Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: zerostress on October 30, 2006, 02:29:34 PM
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A friend on IRC just copy+pasted the answer he got from Elbox when asking updates about the Dragon. Vapor or bollocks as usual time will tell.
Here it is:
Q - What happened to the Dragon? Why are you so silent about it? Any news?
A - There were some problems with the previous MCF5475 Coldfire versions as they did not work as they should. We finally received first MCF5475 processors in ver.1.3 whose production just started few weeks ago. It seems that now the problems are sorted out and finally everything works correctly. It means that Dragon cards should be available in sale before Christmas.
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At least the name is pretty descriptive: Drag-on :-D
Seriously, it's hard not to be entirely jaded when it comes to amiga HW announcements these days. I really hope they prove the critics wrong on this, but I stopped holding my breath ages ago for this.
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zerostress wrote:
It means that Dragon cards should be available in sale before Christmas.
As usual, they didn't mention which year... :lol:
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Karlos wrote:
At least the name is pretty descriptive: Drag-on :-D
Seriously, it's hard not to be entirely jaded when it comes to amiga HW announcements these days. I really hope they prove the critics wrong on this, but I stopped holding my breath ages ago for this.
Hard not to be? Dude this thing is never going to be released. Ever.
At this point there's been more hardware NOT produced than produced for the Amiga... :roll:
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Colani1200 wrote:
As usual, they didn't mention which year... :lol:
indead :crazy:
from an other point of view, with all these new ppc boards ''coming'' they have to say something them selfs as well...
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I don't buy into the elaborate hoax theory. Elbox have already demonstrated over many years that they can deliver good hardware. Maybe not so good PR!
I've alot of time and admiration for a company that still develop for the Amiga in 2006 when most others have scampered years ago.
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B00tDisk wrote:
At this point there's been more hardware NOT produced than produced for the Amiga... :roll:
There's been more stuff "not produced" than produced for anything, at least given that there's no theoretical upper limit on what can be produced...
There were some problems with the previous MCF5475 Coldfire versions as they did not work as they should
How enigmatic. I assume they mean that it didn't run 680x0 object code without freaky side effects ;-)
If so, I don't suppose the next batch will be any better, either.
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...and after the Dragon comes the Shark? :-D
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Close, after OS4 comes the Shark! :-D
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But... OS5 comes before OS4; what does that mean for Shark? :-o :-D
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Tahoe wrote:
But... OS5 comes before OS4; what does that mean for Shark? :-o :-D
arghh..how will this end? :crazy: :lol:
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Yaay Elbox !!
AAAAgghhhh reality just caught up with me, I need a :pint:
Mmmmm, now where was I ? Ah yes, Elbox ;-)
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AMIGAZ wrote:
arghh..how will this end? :-o :-D
with the 2nd coming of Jesus ofcourse. He will have OS6 with him.
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:lol: :lol:
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keropi wrote:
with the 2nd coming of Jesus ofcourse. He will have OS6 with him.
A lentil eating,long haired, sandal wearing do-gooder not using a Mac? :-o
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Doobrey wrote:
A lentil eating,long haired, sandal wearing do-gooder not using a Mac? :-o
Doobrey, the politically correct term would be 'hippie'. :-P
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erm...
I have the same response for E***, Dragon comes near Christmas (no, they don't say the year, or if Jesus or Santa in person will bring it).
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There is a rumour that the Elbox Dragon is today being demoed at Amizaduszki in Krakov.
Since my Polish is rather limited, could some Polish forum user please translate the rumours/news from ppa.pl?
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It's not a rumour it's a FACT.
My friend Drako called me today from Krakow and told me that Dragon REALLY exists and it works and it's tangible.
It's a fantastic news. Please do visit ppa.pl because there should be some pictures and a film from presentation.
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It's a fantastic news. Please do visit ppa.pl because there should be some pictures and a film from presentation.
Wow, indeed great news. Can't wait to see that film with a -working- version of the Dragon.
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There are some first pictures from Amizaduszki in Krakow.
Please visit ppa.pl forum.
:)
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http://tdolphin.org/amikrak/amizaduszki2006.php
:-D
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Great! thanks :-)
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Very nice
Looks like it exists and breathes, you can't say that about the server that hosts the pics....it's sloooow :ranting:
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Did you see it working, or did they only show you the Hardware?
Too bad it won't fit into my A1200's trap door slot... :-( Maybe they change their mind and will produce one if demand is there.
