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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Crom00 on November 20, 2006, 01:31:20 PM
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http://www.ps3scene.com/
Fedora Linux on PS3. Pretty cool. The PS3 menu has an "other os" install option. Sony is allowing those that want to install a foreign os to do so....without a modchip.
Instead of waiting for amiga motherboards that may never see the light of day, why not release Amiga OS4 on a mass market supercomputer...the PS3
Morphos is ideal. Hope the powers at be are examining this avenue.
:-D
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Sony said that ps3 is more than a console... So without marketing speech sony ps3 is only a console. And that is what my promblem is with the mainstream consoles. These units is only game machines. You can use them for other things but you will be realize that ps3 is for game. Not for wordprocessing, not for music composing, not for dtp works. Of course some crazy japanese university fellow will surely do for a toast/tea maker for it, but in real life you wouldn't torture your ps3 for such a tasks
In the old days amiga was a good game machine and a personal computer in one. One time you play on it, the other you work on it. That's why i hate consoles: you can't do these on it.
Whoever running os4 on ps3 is funny thing.
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whats the resolution- 640x480??
:-(
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Too bad you cannot use the 3d accelration under linux or any other third party OS.
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Tomas wrote:
Too bad you cannot use the 3d accelration under linux or any other third party OS.
What are you on about? Linux already has 3d acceleration, OpenGL specifically, it has desktop 3d hardware acceleration too, try doing a Google/YouTube search for "Compiz" to see it in action. Or just try installing FedoraCore6 which has it as an option. Alternatively look for anything about GLaux or xgl in Google.
The next releases of Ubuntu are expected to have it enabled by DEFAULT!
If you mean that Linux doesnt have 3D Hardware acceleration then you're just flat out wrong. It'll certainly be available on PS3 just like it was on the PS2 Linux kit!
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orange wrote:
whats the resolution- 640x480??
:-(
The PS3 alows for 480i, 720p and 1080i resolutions so your desktop in Linux would also support that.
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he said "The 3d acceleration" meaning the 3D hardware in the ps3 is unsupported in linux.
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buzz wrote:
he said "The 3d acceleration" meaning the 3D hardware in the ps3 is unsupported in linux.
Ah that's kinda whats confused me. There's nothing i can find about it not supporting the 3D hardware and when they released the Linux kit for the PS2 it supported an OpenGL implementation for the Graphics Synthesizer. I'd be very suprised if they didn't provide access, even if only via libs, for the hardware in the PS3.
Andy
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orange wrote:
whats the resolution- 640x480??
Because it's being output at TV resolution for a capture card. (Now, the question would be, this being Sony, are you limited to displays that can authenticate themselves to the HDMI crapfest even when running Linux?* Not that delaced 1080i or 1080p is bad, but notice the markup on (low-resolution!) DTVs versus "computer" displays with DVI inputs.
...
Now, with everyone I know geared up to line up to buy one or the other console, I put some thought into trying to use either as a workstation. Linux, at least, is already available for both, the CPUs certainly have enough grunt for browsing and all the usual tasks, but there's one thing that sets both the Wii and the PS3 apart from even the A500 or A600:
No RAM expansion.
The consoles have some wonderfully fast RAM installed, but this ranges from something like 64MB on the Wii to 256MB on the PS3 (GPU memory not included). Plenty to boot AmigaOS, at least for now, but more than a little crippling if you intend to deal with modern bloatware or the large datasets that half of anything interesting is starting to require.
I suppose you could solve for this by using a hard drive with a really, really, really ridiculous amount of cache (how many drive interfaces does the PS3 have?), but the fact is that once you're out of main memory you're down to ATA speeds in the best case, and more like USB2.0 or SD throughput in more practical, plug'n'play configurations.
If only some sort of actual 'internal'-grade expansion bus had been reserved (ExpressCard, a sidecar port, anything...), you could conceivably imagine replacing your desktop with one. As it is, even the Genesis and Saturn had more flexibility in that department.
