Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: woz111 on September 22, 2006, 10:12:35 AM
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I think that Hyperion should port the Amiga OS over to the PC platform now, due to the death of the promised power-pc motherboards etc and a total lack of new hardware for the amiga. It's now only a matter of time before our beloved platform dies out forever. You can get new pc motherboards for under £30? Think of the possibilities, Hyperion could develop OS 4 for the pc platform with a specific setup requirement. What do you all think?
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How many more times...
--
moto
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The xx86? I think the 8086 is a little slow even in Amiga terms :-P
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It's amazing how so many people manage to live under a rocks with no network access for so many years.
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forget X86 we need it in AMD64
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You all know what I mean, ATHLON 64 or the new Pentium P4's. I also know that this discussion's been brought up many times in the past. I feel now however due to the many dead ends, I, like a lot of other amiga users am getting a little disheartened the way things are going, and have been the last few years. I've tried UAE & Amithlon, and indeed still use my A1200 now and then for the ocassional game of Alien breed 3d 2. But I'd now like the OS to get ported to a viable future, one that's cheap and readily avialable.
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forget X86 we need it in AMD64
You mean like this (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=21)?
Dammy
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woz111 wrote:
You all know what I mean, ATHLON 64 or the new Pentium P4's. I also know that this discussion's been brought up many times in the past. I feel now however due to the many dead ends, I, like a lot of other amiga users am getting a little disheartened the way things are going, and have been the last few years. I've tried UAE & Amithlon, and indeed still use my A1200 now and then for the ocassional game of Alien breed 3d 2. But I'd now like the OS to get ported to a viable future, one that's cheap and readily avialable.
Cheap and readily available ??
You already mentioned, dude: UAE; it's the ONLY viable amiga platform. Period!
Aros & MorphOs & O$ 4, have nothing to do with the amiga, apart from claiming themselves very arrogantly "amiga-like"!
It's sad how so many pseudo-amigans out there can't see this simple fact! VERY SAD!!
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... or think of it this way - Open Source - or die. It's the only way for alternative platforms to stay alive.
-- Peter
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Search the forums this has being discussed to death already!
Hyperion have already answered your question and it's a "No!"
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I also agree with you Pete, Open Source is another way to go about things. And as of UEA, who in the hell wants to have Win XP in the background running, I only use Windows as it's the only way to go at the moment, macs are overpriced and linux is S**t. A simple Amiga OS 4 disc to install on a nice new HDD, then, no crap blue screens of death anymore. I HATE Windows with a capital H, who in their right minds wants to format there PC's one a month because of crashes etc, not me, and personally I'm sick of it, XP that is.
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A couple of years ago I wouldve agreed with this thread, now I no longer care what happens to OS4. Ive got Windows for WinUAE and Ubuntu for learning something new and different. Both have massive software support, which is what I want.
Once AROS offers a browser, that'll do me for an Amiga OS on x86 to toy with.
If by some chance OS4 does turn up on x86, what would be the point beyond giving present Amiga users something to go on with?
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Hyperion can't port AmigaOS4 to x86 because their license only covers PPC. Period.
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"Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the xx86."
Absolutely, but for OS4 I don't really care anymore
just like Coldfish said. OS5 can bring me some
interest again if I feel I can wait another 5+ years.
AROS is looking good, and even better when it is more ready for Internet Browsing etc.
It's just insane keeping anything AmigaOS like on
expensive hard-to-get hardware. And what if I would
like to have a laptop running OS4 how many XX years would
I have to wait for that?
PowerPC is a dead end for Amiga. It always has been.
But if you want to keep the community tiny and not care
if you bring in new users or not then PowerPC is the
best choice out there.
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I, of course, agree that OS 4 should be ported to x86... as I have said before :-)
But if the owners of the copyright won't do it (for whatever reason) then we are stuck. Our only course is to support the open source projects or use our aging machines, which I think is still the best way to go! -- Folks this is wholly MY opinion, I am not endeavoring nor would I presume to speak for the entire community!
Anyhow, we are going to have to live with what we can do.
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I believe the title of the thread is "Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the x86" not "Do you care about Amiga OS4 or not?".
There's a couple of reasons off the top of my head why I don't want the Amiga to be running on x86. One is that I dont really want it to be involved in the Mhz race, where only the fastest speeds will do, which is how Mac and Windows seem to be doing things at the moment. It was the same back when the classic Amiga was around. "Your Amiga with it's 7 Mhz CPU is nothing compared to my PC running it 66Mhz!".
And another point is that you cannot simply buy a x86 CPU that can be passivly cooled - every cpu, even mobile ones run hot and i'm sick of having a computer that makes so much noise. (And yes I have "silent" fans and psu in my computer, it still makes as much noise when cpu intense tasks are running)
One final point is that I dont think it's good to have just one main type of cpu out there. I think it's good to have options, and although there isn't any manufacturer that can compete with the x86 CPU at the moment, I dont think that everybody should just ditch everything else and jump on the x86 bandwagon, just becasue it's the "fastest".
It's not the speed, it's what you do with it that counts.
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One is that I dont really want it to be involved in the Mhz race, where only the fastest speeds will do, which is how Mac and Windows seem to be doing things at the moment.
CPU MHz race is dead. It's now FSB speed/bandwidth, multi-cores, GPUs, and PPUs. If that isn't Amiga style having all these seperate processors churning away vs .286 of let the CPU do everything, don't know what is. Instead of having another small bump in 486 speed to look forward to next year, it's quad cores and amazing GPUs that they won't tell us about for six more months.
Hard to believe it's been nearly 20 years since I saw an Amiga demo that had moving reflective water that made my eyes pop open. Now it's breath taking gfx of DAoC or BF2 on huge honking LCD screens. "What a long strange trip it's been." Greatful Dead
Dammy
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neon32, you need to update your opinions.
-The Mhz war -is- over, its about multi-core now.
-There are passive x86 CPUs, (try Via mini/nanoITX for a start). I think we'll start to see more in this area in 6-12 months.
I agree it's no good having just one type of CPU out there, but the x86 is fortunate in that is has two major developers who constantly try to out-do one another on price and performance. Keeping innovation and value to the consumer extremely high.
What does PPC architecture offer, apart from some vague "spiritual" heredity to the 680x0 of yore? No really "real" (ie, Built and sold by Commodore) Amiga was built with that CPU. Yet they used x86 based CPUs in several machines...
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What does PPC architecture offer, apart from some vague "spiritual" heredity to the 680x0 of yore?
The possibility to build a custom machine, which is not yet another x86 mobo which has already its load of OSes.
Varthall
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The possibility to build a custom machine, which is not yet another x86 mobo which has already its load of OSes
So they bought a generic third party PPC mobo instead? Someone needs a sign, real bad like.
Dammy
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dammy wrote:
CPU MHz race is dead.
Dammy
I agree, in the literal sense. Probably using the term "Mhz race" wasn't the best idea, but what I was trying to do was encompass the whole "race" of more power is better, as a whole. Dual core, Quad core, it's just the moden equivalent of the Mhz race.
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So they bought a generic third party PPC mobo instead? Someone needs a sign, real bad like.
It's still a custom machine, if compared to the common x86 boards.
Varthall
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what is common sense to us..goes over the heads of developers/business owners.
I dont know how good of an idea it is though.. AROS is x86 and we dont see a whole bunch of AROS specific games on there. AROS is about as close as you get to AmigaOS on x86. It has UAE (I've never tested it..) so you can play your old games. If OS4 went x86 would games/utility developers come out of the woodworks and we would see a influx of new wares?
I havent checked on AROS but installing it on HD was a pain in the arse so I gave up. Is it any easier? I want to run it on a VMWare session.
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@Varthall;
You say custom like its a good thing.
How so?