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Another update considering Amizaduszki in Krakow:
Please do check:
http://ds5.agh.edu.pl/~marcik/amizaduszki/movies/
quite a lot of movies about this and that :-)
If you want further info check also: www.ppa.pl
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Ouch, smallest movie is 11MB
Oh well, I haven't got broadband for nothing, now have I? :lol:
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McVenco wrote:
Ouch, smallest movie is 11MB
Oh well, I haven't got broadband for nothing, now have I? :lol:
Yeah, don't let it grow moss on your broadband modem :-P
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@all
Source Post#6:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21235&forum=16
Well, board is real for sure now nobady can deny that!?
There was to Dragon boards on the meeting. Firs installed into A1200 runs OS3.9 and plays dvd and the second separately lying around to let the people touch it.
Compatibility with classic is second question....
68k compatibility is 100%. Only non-DOS stuff (mostly games) woun't work.
Other thread on topic:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21236&forum=25
#6
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@ Karlos
How enigmatic. I assume they mean that it didn't run 680x0 object code without freaky side effects
It's not about 68k emulation at all.
Those problems reported many Linux developars that use Coldfire under Linux on another hardware platforms. Completely not related to Amigas.
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@r-tea
The incompatibilities between 680x0 object code and the coldfire are well documented, including some opcodes that are implemented but slightly differently to their genuine 680x0 counterparts. It would be interesting to see how this issue is solved, or even if in fact it was enough of an issue in the first place to be a problem.
Any idea when these things will be on sale ?
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Looks like it exists and breathes, you can't say that about the server that hosts the pics....it's sloooow
I agree the thumbnail index site is exactly that, but if you click on the thumbnail boxes (mostly had red x, only displayed three pictures after an hour) the individual pictures are downloaded quite speedily, especially using a tabbed browser. Of course with no sub-titles and the movies being in polish, it's hard to tell exactly what's happening except that they _are_ demoing a dragon board. Can any polish speakers give us a translation of what exactly went on? :-o
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Have not seen the Video's but from the things i gathered in different Threads:
Dragon is working and was running OS 3.9.
I would like to know:
1. How compatible is it to 68k Software.
2. Is FPU and MMU working? As far as i know the Coldfire V4e can emulate an 68k but without MMU and FPU - so did they activate the emulator, or patch the OS (maybe patching was not necessary)?
3. I know it's cool that this thing is working, but any geek porn (Benchmarks) out there?
Bye
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Well, I saw the pictures too... What can I say? These are the best news in years!
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Well, I saw these movies too... What can I say? These are the best proof in public of Elbox using a pirated or cracked version of Poseidon 3.x.
I wonder why he flushed away the log messages in Trident so quickly...
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Dude, get over it.
Seriously ... :madashell:
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Hmm, so he should "get over it" the fact that a certain company is stopping at nothing to protect their SW, but has no problem advocating/helping pirating his SW ???
No wonder "Amiga" is such a moral tar-pit these days :-(
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@kronos
Well if that are the facts het should get a laywer and not write replies on amiga-news and amiga.org
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Smaller XVid movies:
http://dahoo.untergrund.net/other/az_xvid/
More pictures:
PPA (http://www.ppa.pl/graffiti/index.php?kategoria=63&podkategoria=189)
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Well if that are the facts het should get a laywer and not write replies on amiga-news and amiga.org
...and amigaworld.net.
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> Well if that are the facts het should get a laywer and not write replies on amiga-news and amiga.org
Why is it Amiga users are so particularily fond of people wasting money on laywers and fighting never-ending law suits? A really good idea indeed.
Sure, I guess /you/ would start a legal battle over 38 EUR?
In the end, the user decides what is morally acceptable for a company to do (no matter if this is Amiga Inc., Eyetech, Genesi or in this case, Elbox).
Go ahead if you'd rather condone this, but there is still freedom of speech and I will not keep my mouth shut about these illegal activities.
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"Great" support for one of our few remaining key component coders... :-(
So if someone seems to be pirating software, especially such an important one, but the remaining Amiga "market" for this product wouldn't justify all the hassle to pay a lawyer for an international law-suit, then it shouldn't even be allowed to publically mention one's well-reasoned suspicion?
Hm, being a programmer in the Amiga "community" these days seems to really be fun.
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@platon
I would'nt spam in this forum either or other forums either(remember mediator mailinglist), if it is only 38 euro.
Just open an new topic IMHO.
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The power consumption of Coldfire MCF5475 is less than 2 watts.
ACK had mentioned about some sort of I/O board that enable classic Amiga accelerator to be used as stand alone computer.
Perhaps ACK or Elbox can create a similar I/O board with FPGA (Minimig) or Clone-A for Elbox Dragon.
Perhaps they can create PoE (Power Over Ethernet) Linux terminal for running browser, remote terminal, class rom etc. Other possiblity is hand crank portable Linux computer, Amiga/Aros laptops etc.
Is the above idea possible?
