Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: redrumloa on December 05, 2006, 10:45:46 PM
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Seems to me 2006 was another year of death in the AmigaNG market. What promise does 2007 hold? Any? The only thing I see if a possibility of MorphOS on Efika, which I only mantain a passing interest in. Any earth shattering AROS developments upcoming? Any suprise products next X-mas based on MiniMig or Clone-A? OS4? Well.. I won't believe anything there until I see it.. OS5 pipedream just seems too far off if even if it is in development.
I'm not seeing much, help fill in the blanks if i am missing anything, please.
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Let me put it to you this way, AROS X86_64's modular kernel will be LGPL'd. Gotta lot of hopes in 07 for AROS.
Dammy
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@dammy
I fail to see what's so special about AROS running on AMD64.
Will I be able to run more software? Will it be more useful than the current 32bit version?
If AROS is ported to 64bit it will be great, but what AROS needs urgently are USEFUL APPS comparable to those you used 5 years ago on an A1200.
I may run a cpu at 5TeraHertz but it would be useless without useful software.
If at least AROS could run legacy 680x0 software it could be more interesting. But if legacy 680x0 software is not important why stick to an old and outdated API like AmigaOS3.x, uh?
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I fail to see what's so special about AROS running on AMD64.
Will I be able to run more software? Will it be more useful than the current 32bit version?
Until it's back ported to x86, hell yes it's a major upgrade (modular kernel, MMU support) of AROS. This will allow greater freedom on doing ports of other open source software that would not be possible (ie license conflicts) with the current x86/PPC AROS kernel. The issue of it being hard real time kernel has been brought up to Michal and he was positive on the idea.
Does this sound like we are going to see alot of improvement for AROS in 07? I sure think so.
As far as UAE integration, this maybe the month of a major announcement. Depends if the dev can finally clear some time for it.
Dammy
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Crumb's post may be a little harsh, but it's true. AROS has a serious lack of applications. The situation is far more dire than Classic, OS4, and MOS. If UAE integration is the way to improve that, then awesome. I'll set up an AROS box on the spot.
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At the moment Efika is the only thing resembling a bright spot this year. MOS users have a new toy, but will AOS give it a look? I won't hold my breath. I think the only other interesting thing I noticed this year was Carl Sassenrath's continued interest in things Amiga based on his appearance and discussion at Amiwest. I know I'm nuts to hope, but I'd like to think someone might come up with some thing .real by christmas. Other than that you guys might be depressing my if I wern't used to so much bad news already. :-P
@Dammy
Nothing at all against AROS, but 2006 didn't have much excitement for me. Maybe 2007 will be your year. I'm among those who think AROS on PS3 would be cool and an attention getter though. I definitely would like to try the X86_64 version on my virtual server too.
Plaz
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There will probably be another promise of OS4 being released in summer and then there will be a promise for christmas 2007.
I honestly dont think much will happen....
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Let me put it to you this way, AROS X86_64's modular kernel will be LGPL'd. Gotta lot of hopes in 07 for AROS.
I would find it much more interesting if you implemented some kind of emulation layer, which will allow you to turn 68k apps and games. I see no point in native 64bit version when you still cannot run anything on the OS with the exception of uae and lunapaint.
The OS itself seems very promising, but it sadly just aint of any use to me when i cannot do anything but play with the gui and a few demos.
So i think emulation and native software should be of much higher priority.
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BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! AROS is the way to go don't you get it? Stop lamenting like little kids on what's missing in it and maybe offer some help. At least AROS is open source and anyone can help in developing it. AOS 3, 4 and the vaporware 5 are all good promises and promises and lies, more lies and lies after lies. The sad thing is.. none of you can do anything about but just submit questions to Amiga Inc. and get some phony answers back. When are you guys going to wake up from the fairy dream and start maybe focus on something that could REALLY be the OS we have been waiting for???
WAKE UP, GET REAL, AND USE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERTISE FOR AROS.