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@ TheMagicM
The reason for the lack of apps is no secret, it's lack of developers. AROS gets new ones, old one fade away so when AROS starts getting fresh blood with the old devs sticking around and producing code, you will see AROS increase in user apps. As a stop gap, there is now a significant bounty for UAE integration via TeamAROS (http://www.teamaros.org) that maybe a quick and dirty way to get more (although Amiga 68K binaries) user apps running on AROS. Currently, TeamAROS and a developer are in talks on creating a better definition of what is to be done. Keep an eye on this (http://www.thenostromo.com/archives/teamaros/2006-09/).
Install is still annoying, but two devs (Ogun and Kalamatee) are working to pin point the issue(s) with the native install. Best bet it to run it emulation or hosted, see this (http://www.aros.org/documentation/users/installation.php) for instructions for hosted, emulated, and native.
Dammy
TeamAROS
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Baaa, another retread topic.
Okay, how about this....
Minimig with AROS 68K and AROS replacement ROM. Open Hardware and Software.
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The possibility to build a custom machine, which is not yet another x86 mobo which has already its load of OSes.
PPC, I don't get why people argue this.
I would have gone the easy x86 route and have an amiga in my hands.
Different isn't good if your product is a non existent.
Hey this could be the new Amiga slogan
"Think different, think nothing."
:lol:
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So the "custom" chips in the original amiga weren't a good thing? In my oppinion custom is a good thing, as long it's not a cause for being a pain in the arse to program for. If you join the x86 side, you'll be running along-side the "big boys" Microsoft, Apple, and Linux in the eyes of the public.
At this moment in time funds are limited and large leaps in technology are not really on the horizon, so i think Amiga would fair much better creating it's own section of the market, and gain it's own fan base like that then trying to catch up with the large companies and essentially becoming a "PC" in the process.
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You say custom like its a good thing.
How so?
Of course everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I have always liked the idea of "custom" (i.e. with a high, or total degree of compatibility, not reached only by software drivers) computers as they make me, as an owner, fell more part of a community (same hardware, easier to get advice on hardware problems), hardware banging becomes a possibility, and last but not least I become much easier attached to them. Also, a custom machine with AmigaOs is more similar to the concept of the original Amigas. I have found the A1 (and the Pegasos even more) to be an acceptable balance between a custom machine and one using off-the-shelf components, required by economies of scale. Others disagree, saying that's too much similar to a PC, it depends to what you'd find acceptable and what not.
Varthall
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@neon32:
at the time custom chips were the good thing. There wasnt anything in the Amiga's price range that could do the equivalent.
@dammy:
I will give it a shot. I'll re-download..since UAE runs on AROS (I think..havent checked) then it should be a-ok.
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Different isn't good if your product is a non existent.
Well, tomorrow (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46696) I'll see one of those products, and I hope they'll manage to market it with OS4.
Varthall
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Of course everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I have always liked the idea of "custom" (i.e. with a high, or total degree of compatibility, not reached only by software drivers) computers as they make me, as an owner, fell more part of a community (same hardware, easier to get advice on hardware problems), hardware banging becomes a possibility, and last but not least I become much easier attached to them.
I completely agree.
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neon32 wrote:
I believe the title of the thread is "Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the x86" not "Do you care about Amiga OS4 or not?".
Well we already know that OS4 never is going to be ported
so there's no point in commenting on OS4 specifically.
So why would I care for OS4?
There's a couple of reasons off the top of my head why I don't want the Amiga to be running on x86. One is that I dont really want it to be involved in the Mhz race, where only the fastest speeds will do, which is how Mac and Windows seem to be doing things at the moment. It was the same back when the classic Amiga was around. "Your Amiga with it's 7 Mhz CPU is nothing compared to my PC running it 66Mhz!".
Oh, come on. That was ages ago, I thought everybody moved
on since then. I rather see Amiga progress among others
than be frozen in time on custom hardware. Do you really
think a small hardware company can keep up with todays
technology, we will always stay 10 years behind as long
as we are relying on tiny companys building harware for us
with slow progress. I don't like it that way.
And another point is that you cannot simply buy a x86 CPU that can be passivly cooled - every cpu, even mobile ones run hot and i'm sick of having a computer that makes so much noise. (And yes I have "silent" fans and psu in my computer, it still makes as much noise when cpu intense tasks are running)
Yes, PCs can run silent too.
One final point is that I dont think it's good to have just one main type of cpu out there. I think it's good to have options, and although there isn't any manufacturer that can compete with the x86 CPU at the moment, I dont think that everybody should just ditch everything else and jump on the x86 bandwagon, just becasue it's the "fastest".
Not jumping on the x86 bandwagon leaves us behind. Why do
you think AOS on PS3 is so hyped? Because it's new technology and it's believed to be fast. By your reasoning
it would be better that we should build our own PS3 eqvivalent and not use available fast hardware.
It's not the speed, it's what you do with it that counts.
Sure but we can't even have a decent laptop when we are
tied to PPC, because no one makes them.
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Let's talk sense here, custom chips?? Dead, so please don't talk about that. The Amiga at the mo hasn't even got a motherboard out on the market for OS-4. Without OS-4 how's OS-5 going to happen. We have to look at what's readily available and also at a cheap price, our options are x86. I bought a CyberStorm PPC brand new and supported the Amiga as best anyone could, the market was too small. When Phase5 folded, I'd say PPC's for the amiga died with them, unfortunatly. Also, PPC is way too expensive now anyway. x86 is now the way foreward, hell, I'm still waiting for the Amijoe, haha, and it wasn't even April the 1st.
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Don't embarass yourself. If you join the "x86 side" you won't be running alongside boys like Microsoft, Apple and the like unless you're HUGE.
Linux ran alongside Microsoft and Apple. Today they are huge. They succeeded because nobody could stop them (1), and their developers didn't stop developing the OS (2). In a capitalistic world, no OS has a chance on the Desktop if they aren't Microsoft or Apple. It's a matter of tradition now, since they've been the only giants since 1994 or so.
An AmigaOS has the same chance as Linux had in getting market share. The only thing you need is to be able to distribute your OS to people (something the commercial Amiga OS developers just plainly doesn't seem to grasp) and secondly, to maintain it separately of popularity - for it's own sake, because you believe it's any good.
I have perhaps 3 users with Lunapaint. Still, I develop on it because I think it's good in itself! That's faith in your OS and that's what's gonna lead you somewhere. The fact that no commercial intrest can shut you down is the other plus which is gonna move you ahead. No funding problems - no deadlines to keep in respect to budgets.
That's why I believe in AROS in the first place:
1. It understands that x86 is the most accessible to people
2. It understands that open source is unstoppable and immune to corporations trying to "stifle competition"
3. It is more friendly to YOU, - no NDAs, no secrecy crap, no mystical personworship for no reason. Take it or leave it, no strings attached.
More people should support it.
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Varthall wrote:
What does PPC architecture offer, apart from some vague "spiritual" heredity to the 680x0 of yore?
The possibility to build a custom machine, which is not yet another x86 mobo which has already its load of OSes.
Varthall
Wo needs custom hardware? Todays custom hardware means
worse designed, poorer performance, slow progress.
Why hold back Amiga OS ? Let in run on yet another x86 mobo
so people can give it a chance. Don't you think Eyetech
going bust shows how freaking hard it is to bring forth
special "allowed" hardware. How many bankrupts/failures do we need to see before bells starts ringing ?
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@Varthall
Why does PPC offer any more potential than x86 for custom machines? In theory, couldn't a custom x86 motherboard be created? (Eg. using some sort of Kickstart equivalent instead of a BIOS, with integrated custom GPU.)
Not that it's likely to happen of course :-P
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the OS4 isn't ported to X86 only because they don't want to and the reason are market driven (oh the true passion for information technology!). oh but yes a ppc mobo is custom...this is the same crap going on for more than 10 years...
