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Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / Science and Technology => Topic started by: golem on October 24, 2006, 12:57:58 PM

Title: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: golem on October 24, 2006, 12:57:58 PM
Theres a programme on Horizon tonight in the UK about AI and it's about the idea that by 2029 computers will equal the power of the human brain. I think this is a pile of ostrich feathers. Computers will never be intelligent they are dumb soulless automatons. Their inability to think is why programming is so goddam hard. These crazy scientists think we may be able to download our brains and live indefinitely. I'm no religious fanatic but yeah right!
What do you guys think?
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Wilse on October 24, 2006, 01:50:19 PM
Meh.... I'll watch it and see. :-)
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: on October 24, 2006, 02:38:54 PM
Quote
Their inability to think is why programming is so goddam hard.


Programming is not hard.


/Yes I know it's a blanket statement that doesn't apply to every situation/person, but then so was your comment.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 24, 2006, 03:54:45 PM
"Intelligent" systems are very rarely programmed. They are trained.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: golem on October 24, 2006, 04:05:57 PM
Quote

Karlos wrote:
"Intelligent" systems are very rarely programmed. They are trained.

True but behind that system of heuristics sits a deterministic algorithm that some logic circuits mindlessly execute.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 24, 2006, 04:12:02 PM
Quote
True but behind that system of heuristics sits a deterministic algorithm that some logic circuits mindlessly execute.


Different from the electrochemical signalling between neurons in what way, exactly?
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: golem on October 24, 2006, 04:22:45 PM
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote
True but behind that system of heuristics sits a deterministic algorithm that some logic circuits mindlessly execute.


Different from the electrochemical signalling between neurons in what way, exactly?


I would like to think different in the way that we can feel them happening in our brains. A heuristic system doesn't feel its logic circuits or anything for that matter. You could counter that feelings are just another type of system I suppose but I would say that makes you alienated. They put people on antipsychotics for thinking they are a robot you know  :-)
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 24, 2006, 04:35:06 PM
Unless you can demonstrate a significant functional difference between natural and artificial self-organising information processing systems, given the latter are modelled on the former, how can you confidently conclude that artifical systems are incapable of these things?

They likey are not be capable at this stage of their development, no more than a worm's cortex is at creating literature. Yet, the same basic neural cells grouped into vastly larger clusters ulitmately are.

Furthermore, there's no reason to assume that future neural net machines will be entirely semiconductor based. Scientists have already demonstrated neural cells from some snail or worm (can't recall which) being used to perform binary addition.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: iamaboringperson on October 24, 2006, 05:34:24 PM
Quote

golem wrote:
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote
True but behind that system of heuristics sits a deterministic algorithm that some logic circuits mindlessly execute.


Different from the electrochemical signalling between neurons in what way, exactly?


I would like to think different in the way that we can feel them happening in our brains. A heuristic system doesn't feel its logic circuits or anything for that matter. You could counter that feelings are just another type of system I suppose but I would say that makes you alienated. They put people on antipsychotics for thinking they are a robot you know  :-)

'feel it's logic circuits'?
Emotions are implemented in the human brain as networks of neurons 'firing' and chemical reactions.

What would make that not possible to emulate in electronics?

You have to remember that all that happens in your mind - you emotions and you thaught - happens through matter. All of those processes can be emulated in synthetic systems.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: blobrana on October 24, 2006, 07:05:00 PM
Hum,
future computers maybe organic rather that say silicon etc.
It would be difficult to say that computers would not add up more than the sum of their parts.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Wilse on October 25, 2006, 01:03:01 AM
Quote

Wilse wrote:
Meh.... I'll watch it and see. :-)


OK, watched it.
Interesting programme but not convinced.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 25, 2006, 01:43:04 AM
Not sure about the timescale but I wouldn't be surprised if a machine passes a full Turing test some day.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Wilse on October 25, 2006, 10:31:30 AM
@Karlos:

Indeed, it's the timescale I have doubts about.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: golem on October 25, 2006, 12:21:40 PM
I thought it was interesting but they didn't really show any computers being intelligent concentrated more on the growing interface between humans and computers. I thought the guy in charge of the quantum computer was "knitting with only one needle"! His laugh was maniac.  
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 25, 2006, 12:25:20 PM
Yeah, he was definately a bit of a twitcher.

However, having studied QM in enough depth to elucidate the strange chemical properties of atoms and molecules I can fully understand why :lol:
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: golem on October 25, 2006, 12:34:44 PM
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Yeah, he was definately a bit of a twitcher.

However, having studied QM in enough depth to elucidate the strange chemical properties of atoms and molecules I can fully understand why :lol:


Are you a chemistry student Karlos?
I once tried to get my head round a populist book on QM but
failed really I think.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Dandy on October 25, 2006, 01:19:01 PM
Quote

nicholas wrote:
Quote

Their inability to think is why programming is so goddam hard.


Programming is not hard.

...

Indeed - it's called software after all...
 ;-)
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 25, 2006, 01:27:11 PM
Quote

golem wrote:
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Yeah, he was definately a bit of a twitcher.

However, having studied QM in enough depth to elucidate the strange chemical properties of atoms and molecules I can fully understand why :lol:


Are you a chemistry student Karlos?
I once tried to get my head round a populist book on QM but
failed really I think.


Yep. I had a real passion for it as an academic subject (still do, in many ways) but towards the end of the first year of my doctorate however, I had developed real misgivings about the industry itself, let alone the prospects for getting a decent R&D job (more and more chemists were being made redundant by brute-force "array" synthesis techniques). Luckily, I had IT skills as a plan B.

IT companies might be just as self serving, but at least people aren't dying waiting for treatments to become profitable enough to be worth making in any quantity.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on October 25, 2006, 10:59:29 PM
'2029' eh? not '2030'?
Typical trash.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 25, 2006, 11:05:43 PM
pah, they used ceil() rather than round()...
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on October 26, 2006, 12:11:29 AM
:lol:

Nah, they preferably would've used a floating point to look as 'scientific' as possible.
Title: Re: AI - a load of tosh?
Post by: Karlos on October 26, 2006, 01:27:15 AM
What, like 2.029x10^3 AD? :-D