Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: jarrody2k on September 16, 2006, 06:48:02 PM
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Hi folks,
With Bill's recent post there was a point of ridicule at Amiga Inc's requirement for a hardware partner to have >= 500 000 USD of revenue to be considered. Given the Amiga publics' general evaluation of the Amiga technologies some thought this request was a little smug. I, however, think this is a reasonable if not underestimated expectation of a company that is willing to roll-out and support its own computer hardware. Even the big hardware companies can't get it right, releasing motherboards with a plethora of hardware bugs and software workarounds which slow the system down.
But I digress. What is more interesting is the public evaluation of the worth of Amiga technologies. Clearly a lot of people base their evaluations that profits will only come from the existing base of Amiga enthusiasts. Perhaps there are opportunities waiting to be exposed in the private sector? Perhaps we are being narrow-minded?
What are your thoughts on how much the Amiga technologies are worth? What else could they be used for? Is there even any scope for the AmigaOS in the new millenium?
Can Amiga Inc expect a potential hardware partner with 500 thousand dollar minimum revenue?
Jarrod.
-Edit- Sorry, added an extra 0 to the price!
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The $5 000 000 Question: How much is Amiga *worth*?
The brand name if put up for auction would get somewhere in the low 5 figures. Maybe $10,000 - $20,000.
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redrumloa wrote:
The $5 000 000 Question: How much is Amiga *worth*?
The brand name if put up for auction would get somewhere in the low 5 figures. Maybe $10,000 - $20,000.
Heheh, harsh!
At that estimate, maybe Bill should have been happy with the $70 000 he got from the liquidated inventory after all? ;)
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With Bill's recent post there was a point of ridicule at Amiga Inc's requirement for a hardware partner to have >= 5 000 000 USD of revenue to be considered.
I believe the actual number stated was $500,000 USD. Not nearly as outlandish. However, that mark still puts anything "Amiga" branded outside the means and scale of the hobby community. I doubt even the largest players in the remaining Amiga community (Individual, Elbox, etc.) turn that in a year.
I'm guessing that there is a bit of spite in Bill's statements. He invested (possibly mis-invested, but invested, all the same) a lot of time, effort, sweat, tears, and money into Amiga. He threw away a lot of posh management job credentials to chase this beast. At this stage, I guess he wants either a "home run" (some insane large company to swoop in and save the day) or nothing.
In reality, though, I think that the time for a "home run" came and went. There is nothing interesting about the Amiga IP, other than the name and the Amiga OS ROMs (capatalizing on the retro / hobby market).
Can Amiga Inc expect a potential hardware partner with 5 million dollar minimum revenue?
Magic 8-ball says "HIGHLY DOUBTFUL"
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Ilwrath wrote:
I believe the actual number stated was $500,000 USD. Not nearly as outlandish. However, that mark still puts anything "Amiga" branded outside the means and scale of the hobby community.
Cheers for the correction. I originally read it correctly and then somehow mixed it up when I was writing the post.
I agree that the hobby market is out of the question. I don't think it really was in the question. But I really can't imagine why anyone would bother with developing an OS (and then building another) unless there is some sort of marketable aspect of the technology.. some way that current big market players could utilise its functionality that they either can't with other technologies *or* can't for at least the same price.
So Bill is either very brave or very very stupid?
What *is* he trying to sell?
Also, does anyone know anything about the IBM 'Arctic' platform he mentioned?
Jarrod.
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jarrody2k wrote:
But I digress. What is more interesting is the public evaluation of the worth of Amiga technologies. Clearly a lot of people base their evaluations that profits will only come from the existing base of Amiga enthusiasts. Perhaps there are opportunities waiting to be exposed in the private sector? Perhaps we are being narrow-minded?
I rather doubt it. AmigaOS has been allowed to more or less stagnate over the past 5 years. With only basic memory protection, its only saving grace in the increasingly networked world we live in is its obscurity.
The total market for AmigaOS right now is the retrocomputing market. There are much more modern operating systems out there, including Linux which can be downloaded for free, which are much better choices for desktop and embedded applications.
