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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: BGary335 on October 13, 2006, 11:32:10 PM

Title: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 13, 2006, 11:32:10 PM
I recently purchased an A500 off of EBay. Upon powering it up, I get no lights other than the Caps Lock key, which stays lit continuously, and no video (I'm using an A520 adapter, by the way). However, I can tell a video signal is going to the TV when I switch the computer on, there's just nothing on the screen. I try inserting a floppy, and get nothing from the computer, except a momentary spin of the floppy drive. I tried replacing both the Agnus chip and the Kickstart ROM (in fact, I've tried several of each)but nothing changes. I've noticed that neither the CPU chip nor the Kickstart ROM get even a little warm. The rest of the chips however seem to heat up at least a little.

Any ideas on what the problem might be? I'm thinking maybe its the CPU, butI'm not sure. Any help wouldbe very much appreciated!
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 14, 2006, 10:27:47 PM
Any ideas at all?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Tomas on October 14, 2006, 10:37:29 PM
tried another psu?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: zipper on October 15, 2006, 11:43:22 AM
A firm push to every socketed chip - or remove and reseat, that's the first thing to do.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Speelgoedmannetje on October 15, 2006, 11:59:58 AM
Quote

zipper wrote:
A firm push to every socketed chip - or remove and reseat, that's the first thing to do.
Also, connectors can get a bit rusty, so try to make it clean (I always use a tip of a towel wich is a very tiny bit wet). And also make sure you give the floppy cable a push too.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 16, 2006, 02:29:15 PM
Yes I have tried another PSU, and it made no difference.

Yes I ahve inspected all the chips and connectors, cleaned them, and made sure they were seated properly.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Amiga4k on October 16, 2006, 11:14:34 PM
Un-lock the CapsLock key, and report back. Everything reverts back to an Agnus problem, but you need to un-lock that key first to know anything else.

Is the 68000 hot?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: ajlwalker on October 16, 2006, 11:33:21 PM
@ Amiga4k

I'm sure he means that when he switches on the caps lock light comes on and stays solid.  He isn't pushing the caps lock key.

From memory this is a fault indicator on Amigas, but I have no idea what it means.

I seem to recall it was something to do with the CIA chips but I don't really know.  Anyone?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 01:01:35 AM
@ ajlwalker:

You are correct. I am not pressing it, rather when I switch the system on, it comes on and stays on for about 5 minutes, then goes off. Just seems to me to be longer than it should be. Granted, I haven't used a 500 in 5 or 6 years, but from whatI can remember the Caps Lock light never stayed on that long on boot up.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 03:58:21 AM
Well the problem seems to have worsened. All I get when I power up now is a continuous Cpas lock light and nothing else.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Argus on October 17, 2006, 10:50:11 AM
Did you try swapping the CIA chips and see if it works then?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: DrDekker on October 17, 2006, 12:49:41 PM
Try booting up with the keyboard disconnected - it could be a faulty chip on the keyboard.  Can't remember off hand what it's called, but you'll find it adjacent to the LED's.  Usually a faulty keyboard chip will generate a flashing sequence through the caps lock LED and prevents the Amiga from booting up.  This kind of problem seemed to affect A500+'s more than A500's.  From what I remember, the chip is soldered directly to an A500+ KB and socketed on an A500.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: HellCoder on October 17, 2006, 01:21:42 PM
Did you talk to the sellar about this ?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 02:17:30 PM
@Argus

What are the CIA chips? Sorry but I'm not too familiar with anything other than the Kickstart ROM chip, the CPU, and the Agnus.

@HellCoder

Yes but it was sold as is, and all he'll give me is the same one-liner:Sorry it was sold as is. Not even an attempt at helping. It's that attitude that leads me to believe he was just trying to rip someone off. Yes, the auction did say as-is, but when you give a real nice description of the computer, and include none of the bad stuff, its hard to not buy it. If he would've given some reason for why it was being sold as is (like maybe that it doesn't power up), than I wouldn't have bought it. Unfortunatately, I had to make a decision based on what info he did give, and as you can tell I made the wrong decision.

