Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Matt_H on September 22, 2006, 06:53:06 AM
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Just got it installed on my Peg today. Still need to do more to get a functional system up, but my first impressions are not so good :-(
I'm finding Ambient clunky and unintuitive and ModeEdit keeps locking up the system, so I can't get any screenmodes defined. Can't seem to get Miami online either.
More reports as I get more things operational...
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I had the same impressions of Ambient initially. The newer versions are _much_ better, so I would strongly recommend you install the latest nightly build. Just make sure you install MUI4 first.
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moto
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Use the latest Ambient. If you don't like it you can always use ScalOS, DOpus5 (with the patch to view PNG icons) or WorkBench3.9 (thanks to Elena Novaretti it's not very difficult. You'll have to patch workbench.library).
Try the latest Ambient, IMHO it's great but if you don't like it install the old good WB3.9 with the Elena Novaretti patches and tools.
BTW, the ModeEdit crashes are very rare, I have never made it lock up.
Do you use a Peg1 or a Peg2?
Register here (http://www.morphos-team.net/) to have access to the support mailing list (and to download the 3d drivers).
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Matt_H wrote:
ModeEdit keeps locking up the system, so I can't get any screenmodes defined. Can't seem to get Miami online either.
Wow, how you did this? I have never managed to crash the system using modeedit, ever. And I mean, when I bought my TFT I deleted everything and made new modes during 2-3 days for several times.
And MiamiDX works also 100% ok. Are you sure your cable is connected to correct plug, not to the gb-eth? Sure you are using the correct eth-device?
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Regarding Ambient we are interested to know how it could be made better :-)
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Matt_H wrote:
Just got it installed on my Peg today. Still need to do more to get a functional system up, but my first impressions are not so good :-(
Well... what model of peg is it?
Pegasos 1 or 2?
And Ambient Version is that released with MOS 1.4.5 or prior than this?
I must say that Ambient of MOS 1.4.5 is not a wonder of the wonders Guided User Interface.
It is just quite good and usable, but not excellent.
Infacts, for example "Doctor Morbius FP" - Fulvio Peruggi, one of the best Morphers worldwide and a man with a great reputation here in Italy and also on morphzone.org community, he still prefer far better his DirOpus Magellan Interface.
Try to install MUI4 (it is a BETA) and last nightly build of Ambient, or the last stable version.
It has been very improved!
I'm finding Ambient clunky and unintuitive and ModeEdit keeps locking up the system, so I can't get any screenmodes defined. Can't seem to get Miami online either.
If you get some problems regarding these programs, visit morphzone.org forum to get help with experienced users...
http://www.morphzone.org
But first just check the priceless BOOK OF PEGASOS online
at this site:
http://www.wikipeg.org/
It will guide you thru managing all the OS in its deep.
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@ itix
Please, strongly increase the density of invisible grid to which icons are automatically aligned, or even get rid of that annoying grid and let the user drag icons dot by dot like it is on classic Workbench.
Please, let the user put some system resources' infos on the top Ambient's bar like total- in use- free ram, cpu usage, opened screens and so on.
Have not the latest nightly built and may be the above things already exist in Ambient. :-)
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r-tea wrote:
@ itix
Please, strongly increase the density of invisible grid to which icons are automatically aligned, or even get rid of that annoying grid and let the user drag icons dot by dot like it is on classic Workbench.
Please, let the user put some system resources' infos on the top Ambient's bar like total- in use- free ram, cpu usage, opened screens and so on.
Have not the latest nightly built and may be the above things already exist in Ambient. :-)
This has been discussed many times, and I remember one solution suggested being a qualifierkey to pixelprecise positioning. Don't know if it was ever realised though.
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@r-tea
The latest Ambient builds have an option to emulate Workbench mode.
Edit Advanced.conf in SYS:Prefs/Ambient and uncomment line having
autosort = false
This option might get into main prefs too.