The choiche not to support a X86 technology only because it's Intel and we don't like Intel, I wanna to be different blablabla was the final word on the death of Amiga.
We're not in 1985 anymore. The situation is different, the market and the technology is mature today and there are little space for inventing things. I read the manifesto of Pianeta Amiga and it made me smile: "It is an event in which to enjoy again the taste for the "genuine" information technology of the origins, a time in which passion, intuition and the genius of young people led I.T. towards unimaginable progress not tied only by the common rules of commerce and simple market logic"
Infact today in Amiga world (the world of Hyperion, Eyetech etc.) I don't find neither passion, intuition or genius. The greatest are watching us: the people at PARC, Woz, the creators of MAC, the original Amiga team, the MIT hackers in the 60's not these bunch of IT rookies...
Today there's fantastic technology sold at very low price, produced by the people who really know how to do their job but we don't use it because it's not Amiga. I tought computers were a tool to do things, not an idol
And some of you are really slave of a name? of a computer?
Jay Miner is surely smiling now, I wish I could heard his opinion on this right now.
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So the "custom" chips in the original amiga weren't a good thing?
It was an excellent idea at the time when tech market was the wild wild west era, and a creative individuals could carve out an empire from the beginnings of a house garage. Eye popping gaming capabilities had to be created that was affordable. Hence, the Amiga was born. Today, if you want to revisit the wild wild west, you can either take a flight to your favorite watering hole or take the Interstate Highway. If you think you can get there by horse and wagon, be prepared to meet certain traffic laws, enviromental laws and certain death from a auto accident. Until you can create a time machine, live for today, not the past.
In my oppinion custom is a good thing, as long it's not a cause for being a pain in the arse to program for. If you join the x86 side, you'll be running along-side the "big boys" Microsoft, Apple, and Linux in the eyes of the public.
In other words, no one is going to be able to rip off folks for common hardware. How sad, only making 10 or so buck from a sale of a mobo. /sniffles. As for the eye of the public, it's even worse when they find it's over priced and way under preforming. Remember, Amiga was CHEAPER then those ghastly 286 boxes and was far better at games with stereo sound, no less. That is the reason it's so near and dear to us, best bang for the buck.
Is it any wonder that a generic miniATX series mobo that happen to sport a slow PPC that was seriously over priced and buggy went over like a lead balloon in sales with the public? Wake up an smell the coffee! Reality says you have to be competitive in the real world. Just ask Eyetech.
At this moment in time funds are limited and large leaps in technology are not really on the horizon, so i think Amiga would fair much better creating it's own section of the market, and gain it's own fan base like that then trying to catch up with the large companies and essentially becoming a "PC" in the process.
Sadly, Eyetech already did that with the A1 which was a generic (third party no less) mobo that happen to sport a PPC CPU (plus buggy chipset) and a boingball logo. The only difference between a A1 and x86 mobo, the x86 was a franction of the price, the chipsets worked with common obtained additions (aka RAM) and warranties are usually honored. So why don't you call old Allen up, tell him you got the perfect business model for him. He'll love it!
Dammy
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Today there's fantastic technology sold at very low price, produced by the people who really know how to do their job but we don't use it because it's not Amiga. I tought computers were a tool to do things, not an idol
There you have it. Spot on. I couldn't agree more, infact
can I use your words in my signature :-)
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The Amiga for me was and still is the OS, not the custom hardware and all that. Everyone who thinks the Amiga OS shouldn't be ported over to the x86 platform is, like chsedge says, hammering yet another nail in it's coffing. We should now forget the PPC, the cost for one would turn a lot of people off. And our community's small enough as it is.
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The choiche not to support a X86 technology only because it's Intel and we don't like Intel, I wanna to be different blablabla was the final word on the death of Amiga.
I don't think that way to be the reason to stick to PPC , and I think too that's a childish reason.
Infact today in Amiga world (the world of Hyperion, Eyetech etc.) I don't find neither passion, intuition or genius. The greatest are watching us: the people at PARC, Woz, the creators of MAC, the original Amiga team, the MIT hackers in the 60's not these bunch of IT rookies...
I couldn't find any other reason for Hyperion to develop an operating system with so small possibilities of income than because of passion.
And some of you are really slave of a name? of a computer?
I'm not. I have my limits too, when deciding to support or not a platform.
Jay Miner is surely smiling now, I wish I could heard his opinion on this right now.
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, and I shouldn't have to agree to his opinion even if he's one of the "fathers" of the Amiga.
Varthall
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It was an excellent idea at the time when tech market was the wild wild west era, and a creative individuals could carve out an empire from the beginnings of a house garage. Eye popping gaming capabilities had to be created that was affordable. Hence, the Amiga was born. Today, if you want to revisit the wild wild west, you can either take a flight to your favorite watering hole or take the Interstate Highway. If you think you can get there by horse and wagon, be prepared to meet certain traffic laws, enviromental laws and certain death from a auto accident. Until you can create a time machine, live for today, not the past.
Using your own comparison, personally I'm not seeking for the wild wild west, rather the excitement of that era. It won't be the excitement for new discoveries, but rather n excitement by using a computer which I like.
Sadly, Eyetech already did that with the A1 which was a generic (third party no less) mobo that happen to sport a PPC CPU (plus buggy chipset) and a boingball logo.
... and a OS specifically made for it.
The only difference between a A1 and x86 mobo, the x86 was a franction of the price, the chipsets worked with common obtained additions (aka RAM) and warranties are usually honored. So why don't you call old Allen up, tell him you got the perfect business model for him. He'll love it!
You're forgetting at least one other difference: the fact that we have now a single motherboard set as standard with its own OS, and not just an OS with a very poor support for the vast array of hardware in the x86 market. Isn't this a difference, too?
Varthall
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Why does PPC offer any more potential than x86 for custom machines? In theory, couldn't a custom x86 motherboard be created? (Eg. using some sort of Kickstart equivalent instead of a BIOS, with integrated custom GPU.)
opposed to intel and amd you can go to ibm and have any powerpc cpu you could ever imgaine created to suit your spefic needs. with power/powerpc you are covered in every imaginable product from space shuttles and supercomputers to coffeemachines, pda's and childrens toys.
now thats a real potential. wheter its a viable one worth aiming for is another matter.
/stone
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We should now forget the PPC, the cost for one would turn a lot of people off. And our community's small enough as it is.
cost is quite a poor argument considering the widely spread use of powerpc chips in cheap hardware and game consoles. amd and intel systems are way expensive in comparison.
Today there's fantastic technology sold at very low price, produced by the people who really know how to do their job
definitly, and an awful lot of that technology isnt x86 based.
/stone
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Using your own comparison, personally I'm not seeking for the wild wild west, rather the excitement of that era.
Talk to Cloanto, they will hook you right up. It's just like being there.
... and a OS specifically made for it.
No, it was a port of WB 3.1 from a 68K Amiga to PPC. That's the reason Hyperion does not have ownership of OS4, it's mearly licensed it (which apparently Amiga Inc triggered the buy back option).
You're forgetting at least one other difference: the fact that we have now a single motherboard set as standard with its own OS, and not just an OS with a very poor support for the vast array of hardware in the x86 market. Isn't this a difference, too?
Not at all, take a look at the AROS has for support of nForce mobos. The only chipset not very well supported in nForce4 and that is because it's fairly new and not many of the Devs haven't bought themselves nForce4 mobos, yet. You forget, I was in the business of selling x86 with AROS, I personally funded most of the AROS support of nForce chipsets. It not very difficult to target a given chipset. Just open your eyes and talk to developers which is the best for the least amount of work. Amazing things happen when you keep your ego in check, you can actually make good judgements calls.
BTW, keep an eye on this bounty (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=21). I can see some big changes coming after that one is completed.