@DrDekker

I've tried disconnecting the keyboard, but it doesn't seem to have made any difference.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: McVenco on October 17, 2006, 02:28:35 PM
Quote
What are the CIA chips? Sorry but I'm not too familiar with anything other than the Kickstart ROM chip, the CPU, and the Agnus.


They are the 2 chips on the mainboard marked "EVEN CIA" and "ODD CIA". They are quite often the cause of numerous problems.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 03:08:56 PM
I have not swapped those. Right now I don't have any other CIA chips to swap them with.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Damion on October 17, 2006, 03:35:57 PM
Quote

BGary335 wrote:
I have not swapped those. Right now I don't have any other CIA chips to swap them with.


BGary, just try swapping one with the other (they're both the same), and see if there's any difference at all. That way you'll at least know whether or not you're on the right track.

 
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 04:24:15 PM
Ok, did that, and here's where we're at now: When I switch the system on, the Caps Lock light and now the floppy light both come on and stay on continuously. Now I'm even more confused. Why has the floppy light decided to come on? Are we going in the right direction?

Oh, also, there is no video. The screen flashes when I power the system as if its about to send video to the TV but nothing happens.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Damion on October 17, 2006, 04:37:09 PM
Sounds like we're definitely on the right track. If both CIA's were functioning, there wouldn't be any change (unless they happened to be seated improperly, but you checked that).

You can buy these from  Softhut. (http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/hardware/custom_chips/chip_cia.html&cart_id=4289450_35348) If you're lucky, you might find a complete 500 at a local thrift store (Salvation Army can be a good spot) for even less.


Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Erol on October 17, 2006, 04:44:55 PM
When you turn on your Amiga, it has a rather long and complicated set of routines through which it must go before it can allow you to interrupt it.  As the startup process goes along, Amiga is trying to let you know whether all is well.  There has been a small problem with this, however - Commodore forgot to tell us what the signals mean!

Here is a list of the startup-routine activities:

1.  Clear all of the chips of old data.
2.  Disable DMA and interrupts during the test.
3.  Clear the screen.
4.  Check the Hardware (make sure the 68000 is working)
5.  Change the screen color to show whether this test was passed
6.  Do a checksum test on all the ROMS
7.  Change screen color to show if ROMS passed the test
8.  Begin the system startup
9.  Check the Ram at $C0000, and move SYS_BASE there
10. Test all of the chip RAM
11. Change the screen color to show if the RAM passed the test
12. Check to see if software is coming in OK
13. Change the screen color to show if the software test is
passed.
14. Set up the chip ram to receive data.
15. Link the libraries.
16. Check for additional memory and link it in if found
17. Turn the DMA and Interrupts back on.
18. Start a default task.
19.  Check to see if the computer is using a 68010, 68020, and/or
68881.
20.  Check to see if there is an Exception (processor error)
21 If so, do a system reset.

AND THE MESSAGES ARE IN TECHNICOLOR!

As this routine is taking place, the Amiga is sending you
messages with the screen colors.  If all is well, we usually see
this sequence:

Dark gray      The initial hardware tested OK. The 68000 is running and the registers are readable

Light gray     The software is coming in and seems OK

White          The initialization tests were all passed

But if something is wrong with your Amiga, you might see:

Red            If there is an error in ROM
Green          If there is an error in the Chip RAM
Blue           If an error was found in the custom chips
Yellow         If the 68000 found an error before the error      
               trapping software (the guru) was up and running

The most likely of these errors seems to be the error in Chip RAM.  Only this week, I saw an AMIGA 500 flash a brilliant green screen when an expansion RAM board was put in hastily, and did not settle in correctly.  A positioning of the board corrected the problem in that case.  I have not yet seen a red, blue, or yellow screen indicator.


KEYBOARD MESSAGES

The Amiga keyboard is not as dull an object as I had originally thought, either.  It contains a processor of its own - a Rockewell/NCR/MOS Technology 6500/1.  It also has 2K of ROM, 64 bytes of RAM, and four I/O ports of eight bits each.  There is a built-in crystal oscillator running at 3Mh, also.  All but the very earliest of keyboards also have a "watchdog timer" which will reset the keyboard's processor if it stops scanning the
keyboard for more than 50 milliseconds.