From what I've read, MorphOS is at least a step in the right direction with their "Q-Box", but that's not an Amiga property. Even there, how many MorphOS users are out there?
I hesitate to put a dollar figure on Amiga's assets because I don't know everything they own. But let's just say I see little value in the company beyond the name, and even that is of limited value these days.
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csixty4 wrote:
With only basic memory protection, its only saving grace in the increasingly networked world we live in is its obscurity.
I don't think memory protection is really a defining issue. Only really setting a few coprocessor registers for each context change. The real issue, from memory, was cache coherency due to a limitation of the Articia chip. This would only mean that the cache is flushed before a context switch. (Modified cache lines written back. Unmodified lines dirtied). This would slow down switching between threads, hampering Amiga's fine reputation for fast thread changes, but it isn't going to shake up our networked world. Especially if a hardware solution exists later down the track that eliminates this problem.
But then I don't have an entire understanding of OS kernel implementation. Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong :)
Jarrod.
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The real issue, from memory, was cache coherency due to a limitation of the Articia chip. This would only mean that the cache is flushed before a context switch.
That's nonsense. The broken articia cache coherency affect DMA transfers (cache isn't always invalidated, thus as a workaround with CachePreDMA/CachePostDMA is needed). Normally with fully cache snooping hardware (such as Articia was supposed to be), no such CachePreDMA/CachePostDMA magic is required.
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How much money are we talking here? Five hundred thousand, fifty thousand, or five thousand? Didn't follow the line about corrections and correcting the corrected corrections, etc.. Also, dollars or euros?
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@stopthegop
There seems to be 2 different themes here.
1) Amiga Inc's licensing requirements. Bill Mc has stated this to be $500,000, a company must be grossing this much to request a license.
2) What people think Amiga Inc as a company themelves are worth at this point in time.
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My best guessamate is between $20K and $90K, depending on well they have their IP squared away. Unless your looking at it to bash Hyperion over the head with, then it could be pricesless. :popcorn:
Dammy
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redrumloa wrote:
The $5 000 000 Question: How much is Amiga *worth*?
The brand name if put up for auction would get somewhere in the low 5 figures. Maybe $10,000 - $20,000.
I honestly think the brand name would sell for more than that.
The Amiga brand might not be as strong as the commodore brand, but alot of gamers still have found memories of Amiga games.
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Piru wrote:
The real issue, from memory, was cache coherency due to a limitation of the Articia chip. This would only mean that the cache is flushed before a context switch.
That's nonsense. The broken articia cache coherency affect DMA transfers (cache isn't always invalidated, thus as a workaround with CachePreDMA/CachePostDMA is needed). Normally with fully cache snooping hardware (such as Articia was supposed to be), no such CachePreDMA/CachePostDMA magic is required.
Hi Piru,
No need to go on the offensive about my 'nonsense' and such. I did say I was a bit misinformed and I was indeed expecting your tech-savvy corrections ;) Which makes me wonder now, what exactly is wrong with AmigaOS4's memory protection?
Jarrod.
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redrumloa wrote:
@stopthegop
There seems to be 2 different themes here.
1) Amiga Inc's licensing requirements. Bill Mc has stated this to be $500,000, a company must be grossing this much to request a license.
2) What people think Amiga Inc as a company themelves are worth at this point in time.
The one theme of licensing costs pre-empts the one question: What's the value of Amiga technology?
Jarrod.
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Tomas wrote:
The brand name if put up for auction would get somewhere in the low 5 figures. Maybe $10,000 - $20,000.
I honestly think the brand name would sell for more than that.
The Amiga brand might not be as strong as the commodore brand, but alot of gamers still have found memories of Amiga games.
That is true. The games industry could leverage an Amiga brand license for retro releases on either modern platforms like PSP or even custom devices like Minimig. A market that is alive and profitable at the current time.
Jarrod.
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stopthegop wrote:
How much money are we talking here? Five hundred thousand, fifty thousand, or five thousand? Didn't follow the line about corrections and correcting the corrected corrections, etc.. Also, dollars or euros?