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All I'm waiting for is a fully functional Firefox port and a Java runtime. Those two items alone will make AROS my primary desktop OS. That would not only give full web access, but access to Yahoo Messenger web version and allow me to pull up NOAA/NWS radar images.
That would make it usable to many people out there, which in turn would add more people coding small apps.
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Wee, another year of broken promises too.
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@Amigamia
How does AROS compared to what's completed so far on AOS and MOS? It does have the advantage of multi-platform. Once a monster at asm/binary, I strugle with C and it's mountains of libs. I wouldn't be much help if I even had the time.
BTW AOS/MOS/AROS are all just a dreamland for now.
Plaz
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Just a passing observation - flame me if you wish...
One thing I've noticed about a major part of the Amiga community, is the wish for something continually improving on the classic hardware and software, that compares favourably to other current hardware and software available. This in itself is not a bad thing. However keep this in mind...
I too tinker with the Commodore 64 computer and am active in keeping up to date with developments. There is VERY little in the way of hardware developments for the Commodore 64, and NONE that I would consider radical hardware improvements. 99% of developments are software. Software that still uses hardware that was originally available all those years ago. Opposite to the Amiga community, the majority of the users are very content to use what current hardware is available, and ENJOY THE COMPUTER FOR WHAT IT IS. They do not wish for alternate hardware and so on. Maybe, just MAYBE, there will be a time where the majority of the Amiga community will be content with what is available, in regards to what the majority of people know as the Amiga, and ENJOY it for what it is, instead of continually wishing for major changes to what we would consider an Amiga.
So, what will 2007 bring for the C64 scene, rather than the Amiga scene? Well, just have a look at the C64 sites and see what as happened in 2006. Then perhaps ask yourself is this an indication of the attitudes and directions a large group of people who are actually ENJOYING something from the past will continue with in 2007? Then compare this to the Amiga scene...
I personally enjoy keeping up to date with the C64 scene more than the Amiga scene.
"Are you keeping up with the Commodore. 'Cause the Commodore is keeping up with you."
This is by no means meant to be a judgment, just an passing observation...
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Just a passing observation - flame me if you wish...
One thing I've noticed about a major part of the Amiga community, is the wish for something continually improving on the classic hardware and software, that compares favourably to other current hardware and software available. This in itself is not a bad thing. However keep this in mind...
I too tinker with the Commodore 64 computer and am active in keeping up to date with developments. There is VERY little in the way of hardware developments for the Commodore 64, and NONE that I would consider radical hardware improvements. 99% of developments are software. Software that still uses hardware that was originally available all those years ago. Opposite to the Amiga community, the majority of the users are very content to use what current hardware is available, and ENJOY THE COMPUTER FOR WHAT IT IS. They do not wish for alternate hardware and so on. Maybe, just MAYBE, there will be a time where the majority of the Amiga community will be content with what is available, in regards to what the majority of people know as the Amiga, and ENJOY it for what it is, instead of continually wishing for major changes to what we would consider an Amiga.
So, what will 2007 bring for the C64 scene, rather than the Amiga scene? Well, just have a look at the C64 sites and see what as happened in 2006. Then perhaps ask yourself is this an indication of the attitudes and directions a large group of people who are actually ENJOYING something from the past will continue with in 2007? Then compare this to the Amiga scene...
I personally enjoy keeping up to date with the C64 scene more than the Amiga scene.
"Are you keeping up with the Commodore. 'Cause the Commodore is keeping up with you."
This is by no means meant to be a judgment, just an passing observation...
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Amiga-C64: Amiga died that sate, when it is a semi modern computer. (Severelal expansion option, for example new CPU, HDD-s, Modern Graphical OS, Video Card etc.) C64 never reach this state.
So the most of the amiga fans had a view that his/her computer can be beat any PC in performance. This is slowly died somewhere in 2000-2001, when there is no new serious hardware for amiga. (For example a new cpu card which is running 1GHz or more, etc) But every amiga fan still looking for this, because it is possible...