System info in screen title bar doesnt really belong to Ambient and I
dont see any reason why this should be limited to Ambient screen only.
It is better done at Intuition level, maybe by expanding title bar
clock. Or you could install MCP :-)
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Phew! Lots of stuff to respond to. :-)
@ motorollin
Yes, new Ambient and MUI4 are among my first plans when I get Miami working.
@ hooligan
Trying to adjust the parameters of a 320x240 mode (while testing) freezes the machine entirely. Had to do a hard reset.
@ itix
Heh, it's nice to be in a community where we can have an open discussion with developers :-). I see that Workbench-style icon arrangement is already planned, to which I say "Hooray!" I'd also like to see the contents of the context menus available from the titlebar menu.
@ others
Regarding Miami, it's a strange problem. It goes online and I can ping the other machine (my 4000T) on my little subnet, I can get DNS information resolved, but I can't access anything outside my university's domain name. I don't have this problem under Debian, but the same thing happened under MOLK and PegXMac. Hardware is a shiny new Peg2 and yes, I'm using the correct ethernet port. I was chalking it up to Linux weirdness, but the fact it's happening on the Amiga side too (and that my Miami install/settings are copied directly from the 4000) is beginning to bother me.
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@Matt_H
Why don't you try MOSNet? It's free, PPC native, and dead easy to set up. I had it working within minutes.
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moto
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Crumb:
"DOpus5 (with the patch to view PNG icons)"
Umm.. you have patch which shows PNG icons _inside_ DOpus5? Or do you mean that you run DOpus5 beside the Ambient?
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I just got Envoy working, so I'll be trying that momentarily.
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Umm.. you have patch which shows PNG icons _inside_ DOpus5? Or do you mean that you run DOpus5 beside the Ambient?
DOpus 5 has its own icon library which cannot handle PNG Icons if you run DOpus as Workbench Replacement.
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"DOpus 5 has its own icon library which cannot handle PNG Icons if you run DOpus as Workbench Replacement."
Yes, but what's that patch mentioned?
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So it turns out that my networking problem wasn't actually a problem.
Even though I couldn't ping anything outside my university network, web access works fine. I just double checked my A4000 and it can't ping anything either.
So I'll chalk this one up to "Campus I.T. Being Annoying" and start to get this system operational :-)
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So how are you getting on with Ambient? Have you tried the more recent version?
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moto
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So how are you getting on with Ambient? Have you tried the more recent version?
Is it wise to update Ambient on a MOS PUP installation? I read somewhere that it might crawl on BPPC since it still has debugging mode enabled.
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@ itix
autosort = false
Got this set already.
I noticed that this often freezes the whole system if I try drag an icon precisely (a couple pixels only). I'll put it on the Bugtracker soon.
System info in screen title bar doesnt really belong to Ambient and I
dont see any reason why this should be limited to Ambient screen only.
Hmmm... on classic system Workbench screen is which it's just limited to and (I assume) we (all Amiga users) allways found it quite handy. Switching screens was allways so fast end easy then I never lack this on other screens.
But I'll not object to implement it in MOS for all screens. :-)
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@ motorollin
Having a bit of trouble with newer Ambient. I think it's an MUI problem. Could you point me to the current MUI beta? I think the one I have is too old.
EDIT: Nevermind. Was using too old an Ambient snapshot. Everything's looking good now.
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@humppa
He's using a Peg, not PUP.
@Matt_H
What do you think of Ambient now you have updated it?
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moto
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@motorollin
He's using a Peg, not PUP.
I know, i know, but I just thought I could jump in with a little OT question, sorry. ;-)
So could anyone tell me if the Ambient nightly builds still have debugging enabled? If not, I would give it a try and update.
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Oh ok sorry, I thought you were asking on behalf of Matt_H. I have a very recent Ambient nightly build installed on my PegII and it has debug menus. Not sure whether that means it is actually debugging or not. It would be nice if this was an option!
