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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Helgis75 on May 24, 2003, 12:23:48 PM
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After receiving a mail from Gunne about going for the AmigaOne G3-XE instead, being mainfold, i will tell you why to do this...
On the contrary, A1G3XE has a 750FX G3 at 800Mhz being faster than the G4 on the same frequency, as long as the Altivec unit of the G4 is not used and supported...
Secondly, because the G3 almost doesn't get warm at all, only generating 3V, while the G4 with the Altivec activated generates 500% more eletrical power than the G3. This is why Eyetech at the moment was looking for a suitable deliver of G4 CPU-fans, which means they will receive the A1G4XE boards at still an uncertain date, which could be another couple of weeks...
The advice i got from Gunne was that he would now order a small bunch of A1G3XE boards, which is still not being ordered yet, except from me now being the first who has exchanged my order going from A1G4XE to the A1G3XE instead. The reasons have been very clear, and the G3 should be 100% a stable system, while the G4-model could occur instability because of the extra use of voltage power..
I feel that the G4 is better served at a later date, especially the latest G4s from Motorola having 512KB L2 Cache and over 1Ghz. In the meantime, IBM also have future plans for their G3-series, the new 750GX being one of the first, with 1MB L2 Cache, running from 1.3Ghz and up, and later G3 models will also incorporate the Altivec unit. The G3 will simply become IBMs' answer to Motorolas' G4 series...
The G3XE is simply just a brilliant choice at the moment, and being upgradable also makes this the perfect choice, and the fact that Eyetech will receive the A1G3XE boards by next weeks, simply means we get the boards much faster...not having to wait another couple of weeks to months just to get the G4 model and perhaps getting too much heating problems...Better go for the G3XE instead, and upgrade the CPU later...You save a whole lot...
Just think about it. I for once will get the A1G3XE pretty soon, being perfect for Linux use, and by the way, Mai has finished the latest Linux kernel which should support High Memory above 768MB and having DMA active, even that it's still a little bit jerky...But a whole lot better than previous kernels..
Go for the A1G3XE. You won't regret it... :-)
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Why do I suddenly think of Articia?
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@Helgis
o.....kay... ? :-)
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Helgis:
You still don't have your A1?? :-?
I remember you screaming death and destruction a few weeks ago, cos you didn't have it yet. :-D
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I will get it pretty soon now. Eyetech gets the G3XEs by next week, so around the second week of June i get the board. I'm dumping the G4 model...The current version of G4XE is having too hot a CPU...it could become unstable...and i can always upgrade the G3XE at a later date..no problem there...
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This is why Eyetech at the moment was looking for a suitable deliver of G4 CPU-fans, which means they will receive the A1G4XE boards at still an uncertain date, which could be another couple of weeks...
But I thought that the A1G4XE was shipping in huge quantaties allready (more than 3 times units sold than Pegasos)? Does this mean that the A1G4XE isn't shipping at all? :-o :-o :-o
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KennyR wrote:
Why do I suddenly think of Articia?
Same here! ;-)
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>Does this mean that the A1G4XE isn't shipping at
>all?
It was (for a short period of time). They found a heat
problem which needs some changes to the G4 that's
why the next AmigaOne XE G4s will ship in around
6 weeks (July).
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>so around the second week of June i get the
>board.
Well in that case (if you only get your G3 in June)
then I would wait two more weeks and get the G4 in
July when the heat problem is supposed to be fixed.
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@Helgis
I have done exactly the same, changed for the G3-XE.
The reason I originally went for the G4 was the clockspeed. This was when the G3-XE was annouced as being 700Mhz. Now it ships at the same clock speed at the G4 version.
I'll be changing to one of the dual CPU boards later. But in the meantime I think the G3 is more than adequate.
Don't forget that some users have got A1-XE(750FX) overclocked to 933Mhz. :-P :-P :-D
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Well in that case (if you only get your G3 in June)
then I would wait two more weeks
"Just wait another " ... nah, I'll spare you the sarcasm ... ;-)
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Is it really a G4 overheating problem holding things up? It's not as if it's a flipping AthlonXP-catches-fire-without-a-fan (really!) sort of chip, is it?
I've seen passively cooled G4 macs (copper flower heatsink)...
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Hello,
> Is it really a G4 overheating problem holding things up?
Yes.
> I've seen passively cooled G4 macs
So have I, The ones I`ve seen have a huge heatsink on them. The A1G4 has (in my opinion) a tiny VGA heatsink and fan. It`s fine here in the UK, but aparently some people in warmer countries had stability problems.
Regards,
Frank,
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OK. So let me get this straight. I should buy an A1G3XE 800Mhz and not the A1G4XE 800Mhz because it's slower or less powerful?
I'm confused! Or are you saying that the full advantage of the G4 is not used becasue of lack of support for that processor? Surely it would be better going for the G4?
If it's down to power and heat then that should not be a problem. I have two PC's here which I can guarentee get a lot bloomin hotter! I'm well used to having 4-10 fans inside a tower. As for PSU's 300W should be ample and if not get a 400w or more.
If there is no advantage with getting the G4 over the G3 then I would also suggest that the G3 would be a better choice and then upgrade. However, with the price difference I would still go for the G4 even if it was only marginally faster.