AROS: Interesting toy, but I think I will never use it. If i use pc, I will use xp. Maybe than, when it has a tons of software.
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I'm personally hoping hardware wise for MiniMig and nothing more, maybe i can build a nice little case for it and place it next to my TV where it belongs!
AROS is looking interesting i gave it a go on a spare PC a while ago between various Linux distributions and i've looked into coding for it, specifically i was wondering if it'd be possible to add OpenGL acceleration support to Zune but i never even got as far as seeing if it already HAD OpenGL support :-D maybe when i'm less busy coding for work i can code for ummm, well maybe not fun but nostalgia at least!
I enjoy my Amiga1200 for games and perhaps by the end of 2007 i hope to have got WHDLoad instead of running from flopy as i currently do and to have a CD-Drive working so i can install OS3.9 and maybe play some CD32 games that i've always wanted to try again.
Andy
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@Astral: I'm with you all the way.
AmigaOS is obsolete. The hardware sucks these days. Senseless patriotism for one CPU will get us nowhere. Accept it.
What we need is a new OS that gets back some of those inventive people that made the Amiga so special and fun 15 years ago. I just posted some of my old music on another forum and told some people about Audition4. There was NOTHING on the PC or the Mac at that time that could do what that sound editor did on my 7MHz A1000. That's the kind of inventive software I want to use these days, not this Linux "we can code but we can't design" crap.
Everybody has an idea of what kind of hardware they want and what the OS should be like at the low-level. Nobody has a f***ing clue what they want to do, other than browse the web with a [more] moden browser. Come on.
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Waccoon wrote:
@Astral: I'm with you all the way.
AmigaOS is obsolete. The hardware sucks these days. Senseless patriotism for one CPU will get us nowhere. Accept it.
What we need is a new OS that gets back some of those inventive people that made the Amiga so special and fun 15 years ago. I just posted some of my old music on another forum and told some people about Audition4. There was NOTHING on the PC or the Mac at that time that could do what that sound editor did on my 7MHz A1000. That's the kind of inventive software I want to use these days, not this Linux "we can code but we can't design" crap.
Everybody has an idea of what kind of hardware they want and what the OS should be like at the low-level. Nobody has a f***ing clue what they want to do, other than browse the web with a [more] moden browser. Come on.
Well the one question that comes to mind if the hardware is obsolete and OS is dead is: What exactly would you want that would make whatever you want an Amiga?
I don't mean this in jest i mean really, if you don't want the OS or the hardware then do you just want a rebanded UNIX style OS like the Mac OSX? A pretty interface built on a BSD core? Or a more usable Linux like Ubuntu is mean't to be? I know there are other OSs out there i'm just using those as examples.
The Hardware + OS is what makes the Classic Amigas interesting, whereas it's an updated OS (be it OS4,MOS or AROS) that will be the only thing that distinguishs a new machine from the Linux and Windows machines of the world.
Andy
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well well... i think that if nothing pass with AOS before the next release of MOS i'll buy an efika when it'll be supported hardware.
Nothing more than try this piece of hard/OS... and continue *ENJOYING* with my classic amiga... here in spain people say something like... 'better a bird in hands, than hundreds flying'
.end of line. :-)
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Amigamia wrote:
BLAH BLAH BLAH!!! AROS is the way to go don't you get it? Stop lamenting like little kids on what's missing in it and maybe offer some help. At least AROS is open source and anyone can help in developing it. AOS 3, 4 and the vaporware 5 are all good promises and promises and lies, more lies and lies after lies. The sad thing is.. none of you can do anything about but just submit questions to Amiga Inc. and get some phony answers back. When are you guys going to wake up from the fairy dream and start maybe focus on something that could REALLY be the OS we have been waiting for???
WAKE UP, GET REAL, AND USE YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERTISE FOR AROS.