The stakes have been lowered, its now officially a 500 000 USD question. I apologise for any inconvenience ;)
Jarrod.
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@jarrody2k
Quote:
There must be a clear understanding however that we are looking for people and businesses that currently have revenues that can support this business. We request a business plan, budget and current revenue figures that are at least $ 500,000.00 per year in revenue.
****
It is obvious to me that no small outfit just starting out is going to have revenues anywhere near this figure. I have no idea if Troika, ACK, etc. could even qualify on their own.
BUT, what if Bill is talking about something else here? ...
An outfit like BestBuy or Wal~Mart or Sears (Canada) or Bay (Hudson's Bay Company, Canada) would easily make this kind of revenue. So what if part of the revenue is from pots and pans, clothing, furniture, or large appliances (washing machines, clothes dryers, stoves, refrigerators). Those companies could sell Amiga products along with the rest of the consumer electronics. Maybe Troika, ACK, etc. could hook up with one of these large sales outlets. Then all they need is a business plan and budget for the Amiga product line.
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redfox
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redfox wrote:
An outfit like BestBuy or Wal~Mart or Sears (Canada) or Bay (Hudson's Bay Company, Canada) would easily make this kind of revenue. So what if part of the revenue is from pots and pans, clothing, furniture, or large appliances (washing machines, clothes dryers, stoves, refrigerators). Those companies could sell Amiga products along with the rest of the consumer electronics. Maybe Troika, ACK, etc. could hook up with one of these large sales outlets. Then all they need is a business plan and budget for the Amiga product line.
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redfox
Wouldn't it be a more obvious to source funding from a venture capatilist? Walmart would hardly look at selling something unless it exists already. Of course they are at the end of the production line.
Jarrod.
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It is obvious to me that no small outfit just starting out is going to have revenues anywhere near this figure.
Not necessarily. Many people in this community are business people. It's not hard to envisage a small business turning over $500,000. Who's to say ACK or the Italians do not have such a backer. Perhaps Troika do not, yet, but again, Troika people live near London. The average house costs $500,000 there.
I can understand the quest for security of supply and support that Bill would want for us but it is slightly ironic given the previous coupon and eyetech situation.
Also Bill may note that a company offered to supply hardware for the OS4 partnership some time ago who definitely gross over $500,000 and are renowned for customer support - they are called Genesi. :-P
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Tomas wrote:
The Amiga brand might not be as strong as the commodore brand, but alot of gamers still have found memories of Amiga games.
The problem is the brand has not only withered on the vine, but has quite a lot of negative sentiment to it. The Amiga as a brand has become a laughing stock. I also think simply far too much time has passed. The only product I see a possibility of comercial success would be a DTV type product if done right. Even then I doubt it would sell anywhere near it's C64 DTV counterpart.
Who would buy the Amiga name now if auctioned? Someone from this community no doubt. They don't have the kind of deep pockets big companies have. I'll admit it could go for over $20,000, you never know. But I seriously doubt it would sell for anything even approaching $100,000. I hate to be so negative, but I think that's the state of the market and the brand name.
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@redfox
Large retailers wouldn't give you or me the time of day, they only deal very high end with multinational corporations.
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@red:
I agree. And you wont be seeing any Amiga computer at any big store like Best Buy/Wal Mart etc.
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Good points, guys.
The last time I saw an Amiga computer being sold in a large retail store was in 1989.
@Colin_Camper
Please don't think I am slamming Troika, ACK or the Italians. I would be very happy indeed if all of them were successful in this market. You're probably right about the $500,000 per year. Having never been in business myself, I don't normally think in those dollar figures.
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redfox
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Unfortunately the Amiga etc name is worth nothing apart from as a purchase for retro-emulation on e.g. IBM etc PC clone.
I love/love Amigas etc BUT (apart from when post-Commodore the brand name appeared in 1993-4 on Chelsea FC shirts before unfair stuffing in 1994 FA Cup Final) only the Commodore name - as evinced frequently by appearance on e.g. oriental computer-thangs - has any value.