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@ Helgis75
Even if altivec support wasn't mentioned (it was, btw) in the OS4 featurelist, that would be an incredibly short-sighted attitude. If an OS doesn't take advantage of a significantly performance-enhancing architecture in one revision, you can be quite certain it will do, as soon as possible (ie. a patch for the operating system at a later date).
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Is it really a G4 overheating problem holding things up?
Well, I won't try to force my opinion on anyone (because it might be wrong, for one thing), but look what the problems the Pegasos-1 had with Articia. G4s became pointless before the April fix because they were a hell of random crashes, thanks to Articia. The description of the A1G4XE's problems are eerily similar.
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Hello,
> G4s became pointless before the April fix because they were a hell of random crashes, thanks to Articia. The description of the A1G4XE's problems are eerily similar.
Well, how come mine works?
Regards,
Frank.
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Well, I won't try to force my opinion on anyone (because it might be wrong, for one thing), but look what the problems the Pegasos-1 had with Articia. G4s became pointless before the April fix because they were a hell of random crashes, thanks to Articia. The description of the A1G4XE's problems are eerily similar.
Well, I have an A1G4XE, and it is running just fine...
Though I am thinking of exchanging the cooler with the cooler I had on my SE + a zalman fan to blow some air over it (the Zalman model that's being mounted via the screws from pci/agp slots) - just to make sure that I don't run in to any heat problems (since it's getting hotter here in DK).
The current problems (DMA etc) are actually due to the VIA chip (and apparantly VIA are hard to get ahold of).
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1. VIA is surely not working to solve these "issue(s)"
2. the VIA bugs are well documented and the well
known "4in1" patch has just to be adopted to U-Boot,
strange that Hyperion didnt suceed to do this
the whole last year (before starting to sell
those machines)
3. The A1 G4 overheating problems (only in countries
south of britain ;) has surely nothing to do with
the VIA
btw. my non-aprilized Pegasos was running just fine
too, but not correctly..;-)
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The only reason you have been talked into buying a g3 is because they are non upgradable and nobody wants them eytech have loads of g3,s they phoned to ask if i would change my order because i could have it now rather than wait a few weeks .Dont be conned by what is plain bull to shift a stock of unwanted boards, g3,s are a waste of space non upgradable and a even more out of date .I ordered a g4 and im not having nothing but the g4 as soon as g4s were mentiond i forgot the g3 existed . :-o :-?
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Well, how come mine works?
I honestly don't know. Maybe there is a software patch in the firmware to slow down Articia a little?
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amigamad wrote:
The only reason you have been talked into buying a g3 is because they are non upgradable and nobody wants them eytech have loads of g3,s they phoned to ask if i would change my order because i could have it now rather than wait a few weeks .Dont be conned by what is plain bull to shift a stock of unwanted boards, g3,s are a waste of space non upgradable and a even more out of date .I ordered a g4 and im not having nothing but the g4 as soon as g4s were mentiond i forgot the g3 existed . :-o :-?
I guess that depends upon which version of the G3 you are offered - the SE is non-upgradeable, but the G3XE is the one with the modular design, hence it is upgradeable.
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@amigamad
I think you'll find that the G3's are the XE based ones that CAN be upgraded to the G4.
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The A1G4s are working just fine (one here, now) at
full speed WITH dma and so on, but the cooler that
came with the mobo was crap really, and some of
them weren't even mounted properly (which ofcourse
caused instabilities for some people).
..and the G4's aren't very hot, mine's running at 35-40C
under heavy load, but the G3s are even cooler..
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L8-X: Heh, I know that one. "Gals, feck, liquooor!" :-)
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The G4 is not slower than the G3 without software support. I havn't seen any benchmarks that confirms such.
Something that is pretty significant in this matter is which kind of Articia chip sits on the XE. Anyone care to have a peek? Is it Articia-S, or Articia-Sa?
Also, I would think twice before dumping the G4. The altivec isn't about some minor performance gain. It's some serius sh... ..stuff.
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@L8-X
I think you'll find that the G3's are the XE based ones that CAN be upgraded to the G4.
sorry my mistake :-)
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@amigamad
:-D
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@JetRacer
That question is easy answered:
Articia-S, as the Sa doesn't exist (only 2 (?) revisions of the S.
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Not to rub salt in anyones wounds here but, i'm so glad
i'm waiting for OS4 to be released before picking up the
hardware. :) Ok, some of you are linux freaks and wan't
your system now, so you're getting them now. But even
linux isnt finished yet. Yeah MAI just released a new
kernal but all the SW fixes arent complete. Yay for
open source huh?
Why dosen't Eyetech just go pick up a load of fans
someplace and fly them over personally to get those
boards shipping sooner?
BTW, about the G3 and G4 comparison.. A Honda Civic is
faster than a Ferrari if you discount half the engine.
*cough* *choke* This is only good if you plan on
upgrading to a dual G4 later on. (just mho ofc)
... and i'll still wait till OS4 is released and it's
sitting on the shelf in my local shop.