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http://dahoo.untergrund.net/other/az_xvid/
Smaller versions of the vid files. Thanks to poster on AW.net
I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if the dragon makes it to market - originally announced for January 2005 release, I had totally given up on it. Now in the "wait and see" camp again, but not banking on it.
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Is the above idea possible?
Ideas are always possible. :-P
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@amigarules2k
Dude, get over it.
what??? Elbox refuses to pay 38Euros to Chris Hodges but they happily charge you a lot of money for Spider, a standard NEC card you could get for 15Euros. With 2 Spider sold they could pay Chris Hodges, but it seems Elbox prefers piracy.
I guess that if somebody posted here how to pirate Spider it would be OK for you too.
Can't you understand why Chris Hodges is angry about Elbox? If Chris Hodges hadn't written Poseidon, Elbox could have not made USB for Mediator real.
Pathethic behaviour from Elbox, a company that likes piracy (this is a fact since they are *pirating* poseidon).
The screwed CGX team, they screwed P96 team, they screwed Chris Hodges, they screwed their own users with code that could wipe their RDBs and there are users defending them.
I simply can't understand why users defend a pirate company and ask honest developers like Chris Hodges to shut up!
BTW, My 060 runs circles around the machine shown in the videos in terms of speed. Just look how slow is that "Dragon" displaying icons.
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Crumb wrote:
BTW, My 060 runs circles around the machine shown in the videos in terms of speed. Just look how slow is that "Dragon" displaying icons.
I'ld say it's rather a problem of the filesystem or the IDE/SCSI driver used.
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Whilst I am not trying to advocate or condemn Elbox's behaviour over poseidon (or P96 for that matter) I have to point out that there is no evidence to show Elbox has pirated anything.
From watching the vids - yes, there is a usb memory stick, and poseidon is running but so what? They could:
1) Just be using poseidon as a demo version for the limited time.
2) Have 'bought' poseidon second hand (which is clearly allowed in the poseidon license agreement)
I admit both are unlikely, most likely is that they have bought a license under a non-business name.
From the vid I cannot tell which version of Poseidon they are using, or what they are using it for. The DVD appears to be playing through the TV card in the dragon (is anyone actually trying to suggest that the DVD is operating through a USB DVD player :roll:). I can't actully see what they are using the poseidon stack for.
As I said, not advocating anyone here, but I see NO EVIDENCE to prove piracy - perhaps enough to suspect in private, but certainly not enough to accuse of in a public forum.
Also, even if they would require a business license (not sure if Chris licenses Poseidon differently to businesses) they could legitimately claim that the dragon is being demo'd by Elbox (business) on a private user's system - thus all software installed on the Amiga system would only require a private user license.
Kudos to Elbox for getting this far with the Dragon - far further than I thought they would. Would like to see them get it to market. That's what this thread is - after all - about.
Strange they haven't updated their website since 1st August though..
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If Platon is right and that's a pirated version (who'd know better than he?), Elbox should be bombarded with emails to register Poseidon. Platon really bailed them out by letting Spider users register; he didn't have to. The last thing this market needs is another Miami Deluxe fiasco, where pirating so discouraged the developer he up and left the platform entirely.
Kudos to Elbox for making the Dragon work, but they really need to start cooperating with the other developers out there for this platform. They seem to be the new 'leading edge' Phase 5 of the market; let's hope the desperation of users for new hardware doesn't go to their heads and they keep everything 'above board'.
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@platon42
Dude, you deserve to get paid for your work where you've chosen to charge for it so contact Elbox, point out that you can see that they're using it and ask them whether they've paid for it via a non-Elbox name i.e: their own perhaps? Or if they haven't then would they mind paying you for your work. Point out to them that it's visible in the video etc.
@everyone
This doesn't seem to be the right place to be discussing the legal pro's and con's so how about keeping it reasonably near the topic?
/off-topic
As for the board, it's nice to see that they've got working hardware running real Amiga software just as they've said they would (though how late?). It's also nice to see that they've overcome any/enough problems associated with the ColdFire 68k emulation to do so.
I just hope this means that one day there will actually be a hardware release!
Andy
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It seems some in this community have very short memory.
refresh here (http://www.platon42.de/soapopera.html)
More:
Security warning: Elbox' usb.device contains RDB trashing code (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1036967791&category=forum)
Security warning: Elbox' pci.library also contains RDB trashing code (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1037284738&category=news)
Will Dealers still be stocking Elbox Products? (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1037674728&category=forum)
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Piru wrote:
It seems some in this community have very short memory.
refresh here (http://www.platon42.de/soapopera.html)
All I see is Elbox trying to protect the interests of their customers by trying to secure a good price for the stack (and protection against price rises) and and assurance that keyfiles would be easily available and remain that way.