Below this 'state of the art' (before MS Vista...) PC on which I 'write' this I have several real Amigas in boxes AND my first ever PC purchase boxed up - the original PC Pentium P60 in COMMODORE 1995-1996 livery from Escom ...
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I do belive there are not that many companys having $500,000 USD wiling to support a little unsirtin company like A.inc After all remember A.inc is a dangerous investment for any invester as it has never shown it self to be a great investment. I can never belive they have made them self rich by selling those crappy mobile things (amiga anywere was it ?) .. Anyways if they are good enugh in their marketing they may and mark may be able to get somewere due too the huge Brandname they own but ha done so little to actually support. Other than this i belive A.inc has super poor management but please know these are my personal opinions hehe..
my two cents : Adonay
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The total market for AmigaOS right now is the retrocomputing market. There are much more modern operating systems out there, including Linux which can be downloaded for free, which are much better choices for desktop and embedded applications.
the amiga market is what you make it to be. its only retro if nothing new gets added or noone steps up to lead it on. you cant do any serious buisness from a retromarket though, so its either growing or dying.
this entire thread seriously lacks any form of visions. its a good thing that most companies look for oppotunities opposed to you guys.
as for window, linux and macos to more modern is only correct to the extend that amigaos doesnt get any further development. with any even minor backing the amigaos holds a lot of strengths that can easily put it on par in all areas an surpass them in others.
as for them being better dekstop and embedded systems is entirely incorrect. neither of them really fits on embedded systems at all. windows even has to do a completly specialized version for it.
The only product I see a possibility of comercial success would be a DTV type
that wouldnt be much of an amiga product. there is plenty of room for the operating system on a wide host of different hardware. good thing you arnt the one trying to move amiga forward, eh?
I hate to be so negative, but I think that's the state of the market and the brand name.
then dont be so negative. you dont seem to have any arguments for your negativity except your view from your bedroom window.
The Amiga as a brand has become a laughing stock.
where exactly? the only place its a laughing stock is among those few with a different agenda. the amiga brand seems very strong among common people as well as most enthusiasts.
amiga to those companies and people i meet, is simplicity, elegance, fun and power. only few people know about the problems resolving around the amiga, and the laughing stock seems to be the idiot fans and nay sayers, with their pathetic limited views and their rediculous conspiracies. not the amiga itself. these forum posts are the only laughable thing really.
But I seriously doubt it would sell for anything even approaching $100,000
based on what facts? i think you could easily add a zero to that. the commodore brand sold for $32 million in 2004, so amiga would easily sell for 1 million.
The games industry could leverage an Amiga brand license for retro releases on either modern platforms like PSP
and where would that bring us? exactly nowhere. at best it would be an income, but it wouldnt in any way drive amigaos forward or secure any kind of viable future use.
An outfit like BestBuy or Wal~Mart or Sears (Canada) or Bay (Hudson's Bay Company, Canada) would easily make this kind of revenue
they would easily turn over 500.000 on a daily basis. possible even hourly. for some reason people seems to think 500.000 is a lot, when its really next to nothing. the 150 man company i work in, turn over 50.000 a day and we arnt exactly big by any means. yes, it excludes your average bedroom or two man company, but those companies cant do anything useful anyway. producing around 1000 amiga compatible motherboards really is irrelevant in creating a userbase or any kind of future to build upon.
personly i would like to see troika and other small companies produce hardware, but under no circumstances will such little scale make or breake anything.
Unfortunately the Amiga etc name is worth nothing apart from as a purchase for retro-emulation on e.g. IBM etc PC clone.
what exactly are you guys basing sentences like this on?
the amiga brand might not be worth anything to a company like ibm, but the operating system sure is. while ibm daily buys up bunches of smaller companies with less relevancy than amiga, other companies could easily turn in millions based on the amiga name. and ibm is just an example. there are bunches of similar companies that would have an interest.
its a matter of keeping things in persepctive. there are a lot of companies similar to ibm that easily could put a couple hundred programmers behind amigaos a couple months to make amigaos fill out a desktop and embedded segment that noone else covers as efficiently.
there isnt any reason to be afraid of multimillion dollar deals or be afraid that amigaos doesnt offer anything. there are plenty of oppotunities and putting down a few million a day is peanuts for any serious buisness.
you are only limited by your own inefficiency, lack of selfconfidence and lack of understanding of how the world turns around and how companies operate.