That's all well and good except not all of us are programmers. Some of us are solid end users that while may be a bit tech savvy, have little or no real programming skills. End users, with cash in hand looking to buy a product.
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Hi there.
This is my first post here. I was a huge Amiga fan back in the 80's-early 90's, owning first an Amiga 500 then an Amiga 1200. And while I don't have either system any longer, I still have fond memories of those days. I've yet to find a computer that gives me the same feeling my old Amigas did, although my 20" iMac comes close.
I've thought about picking up an old Amiga again just to tinker with, but the more I think about it the more I think AROS with UAE integration is the way to go. That way you can run it on pretty much any Intel box (provided drivers are available). Plus, there are a ton of open source projects like Mozilla and Openoffice that could be ported over. An AROS system running Firefox and Openoffice, as well as all of the old programs and games would be a pretty nice system.
Hopefully AROS continues to improve and open source programs like Firefox are ported over. I have a spare PC that would make a great AROS box. :-)
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Welcome to Amiga.org!! AROS is nice, but you may want to consider Amiga Forever. It is an amazing turn-key emulation package that IMO provides the most complete experience overall.
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For 2007 I think I am going to throw what little support I can behind AROS. Maybe dredge up a programmer or 2 to help in that department. As for my Classic Amiga stuff, I am going to try to get a friend's A1200 off him that I know works. Fighting with the A4000 I have is driving me insane. I am not entirely giving up on that project, just looking for an alternative incase I go into orbit.:-)
Amiga and AmigaOS have been dead for years. As I have said elsewhere, too many forces are at play that are killing it. And have been killing it for years.
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I dont really look forward to anything that is "in the works" because its always turned out wrong or turned into vapourware.
I have a EFIKA, it'll be running Linux first, then MOS, so I'm happy.
That SAM board looks nice but not for the price.
MiniMig is nice but was it going to be made for the regular Joe afterall? I thought he said it wasnt?
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I have a EFIKA, it'll be running Linux first, then MOS, so I'm happy.
:-o
Let me know how it goes!!
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I have Amiga Forever. The lack of a modern browser really hurts it IMO. Plus I hate having to launch it from within Windows. Finally, it just just doesn't feel modern enough. It feel like an old Amiga OS with a lot of stuff tacked on to try and make it look modern. In other words, it feels clunky. But at least it lets me get my Amiga games fix every now and then.
I tried the AROS live cd and was impressed that it feels like a modern, updated version of the Amiga OS.
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redrumola:
I will.. still waiting on my vid card.. I want to put it in a 1541II case which I've gutted already..but for starters I'll hook it up, install Debian and check out its performance.
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Damn! I thought this was a music thread...
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A few years ago I got excited about the prospects of a Next-Gen Amiga OS. I followed the news on OS 4, picked up an A4000 (I had never personally owned an Amiga until that point, though my grandfather did) and messed around with AROS a bit. I was dissatisfied with the more mainstream OS options and wanted to try something different.
After a while I came to the conclusion that while Amiga OS was quite advanced for its time, it's time had passed. The design of the OS itself is dated and so is most of the software. Certainly some of the user experience is worth saving (fast boot times, actual simplicity rather than a simple veneer on top of an overly complex infrastructure like Linux or OS X, etc.), but you have to wonder whether dragging the Amiga's rotting carcass into modern computing is really the best solution.
There are other alternative operating systems that achieve at least some parts of the Amiga user experience. I've grown quite fond of Syllable. It's not quite to the point where it can replace Windows as my primary OS, but it's a lot closer to achieving that than my A4000 or AROS. Haiku an open source BeOS clone) is also an option though not quite as far along as Syllable in many regards.
I am quite interested in the Minimig/CloneA, but not as a desktop platform
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Don't count OS4 out just yet.
I don't know whats happening with OS4 licenses and hardware, but I do know what is happening with OS4 Beta; and the things that are happening indicate to me that good news may be coming very soon indeed.
