Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: delshay on November 27, 2006, 12:50:36 AM
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is it possible to use bluetooth pc-card or compact flash type bluetooth card on the amiga?
is it also possible via a scsi to pcmcia?
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no, don't bother at all... there is no bluetooth stack.
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The more modern PC-Cards won't work in A600/1200 since they use a PCI-style connection. Only old school PCMCIA cards (i.e. ISA) can work - as long as there's a driver.
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I have bought some time ago a serial BT adapter. I think it is meant to be used with printers, as it also have a Centronic parallel port. I intended by that time to use it on my accelerated and WiFi enabled A600.
I don't think a BT stack is required for that, as printers don't need one.
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@Xanxi
I don't think a BT stack is required for that, as printers don't need one.
The printer doesn't. But anything that talks to the device does.
How are you supposed to make the Amiga talk to the device without the bluetooth stack?
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Those devices are wireless parallel ports. One connects to the parallel port of the computer, the other connects to the printer. They use standard parallel port protocols to communicate so it is fully compatible with any parallel device, but the information is sent between the two units using bluetooth.
This device will not allow you to use bluetooth devices through the parallel port. It will only work with the corresponding printer part.
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moto
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> no, don't bother at all... there is no bluetooth stack.
And I'm not sure there ever will be. Last time I spoke with the Bluetooth SIG Marketing Director at the Bluetooth Open Houses in October, he said that I would have to pay 10,000 USD for qualifying my product (i.e. the Bluetooth Stack) and that it's very unlikely that the SIG will reduce that fee for me as a single developer.
I doubt you can imagine how this feels after spending a lot of time and work in developing the stack :-(
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@motorollin
Ah, so basically it's no "bluetooth" device in a sense. The protocol between could aswell be "redhair" or "greenblob" :-)
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Well, my Palm and my PC laptop can talk to this device plugged on the serial port of the miggy. I am sure there is a way to simulate a normal serial connection.
Those devices are intended to make BT ready devices wich only have old serial or parallel protocols.
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What a bummer! :pissed:
Chris, at least I want to thank you for trying! :bow:
And I'm not sure there ever will be. Last time I spoke with the Bluetooth SIG Marketing Director at the Bluetooth Open Houses in October, he said that I would have to pay 10,000 USD for qualifying my product (i.e. the Bluetooth Stack) and that it's very unlikely that the SIG will reduce that fee for me as a single developer.
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Thats an outrageous cost, do they realise the amiga is dead....why so frickin much
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@platon24
What does that 10,000 get you? The right to develop a Bluetooth stack? Or some insider knowledge on the protocols?
@Piru
Spot on. Bluetooth is used as the physical and transport layers, but the protocol sitting on top of that is IEEE 1284.
@Xanxi
If the bluetooth device is sending RS232 serial data encapsulated in bluetooth packets, and the bluetooth transceiver you have connected to your serial port is capable of stripping out the bluetooth protocol from each packet and passing it to the serial port as bare RS232 data, then it could work. But this relies on the device sending such data (RS232 encapsulated in Bluetooth). In reality, most Bluetooth devices use protocols which are part of the full Bluetooth stack rather than wrapping RS232 in Bluetooth transport protocols. This means a full implementation of the Bluetooth stack would be required for AmigaOS to understand the traffic.
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moto
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What does that 10,000 get you? The right to develop a Bluetooth stack? Or some insider knowledge on the protocols?
To get access to the Bluetooth specifications, you have to register and agree to some licence conditions. These conditions also include the use of the Bluetooth trademark and symbol, but only on products which have been previously qualified by the Bluetooth SIG. The qualifications process includes testing against the ProfileTestSuite (USD 7,000 standalone). Usually, these qualifications test is done by the Bluetooth Chipset Vendors for Bluetooth Devices. Companies with dedicated Bluetooth Stack IP like Broadcom, CSR, Microsoft, OpenInterface and IVT live on selling and licencing their Bluetooth products and hence, the USD 10,000 is a piece of cake.
If the bluetooth device is sending RS232 serial data encapsulated in bluetooth packets, and the bluetooth transceiver you have connected to your serial port is capable of stripping out the bluetooth protocol from each packet and passing it to the serial port as bare RS232 data, then it could work. But this relies on the device sending such data (RS232 encapsulated in Bluetooth). In reality, most Bluetooth devices use protocols which are part of the full Bluetooth stack rather than wrapping RS232 in Bluetooth transport protocols. This means a full implementation of the Bluetooth stack would be required for AmigaOS to understand the traffic.
No, that's not that easy. A bluetooth dongle for USB for example, sends USB packets. These USB packets build up a USB transfer. One USB transfer may contain an ACL packet, which can be fragmented across multiple USB transfers. Each ACL packet then again contains one or more L2CAP packets, which in turn can be fragmented across multiple ACL packets. The L2CAP packized data stream is the basis for higher level protocols such as RFCOMM. And you have guessed right, RFCOMM serial data packets are again multiplexed (up to 62 connections at the same time) for such a simple thing as a serial line, which is defined in the SerialPortProfile, using RFCOMM, using L2CAP, using ACL transport, using the USB HCI.