As always, whenever someone dares to actually produce some hardware for the community then the same old faces appear to slag it off and drive them away. No wonder the Amiga is dead. Well done - slap yourself on the back and congratulate yourself on a job well done.
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Well... I guess this is some serious good news for Classic Amiga. I do hope the Dragon finally reaches the public. There must be a market for it. I mean, people on eBay are paying huge amounts of money (200+ euro on a PicassoIV) on 15 year old hardware just to give their Amiga that little extra power. I'd love to have a quicker 68k-ish processor in my A4000 but they simply are unavailable or way overpriced. So, Elbox, release the board, put a nice price-tag on it and sell it.
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All I see is Elbox trying to protect the interests of their customers by trying to secure a good price for the stack (and protection against price rises) and and assurance that keyfiles would be easily available and remain that way.
LOL
As always, whenever someone dares to actually produce some hardware for the community then the same old faces appear to slag it off and drive them away. No wonder the Amiga is dead. Well done - slap yourself on the back and congratulate yourself on a job well done.
Please slap yourself and get education.
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itix wrote:
LOL
Not "educated" enough to counter my statement?
Please slap yourself and get education.
Well, as you're not big enough to do it to me yourself... :roll:
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Pologne is now part of Europe, so european laws would be applied and B.S.A. can check that quickly... :rtfm:
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Pologne is now part of Europe
Poland is a part of Europe since 10-th century... You probably have messed it with being a member of European Union. :-D
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@Piru
Security warning: Elbox' pci.library also contains RDB trashing code
That concerns a very old version of pci.library; pre-5.0. Current version is 6.2. Same is true with usb.device. Also, problem described can be avoided by using SFS or PFS instead of standard FFS. I've not had any problems with mediator's drivers. Elbox's code is safe, as is their hardware.
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@ Platon42
Sure, I guess /you/ would start a legal battle over 38 EUR?
Is this only about this single 38EUR licence fee?
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That concerns a very old version of pci.library; pre-5.0. Current version is 6.2.
Current version is 6.5 from December 2004 (http://www.elbox.com/downloads_mediator.html)
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Good lord, if it will stop the brewing civil war, I'll[/b] pay the 38eur myself. Anyone else care to chip in? :)
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@stopthegop
That concerns a very old version of pci.library; pre-5.0.
No it doesn't. 5.x versions had the code aswell, at least version 5.6.
Current version is 6.2.
The RDB trashing code was removed soon after the revelation. Elbox never acknowledged its existance. Other than removing the code from the drivers, of course... [EDIT] They did ack it later, calling it "anti-piracy measure", and claimed it was pointless to have it anymore [/EDIT]
Also, problem described can be avoided by using SFS or PFS instead of standard FFS.
Eh how? The type of the filesystem has nothing to do with it.
Elbox's code is safe
If you're happy with possibility of having RDB erasing code in your drivers, sure, why not. Such code is illegal in EU, however. While Elbox continues to crypt their drivers, it's impossible to tell if such code will be put back at some point.
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finally someone have new hardware for the amiga, after all this vapor crap that have been shown month after month. thank you elbox... you guys deliver the magic!!!
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
________
Blowjob Movies (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/13/blowjob/videos/1)
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If you're happy with possibility of having RDB erasing code in your drivers, sure, why not. Such code is illegal in EU, however. While Elbox continues to crypt their drivers, it's impossible to tell if such code will be put back at some point.
Has this actually happened to anyone? If its as nefarious as it is described then someone by now would have triggered it..
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@stopthegop
Has this actually happened to anyone?
My understanding is that it has. To be fair, I have no first hand confirmation of that however.
I can't remember exactly what the conditions required for the trigger were, but IIRC there was a random element to it: sometimes it would not trigger. Also, while it was claimed the code would not trigger itself normally, how about say memory error togging one bit? That would be enough to make the code detect "modification", and wipe RDB of the hard disk containing SYS:.
Now, while this is theoretical, how would you know what caused your HDD to lose all data?
The code itself indeed is capable of erasing the RDB, and there is NO reason whatsoever to put something like that in your drivers. Even if you would only target "hackers" there is always possibility it will trigger for innocent users.
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As I see it:
Elbox seem to almost be two companies. One that makes hardware and one that makes pretty nasty software.
The former side of the company is to be applauded. It was presumably no minor job getting a coldfire based system up and running and I can't deny I'd like one, thanks very much ;-)
The arm that sees fit to make drivers that can beast your hard drive deserve to be lambasted for it. It's completely immoral to have such a devious device. On any other system it would be classed as malware.
To all those thinking that such things are fair game, see how you would feel about it if a malfuncitoning hack or patch trashed some bit of "other" memory that in turn made the drivers think whatever condition they need to trash your RDB has been met.