[Obviously you don't want every developer to start requiring a RAM expansion and making the console side of the experience less plug'n'play, but... you didn't see that happen with Sega back then, did you?]
*I'm not really up to speed on how HDMI works when devices actually try to honor the copy-protection^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H HDMI-membership-tax-enforcement aspect of it, but I assume the burden is on the display to prove it's a tax-paid, no-copy-bit honoring output device to the transmitting interface.
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AJCopland wrote:
Ah that's kinda whats confused me. There's nothing i can find about it not supporting the 3D hardware and when they released the Linux kit for the PS2 it supported an OpenGL implementation for the Graphics Synthesizer. I'd be very suprised if they didn't provide access, even if only via libs, for the hardware in the PS3.
I'd guess there's probably even code already written somewhere (internal to Sony, IBM, or whoever's boosting enterprise Linux on Cell), but it hasn't been merged into the official X.org tree or the particular version the Fedora project is packaging there.
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AJCopland wrote:
Tomas wrote:
Too bad you cannot use the 3d accelration under linux or any other third party OS.
What are you on about? Linux already has 3d acceleration, OpenGL specifically, it has desktop 3d hardware acceleration too, try doing a Google/YouTube search for "Compiz" to see it in action.
You obviously misunderstood me completely. I am using linux with hardware acceleration here.. The point is that Sony has blocked any third party OS from 3d acceleration, in the means of stopping people from using linux or other third party oses to pirate games and similar.
You would not get 3d acceleration even if you knew how to write a driver for the gfx chip.
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Too bad Sony doesn't allow direct acccess to the hardware at all. See PS3 Linux kernel overview (http://felter.org/wesley/files/ps3/linux-20061110-docs/LinuxKernelOverview.html)
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You obviously misunderstood me completely. I am using linux with hardware acceleration here.. The point is that Sony has blocked any third party OS from 3d acceleration, in the means of stopping people from using linux or other third party oses to pirate games and similar.
You would not get 3d acceleration even if you knew how to write a driver for the gfx chip.
Yep i totally misunderstood you Tomas, i apologise! Initially I thought you mean't that Linux had no access to 3D Hardware acceleration.
As for the PS3 not allowing access to the hardware, well damn that sucks. I'd hope that an OpenGL layer becomes available eventually, simply because it's so ridiculously simple todo based on their libs. We did something similar at the last place i worked for porting our own libraries to PS3 from PS2/PSP. Ours was an OpenGL "like" internal library but the principles the same.
Andy
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There's nothing i can find about it not supporting the 3D hardware and when they released the Linux kit for the PS2 it supported an OpenGL implementation for the Graphics Synthesizer. I'd be very suprised if they didn't provide access, even if only via libs, for the hardware in the PS3.
Linux kit for PS2 did nothing good. Access to HW was too limited.
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Excuse me if im being mental, but how on earth does stopping direct access to the GPU for hardware 3d, stop people pirating games?
By this do they mean, they dont want people running pirated games on emulators?
im very confused by this....
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Excuse me if im being mental, but how on earth does stopping direct access to the GPU for hardware 3d, stop people pirating games?
They dont want quality games appear without Sony license.
By this do they mean, they dont want people running pirated games on emulators?
Do you think Sony really cares about piracy? You can not boot from CD/DVD on unmodded PS2 unless you have applied copy protection to your disk. Of course there is only one company who can apply this copy protection and they ask money for this + royalties.
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@ Piru
Too bad Sony doesn't allow direct acccess to the hardware at all.
That's a bad news. So they have provided themselves a layer to control what's available for third-party OSes. Thanks for the link by the way.