It is possible for the computer to be powered up before the
keyboard is plugged in, in which case the keyboard will have to go through its self-test after it is connected to the computer.
Most of us, however, will have the keyboard attached, and the self-test will take place while we are watching the screen, changing disks, etc.

The keyboard self-test consists of four steps.   First it does a checksum on all of the ROMs.  Then it checks the 64 bytes of RAM, and then the timer is tested.  Then the keyboard must achieve proper synchronization with the computer.  It does this by slowly clocking out 1 bits until it receives a handshake pulse from the computer.  Once this pulse is received, the keyboard must inform
the computer of the results of its self-test.  Should the self-test fail, the code for failure can be sent to the computer without waiting for the handshake pulse.  

IN CASE OF FAILURE

After informing the computer that the self-test has failed, the keyboard will then try to notify the user that it is in trouble.
This is done by blinking the CAPS-LOCK light.  Here is the code:

One blink   The keyboard ROM check failed
Two blinks   The keyboard RAM check failed
Three blinks   The watchdog timer test failed
Four blinks   A short exists between two row lines or one of the seven special control keys

The last check had not been implemented at the time my Rom Kernal Manual was printed, but was in the plans.  It would be unusual for the user to have typed anything during this self-check time, but if any keys have been depressed, the codes for those keys would then be sent to the computer, a "terminate key stream" code would be sent, and then the CAPS LOCK LED shut off, indicating the end of the keyboard startup sequence.  

Should you be so unfortunate as to have your Amiga get into
difficulties, perhaps these codes will help you and your repair man to put it in good health again.

(The information on startup routines came from messages on Usenet, and the keyboard information from the Amiga Hardware Manual.)

Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 04:52:14 PM
@Erol

Those codes aren't much help at all actually at this point in time because there is no video of any kind whatsoever. Beleive me, if I was getting any color screen, I wouldn't leave that information out! Also, the Caps Lock light does no kind of blinking at all. It is solid from the time I turn the system on until the time I turn it off.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Damion on October 17, 2006, 05:02:41 PM
Found some links that might be of some help:

 Startup error diagnostics (http://main.aminet.net/hard/misc/errormessages.txt)

 Schematics and service manuals, "tech topics"

[url=http://theweeks.org/toms-stuff/AMYHACKPAGE.html#TDTTT] Links page, may be some useful info here  (http://www.shiftreload.com.au/users/4x4/schematics/index.html)


And I hate to ask the obvious, but have you taken a very close, thorough look at the board, to check for anything that looks like it may have gotten hot? Or maybe a previous   repair/upgrade gone wrong... (f.e, A500 motherboards required different modifications when upgrading to the 1 MB Agnus (popular), maybe a bad solder joint or someting around JP2? I had one of these once... drove me nuts!)


Regards,


Damion
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Erol on October 17, 2006, 05:11:44 PM
Try swapping the CIA chips round, temporary test until you get replacement chips.

To swap the CIA chips you will need to take the Amigas case off and remove the metal shielding underneath. The two CIA's are both 40-pin chips that are marked CIA ODD and CIA EVEN. Simply swap them over, making sure that you have placed them in the right way and replace the case.

Temporary solution till you get a replacement chips.

If it was a RAM or Agnus problem your video screen would go green.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 05:30:04 PM
@Erol

We've already done that. See the previous page of this thread for the result.

As for looking voer the board, yes I've done that and haven't found anything that looks wrong.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: McVenco on October 17, 2006, 05:37:51 PM
It sucks that you don't have a video signal. Do you only have that A520 modulator at your disposal or do you have other ways to connect it to a monitor/tv?

If your modulator doesn't work, you can keep changing chips until god knows when, but it wouldn't help...