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Agafaster wrote:
Damn! I thought this was a music thread...
SFU!! Slayer!! Deicide!! \m/
:-D
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I've actually checked out Haiku and it's making good progress. I used Beos for a little while back in the 90's. I liked it a lot, but ended up switching to Linux because of Beos development ending.
Since I stopped using my Amiga back in 1995, I went from Windows 95 to 98, then to Beos, then to Linux, Windows XP, and finally Mac OS X. I now dual boot between Mac OS X and Windows XP on my Intel iMac. The only time I ever boot into Windows is for games and Amiga Forever.
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redrumloa wrote:
Agafaster wrote:
Damn! I thought this was a music thread...
SFU!! Slayer!! Deicide!! \m/
:-D
Satyricon! Morbid Angel! At The Gates!
RAWK! (now wheres the headbangin emoticon when I need it ?!)
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@xeron,
how could I doubt the word of the man who created the Slade II picture ?! :-D
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xeron wrote:
Don't count OS4 out just yet.
I don't know whats happening with OS4 licenses and hardware, but I do know what is happening with OS4 Beta; and the things that are happening indicate to me that good news may be coming very soon indeed.
Without wishing to stir up any arguments or point out the obvious... But you have been saying that for years... it's getting boring there's no evidence to back up what you say. If you can't disclose what you know, don't bother saying anything!
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xeron wrote:
Don't count OS4 out just yet.
I don't know whats happening with OS4 licenses and hardware, but I do know what is happening with OS4 Beta; and the things that are happening indicate to me that good news may be coming very soon indeed.
I have heard this same story from several places over the years. Much like the IT/Programming department at the orifice I work at, I do not believe any pronouncements til I actually see the thing. I have been waiting for something from OS4 for years. I suspect we will still be waiting for years to come.
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2007 is the year of the Amiga!
Like years 2006 (http://pulp.wrongpla.net/news/article168.html) and 2005 (http://pulp.wrongpla.net/news/article152.html) ;-)
It has been dead 13 years, who should it come back?
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dammy wrote:
This will allow greater freedom on doing ports of other open source software that would not be possible (ie license conflicts) with the current x86/PPC AROS kernel.
How does the kernel license influence the licensing of applications?
How does LGPLing the kernel make it easier to reuse any code from that one major open-source kernel project which comes bound by the terms of the more restrictive GPL?
If the kernel is modular, with clearly defined interfaces, and drivers are distributed separately from it, does the license really matter at all? (Even if individual users 'taint' their kernels, as long as they don't redistribute that combination as a single package they're pretty well out of the grey area. Same thing goes for ugly proprietary Linux drivers, like the nVidia blobs, though the concern there is that RedHat et al would like to be able to legally ship single packaged products that actually work on anyone's hardware.)
I'm not going to complain about a less obfuscated, less restrictive license --- the LGPL specifically avoids the OMG-you-can't-distribute-this-it's-tainted problem, and tainting doesn't seem to have ever stopped any jack*** manufacturers from offering blob-only support --- but I'm not sure this solves what you think it's solving.
The BSDs have some pretty good driver code, anyway. ;)
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Finally, it just just doesn't feel modern enough. It feel like an old Amiga OS with a lot of stuff tacked on to try and make it look modern.
That is maybe because it is the old wb 3.1 that is bundled with it. Amiga Forever is not a OS, it is just a emulator package bundled with software like amigaos. The latest and more modern amigaos 4 will not run though winuae/amigaforever.
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Let me put it to you this way, AROS X86_64's modular kernel will be LGPL'd. Gotta lot of hopes in 07 for AROS.
Can you tell in plain English what LGPL license is better then the present one? Does it attract more developers?
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Opposite to the Amiga community, the majority of the users are very content to use what current hardware is available, and ENJOY THE COMPUTER FOR WHAT IT IS.
