Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: Fester on December 21, 2006, 02:36:08 AM
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Hi there,
I listed a Spider 2 USB 2 PCI card for A1200 on eBay last week but decided to yank it off eBay after someone by the name of Chris wrote in to say there were no drivers available for it. My understanding is that USB card isn't going to work without drivers. I don't know if this is true or not since I never got to install it. Don't own a 1200 anymore.
Shoot me a pmail if you'd like to have it. I'll charge you shipping costs, that's it. Otherwise it's going next door to the game farm for target practice.
Here are links to some pictures of the thing...
Spider Pic 1 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_1.jpg), Spider Pic 2 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_2.jpg), Spider Pic 3 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_3.jpg), Spider Pic 4 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_4.jpg)
Good luck with it.
Fester
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Geeeezuz Fester, get back in your room! hahahahaha j/k
I wish an experienced Amiganaut would answer this question of yours as now you've piqued my interest!
:roll:
Fester wrote:
Hi there,
I listed a Spider 2 USB 2 PCI card for A1200 on eBay last week but decided to yank it off eBay after someone by the name of Chris wrote in to say there were no drivers available for it. My understanding is that USB card isn't going to work without drivers. I don't know if this is true or not since I never got to install it. Don't own a 1200 anymore.
Shoot me a pmail if you'd like to have it. I'll charge you shipping costs, that's it. Otherwise it's going next door to the game farm for target practice.
Here are links to some pictures of the thing...
Spider Pic 1 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_1.jpg), Spider Pic 2 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_2.jpg), Spider Pic 3 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_3.jpg), Spider Pic 4 (http://www.grements.com/ebay/spider/spider_4.jpg)
Good luck with it.
Fester
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Ouch! That's rough!! First this company randomly trashed people's hard drives, not they sell products with now drivers? :-x
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It actually comes with a driver, but the developer of the only USB stack for the Amiga has discontinued classic support and registrations. (Bummer too since the Thylacine Z2 USB was just re-launched after a couple of years...)
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adolescent wrote:
It actually comes with a driver, but the developer of the only USB stack for the Amiga has discontinued classic support and registrations.
That's a more accurate description. I browsed over to Elbox.com and they are still selling this Spider 2. But when you click on the registration link you get this (http://platon42.de/poseidonreg.html) little surprise. That's unfortunate.
Fester
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This is the official reply from Elbox posted yesterday on the Mediator mailing list:
Hello Chris,
> This is a bit bad.
> http://platon42.de/poseidonreg.html
>
> What is elbox verdict on this ?
We have no idea why Chris Hodges goes along this line
once again. He does not contacted us on this issue. It
all looks as if he had the need, from time to time, to
slander us.
> Will they be offering refunds for hardware?
According to our mutual agreement with Chris Hodges, he is
obliged to provide stack registrations for the USB cards
for Mediator. (Writing and supplying USB drivers for
Poseidon has been an Elbox task, and registering USB stack
has been Chris Hodges task.) See: http://www.elbox.com/news_02_09_11B.html
You have every right to require Poseidon registration from
him.
> The author claims Elbox where using pirated Keys.
It is not true that we used pirated keys.
I responded to this slander at www.ppa.pl. This info was
also translated and forwarded by one Mediator user (thanks
Valwit!) to www.amiga-news.de, so Chris Hodges knows it.
The registration keys for Poseidon, used in the DRAGON
presentation at Amizaduszki, were fully legal. They were
registered through the ppa.pl registration service by Elbox
employee, who manages the computer, which was used in the
presentation.
> Will they be providing replacement software?
Possibly, especially when Chris Hodges refunds us the
costs of writing by Elbox drivers to his USB stack.
Writing of such EHCI drivers is about six months of
software programmer.
I really hope Chris Hodges would rethink it and stop this
weird action against Mediator users, himself and us.
Best regards,
Darek Smietana
Support Department of ELBOX COMPUTER
http://www.elbox.com
http://buy.elbox.com
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Why not return it to Elbox and get your money back?