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i think you'll find Sony do care a lot about piracy but only because it hurts their pockets just as much as 3rd party developers. they care enough to make psp homebrew damn near impossible, f.e. changing firmware every couple of months. don't forget all ps3 games will be licenced and Sony get a proportion of every unit sale. considering Sony will be making a loss on the actual ps3 h/w sales for quite a while, game sales are the only ps3 related profit Sony will see.
and, btw, all this media-hype about ps3 "homebrew" is just smart marketing by Sony. really, who wants to code on a game console via a build of Linux which can't see beyond that crippled Sony hyper-visor layer. zzzzzz. I would rather code my linux pc-box tbh. cant see why people are getting so excited about it really.
"oh, but it _could_ run MorphOS/AOS4!!" - yeh, and so could my x86 ibm-clone with FULL unrestricted h/w access, _if_ they were ported to it. big deal.
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>> crippled Sony hyper-visor layer
I think bypassing the hypervisor is only way this box would ever be interesting for alternate OS hacking. Sony is using the hypervisor as a 'HAL' so that they can modify the hardware builds in the future and older games will still run.
If OS4/AROS/etc. could run on the metal, they would scream, and the co-processors would be a blast to play with for audio/video/image processing, and 256 or 512 Mb RAM would be plenty!
If the *visor could be disabled by hardware modification, the PS3 wouldn't play games anymore, but I for one wouldn't care - I would live to have a $600 3.2GHz Amiga! Hey, I still have the receipt for my $1000 '040 Warp Engine, and it was just an accelerator.
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hardlink wrote:
>> crippled Sony hyper-visor layer
I think bypassing the hypervisor is only way this box would ever be interesting for alternate OS hacking. Sony is using the hypervisor as a 'HAL' so that they can modify the hardware builds in the future and older games will still run.
Having looked into a little bit more now i'm thinking we're actually getting a little ahead of ourselves. Firstly the FC5 version that everyone seems to be seeing running on the PS3 is exactly that, a plain PPC FC5 build that's been patched with the CELL SDk tools.
Secondly, its only the 3rd party "Other OS"s that are unable to access the RSX directly and that dont have driver support, but even on the release above says that situation is only "currently" so could easily change in the future. It dont think it'd ever be an open source driver, but i'd expect a closed binary driver like the Linux nVidia drivers.
I think people should be rightly excited about getting hold of it as several of the SPUs appear to be available as well as the PPC core and that's with a lightly modified linux core.
just my opinion, i personally think that they've really opened it pu like this because their own internally developed tools and libraries are such a massive pain in the arse :-D
Andy
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They dont want quality games appear without Sony license.
I agree.. i think the piracy issue is just an excuse. I also guess they dont want people to emulate older sony consoles, since they want to instead sell the games again.
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[/quote]
I agree.. i think the piracy issue is just an excuse. I also guess they dont want people to emulate older sony consoles, since they want to instead sell the games again.[/quote]
Some greaet points made.
Won't PPC Linux allow us to emaulte the older systems (Amiga, Sega Genesis, Mame?)
I have been able to do a great deal of things with an xbox. Run Linux, run stable Amiga Emulation, Emulate every game system to date, run an XBOX media center, and dvd player that is quite good. All homebrew on an XBOX.
Surely a PS3 using readily availabe Linux alternatives such as Myth TV, Mame, UAE and other PPC linux software can provide some great value. The odds of ayone producing a 3.2 G5 Amiga board with 256 megs are slim to none so for all but the most die hard developer.
A couple of years ago I ran Amithilon on a $600 pc with 512 megs... ran quite well.
I would not run Photoshop on it... I would browse the web, play all my amiga games, mods, email...all under one system connected to a Walmart 37" lcd...
For serious development a MacMall PC or Mac provides better dev tools and value.
It's a good time to be a gamer especially if you're an Amigan.
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Won't PPC Linux allow us to emaulte the older systems (Amiga, Sega Genesis, Mame?)
Yes, that should work fine i think. I think there is already videos on youtube of ps3 running linux+snes emulator.
My guess is that it will be good for emulating anything upto the playstation.