Then tell me which OS C64 runned... what is being upgraded nowadays regarding Amiga is the OS, the hardware is a commodity, I guess that didn't happened regarding C64, as it has different users, with different tastes
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for the c64 you got "geos" a macos like os, "wings" a windows like os, "Lunix" a linux like os.... just take your pick!... :-)
________
Chrysler (division) (http://www.dodge-wiki.com/wiki/Chrysler_(division))
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I came to think of two songs when I noticed this thread :violin:
"We shall overcome, some day"
and
"Que Sera, Sera,
Whatever will be, will be" :violin:
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@itix:
LOL!!
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Gotta lot of hopes in 07 for AROS.
I have to agree. It's looking more and more like AROS is the way forward.
Maybe it's the open source nature of it, I don't know, but it seems like the people that control the other alternative(s) aren't interested in an OS as much as they are a package (OS and Motherboard) like the old A500 days. I just don't think that is the way forward.
I'm interested in a Desktop OS to play with period. I've been told many times that AOS4 has no future on desktop, but it's been tough to stop holding out hope that would change. I don't think I'll ever be able to run AOS4. Time for some reality, time for AROS.
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pixie wrote:
Can you tell in plain English what LGPL license is better then the present one? Does it attract more developers?
The Lesser GPL will definitely allow for greater license-compatibility of code from going outwards (since there are many LGPL projects in the world, and provision 3 of the LGPL allows LGPL'd code to be GPL'd -- meaning further restricted, and thus compatible with inclusion in the Linux kernel tree, say).
But... since we're only talking about the AROS kernel being LGPL'd, that doesn't necessarily mean it contains anything interesting for interoperability in the real world, like filesystems or whatever.
Inbound, well, some big interesting driver stacks (ALSA (http://www.alsa-project.org/), ferinstance) are available under the LGPL, so including (derivatives of) them would be less of a brainteaser... except for the fact that the kernel isn't monolithic, so depending how you define linking, it may or may not even matter.
The AROS license isn't a particularly bad license -- the provisions that require a paper (electron?) trail in the license notices aren't a bad idea, and same had to be adopted ad-hoc by Linux to allow graphing of who claimed authorship/rightsholdership over submitted code... But being different does block you from incorporating anything intended for the GNU/"copyleft" community, which by definition exists to ensure the library of copylefted stuff grows.
Since one thing AInc. did manage to do before going twirling, twirling, twirling towards victory was respectfully ask that AROS code be as fricking inconvenient for normal humans to review as possible, it's hard to say how much of anything in the tree has already been dual-licensed AROS and GNU by its authors anyway.
(See here (http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/developers/svn.php#logging-into-the-server); of course, this seemed reasonable at the time, but we didn't know the 'community' would be at an impasse for the next five years, and that AROS core would not, say, be coughing up source snapshots as part of their release cycle.)
We're all so **** good at community-building, it's a wonder anyone's found time to ship product! (http://club.foto.ru/images/smiles/icon_suicide_fool.gif)
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How does the kernel license influence the licensing of applications?
It doesn't, I'm referring to value being placed on the new kernel and it's need to be protected. APL does not give this level of protection to the coder's work, LGPL does. Michal's new kernel has loadable modules at boot, THAT is what deal with license issues since it's the end user adding whatever modules (and they can be be under GPL or whatever license) at boot.
If the kernel is modular, with clearly defined interfaces, and drivers are distributed separately from it, does the license really matter at all? (Even if individual users 'taint' their kernels, as long as they don't redistribute that combination as a single package they're pretty well out of the grey area. Same thing goes for ugly proprietary Linux drivers, like the nVidia blobs, though the concern there is that RedHat et al would like to be able to legally ship single packaged products that actually work on anyone's hardware.)
It also allows non-driver modules to be added to the kernel at boot. If you look at TUX, you can see there are possibilities of adding non-drivers modules. I've been pushing for hard real time module (the actual kernel has a real chance to be real time based) for those who need it. Perhaps some coder will want 68K emulator in the kernel itself instead as a module.
Dammy