility, even if that's less than they would treat their own (within bounds of course, which would be more or less common around the world). And I say this, because frankly, I'd prefer the Japanese to keep on eating rice and fish (mmm, sushi ROCKS), and the Belgians and Germans drinking good thick ales, and the French their croissants (sp?), and and and, because when I travel to those countries, I'd rather it be like I went to another planet and not all McDonald & Walmart riddled, with "cookie cutter" homes, etc. There's plenty of that here. No need for more. No need for 1984.
So, cheers to limited unbound ethnic diversity and unlimited world diversity!
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MarkTime wrote:
Yes, I agree. You do sound very old when you say that. It's pretty much what every older generation says about the next. Just copy and paste.
But I love to argue with you, and why, you were making a point. And you are right, internet is changing society. One way this is obvious is in language trends. Most smaller languages (less than 100,000 speakers) are dying at an incredible pace. Only the largest languages...English, Spanish, Chinese...and about 5 others, I won't name them all, are hanging on. And I attribute this to a smaller world...people don't live in isolation as much, and children tend to adopt the dominate language when given a choice, and English, being the codepage that all our computers have, is the biggest benefactor of technologies progress.
I know this is all boring to us internet users, and quick I better make a joke or flash a picture of a naked woman, because I'm losing the audience with this crap....
but, if someone were to guess the future, a future, with fewer languages, is one of the biggest things to happen to humanity in thousands of years, if you ask me. I know a lot of English speakers, think this trend is great.
But it will be like killing off French in Lousianna (or Hawaiian in Hawaii). It sounded great until after it was successful. Then the legislature went back and adopted acadian as an official language. (and similarly in Hawaii, they set up Hawaiian immerson schools to try to save the language from extinction) Suddenly states realized they had been benefiting from diversity...being a cookie cutter image of every other state does nothing for tourism.
And as a student of language...thinking is different in different languages...different types of thinking can be good for comparison purposes. Still, good or bad, the world is going to march forward and change.
All we can do, is think what we can do, to influence the direction of change, for the better.
HUGE RESPECT.
One little thing I want to add is something that I've heard in the past and I'm always interested in hearing more scientific studies about: the language you speak, dictates the way you think. Plurality of languages might even enhance your thinking, because you can think from different approaches and angles. And to add to this, all the "old world" thinkers, philosophers and scientists that are the giants upon which the world of today stands, most of them spoke a multitude of languages. Something to think about.
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Roj wrote:
Wayne wrote:
Trouble is, having not been taught etiquette, debate, and how to responsibly handle free expression, these "kids" who are now becoming parents have no idea how to raise a responsible child.
(continuing off-topic)
This is good stuff, and I agree with nearly everything you've said, Wayne, but I don't think just the ability to verbally hammer others without reprisal is the cause. I'm sure the real cause runs much deeper and is topic for a different forum. There are still many things that are perfectly legal, yet remain socially unacceptable. We're getting to the point in our society where our governments feel it necessary to instate laws that cover every little corner of life because people just can't straighten up and fly right on their own.
Roj, you should re-read Wayne's post. He clearly states the reason:
"Trouble is, having not been taught etiquette, debate, and how to responsibly handle free expression, these "kids" who are now becoming parents have no idea how to raise a responsible child."
The key word is "taught". Kids aren't taught properly. This points to the major culprit: the parents. Not school, because school won't do jack when your parents don't do the proper job of a parent: to teach values and etiquette. It's also laughable to think that the government can do anything about this.
Nothing "deeper" to look for or investigate (other than why are parents not doing their jobs right; could it be broken families, etc? that certainly is another topic of discussion)
-
MY APOLOGY:
I'm sorry if I "re-opened" this thread. I don't even know how I stumbled up on it. BUT, at least, I stayed COMPLETELY off topic :-D Nothing about AW or AO or MO or whatever. It's obvious as self-modifying code which one I prefer, anyways ;-)
-
OK folks....
This thread has run its course. Time to put it to bed.
As of now this thread is locked. If you want to restart it, please do so in the coffee house.
Regards,
Ltstanfo