Dammy
Head Troll
Black Troll Technology Corporation
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opposed to intel and amd you can go to ibm and have any powerpc cpu you could ever imgaine created to suit your spefic needs. with power/powerpc you are covered in every imaginable product from space shuttles and supercomputers to coffeemachines, pda's and childrens toys.
1. How much does it cost to get Big Blue to customize a PPC core?
2. Why not just stick with AMD or Intel and have them customize a x86 core for your needs? It's got to be cheaper.
Dammy
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dammy wrote:
Amazing things happen when you keep your ego in check
That could go both ways Dammy.
It's a good thing none of the next generation consoles are using Power PC processors in their machines, or that would surely be a catastrophic business decision..
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neon32 wrote:
dammy wrote:
Amazing things happen when you keep your ego in check
That could go both ways Dammy.
It's a good thing none of the next generation consoles are using Power PC processors in their machines, or that would surely be a catastrophic business decision..
Aren't all three next generation consoles using PowerPC variants?
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1. How much does it cost to get Big Blue to customize a PPC core?
2. Why not just stick with AMD or Intel and have them customize a x86 core for your needs? It's got to be cheaper.
price obviously depending on what you need done. wheter you need modifications to an exciting design or you need something radically different.
first off, amd and intel cant modify their chips as ibm can. so besides it being way more expensive, even smaller modifications would be magnitudes more expensive, while bigger changes is basicly impossible as an intel or amd customer you buy what they offer or nothing.
the entire concept of powerpc is buildt up around modular and extendable components. that is why ibm can do powerpc chips in the first place. that is why microsoft, sony, nintendo and lots of other companies all have their custom cpu's made at ibm - if you didnt realise this before participating in this discussion, you might want to read up on a few facts.
http://www.power.org/about/technology/
http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/power/newto/
Aren't all three next generation consoles using PowerPC variants?
yes they are. im sure his post was ment as irony.
/stone
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Now, hold on guys. Don't panick! Just stick to your
classic Amiga hardware / software, and forget about any new Amiga stuff to come, because there isn't gonna be any...
Just love the Amiga for what she is... A sweet darling!
:-D
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stone wrote:
Why does PPC offer any more potential than x86 for custom machines? In theory, couldn't a custom x86 motherboard be created? (Eg. using some sort of Kickstart equivalent instead of a BIOS, with integrated custom GPU.)
opposed to intel and amd you can go to ibm and have any powerpc cpu you could ever imgaine created to suit your spefic needs. with power/powerpc you are covered in every imaginable product from space shuttles and supercomputers to coffeemachines, pda's and childrens toys.
/stone
Emmm, it seems one didn't factor in
1. NASA's purchase orders for X86 based micro-controllers.
2. Surrey Space Technology Limited's satellites i.e. refer to "PCs in space".
As for "childrens toys" refer to "100 dollar" laptop.
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price obviously depending on what you need done. wheter you need modifications to an exciting design or you need something radically different.
first off, amd and intel cant modify their chips as ibm can.
AMD counter that proposition with Torrenza platform i.e. leveraging high volume infrastructure and HTT compatible custom co-processors.
Both AMD and Intel focuses on reaching "economics of scale" for GPU, CPU, core-logic and motherboard infrastructure.
so besides it being way more expensive, even smaller modifications would be magnitudes more expensive, while bigger changes is basicly impossible as an intel or amd customer you buy what they offer or nothing.
Not quite...
It seems you not in privy to Microsoft(Windows OS biz group) and AMD’s co-operation in building the AMD64 ISA i.e. refer to Anvil and Sledge-Hammer project.
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Yeah, right... :lol:
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(http://bad-good.org/phpBB2/images/smiles/mspacman2th.gif) (http://bad-good.org/phpBB2/images/smiles/shit.gif)
________
ARIZONA DISPENSARY (http://arizona.dispensaries.org/)
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:python: :horse:
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stone wrote:
We should now forget the PPC, the cost for one would turn a lot of people off. And our community's small enough as it is.
cost is quite a poor argument considering the widely spread use of powerpc chips in cheap hardware
Emmm, ~60 million ppc units in 2005…
and game consoles. amd and intel systems are way expensive in comparison.
PC HW is not subsidise by software btw.
Go head and offer to the market an ATX compatible motherboard with Cell CPU socket or PPC970xx socket for 100 USD or any ASrock priced motherboard. Offer it before quad-core K8L arrives.
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It's a good thing none of the next generation consoles are using Power PC processors in their machines, or that would surely be a catastrophic business decision..
My bad, I thought we were in referencing desktop computers and not game boxes. Game boxes, PDA, cellphone, whatever CPU floats your boat.
Dammy
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Emmm, it seems one didn't factor in
1. NASA's purchase orders for X86 based micro-controllers.
2. Surrey Space Technology Limited's satellites i.e. refer to "PCs in space".
As for "childrens toys" refer to "100 dollar" laptop.
it seems one missed the point and instead ended up providing proof that you buy off the shelf parts at intel/amd while ibm provides any custom made powerpc cpu you might want.
AMD counter that proposition with Torrenza platform i.e. leveraging high volume infrastructure and HTT compatible custom co-processors.
co-processors are exactly that, and doesnt give you any more or less customaization options over the cpu. torrenzo doesnt do anything in this league either as it only allows for a series of cpu's to be used in the same socket. and counters what exactly? ibm has always provided its customers this option for years, while amd only will offer it in 2007 at the earliest. at best its a minor step and a fraction of what ibm can do.
/stone
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Varthall wrote:
Of course everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I have always liked the idea of "custom" (i.e. with a high, or total degree of compatibility, not reached only by software drivers) computers as they make me, as an owner, fell more part of a community (same hardware, easier to get advice on hardware problems), hardware banging becomes a possibility, and last but not least I become much easier attached to them. Also, a custom machine with AmigaOs is more similar to the concept of the original Amigas. I have found the A1 (and the Pegasos even more) to be an acceptable balance between a custom machine and one using off-the-shelf components, required by economies of scale. Others disagree, saying that's too much similar to a PC, it depends to what you'd find acceptable and what not.
Varthall
You dont need "custom" hardware to get those things. You can join any computer club and get a sense of community. I think what you want is a sense of exclusivity, which is a selfish motive?
This kind of thinking wont get Amiga anywhere other than remaining as a tiny niche, "not commercially viable" and henceforth lead to eventual extinction.
It really is a shame A-inc listened to the vocal nutters in the community when planning the A1 and OS4, (though I understand why they did) because if the OS was available right now for x86, we'd all be posting here using OS4, and have a sense of community and even some sense of exclusivity, complete with affordable, upgradeable hardware. And the "PPC-only! - x86 is Satan" nutters would be silenced (or would they?) and we could get on building the OS's popularity.
I guess this is where AROS comes in... :-D
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Varthall: I have always liked the idea of "custom" (i.e. with a high, or total degree of compatibility, not reached only by software drivers) computers as they make me, as an owner, fell more part of a community (same hardware, easier to get advice on hardware problems)
Custom hardware usually ends up having the worst compatibility. I know, because I work with a lot of custom computers and kiosks -- and those machines always run on x86! PPC has loads of well-known legacy issues.
PPC machines pretty much just follow x86 PC standards, too, even if they tend to follow older ones.
Who designs the custom hardware? Probably some company that specializes in embedded hardware, so their chipset only offers the basics. What, exactly, is custom? Uh, it supports PPC. What special features are available compared to a standard x86 PC? Hmm... you'd need a custom case to put Zorro slots in there, and drivers (and cost) are a problem if you wanted an Amiga floppy drive controller. What is lacking? Modern PPC chipsets don't support things that all PCs have these days, like SerialATA, PCI-X, 6+ USB ports, cheap memory...
What cusomizations do you have in mind?
Oh, and aren't ATI/NVidia GPUs and Audigy cards custom enough for your tastes? These chips are practically their own computers as they are massively programmable.