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Floid wrote:
Because it's being output at TV resolution for a capture card. (Now, the question would be, this being Sony, are you limited to displays that can authenticate themselves to the HDMI crapfest even when running Linux?
PS3 Linux Video (http://felter.org/wesley/files/ps3/linux-20061110-docs/PlatformSpecificUtilities.html)
ps3videomode: switch video mode dynamically
This command shows current video settings such as resolution, frame rate, color space, and so on, and switches them dynamically.
usage:
ps3videomode [options]
options:
--help, -h print this message
--video, -v set video mode ID
--full, -f use full screen mode
--dither,-d use dither ON mode
Video mode ID:
0:automode
YUV 60Hz 1:480i 2:480p 3:720p 4:1080i 5:1080p
YUV 50Hz 6:576i 7:576p 8:720p 9:1080i 10:1080p
RGB 60Hz 33:480i 34:480p 35:720p 36:1080i 37:1080p
RGB 50Hz 38:576i 39:576p 40:720p 41:1080i 42:1080p
VESA 11:WXGA 12:SXGA 13:WUXGA
full screen mode:
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Whoo Hoo, thats a real super computer thar. Can't wait to hack the gibson with it's beefy 256mb of ram.
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Is it possibile to connect the PS3 to a common VGA monitor? I mean one with no DVI inputs. I haven't got an HDTV but I would like to be able to hook it up to a normal monitor. It seems that such a cable is not on sale, at least not yet, but would it be possible to somehow make one, if we had the pinouts etc, like in the good old days with the Amiga RGB cables? :-)
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Tomas wrote:
I agree.. i think the piracy issue is just an excuse. I also guess they dont want people to emulate older sony consoles, since they want to instead sell the games again.
:crazy: Why would you have to emulate, or re-buy old games? The PS3 plays most PS1/PS2 games already.
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Why would you have to emulate, or re-buy old games? The PS3 plays most PS1/PS2 games already.
I have heard rumours about them offering downloads of psx similar to how Wii is doing it with n64 games.. With emulator you can play pirated games instead of buying a new..
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Tomas wrote:
Why would you have to emulate, or re-buy old games? The PS3 plays most PS1/PS2 games already.
I have heard rumours about them offering downloads of psx similar to how Wii is doing it with n64 games.. With emulator you can play pirated games instead of buying a new..
There is a rumored download of PS games for PSP, but I haven't heard anything about the PS3.
But, if someone is stupid enough to download a game they already have then that is their problem. Regarding piracy, if they didn't pay in the first place they wouldn't be re-buying anything.
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they care enough to make psp homebrew damn near impossible, f.e. changing firmware every couple of months.
And how exactly does "changing firmware every couple of months" make "homebrew damn near impossible", if I may ask? Those updates aren't installed automatically or anything.
Only problem there used to be was that every new unit had "newest at the time of manufacture" firmware pre-installed (for a while the "homebrew maximum" was 2.0, being the highest version capable of running rather limited homebrew and -more importantly- being downgradeable to v1.5 which is kind of "unofficial standard homebrew version")
Nowadays you can downgrade from much newer versions than 2.0.
What you might say next is "new games require new firmware", which is (kind of) true.
"In the old days" people were hacking iso images of games, replacing files from older 1.5-compatible games. That way you could get an iso image of a game running on 1.5 from memory stick. Nowadays there's this wonderful "anti-piracy tool" called "Dev-hook" that can run newer (upto 2.71, which indeed is "quite new". Additionally many "if version
I recently bought Guilty Gear XX & Judgement from the US (games aren't region coded) and it "requires" 2.71, yet runs just fine on dev-hook. Of course I wouldn't have bought it if it would not work :-)
Of course Sony is trying to prevent new games running on not-really-"upgraded" PSP's (and homebrew-users from buying the said games) but they have been failing in doing that for a long time. Already 1.5 was supposed to be "homebrew-proof", but it most definitely isn't.
It's not that they're not trying to prevent homebrew being ran on PSP, it's that they're totally failing in trying to do that.