And this was just the data flow. Each layer has a separate control state machine for establishing a Bluetooth ACL link, a L2CAP connection, opening an RFCOMM channel.
And yeah, a few months ago, I had my BT MP3 Headsets working through A2DP, AVDTP, L2CAP and HCI. Sigh. And I opened my first RFCOMM channel...
Well, if somebody finds a legal hole in these licence agreements to avoid paying the 10,000 USD and still be able to release the stack, go ahead and tell me.
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What I said about serial packets encapsulated in Bluetooth protocols was only in relation to Xanxi's serial port Bluetooth PDA connection thingy, which he said allowed serial PDAs to connect to the serial port through Bluetooth. Presumably these work in a similary way to bluetooth parallel ports, which wrap IEEE1284 packets in Bluetooth protocols to transport them.
I'm aware that USB bluetooth is much more complicated (and proprietary) - which is why I said a full bluetooth stack would be necessary for this to work.
If you develop a Bluetooth stack without their help, do you still have to pay the 10,000 if you want to release it?
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moto
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How do Linux developers get around this issue? Ubuntu comes with a free and working Bluetooth stack, as I'm sure do many other distros...
- Ali
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How do Linux developers get around this issue?
BlueZ - Official Linux Bluetooth protocol stack (http://www.bluez.org/)
Before you think about using it, read this (http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php?msg_id=20745439)
Also:
BlueZ was originally developed by Qualcomm Incorporated.
My guess is that Qualcomm somehow handled the license fee etc.
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What about a bounty for pay the licence agreements and release it as freeware? you must relese it for Amigaos, morphos and aros to get more people to pay for.Only an idea
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@platon42
Are you still developing the Bluetooth stack? You could initially release it without qualifying. I know that this is not the way you'd prefer to go, but it is an option. You would not be allowed to include the Bluetooth logo and would have to state that it's "Bluetooth compatible but not qualified".
Another option would be to set up a donation site. If you design the stack to work with the 68k AmigaOS, AmigaOS4, Morphos, and AROS, we might be able to scrape together the cash. It'll be a pity that all the money will go toward qualification, instead of rewarding you for your hard work.
The BlueZ stack for Linux was qualified with the help from TomTom (http://tomtom.com) who probably paid for it. Have you tried contacting Amiga Inc., Hyperion or Genesi? It's worth a try. Contacting DiscreetFX might be an idea as well. They've announced an interest in buying Amiga Inc. and appear to be interested in pushing the Amiga forward.
I hope you can find a way to proceed somehow as Bluetooth is becoming more and more important. It would be a real shame for all your work to go to waste.
Hans
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Does anyone else have any suggestions? From the sounds of it, Platon42 has already done quite a bit of work on a Bluetooth stack. Bluetooth devices are becoming more and more numerous. Wii's controller, for example, uses Bluetooth.
All we need is to either come up with $10,000 USD, or, find a way that Platon42 can release his work without it. The way I see it, there's nothing wrong with using a non qualified stack to communicate with Bluetooth devices. This is the same thing as MESA being OpenGL compatible, but not OpenGL certified. MESA can't use the OpenGL logo, but OpenGL apps still compile and run with it. Surely Platon42 could release it under a name other than Bluetooth and provide necessary disclaimers saying it hasn't been qualified and hence is not guaranteed to work with all devices (just because it hasn't gone through the testing procedures)?
So, any other creative ideas?
Hans
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@Hans
FYI
platon42 has never contacted DiscreetFX about his Bluetooth stack.
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Hmm - what about calling it "Greentongue" and make it just "Bluetooth compatible" - in this our small Amiga world, we'll all know what to do with it. ;-)
As long as you're using open specs, this should be perfectly legal, since you're even allowed reverse engineering for interoperability.
If you ever pick up Amiga development again that is...
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@platon42
can't you simply release your Bluetooth stack without getting a certificate?
I could live without the Bluetooth logo and I could live without a message stating that Chris' wireless stack is certified and licensed. :-)
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platon42 wrote:
> no, don't bother at all... there is no bluetooth stack.
And I'm not sure there ever will be. Last time I spoke with the Bluetooth SIG Marketing Director at the Bluetooth Open Houses in October, he said that I would have to pay 10,000 USD for qualifying my product (i.e. the Bluetooth Stack) and that it's very unlikely that the SIG will reduce that fee for me as a single developer.
I doubt you can imagine how this feels after spending a lot of time and work in developing the stack :-(
Can't you just call it GreenTooth and say it's BlueToothTM compatible? Then you can certify the it works with specific BlueTooth devices without saying it's BlueTooth certified, etc.?
I'm sure Amiga users would still be interested.
-Nyle :-D
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Ok, Great minds think alike. I'm sorry I shall flog myself for not reading the last two posts on the thread.
-Nyle