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That "bad bit" has a link to register if you have other "hardware". Maybe it's possible to register pretending to be one of those people and just use the code on your real Amiga instead. ??
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so for thylacine is possible to register poseidon?
Im really tempted, as price drops now at 60AUS!!
geez
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What about Guido Mersmann's "ArakAttack"? Will it be supported by Chris?
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weirdami wrote:
Why not return it to Elbox and get your money back?
Hi weirdami,
Well, I don't own a 1200 anymore so I have no need for the device to begin with.
Secondly, I really don't want to deal with the fuss (if any) of trying to get my money back with Elbox. My main goal is a mid-winter spring cleaning of the office and garage. :-)
When I posted the infamous Spider on eBay, I didn't know that the poseidon stack software or whatever it is, could not be registered. I found that out later.
One thing I might mention though, is that I find it quite pathetic that the Amiga community has to field the brunt of this argument between a programmer and a hardware company. That's not very professional. That's all I'll say about that.
Well thanks everyone for all your responses and pmails. Several people wanted the board but I sent it to the first responder.
Fester
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I dont see the problem. If Elbox is saying that they demo'd the DRAGON and people saw Posiedon running.. and that piece of kit was registered to the guy showing the demo, I guess I dont see the problem. In general I dont see the problem. Sounds like someone is just trying to screw Elbox out of some extra cash.
-Alex
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@MagicM:
elbox said that the registration belongs to a guy that works for them, he owns NO amiga and that they use the registration inside their business. that happens to be against the Poseidon user license agreement, like with EVERY software out there that has PERSONALISED registration. this is no site license, but a license for a single person to use in his own amigas.
also there might be some other stuff we don't know, I cannot see why any software author would stop accepting registrations after such a long developement time invested...
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That doesnt make any difference. If I'm using my work laptop at home and I buy a game I can play it on my work laptop. I may not own the laptop but that doesnt mean I cant install the game on my laptop.
EDIT:
worst case, he installed posiedon on more then one Amiga..his development machine @ Elbox and the one he demo'd it on. Ok, delete the one you had it installed on and just leave on one machine. No harm no foul.
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TheMagicM wrote:
That doesnt make any difference. If I'm using my work laptop at home and I buy a game I can play it on my work laptop. I may not own the laptop but that doesnt mean I cant install the game on my laptop.
Yup I agree. I think this is a case of splitting hairs and getting angry over nothing, turning around and making every customer suffer for it.
Fester
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no, the way I see it, he regged and ALL of elbox as they have admitted , were using it in their developer computers.
so, no, the example u say about the work laptop and your game is not correct, is it not piracy when u buy the game, use it in the 2-3 computers you use AND share it with your co-workers?
edit:
The version of Poseidon installed on the machine that had been presented at the Amizaduszki IS REGISTERED to a permanent employee of Elb*x. The registration had been issued through PPA. The employee is no Amiga user, he does not have (and never had) an Amiga at home and the registration is only used within the company.
< .... >
Finally, the licences sold via PPA are all V2.x licences and only one of these users have upgraded to V3.x. This one user has an Amiga, thus cannot be the one Elb*x mentions.
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if he gave out his registration to other co-workers then I understand the frustration. Whether he has a Amiga or not doesnt make any difference.
BUT if he installed this on mutiple machines at work but they were only used by him, the just apoligize and just to make it right buy x amount of licenses.
Kinda stupid to make the whole community pay.
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Chain wrote:
so for thylacine is possible to register poseidon?
Im really tempted, as price drops now at 60AUS!!
geez
Not according to the Posiedon website. All non-OEM licenses are discontinued (Subway, Algor, etc.). And, even OEM 2.x licenses can only be upgraded until the end of the year.
It's really a bad situation. Reasons aside, it's another shareware author abandoning the platform.
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yeah, making the whole community pay is not very nice, I agree... but since subway, algor, algor-pro and highway still have their OEM licenses, then just get this hardware! and if/when elbox makes a stack then get theirs if u wanna... it is not like the end of poseidon , I mean it runs only on 7 products, 2 are the spiders and 3 is the thyaciline... you can still get a NEW subway with a licence and an el-cheapo zorro-clockport card to use it.