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moto
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I have a very recent Ambient nightly build installed on my PegII and it has debug menus. Not sure whether that means it is actually debugging or not. It would be nice if this was an option!
I read somewhere that nightly builds might have Debugging enabled, which slows down Ambient. This shouldn't be much of a problem on a fast Pegasos 2, but it might seriously affect performance on a rather slow BPPC.
From what I read, the only possibility is to do a manual recompile without debugging.
Does somebody have some more info on this?
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Nightly builds have debug enabled. To get rid of debug one must change debug flag in source code (config.h) and recompile.
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itix wrote:
Nightly builds have debug enabled. To get rid of debug one must change debug flag in source code (config.h) and recompile.
Thanks for the info, itix! I think i'll better get 1.43.0 CVS instead then. Is it advisable to install that also on the Powerup version of MOS?
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@Itix:
Regarding Ambient we are interested to know how it could be made better
Could you add AmigaOS3.9 like shortcuts? there's a lot of people used to the old shortcuts. Or at least make it user configurable.
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@humppa
Thanks for the info, itix! I think i'll better get 1.43.0 CVS instead then. Is it advisable to install that also on the Powerup version of MOS?
Honestly I dont know. It is probably better than ancient Ambient SE on MorphOS CD - more features and less bugs. It is just that nightly builds have even less bugs and more features at expense of debug stuff.
Btw where you got your nickname?
@crumb
Could you add AmigaOS3.9 like shortcuts?
What is AmigaOS 3.9 like shortcut?
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I noticed that this often freezes the whole system if I try drag an icon precisely (a couple pixels only). I'll put it on the Bugtracker soon.
Hmm... for these kind of things we need a debug log...
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Honestly I dont know. It is probably better than ancient Ambient SE on MorphOS CD - more features and less bugs.
Alright, I think I will give it a try then. The version from the PUP-ISO is lacking many features that are hopefully introduced in later versions (e.g. easy snapshot and copy functions for icons and something like a "refresh" function by right-clicking). But since I am a MOS-noob, I also could have just missed a way to activate them.
Btw where you got your nickname?
I bought it from the crazy Finns. :-P
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Crumb,
shortcuts are configurable and allow to run internal/amigados/workbench/rexx commands.
Thg,
Grid can indeed be disabled by pressing alt when dragging.
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@hummpa
Don't forget that if you install the latest versions of Ambient you will also have to install MUI4 which is also debug enabled and afaik you can't disable this.
Anyway, i would be interested to see a performance comparison from you, in case that you decide to install them. :-)
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Don't forget that if you install the latest versions of Ambient you will also have to install MUI4 which is also debug enabled and afaik you can't disable this.
I did that yesterday. First installed the latest MUI4 beta, then the Ambient binary 1.43.0 CVS with the installer script.
The speed is fine, I don't see much of a difference really. So if there is debugging enabled in either MUI4 or Ambient, it doesn't slow down the system too much.
However, I have stability problems now. After a certain time playing around with the desktop, Ambient freezes and the "is meditating"-message is displayed.
Further, I get an instant freeze when selecting any of the "About" options in the titlebar menu.
There seems to be a problem with MUI4, since it still shows up as version "3.9" in the Prefs. Is there a tutorial somewhere how to install MUI4 properly and which of the old 3.9-files should be kept?
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MUI4 files are installed inside MOSSYS drawer. That is, MUI classes go to MOSSYS:Classes/MUI, libraries go to MOSSYS:Libs and so on.
You dont have to touch MUI 3.9 files at all. Some 3.9 files are obsolete but having them on the disk doesnt hurt either.
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@Matt_H
What do you think of Ambient now you have updated it?
@ motorollin
I'm liking it more, now. :-)
The 9/24 CVS version was a little unstable (though that may have been due to some other changes I was working with), so I scaled back to the 9/14 version and it seems fine. A little buggy, but nothing fatally so.
@ others
Regarding debug, the 'ramdebug' boot flag is your friend! (Don't know if PowerUp versions have it though) MUI4 stuff is a lot faster with it set.