Varthall: Also, a custom machine with AmigaOs is more similar to the concept of the original Amigas.
Which became a liability. AGA was a piddling update to the original chipset to tide people over until AAA could be released. It never was.
Funny how the original Amiga was made special by its coprocessors, but these days, a PPC CPU is the only thing that matters. Doesn't anybody care about the function of the machine, rather than what brand chips you are using?
Before trying to support custom hardware, just get something running on what's available so people can get it and actually develop for it. A good OS can be ported to anything later.
I have found the A1 (and the Pegasos even more) to be an acceptable balance between a custom machine and one using off-the-shelf components, required by economies of scale.
So, what special custom features make it better than an x86 PC? To me, it looks like an expensive, slow PC that happens to have an exotic CPU on a daughter card. It has far fewer standard features, let alone custom features.
Manu: Yes, PCs can run silent too.
Impossible! Everyone knows a Prescott with 12 fans is the only x86 solution available.
Maffoo: Why does PPC offer any more potential than x86 for custom machines? In theory, couldn't a custom x86 motherboard be created? (Eg. using some sort of Kickstart equivalent instead of a BIOS, with integrated custom GPU.)
Well, Amigans don't want to be tied down by an Intel chipset, right? Everybody knows it's impossible to do anything custom with vanilla x86 chipsets, as ASUS, Gigabyte, Abit, MSI, and Biostar keep proving to us. All these manufacturers make totally identical boards that have no special features of their own.
Varthall: I couldn't find any other reason for Hyperion to develop an operating system with so small possibilities of income than because of passion.
Key words: "develop an operating system"
So why are they so picky about the hardware? The whole point to an OS is to manage the hardware so developers don't have to. If you want to hit the hardware, get rid of the OS and just make a bunch of libraries.
Varthall: Using your own comparison, personally I'm not seeking for the wild wild west, rather the excitement of that era. It won't be the excitement for new discoveries, but rather n excitement by using a computer which I like.
Sorry, but even the hobby market is limited by the reality of economics. You will wait forever to relive the past.
Varthall: ...and a OS specifically made for it.
The OS was made for the PPC, not the motherboard, or any of it's special, custom (read: non-existant) features.
Then again, the OS was changed to disable the buggy features of the chipset, after problems arose. OK, I guess it was made for that board, after all.
Varthall: You're forgetting at least one other difference: the fact that we have now a single motherboard set as standard with its own OS, and not just an OS with a very poor support for the vast array of hardware in the x86 market. Isn't this a difference, too?
Choose only one x86 chipset to support. Problem solved.
How many PPC chipsets are out there? They're all the same, right? If you have custom hardware made, will exploiting its power require forking some code here and there, ensuring that the AmigaOne will still work?
Oh yeah, go PPC, and you'll only have to have one HAL and unified drivers. Especially if it's all custom.
Why can't people learn from the failure of BeOS?
TheWizard: Aren't all three next generation consoles using PowerPC variants?
PPC cores, yes. But, they are custom hardware that is most definately off-limits to mere mortals, unless you want to pay license fees up the wazoo through huge contracts Amiga cannot afford. Consoles also don't need certain features reserved for "real" computers.
Note: Most console SDKs don't actually run on the console hardware. They run on workstations that produce code that eventually runs on debug units. I suppose console developers regularly moan about the lack of "custom" hardware in their workstations.
Stone: first off, amd and intel cant modify their chips as ibm can. so besides it being way more expensive, even smaller modifications would be magnitudes more expensive, while bigger changes is basicly impossible as an intel or amd customer you buy what they offer or nothing.
x86 chips are a lot more modular than you think. Intel and AMD just can't be bothered making tons of custom variations of their flagship CPUs when they already sell millions of each "generic" core they produce. Of course, Intel and AMD aren't the only ones that make x86 chips.
They do make chips for different market segments, you know. Laptop, desktop, and server CPUs share the same parts, but they are definately different chips. Obviously, that doesn't imply modular design.
Stone: it seems one missed the point and instead ended up providing proof that you buy off the shelf parts at intel/amd while ibm provides any custom made powerpc cpu you might want.
OK, how much does it cost to have a custom CPU made? 50 bucks? Can you have those chips made by anybody, or just IBM? What will you do in 5 years if you can't have another custom CPU made for some reason?
I assume you'd like to spend $2,500 for a motherboard just for the novelty of having a custom-built PPC that is unlike any other? Guess why server/workstation boards are so much more expensive than desktop boards.
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by Waccoon on 2006/9/23 5:22:33
OK, how much does it cost to have a custom CPU made? 50 bucks? Can you have those chips made by anybody, or just IBM? What will you do in 5 years if you can't have another custom CPU made for some reason?
With the track record of PPC's developement by IBM (who knows what's Mot's is going to do with their new owners) of the PPC, it should still be close to their upper end CPU desktop. Apple is no long there beating the drum for faster developement of the PPC, why should IBM give a rat's ass on how fast the embedded CPU is developed? Want real horsepower? Go by a Power5 system. Wanna bet some on here will say that is a perk?
I assume you'd like to spend $2,500 for a motherboard just for the novelty of having a custom-built PPC that is unlike any other? Guess why server/workstation boards are so much more expensive than desktop boards.
Logical debate over CPU archs died awhile ago when those denying reality started their PPC cult. As a group, they can enable each other as individuals to deny reality of the situation. Just like any other cult. The funny thing is to pin them down on why PPC has been such a huge failure in the desktop market. They will claim it's a lack of advertising that killed Eyeteck but when you point to IBM's (and Apple's till recently) advertising budget and Apple still left them, they will say it was lack of knowledge of the greatness of the PPC on Jobs' part. Kinda sad to watch this happen, like a fish in it's last dieing moments in a dried up pond, unable to escape the reality of time being up for it's survival.
Dammy
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It really is a shame A-inc listened to the vocal nutters in the community when planning the A1 and OS4
i think its safe to say that they didnt base any development based on a vocal fanbase. if you have any proof that they did, pleaes point me to it. i base my belief on the fact that even back then the userbase was too small to support any future products and hence a buisneess plan would have to focus on the broader perspective.
its very rare to see a userbase that is well enough educated to even know what is best for them, and the amiga user sure isnt one either
x86 chips are a lot more modular than you think. Intel and AMD just can't be bothered making tons of custom variations of their flagship CPUs when they already sell millions of each "generic" core they produce
sure they are able to produce different versions of them, but calling them modular in comparrison to powerpc is complete nonsense and rather farfetched.
you cant make something similar to a cell, p.a.semi's pwrficient or xilinx's programmerble powerpc based on any intel/amd offering without massive production costs. basicly meaning making a brand new cpu/architecture.
I assume you'd like to spend $2,500 for a motherboard just for the novelty of having a custom-built PPC that is unlike any other?
no reason to waste my time by assuming things. in my first post i clearly put a questionmark to wheter the fact that the powerpc is so flexible holds any value or is worth aiming for.
it all depends on where you want to take amiga and amigaos.
seems to me you are assuming im arguing for the use of powerpc when my posts all spins around customization possibilities.
i like powerpc. its a very impressive piece of technology. but its not nessessarily the right way to go at this time.
As a group, they can enable each other as individuals to deny reality of the situation
the interesting thing to notice, is how well your own postings fit into your own cult definition.
the important thing is to keep things in perspective. like mindlessly dismissing powerpc cathegorically without considering the strengths and possibilities really is rather foolish.
/stone
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dammy wrote:
Logical debate over CPU archs died awhile ago when those denying reality started their PPC cult. As a group, they can enable each other as individuals to deny reality of the situation. Just like any other cult. The funny thing is to pin them down on why PPC has been such a huge failure in the desktop market. They will claim it's a lack of advertising that killed Eyeteck but when you point to IBM's (and Apple's till recently) advertising budget and Apple still left them, they will say it was lack of knowledge of the greatness of the PPC on Jobs' part. Kinda sad to watch this happen, like a fish in it's last dieing moments in a dried up pond, unable to escape the reality of time being up for it's survival.