OS 3.x does not have any memory protection and given the surfeit of hacks and patches out there, this is not as unrealistic as it sounds. Possibly it has already happened and the victim was not even aware of what actually caused it.
Seriously, having such code is reprehensible.
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How many programmers does elbox employ? Is it possible this was the work of a rogue employee - since dismissed? I don't think an "inside job" is outside the realm of possibility. It would not be the first time that has happened.
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@stopthegop
They later claimed it was their anti-piracy measure, so I doubt it. Also they mention this as the reason for removing it:
Our fully legal anti-piracy safeguard lost its purpose when information about it was spread among crackers
Fully legal... Yeah right.
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Piru wrote:
@stopthegop
They later claimed it was their anti-piracy measure, so I doubt it.
Pure speculation on my part but it isn't beyond the realms of possibility that this could have been badly managed "damage limitation". If so, I think it would have done them a lot less harm to say "we had a rogue developer that has since been disciplined|sacked|whatever and future drivers are guarenteed free from malicious code".
However, to all intents and purposes, they look as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of gently steaming poo.
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They later claimed it was their anti-piracy measure, so I doubt it.
Corporations are like politicians in how they respond to damaging news. They respond with whatever explanation seems, at the time, like the one that will make the questions go away. Under such circumstances, I can see where they would take a defensive, almost reactionary position. Heck, just by virtue of being an Amiga hardware developer, they are probably used to being quick on the defensive to almost any question, let alone one concerning allegations of malicious software. The "we did it to protect our product from criminals" excuse probably just seemed better than "We did it because we accidently hired a criminal". I just find it hard to believe that a company like Elbox could, if it chose, make a lot more money in the greener pastures of the x86 world, but instead chose to support a much smaller but dedicated Amiga market, largely on the basis of virtue. It certainly wasn't for market share, stock price, or 7-figure profit margins. It just doesn't make sense that this company has a bi-polar evil twin who laces its charity with poison.
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@stopthegop
I'm not sure your scenario makes Elbox look any better, really.
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Has anyone else remembered that Berkely Softworks first release of GEOS for the Commodore 64 would erase its install/key disk if the software "thought" it was a pirated copy. Many people found the setup instructions confusing,and the pirates cracked it anyway.
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@Piru
If this "trashing" routine were triggered would it physically ruin the drive such that it could never be used again? Or does it trash the file structure (thus data) on the drive, but where I could still partition and reformat the drive?
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Errr....can someone fill in us Amiga users who are not fully acquanted with the whole Dragon project?
The web page I found says it is only for the A1200, but a poster here talks about being disappointed it will not work with his A1200 clock port....and another is talking about how he'd like to get it for his A4000....
What kind of Amiga is it going to be for?
Can anyone provide an overview in a few sentences?
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@stopthegop
If this "trashing" routine were triggered would it physically ruin the drive such that it could never be used again?
That's not possible.
It's irrelevant anyway. What is important is the user data that is seemingly lost. For user it appears as the disk was totally wiped clean (no partitions at all). The disk would appear as uninitialized and HDToolBox would suggest initializing it when selected. Unless if you're an expert there's little you could do. Even if you're an expert, restoring the RDB without existing backup is very tricky.
Or does it trash the file structure (thus data) on the drive, but where I could still partition and reformat the drive?
You could still partition and reformat. But data is much more valuable than the actual drive.
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Thats what I thought. About a month ago I had a disk fail rather dramatically. I just wanted to make sure it died of natural causes. Or to make sure software, as you said, is "irrelevant" in this case. As it apparently is..
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@Piru
>>>Also, problem described can be avoided by using SFS or >>>PFS instead of standard FFS.
>Eh how? The type of the filesystem has nothing to do with >it.
Nothing, doesn't SFS and PFS has better performance then FFS ? Specially on reading small files, like .info, and caching ?
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@Bennymee
Ah, problems referred to the performance problems. Anyway, is there reason to believe they used FFS? If they did, is there any particular reason to use it (it does have worse performance indeed)?
It'd be rather silly to slow down the demo machine with slow filesystem.
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@thread
It seems that Darek responded to Chris Hodges piracy claims on PPA.PL (http://www.ppa.pl/forum_ppa/read.php?f=7&i=2280&t=2272&ostatnie=1#reply_2275).