Ivan
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Ivan: well---that was about a first time i saw any *reason* on this thread anyhow.. What's with these people anyhow? :-?
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Helgis75 wrote:
I will get it pretty soon now. Eyetech gets the G3XEs by next week, so around the second week of June i get the board. I'm dumping the G4 model...The current version of G4XE is having too hot a CPU...it could become unstable...and i can always upgrade the G3XE at a later date..no problem there...
that statement proves you have no knowledge whatsoever
lets see thats why mac has the G4 and left the G3.
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I cant see why they are doing this... most users are able to swap the heatsink/fan themself, and i bet most people would rather do that than to wait even longer... Specially considering they are actually mounting the AmigaONE themself...
And yeah... G4s are icecold compared to a Athlon... or even a p4...
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>I cant see why they are doing this... most users are able to swap the heatsink/fan themself, and i bet most people would rather do that than to wait even longer... Specially considering they are actually mounting the AmigaONE themself...
I don't know about you but i want a working board when i get it. I dont want to have to rebuild it and add new parts. I understand ppl want them now and are anxious, so am i. I almost went in for one of the preorders. Thankfully i didnt. The Pegasos systems had to be swaped back, in some cases twice and now are cancelled with no hope of AmigaOS for it, the A1's have been delayed and delayed and while i don't mind delays so much, i dont like cutting cheques or buying money orders and haveing them float around for weeks at a time.
So... I wait.
>And yeah... G4s are icecold compared to a Athlon... or even a p4...
Agreed. :) You could deep fry chicken on any P4 these days. :)
On the other hand, i wonder how much a P4 saves you in heating costs during the winter months. :)
Ivan
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So what's the big deal with the hot G4 CPU? Can't you get an after-market heat sink & fan? Or perhaps a liquid colling system? If it's just the heat and nothing else, then that shouldn't be a real cause for concern! Hell, even an extra case fan can make a difference!
- Mike
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Anybody see that video at Toms Hardware a while back where they showed P3 / P4 / AthlonXP without cooling? They unclipped heatsink whilst running Quake3 arena...
P3 800MHz : Overheated to in < 10 seconds. Whole system crashed but chip unharmed due to thermistor triggered critical stop.
P4 1GHz : Overheated in < 7 seconds but did not crash. Core speed repeatedly halved until processor was operating under its thermal limit. Game dropped from 180fps to below 5fps :-)
Athlon XP 1600 (actual speed 1.2GHz). Overheated in similar time to P4, system died. Surface of chip blackened around die and blue smoke could be seen. Totally wasted!
Keep an eye on your cooling AthlonXP users!
PPC cooler than x86 in every way that matters ;-)
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Anybody see that video at Toms Hardware a while back where they showed P3 / P4 / AthlonXP without cooling? They unclipped heatsink whilst running Quake3 arena...
i see it how stupid who runs a chip with no cooler and in use an athlon is a tough chip i ran an athlon 1.2 gig with the fan not running on the heatsink and only when it could be smelt of burning did i realise the mistake and this chip still works now .
Athlon XP 1600 (actual speed 1.2GHz
an athlon 1600xp runs at 1.4 gig and athlon users dont need to worry about heat the motherboard has thermall shutdown anyway.I would not touch an intel cpu overpriced and slow despite high mhz. :-?
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an athlon 1600xp runs at 1.4 gig and athlon users dont need to worry about heat the motherboard has thermall shutdown anyway
The thermal shutdown system available on some Athlon motherboards isn't as efficient as the one that is part of the P4 chip. AthlonXP users have had their systems toasted when the heatsink sprang off.
The thermal shutdown system on *some* AthlonXP motherboards can detect a gradual but dangerous increase in temperature, typically caused by a failing/failed CPU fan though. But then, I always found the best system against that was my own ears, as soon as you start hearing a very dodgy noise come from your computer it's time to oil or change the fan :)
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AthlonXP users have had their systems toasted when the heatsink sprang off.
Buy a good quality heatsink thermaltake 9 is what im using my athlon xp 2400 is running at 32 c at idle thats with the fan adjusted to run at 4000 to loud at 5800 max .I would know if mine stopped apart fom the noise of it i could see it through the case window. ;-)
Im using an asus motherboard wich can adjust fan speed depending on heat and load automaticly.
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AthlonXP users have had their systems toasted when the heatsink sprang off.
Buy a good quality heatsink
It's not an issue about good quality heatsinks, it's how well the user clamped it to the socket.
How often does your CPU fan go up to full speed, btw?
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One morning at 6 am i was woken up by a 'police siren' coming from my pc beeper. The heatsink fell of the cpu and the mobo shut it off. both cpu and mobo survived and have been running 24/7 since. It's a via kt 400 epox mobo. 8-)
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'police siren' coming from my pc beeper...........It's a via kt 400 epox mobo
**I know that siren sound,** I have an EpoX bx440 board
Only happens when I push my 600mhz celeron up to the 900mhz clockspeed instead of my usual 750 - 767mhz clockspeeds.
at 900mhz, the CPU climbs way above the normal 38-42C.
The machine runs still, but filesystem corruption will set in.
I have one cpu fan-sink (5400rpm) combo, with no other fans (except psu)