Dammy
I'm all for listening to your arguments supporting your idea's against PPC's Dammy, but when you insert so much patronisation into them it kinda makes it hard for me to really support any of your oppinions.
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Enough the whining about not having your "Pretend Play Chip".
This, I can't have my operating system on a PPC, I'm going to cry :bigcry: . I heard all this b***ching from the "diehard" Mac fans when their stuff went to Intel processors. The whole bit makes me naseauated and sick.
Quit ----------->:horse:
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neon32 wrote:
I believe the title of the thread is "Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the x86" not "Do you care about Amiga OS4 or not?".
There's a couple of reasons off the top of my head why I don't want the Amiga to be running on x86. One is that I dont really want it to be involved in the Mhz race, where only the fastest speeds will do, which is how Mac and Windows seem to be doing things at the moment. It was the same back when the classic Amiga was around. "Your Amiga with it's 7 Mhz CPU is nothing compared to my PC running it 66Mhz!".
And another point is that you cannot simply buy a x86 CPU that can be passivly cooled - every cpu, even mobile ones run hot and i'm sick of having a computer that makes so much noise. (And yes I have "silent" fans and psu in my computer, it still makes as much noise when cpu intense tasks are running)
(SNIP)
Ermmm, I recall testing a passively cooling Athlon 64 mobile (CG) @800Mhz i.e. I didn't reconnect power for the fan. Each time AMD64 CPU driver kicks clock speed to 2Ghz from BIOS’s (InSyd) default 800Mhz speed it shut down the laptop. Works fine in Windows XP safe mode since AMD64 CPU driver is not activated.
The other heat source comes from GPUs…
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it seems one missed the point and instead ended up providing proof that you buy off the shelf parts at intel/amd while ibm provides any custom made powerpc cpu you might want.
Define custom PowerPC. Atm, only large corporations (e.g. Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft) fund significant customized PPE cores. Not much different to Microsoft’s co-designing AMD64 ISA with AMD.
PPE cores doesn’t equal PPC 970 cores.
co-processors are exactly that, and doesnt give you any more or less customaization options over the cpu. torrenzo doesnt do anything in this league either as it only allows for a series of cpu's to be used in the same socket.
That HTT socket and motherboard infrastructure is available in economic of scale. HTT Socket infrastructure is available from ASUS, Gigabyte, MSI, Tyan, Newsys, Cray, and ‘etc’.
and counters what exactly? ibm has always provided its customers this option for years,
Note that the HTT socket and motherboard infrastructure is available in economic of scale.
while amd only will offer it in 2007 at the earliest.
Factor in third party HTT enabled co-processors i.e. refer to AMD’s “Virtual Gorilla” strategy.
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you cant make something similar to a cell,
.
Why Cell?
AMD has both CPU and GpGPU (assimilated ATI) solutions.
p.a.semi's pwrficient
.
Given its release date, I don't see p.a.semi's pwrficient special i.e. in future vs future comparsions.
or xilinx's programmerble powerpc based on any intel/amd offering without massive production costs.
Qoute SPECInt and SPEC FPU benchmarks for xilinx's programmerble powerpc 4xx based solution.
basicly meaning making a brand new cpu/architecture.
Refer to DRC's FPGA solution (Torrenza HTT socket) or XtremeData's XD1000 workstation (with Torrenza HTT socket Altera FPGA EP2S180).
XtremeData's XD1000 Altera's FPGA EP2S180 has access/own to all 3 HTT links (3X 8GByte/s or 21 GByte/s) and dual MCH DDR333 memory.
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neon32 wrote:
dammy wrote:
Amazing things happen when you keep your ego in check
That could go both ways Dammy.
It's a good thing none of the next generation consoles are using Power PC processors in their machines, or that would surely be a catastrophic business decision..
Note that both Nintendo and Microsoft game consoles are powered by AMD** GPUs.
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you cant make something similar to a cell
Atm, PC world requires different CPU/GPU price and performance points. MS Vista requires X86 solution with GpGPU hence AMD is building SoC packaged Cell like chip i.e. packaged multiple unfied shader SIMD/MIMD units with multi-OOOE X64 cores.
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The real question and problem is "who can port AmigaOS to x86?"
What will happen to AmigaOS4? Will it go to trash? I want to use it today. But can't because there's no hardware worth buying. AmigaOS4 is PPC and and AmigaOS5 will support more CPU's I remember reading.
I am telling you. There is only one option for Amiga (I mean the OS as there's no Amiga left and there won't be any succesfull product) to exist after today. The only was is to move to run on PC architecture. There are several marketing strategies that would work if one was bold enough.
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Thankfully someone who agrees with me, we should all get in touch with Hyperon and ask them to port OS4 over to the x86 arcitecture. As you rightly say, we have no new hardware, PPC, as good as it is is a dead end, so were left with the x86. We all now need to drop this debate about custom chips etc, as that'll never happen. most of the consumer world think that the Amiga's dead.
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"CPU MHz race"
thats just a sales stratagy... and they usually dissapoint in terms of the end products performance.
i never was super impressed by os 3.9. the idea of os4 on ppc was a good leap... ppc is dead. i put my faith in aros way back when. and now it seems to be coming good. i'm looking forward to it on pc as standalone with all the bells and whistles.
even if there was an amiga slanted linux flavour i would love it. atari st too. but i don't want to have to run windows anymore if i don't choose too... os4 on pc sounds good. but is there someone making sure the amiga community has nothing but dead end development? i think i read os 4 is not allowed to run on pc!!! if so you'd better understand someone has a great interest in making sure amiga doesn't succeed... better give aros some love!
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PPC cores, yes. But, they are custom hardware that is most definately off-limits to mere mortals, unless you want to pay license fees up the wazoo through huge contracts Amiga cannot afford. Consoles also don't need certain features reserved for "real" computers.
Note: Most console SDKs don't actually run on the console hardware. They run on workstations that produce code that eventually runs on debug units. I suppose console developers regularly moan about the lack of "custom" hardware in their workstations.
You're quite right that console SDKs run on a seperate workstation, usually PC. We just compile to another target using a compiler supplied as part of the SDK. However thats not to say that you have to do it that way.
The analogy would be writing a demo on an Amiga that when run kills workbench and just bangs the hardware directly to achieve maximum resources and speed.
You could run an OS on a console that built apps for itself using the SDK and did the same. It's simply that the console manufacturer doesn't want you too.
Andy
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[Eric Cartman]
Hyperion/Amiga Inc can suck my balls...
[/Eric Cartman]
Open source is the only way OS4 will stand a chance in the real world and since that's never gonna happen, just forget about it and move on. Think about it realistically for a second. Why would a large corportation abandon all its Win/Mac machines and purchase some obscure piece of custom PPC hardware to run an obscure OS that features no real security nor a decent web browser? Amiga OS is a hobbiest platform, plain and simple. The only way for it to thrive/survive is via an open source model. Amiga stInc. should release the rights to the Amiga community under a GNU and forget about trying to milk the platform for every last cent as this onlt serves to lower the Amiga coffin further into the hole.
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(Sorry, long rant - you have been warned!)
It's too late. Hyperion have always insisted there's no "market" on the x86(read mainstream AMD64/Core2Duo etc.) because of "competition" from other operating systems. Thus they have effectively killed off any remote hope the Amiga had as a platform years ago. Most realistic observers noted that the custom PPC hardware route was going to lead nowhere so it hasn't been a surprise to anyone when things turned out they way they have.
Now the problem of hardware is almost academic. Most people won't give a toss about AOS4 because it's practically in the stone age for software availability. What little there is often turns out to be primitive and relatively expensive.