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Regarding debug, the 'ramdebug' boot flag is your friend! (Don't know if PowerUp versions have it though) MUI4 stuff is a lot faster with it set.
Yep, 'ramdebug' is even set as default in the PowerUP-startup-sequence.
Finally got to install MUI4 beta properly (is there any more recent version than 20060605?) and Ambient is working fine so far. No odd freezes like before. :-)
Now I only need to get some network-hardware (8139 from my Mediator is not supported of course, only option is PCMCIA now I guess?).
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@ humppa
I've actually got the one from April. Could you point me to that one?
EDIT: Nevermind, found it.
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@Fab12&Itix
Last time I tried it out I didn't find the option. I was thinking in RightAmiga+"+" and RightAmiga+"-" to Show/Hide icons, and also RightAmiga+1/2/3/4/5 to change the view mode from icons to list by name, date, size...
I haven't tried latest build so I'll have to give it a go.
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Crumb,
in prefs/keyboard you can see hotkeys to cycle through available modes and submodes for a given view (numpad 5 & 8 by default). If you need more control, you can add your own hotkeys and play with internal commands.
But it's true there's no internal command to sort listview by a given attribute at the moment (will be fixed very soon).
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Matt_H wrote:
@ humppa
I've actually got the one from April. Could you point me to that one?
EDIT: Nevermind, found it.
Not too stable actually: I always get crashes when I try to switch between "List" and "Icon" view mode in windows. I already had this before with other Ambient beta versions.
Can anybody recommend a "stable" beta release, or does somebody have a link to a recent release with debugging disabled?
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humppa,
This behaviour is definitely not normal, it looks like a bad mui4 installation to me. CVS versions are most of the time stable, and such obvious crash bugs don't stay long on cvs. Ultimately, if mui4 is well installed, you may try to delete ambient prefs (sys:prefs/ambient/ambient.prefs[.bak]]), in case you ran into some prefs conflict.
And a non-debug version won't change anything about your stability issues.
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This behaviour is definitely not normal, it looks like a bad mui4 installation to me. CVS versions are most of the time stable, and such obvious crash bugs don't stay long on cvs. Ultimately, if mui4 is well installed, you may try to delete ambient prefs (sys:prefs/ambient/ambient.prefs[.bak]]), in case you ran into some prefs conflict.
Thanks, I will try that. Is there any known difference in stability between the two different MUI4 alpha versions (2005 and 06/2006)?
And a non-debug version won't change anything about your stability issues.
Yes, I know. This question was somewhat unrelated to the other ones. I was just thinking, because since the majority of MOS-users seem to be using recent CVS versions, it would be nice if there could be an intermediate non-debug version now and then. :-)
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Ok, some further testing. MUI4 is up and running fine. I then tried different Ambient-versions.
1.41: no crashes
1.42: no crashes when switching between Icon-view and List-view
1.43: tried several nightly builds and always Ambient crashes.
I really would like to try out the "official" 1.43 (non nightly), but the link to GGS doesn't work.
Does anybody have a working link to "Ambient_1.43.tar.gz"
The one on this site doesn't work. (http://morphosambient.sourceforge.net/) Thanks!
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Quote by Crumb:
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you can always use ScalOS, DOpus5 (with the patch to view PNG icons)
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Is the DOPUS5 patch also available for classic amiga ?
And where can I find it ??
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humppa:
Well, I hope the Ambient Devs won't kill me, however I can give you one of my compiles I do from time
to time. It has debug disabled, but e.g. Icon hover effects enabled (this is one reason I do my own compiles)
However, before you download it, please note this: This is *no* official Release from the Ambient Team, so please don't
even think about to ask them if something went wrong with this particular Ambient Version! As I can't code, just accidently
know how to type make into a shell, I can't help you either. If it works for you, fine, If not, bad luck then.
