Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga.org site announcements => Topic started by: on May 17, 2003, 03:30:44 PM
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Hi!
To those of you who haven't noticed, all Amiga.org staff members have now been added as moderators of each forum. To combat accusations from some of improper moderation, this is an experiment to see whether it helps us keep down the trolling, or just creates more trouble.
There is a chain of command:
- Moderators are welcomed to edit the posts of Webmasters, but should first contact them to make sure they are not overstepping their abilities.
- If at all possible, moderators should consult with other moderators before editing the post of another moderator. Should there be a point where Moderators are taking inappropriate action in the eyes of other moderators, that's a real problem and will have to be addressed by the Webmasters.
- Webmasters can moderate all.
Each Moderator has been advised that this should not be abused to promote personal agenda and to respect the opinions of others. The dividing line between opinion and actionable is quite clear and should a Moderator have a question, they should consult a Webmaster before taking action.
In addition, each Moderator has been advised that they should not delete posts, simply edit them, deleting the offensive text, marking it "edited by moderator : reason".
Those reasons can include, but are not limited to;
trolling
personal insult
language
off-topic
Should you happen across what you feel is a problem, please contact me immediately and I will investigate.
Hopefully this will make things a bit more stable for the future of this site and community.
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Giving loads of people moderator status is totally distasteful and if they just do not like a comment they will delete it and the person has no idea who deleted it so reporting them is void.
The above is not accusing people of anything but expressing an opinion.
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What is a "staff" person normally doing? How many people are we talking about?
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SlimJim
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Comment deletions are supposed to be logged to me directly via e-mail. Haven't had the chance to test it, but it should be done that way to enforce a little common sense.
These are people who are hand picked and part of the staff here. They have in large part run things for a long while. I simply never took the opportunity to sort out the moderation problems (where I was listed as the only moderator of most forums). Mostly, things have not changed except that staff members now have their names listed and ranks displayed properly.
Since your only concern seems to be the number of names listed, would a single "Amiga.org staff" make you feel better even if it didn't describe the number of people involved?
To suggest inpropriety is... well unappreciated. It never ever ceases to amaze me -- the number of things people find to bitch about.
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Hi Wayne,
So what happens if a pair of moderators take the total opposite stance on an edit to a post? After all everybody has different takes on things...
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@Karlos,
As I said, nothing has changed. Each person on the moderator's list has had this ability for quite some time, even if they weren't aware of it because I hadn't audited the "groups" to show the icon next to their name (and their name on the page).
We all have differing opinions, but where there is a conflict it is sorted out by the Webmasters (myself, Kent, Targhan). That's what the chain of command comment was about, and it's what we're here for.
Wayne
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Having glanced at the forum listing under “General”, I don't think that Wayne+12 is an unwarranted number, especially given the volume on this site.
Being a Moderator can have a humbling effect on a person, so it would be difficult for any of us not “in the loop” to assess the choices made—even if we knew the reasons for selection, which we don't, no matter how much our pride would like to convince us otherwise.
In most areas of this endeavor, I would say, “the higher the level of transparency, the better,” yet there are areas in which people here need to be reigned in. It might pinch a little, but it will be worth it, I think.
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I don't think people understand that on sites like this there is a pressure on Moderators NOT to moderate. Every (rare) moderation is scrutanised a great deal, and it must be hard to make that desicion (after all it is a privalige and a responsibilty) when it isn't clear cut.
Fortunately unlike some other forum sites, the whole process is visible and public here on a.org
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I don't get it. First, you complain because of the lack of moderation. When I realized that I was the only listed moderator, I fixed the problem. Now you want to complain because there are too many moderators when not a single issue has arisen?
Color me confused.
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/me is confused too. Just have guidelines for what should be ' moderated'. Seems simple enough, I have no qualms.
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I like this. As Wayne has said, nothing has changed.
A possible chenge to the layout of the main forum page might be better. How about haveing a list of all the moderators in one place (either at the top or down the side) instead of listing everybody next to the different forums? Imho (which I suppose is as good as then next member's) this would make the page look a little less cluttered.
I was thinking of something similar to the actual "Talk-About"/"Software" etc pages where the names are listed at the top, but more prominent.
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Looks good Wayne.
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trolling
personal insult
language
off-topic
Off-topic gets moderated? Maybe ask a couple hundred more volunteers then :-D
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Well.. Not that many, if some people are automatically moderated as Off-topic.. :-P
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So no freedom of speech or opinions here anymore.
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yeah it'll make the site more boring... part of the fun here is the occasional 'trolling' that goes on... wasnt the 'talk about' section moved off the front page just to make that alright? now more moderators?... I noticed today when I looked around that there where more things moderated then I've seen on this site every before perhaps even every before combined...I dunno if thats because of the new moderator powers of a new 'edict' from you wayne... but I hope it dosent dull the site down..