Can somebody translate?
edit: For what it's worth (automatic translation, don't draw too many conclusions from it) ;-)
"Certainly it walks about no 38 here EUR. It walks about it, that when somebody makes something on market more Amigi than foreshadows only, immediately it becomes public enemy for some number 1. It was satisfied from agreement about cooperation with very Chris Hodges Elboksem, but only till the moment, when as it happens, that it will not process lat (summer; year) for his pile by several Elbox sterowników, it has been made in only weeks few couple. Probably, it counted on it Hodges, that agreement will boost interest of his with pile Elboksem - as for standard USB Amigi - but it will not be for its (his) producing friend of card kart for simultaneously long competition USB Zorro. When we have received developer documentation, we were returned for about sale of license for key Hodgesa Elboksu. Then it has suggested us for our firm free keys Hodges. After several months, when it irritated in mediator too very 2.0 already USB Hodgesa, aggression has achieved him respect of our firm such level, that in one of next update it key zdezaktywował. It IS INCORPORATED on computer presented on on surname of permanent employee installed Posejdon Amizaduszkach Elboksu. This registration has been carried through FIXIT POINT PPA. This person is not amigowcem, does not have ( and never had in house ) Amigi and this registration is taken advantage only and for brand application exclusively. I salute, cream Darek ELBOX COMPUTER"
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Man, software translators have a long way to go... That almost hurt reading, it was so disjointed. My guess is they're saying Poseidan was registered privately by an employee but there is a dispute over the amount paid? Dunno, thats only a guess.
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That almost hurt reading, it was so disjointed.
I agree... :lol:
Just in case somebody here speaks German, there is a German translation (non-machine) on Amiga-news.de by Valwit:
"Es geht hier nicht um 38 EUR (anspielung auf erstes posting - anm. V.) es geht darum dass wenn man auf dem amigamarkt etwas mehr macht als nur ankündigungen man sofort zum staatsfeind nummer 1 wird. chris hodges war sehr zufrieden mit dem abkommen mit elbox, aber nur bis zu dem moment als sich herausstellte dass elbox die nötigen treiber nicht jahrelang entwickeln wird, sondern es innerhalb weniger wochen machte, hodges zählte wohl darauf, dass das abkommen mit elbox das interesse an seinem usb-stack erhöht - als usb standard für den amiga - und gleichzeitig es lange zeit keine konkurenz geben wird für seinen freund der usb-karten für die zorro slots baut.
als wir die developer dokumentation erhielten, wandten wir uns an hodges wegen der verkaufes von lizenzen (keys) für elbox. daraufhin bot uns hodges kostenlose keys für unsere firma an. nach ein paar monaten als usb 2.0 in mediator hodges zu sehr störte, erreichte seine agression gegenüber unserer firma einen derartigen stand, dass er in einem der updates die keys deaktivierte.
poseidon, der auf dem rechner instaliert ist, der auf amizaduszki vorgeführt wurde IST REGISTRIERT auf den namen eines festangestellten mitarbeiters von elbox. die registrierung wurde durch den registrationspunkt von ppa durchgeführt. der mitarbeiter ist kein amiga-user, hat (und hatte nie) keinen amiga zu hause und die regiestrierung wird ausschliesslich in der firma verwendet.
grüsse
Darek Smietana
ELBOX COMPUTER"
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The German translation indicates that one of Elbox's employees or contractor's owns the licensed version of Poseidon that was shown at the Amizadzuki show. It also references the problem between Elbox and Poseidon's author; that originally the developer information and free keys were given to Elbox, but later updates received from Posideon's author deactivated the keys (presumably to market protect the USB Amiga market for E3B because Elbox was making USB 2.0 compliant cards). So sounds like some kind of misunderstanding between developers. Just great.
btw, I thought it funny that the polish translation ended with by translating Darek Smietana's last name as 'cream', which is what it means in Polish.
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User Valwit in german forums translated the post from polish? (i mean the language spoken in poland) to german. I won't bother translating all, because then i had to also post the other point of view too... never ending story...
First Darek Smietana says that it is not about 38€ but about some diffrences between Chris Hodges+E3B with Elbox (Note: Thats Elbox point of view). bla bla - Thats the part with the 38€.
He also states that Poseidon is registered to an employee of elbox, who (bought/got) it through ppa.pl. The employee is no Amiga user, and never had one. He only bought it for Elbox the company. Thats the licence they used at the demonstration.
So that's the short form of it. I tried to get this posted "neutral" so that Chris Hodges does not have to reply to the insults from Darek Smietana here.
Bye
Edit:
Seems that other people can type faster than i.
Edit 2:
As the german text is here and others have translated this for themselves... and got the meaning out of the german text as intended by Elbox: There is a reaction from E3B on german forums, and they have a slightly other point of view. The main (one of the main) problem(s) seems to be Elbox selling a 10€ NEC USB Card for 50 € saying it works (ships) with Poseidon, but not mentioning that Poseidon is not part of the package -> And then People complainig to Chris Hodges because they have to pay for Poseidon.
So you see why i originally wanted to leave this out.... i think we should leave the rest to E-Mails between Elbox, E3B and Chris Hodges.