/stone
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I don't think Commodore brand was sold for 32million$. Escom bought Commodore and Amiga for 25mill$ with many things left to sell (A1200s, A4000s, semi-produced machines, etc...)...
Amiga today could be worth 1 million $, with all IP/Patents/Brand, and ongoing 'development'.
BUT
Only if buyer gets:
- All rights to produce and sell Amiga OS, Hardware,...
- No restrictions on porting Amiga OS to other platforms (x86)
- Detailed HW/SW project documentation
This 500.000$ licence fee is very interesting, what company would pay 1 million $ (licence and HW R&D) to run OS4 that don't exist ? How much units they have to sell (and at what price) to come to any profit ?
P.S If Amiga brand is so valuable - how comes that Amiga Inc. isn't sold already ? Freescale is sold for 17.6 billion $, what would be the problem to throw 10-20-50 million for Amiga name? Common sense I guess - Commodore brand ISN'T making any money to it's owners (at least not millions). Brand is something people remeber - product and quality is what they stick to. Look at DFI, XFX, Club3D - newborn companies that sell thousands units of PC HW and really don't have some 'catchy' brand - but have high quality.
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@Stoned:
I totally agree with your point about the corrosive effect defeatism is having on the community and the future (yes, future) of Amiga OS. There is a way out of this hole; whats lacking is the collective will to make it happen. I see the word "can't" in the forum way too often. Usually when someone write's "can't", what they're really saying is "won't".
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I don't think Commodore brand was sold for 32million$. Escom bought Commodore and Amiga for 25mill$ with many things left to sell (A1200s, A4000s, semi-produced machines, etc...)...
regardless, it was sold for that amount of money.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/12/29/tulip_sells_commodore/
i realise some of the numbers and millions sounds like a lot, but really, its next to nothing compared to large scale buisness.
This 500.000$ licence fee is very interesting, what company would pay 1 million $ (licence and HW R&D) to run OS4 that don't exist ? How much units they have to sell (and at what price) to come to any profit ?
its not a fee. its not an expense to the company, its merely a treshold that amiga takes into consideration as to how capable the company is.
/stone
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Well I must admit that was brave one :-( 32million$ just for brand name. But Tulip did release products under Commodore name (OEM MP3 players, but hey), and what Amiga Inc. can say they produced in last 6 years worth more than 1 million ?
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stone wrote:
The games industry could leverage an Amiga brand license for retro releases on either modern platforms like PSP
and where would that bring us?
To revenue
Jarrod.
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stopthegop wrote:
@Stoned:
I totally agree with your point about the corrosive effect defeatism is having on the community and the future (yes, future) of Amiga OS. There is a way out of this hole; whats lacking is the collective will to make it happen. I see the word "can't" in the forum way too often. Usually when someone write's "can't", what they're really saying is "won't".
This really strikes a chord with me. I really do believe Amiga could have done with Bill McEwen's business savvy and stubborn marketing at the very beginning of the last decade.
You can do a lot with very little... often you need to discover that big things come in small packages. Or at least you must have the persuasive power to convince the big boys you've got something big.
Romanticism aside: Really, what do you think McEwen is marketing that is big enough to attract the attention of established market players?
Jarrod.
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The brand name if put up for auction would get somewhere in the low 5 figures. Maybe $10,000 - $20,000.
Im so waiting for the day that Amiga Inc comes up on Ebayn specially at $20,000 :-)
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@stone:
amiga to those companies and people i meet, is simplicity, elegance, fun and power. only few people know about the problems resolving around the amiga, and the laughing stock seems to be the idiot fans and nay sayers, with their pathetic limited views and their rediculous conspiracies. not the amiga itself. these forum posts are the only laughable thing really.
you and your friends need to step out of the 90's. Only a few people know about the Amiga and its problems is because the rest of the fans left years ago. The whole situation is disappointing but if you've followed the Amiga from day one through all its owners and broken promises then you'd realize what a laughing stock it is.
its a matter of keeping things in persepctive. there are a lot of companies similar to ibm that easily could put a couple hundred programmers behind amigaos a couple months to make amigaos fill out a desktop and embedded segment that noone else covers as efficiently.