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Well, lets say what your seeing here is just the tip of the iceberg.
Sure they might have had an "mutal" agreement over Chris providing the stack, but that "mutal" agreement didn't include {bleep}izing the PCI-card (read making it possible to charge supreme for whats really a 10$ OEM-part), nor connecting it to nasty trojans.
Remember how Elbox claimed they didn't need to buy P96, cos they would realease their own RTG-system shortly after ? Yup the claimed the same bout the USB-stack. Now lets see how far they get without one...
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How long has this fight been going on anyway? Has it been long enough or Elbox to have gone and written a whole new stackawhateverdeal?
What's with that website doing "Elb*x"?
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I do not understand how can someone hold such a grudge against Elbox for somthing so stupid. Yes, Elbox might not be the perfrect company and yes their cards are overpriced, but hey, they are one of the few, if not the only amiga hardware developer left.
So, what is Chris trying to do? To help kill Elbox? And even if he managed to do it, what would that accomplish?
A personal vendetta? Maybe, but certanly not a service to the Amiga community...
I really cannot understand this.
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Who is this guy Chris..as he seems...like a real LOOOZER..
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@keropi
Then why cut off upgrades to Subway (and other E3B) product holders? He's abandoning all classic support, not just Elbox.
Edit: I have nothing against Chris and think his contribution to the Amiga community has been great. After all, it's his software, so it's his right to do with it as he pleases. I still hold out hope that another run of the Algor pro will be done (and if so that the OEM Poseidon 3.x license will be included). The subway on clockport/kickflash just isn't a good solution for me.
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@TheMagicM
Sounds like someone is just trying to screw Elbox out of some extra cash
Sounds like we're only hearing part of the story.
@Kronos
Remember how Elbox claimed they didn't need to buy P96,
Reading through the website, it seems Chris had reservations and a mistrust of Elbox from the start at least partially because of P96. Elbox even appearing to mess around with the licenses couldn't look good.
@alenppc
I do not understand how can someone hold such a grudge against Elbox for somthing so stupid.
Right or wrong, if you work hard on something and you preceive someone's taking advantage, you're going to be annoyed. I've been there, most everyone has.
@Vlabguy1
Who is this guy Chris..as he seems...like a real LOOOZER..
Definitly not going to improve the situation with that.
Looks like Elbox is either going to work things out with Chris, or start writing their own stack. I wonder which is less effort and expense?
I wouldn't be suprised if this is not the end of the story.
Plaz
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I think you are right, Plaz. We aren't through the forth-coming attractions yet.
(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/Popcorn.jpg)
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Somebody ought to look at this Vinvulum (http://www.vinculum.com/) It's a chip with two USB ports on board... plus it has a CPU, with it's own USB stack.
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@Vlabguy1:
chris the author of the only USB stack for the amiga a "loozer" ???
I don't see YOU writting a usb stack, the only LOOSER is you that apparently knows nothing. go learn and then post something that worths posting.
@all:
how would you react is someone stole years of your work? the fact that elbox is one of the last hw developers on amiga gives it immunity to theft? I don't get you people. poseidon reached a stage that now IT MIGHT NEED only one more update for the 68k platform, it is a mature product and the classic amiga left the train at 233mhz cpu's. stop whinning and if you really need an amiga USB solution go buy the hardware that author granted license and is payed for.
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I will insist on this:
ArakAttack (http://aminet.net/package/hard/drivr/ArakAttack) supports most of USB2 PCI cards (Spider1/2 included as it's a standard NEC card) using OpenPCI. Registration costs 20 Euros.
Mediator *is* supported by OpenPCI (http://bvernoux.free.fr/DevPCI.php)
So, what's the problem with Mediator? Simply register ArakAttack and Poseidon. Since you can buy a standard PCI card, it's around 25 Euros cheaper than buying a Spider.
If you already have a Spider you can register Guido Mersmann's ArakAttack and continue using it.