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amigamad wrote:
So no freedom of speech or opinions here anymore.
Oh, cmon. This is the LAST place you're likely to be moderated. This isn't about there being "enough" moderation, this is more to balance the "color" of moderation from what it looks like.
Anyways, I hope lighthearted trolls arn't moderated, those are usually the fun threads!
:-P
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@Amigamad
I am about sick of you and your accusations. Keep pushing and the only thing not welcomed here will be you.
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Wayne wrote:
@Amigamad
I am about sick of you and your accusations. Keep pushing and the only thing not welcomed here will be you.
I second that, it's pathetic. Give it a rest.
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meerschaum wrote:
yeah it'll make the site more boring... part of the fun here is the occasional 'trolling' that goes on... wasnt the 'talk about' section moved off the front page just to make that alright? now more moderators?... I noticed today when I looked around that there where more things moderated then I've seen on this site every before perhaps even every before combined...I dunno if thats because of the new moderator powers of a new 'edict' from you wayne... but I hope it dosent dull the site down..
No it will not change a thing. Fir the most part, all the moderators listed have been moderators for quite some time. Wayne is only naming them all instead of just himself to help save from confusion. He also simply stated some simple no-brainer guidlines for us moderators.
As for more things being moderated lately, a few select people have been getting out of hand. Has happened before, likely will happen again. There is very little you can say or do and get deleted unless you are specifically trying to.
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You moderators will never silence the Sheeners so do not even try it.
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Im about sick of everyone at the moment same crap every week.
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Paul_Gadd wrote:
You moderators will never silence the Sheeners so do not even try it.
is that what MrSheen is for? anti-moderator
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amigamad wrote:
Im about sick of everyone at the moment same crap every week.
Have to agree with you.. But could you please start from yourself. You have plenty to do on cleaning up your own Act...
Me.. In these days I spend more on real world using real computers. I am not so interested on talking about hypothetical systems any more.
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is that what MrSheen is for? anti-moderator
moderators are the Mr.Sheen of the internet... 'Mr.Sheen keeps it clean'
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meerschaum wrote:
is that what MrSheen is for? anti-moderator
moderators are the Mr.Sheen of the internet... 'Mr.Sheen keeps it clean'
oh well that sounds like a good thing... :-D
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@ amigamad
I think you need to do some serious venting :-)
How about on ANN? :-)
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@JoannaK
I have nothing to clean up just fed up of the same arguments and lies wich people make up.At the end of the day a linux or windows pc is beter than any amiga or amiga copy. :-?
ps, morph os and amigaone users should be able to get on as a community like the amiga has always been known for. Arguments over which is best is unimportant its what suits you software and hardware wise .both systems os4 or not should have the ability to run same software .
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Bah, he already does the same and WORSE, on ANN...
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I never visit ann so i dont know how you got that .www.amigart.com is the only other site i go to often .and i cant post because im not sighned up. :-?
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Seem's to me everything is the same as it was, a great place to visit, good folk's to talk to and exchange idea's and info with. Don't see any reason why this should change with what seems to be a minor thing. I think Wayne and his "staff" are doing an admirable job, one that not many of us has the time or inclination to do too. They should be applauded! Here! Here!
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I don't get it. First, you complain because of the lack of moderation. When I realized that I was the only listed moderator, I fixed the problem. Now you want to complain because there are too many moderators when not a single issue has arisen?
Well, I think it is a good thing Wayne. Some do not even post here anymore because there were no moderations occuring before. I've probably been just as much to blame in the past, and a couple of times even expected to see some of my posts moderated, but never did. Sometimes it's hard not to vent your frusterations. But most of us know when we've overstepped our bounds, and usually never step back in to say "sorry". I say, welcome to more strict moderations, but those OT's are going to be a full time job. :-D
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AmigaMad: well there surely is someone with same nick and similar style in there.. So either you have a fan or you have damn loysy memory.
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The thing with ann though is anyone can post you dont have to sighn up i could call myself homer simpson and submit post its not hard to use the same nickname as someone else when you dont need to register to use it. :-)
I come to amiga org to get away from the crap on ann only time i go there is if there is no amiga news on any other site for the day and thats hardly ever . :-o
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Nice idea. I just hope what happened or is happening on OSnews does not occure here. I hope this idea of yours works Wayne, for the future of Amiga.org.
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I have nothing to clean up just fed up of the same arguments and lies wich people make up
Hi there... I haven't posted for a while, cause I really haven't been motivated to! But.... this thread has...
Wayne - top idea big man, moderating is a good idea, and hopefully it will be used in the spirit is is meant to!