Bye
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It's always nice to see some new hardware so I welcome the Dragon, however as a Mediator owner I too am weary of Elbox.
With regards to the whole Poseidon adventure, if you read Planton42s page of email correspondence you'll see it's quite clear Elbox intended to rear-end him from the start. I gather it was something similar with the whole P96 thing?
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Doobrey wrote:
keropi wrote:
with the 2nd coming of Jesus ofcourse. He will have OS6 with him.
A lentil eating,long haired, sandal wearing do-gooder not using a Mac? :-o
MacOS 6 ;-)
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Elbox are just a bunch of *************. Plainly. Their drivers are {bleep} and steal the user's freedom. If you bought a hardware second hand, and uses a driver form a mate, it will screw your disk. Why? Hasn't having the hardware legitimates you to use the driver?.
Hope my english is understandable.
From my own experience, i use openpci drivers instead of the crappy mediator ones.
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From my own experience, i use openpci drivers instead of the crappy mediator ones.
For Mediator? I thought that one was "canceled"?
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@ Donar
First Darek Smietana says that it is not about 38¤ but about some diffrences between Chris Hodges+E3B with Elbox (Note: Thats Elbox point of view). bla bla - Thats the part with the 38¤.
I'll try to translate the remaining part of that one with 38EUR which Donar have left untranslated.
Cite: "Chris Hodges was satisfied with the contract with Elbox, but only till the time when it turned out that Elbox developed their drivers for Poseidon much faster than he expected. It tooks a few weeks, not years.
Probably Hodges counted on growing up of the interest of Poseidon as the standard for Amiga and in the mean time to have no competitor for E3B products for a long time."
This is instead of Donar's "bla bla" :)
I did my best trying to translate strictly as it is, as far as my lame english lets me do.
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"Chris Hodges was satisfied with the contract with Elbox, but only till the time when it turned out that Elbox developed their drivers for Poseidon much faster than he expected. It tooks a few weeks, not years.
Probably Hodges counted on growing up of the interest of Poseidon as the standard for Amiga and in the mean time to have no competitor for E3B products for a long time."
Never heard so much bullsh1t before. As you can read on http://www.platon42.de/soapopera.html yourself, I did not try to fool those people, but rather be as helpful as possible -- before Elbox started going to slag E3B for no reason and started doing there unfair competition (by refusing to mention that Poseidon was NOT included in "their" product).
As for the key thing: Even /if/ somebody working for Elbox registered Poseidon, Elbox clearly states that this person does not even *own* an Amiga. But as the Poseidon licence is personally bound to the machines somebody owns (and here in this case, the licensee does not own one, especially not the Elbox one), installing and using it on a foreign machine is a breach of licence conditions and renderes the licence invalid. If the user registered it in the name of Elbox, he didn't specify this information in the reg form. Anyway, only one PPA registered user ever upgraded their key to Poseidon V3.x, and it was Poseidon V3.x that had been shown by Elbox. And this user /does/ have an Amiga.
But whatever, all this arguing is not going to change the situation a bit. Maybe it's really time to move on.
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This might not be the right thread for whatr I am about to say, and will probably annoy more than one person. That said, please bear in mind that this is no way critical of any party, nor casting blame or aspersion on any party concerned (bar the usual internet posting suspects who only served to inflame a situation)
Regards the Hodges - Elbox dispute, there is a very, very good reason why companies use managers to enter negotiations, rather than technical staff.
They know what they are doing, and they speak the same language.
Simply put, it seperates the commercial aspects of a relationship, from the underlying service/product/technical broohaa. They [probably] neither know nor care about the underlying technical wizardry, but they do know about detail work such as revenue, cost of support, pricing, profit margins, market segments, ie all the commercial apsects. And relationship management; they serve as insulation between [potentialy rival] groups of staff, such as developers who may be unhappy over a decision to include the others' product/service/component over their own.*
And then agree a legally binding written contract defining all aspects of the underlying commercial relationship.
This is important - it superseedes any marketing statements about a companies intentions, culture, history, and so forth.
And to be honest, both sides are trying to get the best deal for their company. The definition of "best" varies, but does not always mean a compromise that neither side is wholly happy with; often, one side will make a short-term concession in the interests of a more attractive longer term relationship (as an example, look at the Marriot Hotel after 9/11, and how they helped one of the major financial players with office room, I can give many more examples).
Chris, reading your soapopera page, I think there were several times when things were "lost in translation": Elbox had commercial expectations, which perhaps you missed, and likewise didn't appreciate that they were negotiating with an individual developer.
Perhaps maybe you realise some of this - *for example at the start you apologise for unprofessional and "..and individual with emotions and not representing a company". This is a prime expample of when using relationship/account managers - who are not connected with the underlying product - insulate the relationship from the emotions of those who are deeply involved at the "coal face", seperating commerce from work, as it were.