BTW Guido's ArakAttack is *faster* than Elbox driver in the same hardware.
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@Crumb
Again, the driver is not the issue. The Elbox Spider I/II come with a driver. It's the USB stack, Poseidon, that is not available. You can not register Poseidon for ArakAttack either.
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Does any of this affect it's function as a doorstop?
:-D :-D :-D
If memory serves, wasn't there some rediculous fee for USB development licensing?
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huronking wrote:
Does any of this affect it's function as a doorstop?
:-D :-D :-D
I hope not! :-) Thanks for the humor. Working in support, I need that once in a while...
Well anyway, it may not even function as a doorstop because it's so very light in weight.
Fester
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OpenPCI does not support Mediator. The OpenPCI page is very misleading as it says in one place that it does and in another that it doesn't. But the fact is, if it did it would be a lot easier for us. OpenPCI drivers do not work on the mediator (if anyone has gotten them to work please let us know how). :-)
--------------------------
February 9, 2003:
- OpenPci.library v1.0 (with powerpci.library 1.76 for Amithlon included)
Information: The mediator support of a well-known company is definitively canceled because of their poor developer policy and their questionable attitude towards customers.
--------------------------
The problem in this case was that Elbox wasn't willing to open source their drivers. But fair enough. OpenPCI is open by definition so I can see why they do not want to support the Mediator.
I agree that calling Chris a loser is definitely an exaggeration, after all, we all must recognise his talent and contribution to the Amiga. On the other hand, if he were a person who really valued his own hard work why on earth would he reject registrations for his product? After all, if I am a Windows user and I want to register a program I am never going to use why shouldn't I be able to do that if I want to?
For instance, I haven't got an Xbox, but I bought its controller, and rewired it in order to use it on the PC because I wanted to. Should Microsoft imposed me to present my Xbox at the local store or else they wouldn't sell me the controller? It wouldn't make sense, would it?
Then again this is the last comment he posted on his website:
Small update (21.12.06):
Although Elb*x subbornly state that they have an agreement with me, this is not valid for several years now. This agreement has been canceled. Elb*x knows this very well.
[...]
Ok, there might or might not be an agreement. It's his word against theirs. Depending on the jurisdiction a verbal agreement might have the same value as the written one, but I'm not going to go into that. There is no way to know...
And some notice to some of the Elb*x fan boys out there demanding legal action against me for not selling them licences: Get a life! Using or spreading an illegal keyfile is still piracy, no matter if the product is abandoned or not.
[...]
"Elbox fan boys"? Isn't this a bit harsh? Just because you are buying hardware from perhaps the only classic amiga hardware manufacturer that makes you a "fan boy"? Besides, did anyone actually threathen him with a legal action? That sounds silly. Yes, we all know that you cannot use an illegal keyfile, no debating there.
Dude, if you don't want money for your product either you already have enough and maybe you should release the product for free?! Either that or destroy it alltogether...
I expect to see some cracking instructions for Poseidon on the Mediator mailing list (which is ruled by the kings of censorship and spindoctorism themselves) rather than anything constructive.
This doesn't make sense. The Mediator mailing list is simply made by users trying to help each other with hw/sw issues and I certanly wouldn't define it as "ruled by kings of censorship". The ML has had its fair share of Elbox criticisms. I don't think the moderators would ever allow "craking instructions" to be posted, and I suppose you could call that "censorhip" if you like.
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Looking at those pictures, I think that it would only be good at stopping small doors. :-P
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alenppc wrote:
OpenPCI does not support Mediator. The OpenPCI page is very misleading as
it says in one place that it does and in another that it doesn't. But the
fact is, if it did it would be a lot easier for us. OpenPCI drivers do not
work on the mediator (if anyone has gotten them to work please let us know
how). :-)
The latest version does, well, somehow. Because the memory management for
"DMA memory" is virtually non-existant in the Elbox pci.library, it won't
work that well.
The problem in this case was that Elbox wasn't willing to open source their
drivers. But fair enough. OpenPCI is open by definition so I can see why
they do not want to support the Mediator.