Amigamad... listen up chief... I see what you're saying, but comments like "no more free speach" is just ridiculous, the whole point is we remove the rants of people who are unwilling to tolerate other people.
If you want to continue in this mannor, then you will become one of these "unproductive" people ruining the community.
Hell, I'm fed up of the same arguments, but if members are not going to use common sense, then why bother.
FINAL COMMENT: A BIT OF SOLIDARITY FOR WAYNE AND THE OTHER WEBMASTERS/MODERATORS - THEY DON'T DO THIS FOR THE GOOD OF THEIR HEALTH!
All the best,
Scott
Glasgow Amiga Users Group (http://gaug.cjb.net/)
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I don't get it. First, you complain because of the lack of moderation. When I realized that I was the only listed moderator, I fixed the problem. Now you want to complain because there are too many moderators when not a single issue has arisen?
Welcome to the wonderful world of moderation. No matter what you do will be criticised by some people.
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amigamad wrote:
I never visit ann so i dont know how you got that .www.amigart.com is the only other site i go to often .and i cant post because im not sighned up. :-?
This isn't you then?
> Posted by amigamad (200.246.46.131) on 17-May-2003 20:26:57
>
> Wayne Hunt over at Amiga.org will only allow anti Amiga
> comments and deletes comments against Genesi, i thought
> that might cheer you MorphOS blind zealots up.
If you're saying that's not you, then we should remove that comment too, as obviously it's an imposter, right?
As a matter of fact, if you never visit there, like you say, then all your posts there should be removed as name spoofing is a violation of ann.lu's posting rules.
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redrumloa wrote:
Wayne wrote:
@Amigamad
I am about sick of you and your accusations. Keep pushing and the only thing not welcomed here will be you.
I second that, it's pathetic. Give it a rest.
I "third" that. Geesh, what's the deal?!?!
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@Wayne,
This seems like a good plan to me. The idea of keeping things open and up front is a good one. The only concern is - like some have pointed out - where moderators may disagree on a particular issue. I would assume in such a case it would be filtered upwards to the web masters and ultimately to you. At any rate, I wouldn't worry too much about those who are "complaining" now as all plans must come under some form of scrutiny, and the mere existence of open questioning and discussion is a sign of a fairly moderated forum all on it's own!
- Mike
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amigamad wrote:
So no freedom of speech or opinions here anymore.
I see no validation for this comment. If anything I think things will be MORE fair. Generally speaking distributing power lessens the potential for corruption. The question really isn't how many moderators are enough, but how well are they moderating? So far I've seen little reason to be upset with the moderators, even though I've been invloved in some "heated" discussions with some of them. I've even had some posts moderated and even though I wasn't thrilled to see them moderated they were right to do so as I did infact break the rules (posting gory scenes of dead Iraqi children from the Iraq invasion etc.) .
The simple fact is I know I can get away with more crap on Amiga.org then I can on other forums that I visit. Some forums don't even allow "heated" discussions and absolutely no political discussions. Overall I think Amiga.org is pretty lax, I'm not sure what people are complaining about!
Of course, if the moderators let the power get to their heads then they'll be hearing from me! ;-) And in the end it's the users who will ultimately decide. If they moderate Amiga.org to oblivion then I will simply move on to another forum (or just spend more time on more useful "realworld" things like fixing things around the house, cleaning up, yard work, going to the beach, working out, etc. ;-) ).
- Mike
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Perhaps to calm some concerns Amiga.org could implement some official appeal process? Perahps this might generate too much work, but the idea would be if something is moderated and causes some contraversy, perhaps it can be reviewed by the higher-ups? Just a thought. People like to provide feedback even if they know what they did is wrong. In otherwords, no one likes to be moderated even if they know what they posted was unacceptable. Of course this could be abused, but it makes people feel more like equals and is more friendly-like. Just a thought.
- Mike
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@redrumloa and @SilvrDrgn
I'm not sure that our squeaky-clean Mr. Sheen understands that the only thing that has really changed is that the moderators are listed as such. Also, it looked to me that the rules of moderation were only re-affirmed.