Just asking.... :)
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 17, 2006, 05:43:06 PM
In addition to the modulator, I have also tried the monochrome video out, but I get the same result. Other than that, Ihave no other way of hooking itup to a monitor or TV.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Erol on October 18, 2006, 06:25:18 PM
go to ebay,  type in this item number  

140042120376
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: DrDekker on October 18, 2006, 07:31:17 PM
Might seem a stupid question but - you have tuned your TV in to receive the signal haven't you?

The frequency should be similar (if not exactly the same) to the output from a VCR.
 
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 18, 2006, 08:43:00 PM
I appreciate everyone's help, however I've given up on it. It's probably nothing that can be fixed. I'm going to sell it on Ebay for parts. I have, however, just received another 500 which, thankfully, seems to work just fine! I do have one question for you guys though: It currently has a Kickstart 1.3 ROM, and I have a 2.0 ROM I'd like to upgrade to-how much work is there to it? Does it involve soldering? Thanks agin for your helpy guys, I really appreciate it!
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: McVenco on October 18, 2006, 09:00:45 PM
There's no soldering required at all.

1 - open the case
2 - make sure you are not loaded with static electricity
3 - carefully remove the 1.3 ROM (I always use a screwdriver, but be careful - never use more force than needed)
4 - enter the 2.0 ROM in exactly the same way
5 - push it down firmly but carefully
6 - close the case
7 - enjoy :-)
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 18, 2006, 09:15:08 PM
Great! For some reason I was under the impression that there was a jumper line on the board that had to be soldered.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: zipper on October 18, 2006, 09:17:36 PM
Depends on your mobo revision - rev.6 or higher needs no alterations.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 18, 2006, 09:47:20 PM
How do you tell what version it is? Is it written on the board somewhere?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: zipper on October 19, 2006, 02:27:52 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Tomas on October 19, 2006, 04:53:39 PM
I still have not seen any replies about if you checked the psu or not?? And also try disconnecting the floppy drive. If something is wrong with it, or if cable is connected wrong way, then the drive light would be lit all the time and that could also stop the computer from booting.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: sdyates on October 19, 2006, 05:22:31 PM
Stay with 1.3!

It is compatible with most software. I have so many 2.04+ OSs that it was hard to find a 1.3 machine.

STAY WITH 1.3 on the 500!
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 19, 2006, 05:29:13 PM
Tomas, I have replied. Look again.

@sdyates,

I have more software for 2.4 than 1.3 so upgrading to 2.0 would be the best way for me to go I think.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: amigaman61 on October 20, 2006, 12:40:06 AM
Hi, BGary335

If you really can`t get it going (and I`ve read all the posts and can`t think of the problem) let me know what board revision you have and I will send you a MoBo from one of the many I have for nothing apart from postage costs.

I`m in Dorset in England so you can calculate postage from where ever you are.

Regards, Amigaman61
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 20, 2006, 01:40:16 AM
I've sent you a Private Message.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 20, 2006, 05:55:21 PM
Have you received my PM?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Erol on October 20, 2006, 07:40:07 PM
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110045459700

anyone seen these on ebay, the seller has loads listed.
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 20, 2006, 07:42:22 PM
I've actually seen quite a few of those on Ebay.

BTW, what does this have to do with this topic? :-D
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Erol on October 20, 2006, 07:59:17 PM
Quote

BGary335 wrote:
BTW, what does this have to do with this topic? :-D



Open forum discussion,  A500 topic..  just though someone would be interested rather than posting a new post again. ;)
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 20, 2006, 08:39:48 PM
Actually its called hijacking when you come into a thread and post something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. :roll:
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: Erol on October 20, 2006, 09:50:58 PM
@BGary335    -
 :lol:  
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 20, 2006, 11:40:35 PM
That's called ignorance. :roll:

Or have you really never heard the term hijacking?
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: K7HTH on October 22, 2006, 07:14:26 AM
Quote
BGary335 wrote:That's called ignorance. :roll:
Or have you really never heard the term hijacking?


Actually it is called, "Threadjacking".
Title: Re: A500 Boot Problem
Post by: BGary335 on October 23, 2006, 06:23:48 PM
The two terms are actually interchangeable. I've seen both used on many occasions.