What's the point of having a nice efficient OS if you have to spend ages jumping through hoops just to get your work done, or have to write your own software because what's available is ten years out of date?
AOS4 (and MorphOS) are following an outdated model. The only comparable OS I can think of is SkyOS - which like them is developed by a small number of people and is sold on a commercial basis. Despite running on commonplace hardware and having an easier API to post applications to, how many SkyOS users do you know?
The problem - and to an extent this is even worse for AROS - is the lack of software. What's the point of a fast responsive OS if there's sweet FA to run on it? Amiga software is now largely vastly outclassed by FREE offerings on Windows and Linux. Being an Amiga user involves sacrifices and that is not a great promotional concept. Having three diverging platforms within the Amiga scene has made things even worse. Look at Sputnik - it's in beta for MorphOS but it needs developers to sweat to port it over to AROS and AOS4. FFS, even if you accept that the platforms shouldn't be binary compatible the APIs should be close enough so that new software would only need a recompile - but no, instead of convergence you have divergence and even further fragmentation. It's nuts I tell you.
Years ago I contributed a short article - more of an opinion really - to the sadly stillborn Amiga.org magazine pilot. It was on the subject of cross-platform APIs and how those who wanted a future for Amiga-like operating systems should make it a priority to get such things ported so that the user base can then inherit a large catalogue of software which could then be easily ported without delay. I still think the failure to address this is as big a nail in the Amiga coffin as the dimwitted insistence on sticking with the 1980s concepts of OS/hardware bundle when no one involved had the resources to be at the cutting edge with such an approach.
Now the years have passed and I don't see any way back. I drifted away from the Amiga scene when my Amithlon system died and I found I had no compelling reason to rebuild it on new hardware - the Amiga had dropped below the threshold of what I need for a usable system, and from what I can see it's been falling even further behind in the time that has passed since then. I don't see any future growth in the Amiga scene - the commercial offerings are virtually dead in the water as viable marketable products and AROS simply lacks the focus and direction to supplant them. That it is still very much the poor man's option in terms of development resources despite the terminal problems suffered by AOS4 and MOS over the past few years is very indicative of its future potential.
I used to advocate porting AOS to the mainstream hardware platform because it made sense to wipe out the handicap of expensive inferior hardware and make it accessible to a wider audience, but I no longer see the point. The development costs and effort involved and the complete lack of a market for AOS on any hardware render any ports irrelevant. AROS is free, but as Bernie Meyer mentions in a parallel thread to this on AWN: what's the point of running AROS on your x86/AMD64/Core2Duo when there's nothing it can do better than the alternatives.
Sorry to be so negative, but reading through forums like AWN and MorphZone simply leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. The same old pipedreams, the same old dogma, the same old prejudices and the same sad pseudo-elitism that was dominant several years ago is still there now. Nothing has been learned.
Like the Neanderthals, the Amiga scene is just too set in its ways to survive in the long term and this makes me sad to see. Every time I come back to the forums to find out what's been going on I see hardly anything has progressed, month after months, season aafter season, yera after year.
Time to decide: is the Amiga scene about commercial interests or just a hobby? Is it about offering users an experience they can't get elsewhere or about keeping nostalgia alive? It can't be a bit of everything any more.
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@stone
Power efficient?? lol :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Then why Apple ditched ppc laptops if favour of intel chips?
Yeah, they were huge calefactors.
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bhoggett "i told you so..." would have saved all that effort! i don't like m$. so there is a gap in the market! i would like amiga os type os in any form on pc, yes as part of nostalgia.
you can't win the lottery without buying a ticket. don't give up yet. you never know what you'll find till you get there... amiga did shape much of the home computing experience and expectations. m$'s blueprint doesn't suit me. i disagree with the polices they have and they are seen to be the law. i would not use windows if both drm and ebay didn't exist. i dislike m$ for these reasons also. if i buy a cheap game off ebay and it gives it dos or windows requirements it usually won't run and i use dosbox (third party app.) to get it working... so much for an "operating system" that doesn't operate! wtf am i paying ms for??? thank you dosbox. if that didn't exist i would have given up on classic games. i also find that with most games, why it's just the ones i buy i don't know, that they don't run on one set of hardware... but fine on another pc. M$ EXPECT ME TO BUY A LICENCE BECAUSE THEY CAN'T MAKE IT WORK ON THE ONE PC I WANT TO USE IT ON!!! i was going to email bill about this how can you sell an operating system that doesn't operate? trade disriptions act??? good luck in thinking m$ are your savour... i doubt anyone will benefit from their company, but them. (they don't listen to their customers.)
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@bhoggett
Great post. You hit the nail right on the head. :-)
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monami wrote:
bhoggett "i told you so..." would have saved all that effort!
I wrote a long reply to this, but then deleted it since you obviously don't read longs posts carefully. Let me summarise instead: you didn't get a word of what I wrote.
In a somewhat ironic way, this illustrates exactly why the Amiga scene has failed so miserably to stop the rot. It's become so insular and close-minded that it can't even understand the principles by which it sticks to so dilligently have been obsoleted years ago.
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Well composed and likely destined to be ill-received for the same reasons that it's so accurate.
The only wrinkle I would add is that it was a legion of second generation evangelists that took up the mantle that the Amiga could displace other mainstream, general-purpose platforms. Their intentions were likely genuine, but in most respects it ended up doing more harm than good.
The yardstick for 'success' is always a difficult one. First generation Amiga users did not entertain thoughts of the platform taking over the world -- they hoped that it would survive and be recognized as a legitimate niche player.
Since OS4 was announced, Hyperion has always been more vocal in maintaining that running on a mainstream processor would erode the remaining spirit of the system and encourage piracy. The first point has always been troubling -- in the decade since Commodore evaporated very few people still exist with their head in the sand. It's not like we don't all interact with Windows, Linux or MacOS to some extent on a daily basis. The piracy argument is equally distressing. Target a market that will pay for products and services and forget the rest. Piracy is inevitable.
In the end, we've really had to endure 12 years of folly and the main culprit here has been those that own and ctonrol the IP.
Could 'success' still be achieved in today's market? I'm convinced it's possible. Can this be achieved with no clear vision and no one helming the ship? Hardly.
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Have a look at this interview with Ben Hermans:
interview (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/emulators/hyperionblast.html)
It lists some of Hyperion's flawed reasons for not targetting OS4 at x86 ("Because then everybody would be using Windows instead!!!") :roll:
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humppa wrote:
Have a look at this interview with Ben Hermans:
interview (http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/emulators/hyperionblast.html)
It lists some of Hyperion's flawed reasons for not targetting OS4 at x86 ("Because then everybody would be using Windows instead!!!") :roll:
:lol:
It's good that even monumental stupidity gets recorded these days - if only so future decision makers can read and learn. OTOH, learning from past mistakes is an ability bred out of Amiga decision makers years ago. One might as well try to teach a stone.
AOS today is exactly where it deserves to be. Harsh but true. That's why some of us were left with no option but to move on - better than hanging onto the coattails of fools, hoping one day they'll see the light.
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"" Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the xx86.""
I just can´t get where I've seen this topic before :-D
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tomazkid wrote:
"" Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the xx86.""
I just can´t get where I've seen this topic before :-D
:lol:
The Frieden's should be happy that there are still so many people interested in OS4 after all this time of failed promises and missed deadlines. They should be happy that there are people AT ALL who are interested in OS4 on ANY sort of platform.
I wonder if that new website of the "true Amigans" would be so tolerant to allow people discussing such condemnable wishes (buying OS4 from Hyperion and running it on available hardware). :lol:
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humppa wrote:
The Frieden's should be happy that there are still so many people interested in OS4 after all this time of failed promises and missed deadlines. They should be happy that there are people AT ALL who are interested in OS4 on ANY sort of platform.