@Mr. Sheen, nothing is really changing other than, (at lease in my opinion) credit is being given where it's due. I expect, and sometimes enjoy, a bit of tounge-in-cheek humor. I wouldn't worry much about the loss of free speech
:-)
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@T_Bone
no it isnt me thats not even my ip address as for all my comments i dont post anything on ann or any other site.ive just found that this person is online by pinging there computer so im do a who is search on it . :-)
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The results of an ip search
Search results for: 200.246.46.131
OrgName: Latin American and Caribbean IP address Regional Registry
OrgID: LACNIC
Address: Potosi 1517
City: Montevideo
StateProv:
PostalCode: 11500
Country: UY
NetRange: 200.0.0.0 - 200.255.255.255
CIDR: 200.0.0.0/8
NetName: LACNIC-200
NetHandle: NET-200-0-0-0-1
Parent:
NetType: Allocated to LACNIC
NameServer: ARROWROOT.ARIN.NET
NameServer: BUCHU.ARIN.NET
NameServer: CHIA.ARIN.NET
NameServer: DILL.ARIN.NET
NameServer: NS.LACNIC.ORG
NameServer: NS.DNS.BR
NameServer: NS2.DNS.BR
Comment: This IP address range is under LACNIC responsibility for further
Comment: allocations to users in LACNIC region.
Comment: Please see http://www.lacnic.net/ for further details, or check the
Comment: WHOIS server located at whois.lacnic.net
RegDate: 2002-07-27
Updated: 2002-12-12
TechHandle: LACNIC-ARIN
TechName: LACNIC Hostmaster
TechPhone: (+55) 11 5509-3525
TechEmail: hostmaster@lacnic.net
OrgTechHandle: LACNIC-ARIN
OrgTechName: LACNIC Hostmaster
OrgTechPhone: (+55) 11 5509-3525
OrgTechEmail: hostmaster@lacnic.net
# ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2003-05-19 20:10
# Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database.
:-?
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amigamad: I think you've been told to simmer down..please do so.
Wayne is doing a EXCELLENT job with this site. After the A1 is out, software is out, I see this site growing to a huge # of users. And yes, the other mods are doing excellent as well. I havent seen a mod step out of bounds but this is a great way for Wayne to dictate work to the rest of us that way he doesnt spend all day monitoring kids throwing hissy fits when they dont like something.
If it were not for moderators, you'd have users taking over a forum and turning it into a trashy site that nobody will ever want to visit.
-Alex aka TheMagicM
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What do you mean simmer down all i posted was the results of the ip address someone claims someone using my amiga.org nickname has used on ann i just posted the results of the scan to prove it is not me as i dont want people to think its me making the comments .
your all doing a good job there was nothing ofensive rude or any personal attacks just trying to clear up the fact .
with the morph os users and amigaone users the site will be massive :-? the amount of new users each day proves that.
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I first ran into the moderation in the thread about the Ben Hermans interview, and I think it's great. I especially liked it when only parts of a post were deleted (like one maked "personal attack"), the rest of the post was worth reading so the partial moderation was better than nuking the entire post.
It's funny that it's the known trolls that are complaining the loudest (hi Paul_Gadd!), everyone else seems to welcome the idea.
Wayne, this is a Good Thing (tm). Just make sure you have reasonably neutral moderators (and enforce giving a reason for every time a comment is changed), and it should improve this site a lot (you have to admit, it was getting pretty polarized lately).
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Wayne, this is a Good Thing (tm). Just make sure you have reasonably neutral moderators
A moderator's own values and ideals should be exercised in the common good. "Neutral" or otherwise
you have to admit, it was getting pretty polarized lately).
To admit that, I would have to believe that this is a situation where there are really two different sides.
In the end, if you put away all the BS surrounding the legally questionable activities of Amiga Inc management, you would probably understand that we are one big crowd and we all want the same thing. A new, fast, fun-to-use machine based on the principles of the classic Amiga platform. Whatever "color" you believe that makes you should not matter in the slightest. I'm fairly sure that most of you aren't racists. Why are you all acting like "computists"? Our little world is really just varying shades of purple. There is no black, no white, no red, no blue.. Just computers.
Judge a platform on it's merits. Judge people on their actions (not their words). Whatever you want is cool by me, but just realize the bigger picture please?
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ust make sure you have reasonably neutral moderators
Will Chaotic Neutral do? :-D
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@Wayne:
To admit that, I would have to believe that this is a situation where there are really two different sides.
Sorry, but you just have to look at the "Alan's reply to Bill" thread to see that there *are* two sides. The saddest part of it is that the arguments are 100% ideological (either Bill is right or Alan is right, "just because"). There are a few ppl left who still try to use their brains (SlimJim comes to mind), but most are quite comfortable sitting in their battlements.
I used to be what some would call a BAF, mostly because I believe in the Friedens and the rest of the Hyperion crew. Now I'm just disillusioned with the whole sad situation; I would be surprised if the amiga "community" hasn't torn itself apart by this time next year. I don't care who's fault it is - I doubt it matters by now.
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It's funny that it's the known trolls that are complaining the loudest (hi Paul_Gadd!), everyone else seems to welcome the idea.
Yeah right a troll for stating an opinion, maybe you are a yes sir person but not everyone is like that.
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Ah, freedom of speech - the troll's only claim to legitimacy.