I don't think there would be much milage in identifying examples of where the relationship went rocky, but certainly its true to say that
1. Neither party asked enough questions, I suspect due to completely differing reasons.
2.There were too many occasions where effort was spent in recriminations rather than agreeing a course of action to solve an issue.
3. At times, both parties proceeded on assumptions without actually checking those assumptions were valid. In some cases, those assumptions were quite minor to that party, but quite major to the other.
Just my 5cents. Shame really, as had some of the sticking points been identified and dealt with earlier, I think this would have been a beneficial agreement for both Elbox and yourself.
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I think thats a fair analysis.
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@ Platon42
[...]before Elbox started going to slag E3B for no reason and started doing there unfair competition (by refusing to mention that Poseidon was NOT included in "their" product).
Here (http://www.ppa.pl/newsy/komentarze.php?p=55&more=1) in a news on PPA.pl in which is an announcement of Spider USB card. It informs among others that SpiderUSB package contains an unregistered time-limited demo version of Poseidon USB stack.
Cite from PPA.pl
"Pakiet sprzedawany przez Elbox zawiera:
- Kartê Spider USB 2.0
- Sterowniki Mediator OHCI USB zgodne z oprogramowaniem Poseidon
- Niezarejestrowan± ograniczon± czasowo wersjê demo stosu USB - Poseidon."
The package that Elbox sells includes:
- Spider USB2.0 card
- Mediator OHCI USB drivers compatible with Poseidon
- Unregistered, time-limited demo version of Poseidon USB stack
This is 13.09.2002 news - right before Spider got to market.
Here (http://www.elbox.com/news_arch.html) is Elbox's news archive and here (http://www.elbox.com/news_02_09_11B.html) is a news in which Elbox informs about drivers for Poseidon stack:
Cite:
"The unregistered, time-limited version of the Poseidon USB stack will be available in the Mediator Multimedia CD. Registration of the Poseidon stack for Mediator users will be provided by Chris Hodges."
It's from 11 September 2002.
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The web archive also has a copy of that news:
http://web.archive.org/web/20021210195658/elbox.com/news_02_09_11B.html
also: http://web.archive.org/web/20021210223034/elbox.com/news_02_09_12.html
In case someone thinks the archive on Elbox's site is doctored.
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Well done for digging up the truth guys. Hodges' excuse is rather lame and is as likely as someone buying a copy of Lemmings and then complaining to Commodore that there wasn't an Amiga computer in the box because the label says that the game "runs on an Amiga". :-D
Quite frankly, the whole situation sucks. I have 2 Elbox towers and their Flyer Gold IDE interface and they are great bits of kit. From what I gather, Hodges has written an excellent USB stack and it deserves to be supported. However, the only way I am ever likely to purchase Chris' software is if I buy a product from Elbox. I feel safer purchasing a product costing several hundred dollars from a company like Elbox than I do purchasing a license for EUR38 from an individual. It's about time someone came to their senses and realised that bundling a licensed copy of the stack with the hardware direct from Elbox for a reduced (an guaranteed) EUR20 would benefit everyone and fight piracy of the software.
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Since there is some new info (http://www.ppa.pl/index.php?p=4851&more=1) (in polish) available on PPA.pl I've decided to once again ease the life of non-polish-speaking community and translated it. The translation (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=21236&forum=25&start=140&viewmode=flat&order=0#340226) was posted on AW.net.
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@yak
Thanks a lot for the translation! I think you could even quote the full text here instead of only linking to it.
This is much more on-topic (Dragon) than some of the earlier ramblings concernig Poseidon-licenses, the Elbox-e3b/Hodges dispute, etc.
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I think most REASONABLE readers here will agree that both parties in the dispute acted unprofessional and at some points childish and immature. The only part I am concerned about is the malicious code that was found and later removed. Hopefully Elbox learned a lesson from that disaster and will never repeat such actions.
That leaves the buyers of Amiga hardware with two choices, 1. they can choose to forgive and forget that extremely bad choice of actions to put users data in danger and take a chance in purchasing more Elbox hardware and software drivers, or 2. the buyers can decide to never trust Elbox again and show their lack of trust by not buying their products. Vote with your wallets, but please don't try to tell the rest of us how to vote with our own wallets.
Can we please get back on topic with real news regarding the Dragon hardware? :-P
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Can we please get back on topic with real news regarding the Dragon hardware?
Hopefully. :-)
Darek from Elbox gave some remarks on the Dragon presentation in this thread. (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=21236&forum=25&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0#340515)
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@ThEcRoW
If you bought a hardware second hand, and uses a driver form a mate, it will screw your disk.
You've had personal experience of this?