Again, what company would want to do anything like that? Tulip bought commodore and what did they do with it? Since they bought it for $25mil obviously they had the resources to back any motherboard design etc but they didnt. You ended up seeing a C=64 in a joystick and even they offloaded the C= brand. The Amiga OS isnt anything thats so wanted like you're assuming. In the past it was good in its prime. Yeahronimo bought C= but cant afford to pay for it in one chunk so they are paying in payments..lol. But thats what Tulip settled for..no other takers? Maybe IO Interactive can plunk down the money since they have so much and port Amiga OS to the PS3? I mean you have coders there dont you? Should be a piece of cake.
Sorry to sound so negative but I see nothing of any value from any AI employee until there is proof, a live demo at a big show etc. Too many broken promises and delusions of grandeur.
-Alex
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I completely agree with you stone and i'm glad you said all that. I mean $20,000 for the Amiga name? come on! I swear some of the people around here must secretly work for microsoft or something..
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The last time I saw an Amiga computer being sold in a large retail store was in 1989.
That is odd. :O It was definitely not like that here in Europe. The sales didnt really slow down until 94-95 or so which was because the owner was bankrupt and that game devs started withdrawing from the market.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NewTek
I wonder did Newtek have $500,000 revenue upon it's release of the Video Toaster? Just imagine if it didn't the success of the Amiga probably would have been much less, as the Video Toaster introduced new affordable technology and really got a lot of good 'free' press for the Amiga.
It's like WOW I feel guilty for saying Commodore killed the Amiga with bad marketing, at least they allowed 3rd parties to make cool things???!!!
Seriously I don't get the logic of the $500,000 revenus requirement. Shouldn't the test be simply "Tell me what your hardware product can do???".
Just think a genius in his/her garage could invent a real-life food synthesiser - that would re-arrange matter to create any food like they do in Star Trek. But, if they didn't have $500,000 in revenue Bill would say "sorry Amiga can't give you a license!"
*sigh* Why can't people learn from history? THIRD PARTY add-ons were what made the Amiga keep going all these years.
Really, we all know the Amiga was a great computer but can you imagine how much less success it would have had if Commodore was so strict to 3rd parties - Bill is starting to make me wish for the days of Commordore! What me worry?
---------------------------
Had a Brand new Amiga 500 when it was released
Later upgraded to an Amiga 1200
then got an Amiga CD32 & turned it into Amiga CD32/1200
Finally surrendered and got PC in 2001 :(
Currently:
Alienware Aurora m9700 2GB ram, 200GB raid0, fingerprint scanner, usb GPS, & of course Amiga Forever.
Ahhh to dream of an Alienware Amiga...mmmmm mmmm good :)
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you and your friends need to step out of the 90's. Only a few people know about the Amiga and its problems is because the rest of the fans left years ago.
what does being stuck in the 90s have to do with anything except some kind of childish insult?
i dont know what your definition of 'a few' is, but millions of people isnt a few in my book. these are people to whom the word amiga rings a bell in one form or another, and for by far the largest part of these a very positive bell too, though most of them never even owned an amiga.
the fans isnt what cuts it anyway. you cant expect a company to base any kind of product on the tiny amiga fan base. amiga would in many ways be better off without these 'fans' that does nothing but bring everyone down. the only positive thing is that the generel public doesnt take notice to those people.
The whole situation is disappointing but if you've followed the Amiga from day one through all its owners and broken promises then you'd realize what a laughing stock it is.
i have followed the amiga since the middle 80s. personally i see great strengths in the operatingsystem, but besides from that, i try to look at things from a buissness point of view and not that of a disgruntled user who feel let down by broken promisses.
what matters is the possiblities and the investments that needs to be done. what exactly is there to laugh about? the only thing thats worrying is leagal complications.