And YOU should be grateful thats there's actually someone out there willing to put all the effort and dedication into keeping the Amiga OS going.
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_ThEcRoW wrote:
@stone
Power efficient?? lol :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:
Then why Apple ditched ppc laptops if favour of intel chips?
Yeah, they were huge calefactors.
How many x86 chips can you buy at the moment that run at 3 Watts peak output huh?
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And YOU should be grateful thats there's actually someone out there willing to put all the effort and dedication into keeping the Amiga OS going.
I am. :-)
That's why I wish that their effort and dedication is not completely pointless.
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woz111 wrote:
I think that Hyperion should port the Amiga OS over to the PC platform now, due to the death of the promised power-pc motherboards etc and a total lack of new hardware for the amiga. It's now only a matter of time before our beloved platform dies out forever. You can get new pc motherboards for under £30? Think of the possibilities, Hyperion could develop OS 4 for the pc platform with a specific setup requirement. What do you all think?
if a day WinUAE will emulate PPC cpu...we can use both MOS and OS4 system..
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"Have a look at this interview with Ben Hermans"
Isn't that interview like 5 years old now :roll:
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if a day WinUAE will emulate PPC cpu...we can use both MOS and OS4 system..
Not going to happen. (http://classicos.ptgamers.com/EntrevistaToniWilenWinUAE.pdf)
Isn't that interview like 5 years old now
Yes and the funny thing is that they still state the same nowadays. :roll:
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Heres a thought.
Why not have the best of both worlds or even all worlds.
With Multi-core, isn't it about time, we saw a die convergence.
Intel, PPC, Itanic, Sparc, ARM etc all on one die. Then the issue goes away. The architecture can be built around that.
A man for a seasons. A CPU that is everything.
Shaz
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You mean the 'codemorphing' debacle which Transmeta tried?
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odin wrote:
You mean the 'codemorphing' debacle which Transmeta tried?
In a word......No. :)
Shaz
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Still beating this dead cow???
It's *NOT* going to happen.
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Amiga OS 4 should be ported over to the xx86.
No.
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Methuselas wrote:
Still beating this dead cow???
It's *NOT* going to happen.
...its horse.
:-P
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(http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g154/Odd_Job/BeatDeadHorse.gif)
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x86? Please... Everybody knows that the future of Amiga lies in the hands of Nintendo.
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great i can't wait to see it on my gameboy. :-?
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This, I can't have my operating system on a PPC, I'm going to cry . I heard all this b***ching from the "diehard" Mac fans when their stuff went to Intel processors.
eeerrrHHH!!!!! is not this exactly what you x86 lovers are doing??????-----------> I can´t have my operating system on a x86 then i´m going to cry and make noise :roll:
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Fransexy_ wrote:
This, I can't have my operating system on a PPC, I'm going to cry . I heard all this b***ching from the "diehard" Mac fans when their stuff went to Intel processors.
eeerrrHHH!!!!! is not this exactly what you x86 lovers are doing??????-----------> I can´t have my operating system on a x86 then i´m going to cry and make noise :roll:
No. The people who want it ported to x86 want so they can have access to it. The people who only want it on PPC want to make sure other people don't get it.
Of course, x86 users stand to lose relatively little from OS4 not being ported. OTOH, there is no future whatsoever for a PPC-only desktop OS. It will exist for a while and then die through natural wastage because it has no way of attracting fresh blood. It would struggle to keep going for very long even as an OSS hobby project, but as a commercial enterprise it's already as dead as the proverbial Mauritius giant pigeon.
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I just had a couple of thoughts on this from someone who loves the classic amiga for what they were and what they are...
I have 5 PCs, 2 Amigas, 5 beige power macs (rescued from the trash 3 G3s and 1 G4).
The PCs I have are all 64-bit amd machines except one is an X2 dual core processor.. I am currently lucky enough to be running Windows Vista X64 on that and one other machine (yes the 64 bit vista). The other two active machines one is running Windows Vista Home Premium 32bit and Vista Business 32bit.
Since I have installed this RTM release I haven't had one problem with memory, any BSOD (Blue Screens of Death) and for the most part great compatibility (no past software that doesn't run). Each machine has gig of memory, and a USB flash drive that's at least a gig with system boost enabled on it (it moves the swap file out to the very fast USB drive). Only one of my machines doesn't support aero glass but every other feature works great, it's my business laptop anyway and doesn't really need it.
The 64bit performance especially on the dual core box is amazing. It has an Nvidia 6800GS pci express graphics card which boosts my system rating to a 4.5 on their benchmarking index that comes with the machine.
Anyway my point of talking about all of this is as follows would I run Amiga OS 4 if it were ported? At this point probably not, it would lack all the shader functionality for graphics that I already have and comparing Amiga graphics to DirectX 10 is like comparing it to direct x 1.0.. The comparison doesn't hold water for me anymore (even with pull down screens which I still think is Amiga's neatest feature).
I do like AROS and that works fine for me, I boot it whenever I am feeling nostalgic. If more cool unique software comes out for it, I might be inclined to set up a box to dual boot into it, but at the moment WinAROS running as a virtual machine is just fine (plus I can run multiple instances with the Dual core support of windows asymetric multiprocessing. I used to have a Dual processor pentium back in the original pentium days, that did some killer stuff with photoshop and the dual cpu support. I am glad to see this kinda support hasn't changed. Wish an amiga like OS could take advantage of it..
When I am nostalgic and wanting the old games I have moved my entire Amiga collection to ADF and I simply boot up winUAE which works wonderfully for the stuff I do..
Simply put what would OS4 give me? With the classic Amiga's I was attracted to it's big library of graphics design programs which are no longer available (well yes they are in PC versions that you can buy, the best anyway).. If I were to look at cheap PC hardware all of the PCI cards that are supported on OS4 boards they look like a garage sale from a few years ago. We all want Radeon x1950s here these days versus a 7000. If OS 4 supports just the features of a 7000 then it's behind the times. Simply put I probably couldn't go out and buy
even on the cheap rack some of the stuff that is supported here in the USA.. It needs better device support.
OS4 would be nice on x86 but I firmly believe the time that they could even be succesful with that has come and gone. About the time BeOS was new would have been their opportunity. Now with things like Vista Media Center it just doesn't make sense to do an OS4. Maybe an OS5 :-)
Either way I agree with Hyperion not doing OS4 for the PC, it's not needed there is much better stuff out there. Maybe an OS 5 though would be cool. These guys are really innovative and if given an opportunity with new hardware and new features I think they'd do something incredible.
Don't relagate them to duplicating OS4 especially with the state it's in with support, which is not Hyperion's fault blame the hardware people and A Inc for that.
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@woz11,
What do you all think?
I think OS4 is already beyond the point of no return.
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jorkany wrote:
@woz11,
What do you all think?
I think OS4 is already beyond the point of no return.
No more or less so than MorphOS. It's not the OS or the code or the amount of work required that's the problem - it's the lack of will, and in this respect AOS4 and MOS are brothers in arms. Both are therefore ultimately doomed - it's just a matter of time.
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@ DonnyEMU
Each machine has gig of memory, and a USB flash drive that's at least a gig with system boost enabled on it (it moves the swap file out to the very fast USB drive).
What's the use of that? Wouldn't have it been better and cheaper to just add one more GiB of RAM on the mobo instead? Also, doesn't flash ram have an upper limit on how many times it can be written to?
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@DonnyEMU,
Either way I agree with Hyperion not doing OS4 for the PC, it's not needed there is much better stuff out there.
I agree there is much better stuff out there, but this is not the reasoning the Hyperion non-representative employees have given for not porting OS4 to x86.
Maybe an OS 5 though would be cool.
What firm information about OS5 do you have that leads you to believe this?
These guys are really innovative
Innovative how? Examples please.