Also, to avoid this archive beeing linked and spread widely, It will be online only for the next 24 hours, so get it while
it's (almost) hot (its a snapshot from 20.9.06)
Again, please don't ask for support. You can get the archive here (http://www.oli-hummel.de/temp/ambient-1.43.tgz)
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@Blade
Thanks so much! :-)
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Thanks, I will try that. Is there any known difference in stability between the two different MUI4 alpha versions (2005 and 06/2006)?
I don't know if there are any actual differences in stability, but from what i've heard the latest MUI4 causes some MUI apps to misbehave, not to crash.
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@Blade
This version is working perfectly so far! It's the first 1.43 compile that doesn't crash when changing between "List" and "Icon-mode". Further, speedwise it's great on my PowerUP-install since debugging is disabled. Again, thanks a lot! :-)
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Well, thank the Ambient Team, they did a great job so far, I just did a compile which isn't exactly
high Science. However it is nice to hear it works for you :) Oh and dunno whether Ambient allready requires
the latest latest Mui Version (I doubt it) you may want to try the official Mui Alpha Release from last year or so,
simply because it is IIRC also a non debug Version which should be noticable faster on a Power Up System.
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you may want to try the official Mui Alpha Release from last year or so,
simply because it is IIRC also a non debug Version which should be noticable faster on a Power Up System.
I don't know if this means anything or not, but if you version the new mui systems files, you will see a DEBUG indication. Also, they are much bigger in size.
I assume that we are talking about this version?:
http://www.sasg.com/mui/mui4alpha_mos_20050714.lha
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I don't know if this means anything or not, but if you version the new mui systems files, you will see a DEBUG indication.
It's actually also visible from MUI-Prefs when you select the "About" menu (DEBUG in red letters).
I assume that we are talking about this version?: http://www.sasg.com/mui/mui4alpha_mos_20050714.lha
Yes, that's the last non-debug version that I know of. Actually, I happen to have different newer versions, but I think they are all DEBUG if I am not mistaken. The 20060605 surely is DEBUG.
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@hummpa
Ok.
I have just installed Ambient 1.43 and i find it good. At startup, it consumes only (about) an extra MB from version 1.41.
I haven't test it for CPU usage but it feels almost as fast as v1.41 was. The system monitor reports a _significant_ increase in CPU usage, though, but perhaps it's because it has a graph in this version and the graph steals some CPU cycles.
Btw, i have found that directories which has an old Amiga icon are not clickable! You can not double-click them, move them or anything. You have to do a RMB click and select "open". Do you have this problem?
EDIT: corrections
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Btw, i have found that directories which has an old Amiga icon are not clickable! You can double-click them, move them or anything. You have to do a RMB and select "open". Do you have this problem?
Yes, I have the same problem with old WB2.04-style icons (e.g. the drawer of Sysinfo). Are you using the Ambient-version that Blade posted? You *can* double-click those icons, but you have to click something like 20 pixels above, then it works. I wonder if later Ambient-builds have the same problem.
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Yes, i'm using blade's compile and it probably has to do with its "Icon hover effects". The problem doesn't occur with other versions.
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This offset bug for click area (easily visible with old magicwb icons) was recently introduced after some changes in icon layout code and has just been fixed.
What's the problem with icon-hovering ?
By the way, mui4 from july 2005 was also a debug version, so i'd suggest you stick to latest version as many bugs were fixed since.
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This offset bug for click area (easily visible with old magicwb icons) was recently introduced after some changes in icon layout code and has just been fixed.
Cool. I would just love to have a non-debug compile of that. ;-)
By the way, mui4 from july 2005 was also a debug version, so i'd suggest you stick to latest version as many bugs were fixed since.
Really? There is no debug-info in the Prefs and the file-sizes are a lot smaller. Is there any non-debug version that became available after July at all?
edit: according to this thread (http://www.morphzone.org/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4383&forum=9) you are right. I really wish there would be at least one non-debug version every few months. Don't forget the PowerUp users! ;-)