Again, what company would want to do anything like that?
its not a matter of what company wants to do it, but solely a matter of getting someone in on the idea since every company would want to 'do that' if they can see a profit.
there are several hundreds of possible customers in different companies. you sound like someone not sending the job application because you dont feel good enough. you'd be surprised if you actually got in touch with any of those companies.
The Amiga OS isnt anything thats so wanted like you're assuming. In the past it was good in its prime.
what exactly has changed? operatingsystems isnt rocket science and there hasnt been any revolutions in this area since the 80s. amigaos still holds nearly all of its strengths as it did then. nowadays since windows, linux and macos all have grown into unhandly mastodonts it holds even more value as a lightweight scaleable system.
Maybe IO Interactive can plunk down the money since they have so much and port Amiga OS to the PS3? I mean you have coders there dont you? Should be a piece of cake.
as i wrote. its not a lot of money for any decent company. why do you insist on making it a huge deal when its a minor investment for someone with a vision? sure we have programmers and im sure we could do an operatingsystem too, but its hardly our scope of work.
Sorry to sound so negative but I see nothing of any value from any AI employee until there is proof, a live demo at a big show etc. Too many broken promises and delusions of grandeur.
thank god its the disgruntled user who feels let down that is speaking. luckily buisneses see things in a different light.
/stone
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stone wrote:
nowadays since windows, linux and macos all have grown into unhandly mastodonts it holds even more value as a lightweight scaleable system.
So true! Preach on, 'brutha stone!
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Ok shine some different light on us ? What Amiga Inc. can offer to someone that is worth millions ? Name ? Many people connect Amiga to video games, if remember the name at all. User base ? There is probably 100 000 users that would buy some new HW/SW if produced, so it's a lousy market share. Operating system that can compete with current: Windows, Linux,... ? :-( !
Tulip got a hell of a bargain for Commodore name, and if you read more about Tulips - you can find they are very often seen at courts - so I wouldn't be surprised if there is some money fraud behind all this.
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stopthegop wrote:
stone wrote:
nowadays since windows, linux and macos all have grown into unhandly mastodonts it holds even more value as a lightweight scaleable system.
So true! Preach on, 'brutha stone!
Lightweight scaleable system can get you 50 000, 60 000 hardcore users (BeOS, MorphOS, etc, etc). While XP and OSX have a bit more, walking into that battlefield takes much more than Amiga name and 20yr old OS...
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Quote:
The only product I see a possibility of commercial success
would be a DTV type
that wouldnt be much of an amiga product. there is plenty of
room for the operating system on a wide host of different
hardware. good thing you arnt the one trying to move amiga
forward, eh?
Could I possibly be any worse than the FIVE companies
that have owned the Amiga brand over the last TWELVE
years? Anyone who thinks the market is healthy and Amiga Inc
is slaving away to make products the community wants has
obviously not been paying attention.
Quote:
I hate to be so negative, but I think that's the state of
the market and the brand name.
then dont be so negative. you dont seem to have any
arguments for your negativity except your view from your
bedroom window.
Hmm let's see, I helped run what was likely the top grossing
Amiga shop in 2003-2004. I'd bet a mint we grossed more than
Amiga Inc themselves during this time. We bought out the
remaining stock of a product that had been dead for years
(Prometheus) and sold every last piece. We were even
influential in getting new drivers to the Prometheus.
I'm no major player and never have been, but I have been in
the game. In this market there is NO major players and there
is NO serious market.
Since you issued the challenge, what have YOU done that
trumps MY right to have an opinion besides looking out your
basement window?
Quote:
The Amiga as a brand has become a laughing stock.
where exactly? the only place its a laughing stock is among
those few with a different agenda. the amiga brand seems
very strong among common people as well as most enthusiasts.
amiga to those companies and people i meet, is simplicity,
elegance, fun and power. only few people know about the
problems resolving around the amiga, and the laughing stock
seems to be the idiot fans and nay sayers, with their
pathetic limited views and their rediculous conspiracies.
not the amiga itself. these forum posts are the only
laughable thing really.