No, this was not the problem. This was not about open-sourcing *their*
code. OpenPCI is not open-source itself and was never to become. No, Elbox
simply refuses to let people write drivers using OpenPCI, which would THEN
also be available for other PCI solutions. Even a USB driver would have
been possible that way (and ArakAttack is actually this driver), but then
Elbox couldn't have made a fortune in selling a bog standard USB PCI card
for a >50 EUR that costs them less than a tenth of that selling price.
OpenPCI for Mediator would have been a benefit for lots of users at that
time, but Elbox decided that the monopolious realm was more important to
them.
Ok, there might or might not be an agreement. It's his word against theirs.
Depending on the jurisdiction a verbal agreement might have the same value
as the written one, but I'm not going to go into that. There is no way to
know...
Somebody recently asked on A.org about the worst decision made connected to
Amiga, for me it was offering Elbox to write a driver for Poseidon. Lots of
people warned me, especially after the experiences with the Picasso96 team,
Warp3D, OpenPCI, but I thought I should give them a chance. It was a
mistake I still regret and that had caused me a lot of grief.
After all those mud-slinging, libel, illegal RDB killing software, denials,
{bleep}ting PR campaigns, censorship (since Elbox has taken over the
moderation of the Amiga-Mediator List, it's being massively censored!),
word-twisting etc. I now know better. And the thing is: the users support
this "company" after all!
"Elbox fan boys"? Isn't this a bit harsh?
[...] Besides, did anyone actually threathen him with a legal action?
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Mediator/message/18140
"If you don't act legaly against him, both u suffer
from profit losses and us users who already have the
spider and no poseidon are screwed, because we're
stuck with a board that is of no use to us."
"I'm just saying: Take it to him
and force him to change his stance legaly!"
Yes, we all know that you cannot use an illegal keyfile, no debating there.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Amiga-Mediator/message/18141
"Should the keys now be release free into he public domain so existing user
benefit from them?"
And the best bits:
"We have no idea why Chris Hodges goes along this line once again."
Ya right. Reading and thinking would do the trick.
"This info was also translated and forwarded by one Mediator user (thanks
Valwit!) to www.amiga-news.de, so Chris Hodges knows it."
Along with some more attempts to slander me and Michael Böhmer of E3B,
which was not involved here.
And now, the climax:
"> Will they be providing replacement software?
Possibly, especially when Chris Hodges refunds us the
costs of writing by Elbox drivers to his USB stack.
Writing of such EHCI drivers is about six months of
software programmer."
WTF! I didn't order them to write a driver, they were free to do so!
Dude, if you don't want money for your product either you already have
enough and maybe you should release the product for free?! Either that or
destroy it alltogether...
Well, that's solely my decision, isn't it? And how would I be able to
"destroy it alltogether"?
I expect to see some cracking instructions for Poseidon on the Mediator
mailing list (which is ruled by the kings of censorship and spindoctorism
themselves) rather than anything constructive.
This doesn't make sense. The Mediator mailing list is simply made by users
trying to help each other with hw/sw issues and I certanly wouldn't define
it as "ruled by kings of censorship". The ML has had its fair share of
Elbox criticisms. I don't think the moderators would ever allow "craking
instructions" to be posted, and I suppose you could call that "censorhip"
if you like.
The former moderators (who did a good job) transferred the ownership to
Elbox. Elbox is now blocking any message that is against them; Jens
Schönfeld and Michael Böhmer for example are censored by default. There's
no way there to speak up against their {bleep}ting.
Anyway, I might find a way to exclude Elbox products only from the next
releases on, so I can resume giving out keyfile to the classic Amigans and
Amithlon users out there.
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Hi Chris, I appreciate you taking the time to reply here and explain your point of view.
Anyway, I might find a way to exclude Elbox products only from the next releases on, so I can resume giving out keyfile to the classic Amigans and Amithlon users out there.
That IMHO, would be the best solution. If you don't want to support the mediator that of course is your right, and at least the other classic users would not be penalised becase of it.