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Some benchmark run on PS3: playstation-3-performance (http://www.geekpatrol.ca/2006/11/playstation-3-performance/)
Note that it doesn't make use of SPEs. Also I seriously doubt they have proper compiler for the PPE either (my understanding is that the simplified 970 core in PPE doesn't handle out of order execution well, compiler is supposed to optimize the code for it).
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they care enough to make psp homebrew damn near impossible, f.e. changing firmware every couple of months.
Sorry for keeping on a bit off-topic, but it's generally about Sony, and same kind of things might happen with PS3 aswell :-)
So Sony recently released firmware update 3.0 (and 3.01 the next day, that's just a security upgrade though)
Anyway, straight to the point... It already runs fine on dev-hook (a program that can run firmware updates from memory card without doing the actual update, thus keeping the device fully homebrew capable... Obviously devhook itself is also homebrew :-))
Earlier if you wanted to run homebrew, that's fine. Just don't install the updates (and not use software that requires it)
Since devhook you have access to >95% of games that do require the update (and other stuff, like the web browser aswell)
Obviously Sony will keep on doing new firmware versions trying to make them "homebrew-proof" but they've been trying to do that since the very beginning, and still failed with the latest update.
And taking the worst case scenaro that they eventually will manage to do homebrew-proof firmware and games that will really require the update (You know, the day I and many others will stop buying PSP games) it will still take a long time to:
1)Do such a firmware update (they've tried for over year, and always failed)
2)Manufacture new game discs, that contain the newest update
Thanks to the new devhook update, I now have confidence to order Metal Slug Anthology (the bestest PSP release EVER! to be released soon) - earlier I thought it might be safer to wait for someone elses confirmation that it works.
In the end I could ask again that how exactly Sony is making it nearly impossible to run homebrew on psp? :-)
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anybody actualy try the ps3 as a game system? I hear it's pretty {bleep}in.
Guys if you want to port OS4/MOS to anything, just go to x86 first, becasue that's a good logical base to have.
Yes I know logic is silly and it's more fun to DREAM about running os4 on ps3, for some unknow reason!?
I mean sombody tell me why would it be better to run MOS on ps3 over nice x86 hardware?
It's no wonder so many people think amiga fans are nuts!
(I actualy work for Stony, they are bigger nuts than microsoft when it come to protecting that they think they own-(everything!)-.... you don't WANT to be on that platform)
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The reason one would prefer to run OS4/MOS... Well, actually AROS on the PS3 instead of X86 is that the PS3 has all of one set of hardware. The blessing and curse of x86 is that anyone can make hardware for it, and enough people do that the biggest factor in choosing an OS becomes "can you get drivers".
The blessing of consoles is that the hardware is fixed. Or at least fixed enough that old software can't tell the difference. Right now, if you want to run AROS on x86, you put in the disk, and then check to see what works and what doesn't. With a console, if networks works for me, it will also work for you, because we are assured of having the same network card.
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I mean sombody tell me why would it be better to run MOS on ps3 over nice x86 hardware?
In addition to the mentioned driver issue, one obvious reason is that it's PowerPC based. I know that this might sound a bit weird, but porting an operating system (and significant amount of programs, or do a fast and compatible enough emulator) to a totally different CPU architecture is not really as easy as it might sound. Or if it is, why don't you do something like that yourself? :-)
No, I'm not saying why OS should be ported to PS3, rather answering the all too common question "Why PPC instead of X86"
When it comes to PS3, it's probably better to "wait and see" - we MIGHT get (f.ex.) 3D support, or we might not. Currently it's too restricted environment to be useful for many things. But knowing Sony, it might well stay like that (or rather become even more restricted) BUT knowing what's happened with PSP, it might well be possible to "hack our way" into things that most people nowadays take for granted, such as 3D acceleration.
And in any case, it's not our choice really which hardware platforms certain operating systems run on.