It's called reality, take a deep breath. How big do you
really think this community is? How many of those people do
you really think would pony up to actually buy a product if
produced? The total "community" worldwide is in the (very)
low thousands. The active users who actually use and own
Amiga computers would be in the hundreds.
Prove to me otherwise? 2006 is almost over and what is left
of this very, very small community is bleeding away a few
users a day. What product will come out in 2007 to
reinvigorate the market? 2008? 2009? 2010? Hard facts
please, not over exuberant optimism, not religious speak.
Every year that has passed since C='s death has been worse
then the one before it. The market has been practically dead
for nearly a decade, for the last 5 years it has been
totally dead.
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snowman040 wrote:
...Lightweight scaleable system can get you 50 000, 60 000 hardcore users (BeOS, MorphOS, etc, etc)....
You have a point. In fact, I can think of two more to add to that list: MacOS and Linux. You don't consider these operating systems failures, do you? Both, at one time, were ridiculed as instruments of the lunatic fringe. Apple in the early 1990s was a basket-case on life support until Uncle Gates came to the rescue with a timely infusion of cash. Linux was an exclusive club for many years. Its only had real growth in the last 3-5 years. So if Linux and Crapos can rise from the dead, so can Amiga.
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Quote:
you and your friends need to step out of the 90's. Only a
few people know about the Amiga and its problems is because
the rest of the fans left years ago.
what does being stuck in the 90s have to do with anything
except some kind of childish insult?
i dont know what your definition of 'a few' is, but millions
of people isnt a few in my book. these are people to whom the
word amiga rings a bell in one form or another, and for by far
the largest part of these a very positive bell too, though
most of them never even owned an amiga.
No, TheMagicM is correct. Your head is in the 90's and that's no insult the only one here throwing insults is yourself. There are no "millions" of people, they've all moved on. They owned a product and when that product didn't fill their needs they moved on. None of these people will buy a substandard product for 10-100X price of a mainstream product. Only a handful of hobyists will and that handful keeps getting smaller with time.
Actually I disagree, your head is in the 80's, not the 90's. In the 80's a single person or 2 could cobble together something killer and make a mint. Nowadays it takes huge corporations with tons of researcgh, funding and quality control. It also takes buttloads of major partnerships, political connections and such. No one with even the slightest interest in the Amiga comes near to these requirements.
You can have your head in the clouds all you want, it won't change anything. People like you come and go. Come in raving how negative everyone is and how great everything will be shortly, and in a few months to a year when it doesn't pan out they quitely disapear without a word.
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So if Linux and Crapos can rise from the dead, so can Amiga.
And who will do this and on what hardware? How will it get marketed?
-
Maybe because you've been so involved in the amiga that you have such strong views against it? Do you not think that other people beyond old fans of the amiga will be interested in OS 4 and beyond. Look at Linux for instance and how many people are switching to that over Windows, and i can't even stand Linux!
As long as we have people with dreams and developers to develop on the new amiga, thats what will bring it forward. I know for one i'll be selling my pc to buy one in the future.
-
Drifting from topic aren't we ?
The point IS that TODAY Amiga Inc., Amiga OS, and all IP/HW/.... isn't worth much. Possibly in next 5 years someone will invest money in R&D, patent some cool things, rewrite Amiga OS and then we will have cool platform/system - but TODAY we don't have that. And you can't sell the possibility for market success....
@neon32: development without sales is a useless thing to do. Even 'free' linux was developed by commercial companies, they brought it to desktop market in last 4-5 years.
p.s. I can bore you all to death with Win/OSX/Linux historical data, but open another topic if interested.
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And who will do this and on what hardware? How will it get marketed?
The marketing is easy. Hire the experts. Bill Gates, more than anyone else in history, has demonstrated the power of good advertising. Marketing is best left to the professionals. Regardless of what it costs, a good marketing strategy is worth it. Sign up for the old platinum account at Ogilvy & Mather (or other top firm) shovel a truckload of cash into a "flood the airwaves" style marketing campaign, and you're set. You could be peddling total garbage (Like Gates) and it would still reap 7 figure sales. The public (especially American) have proved this time and again.
You ask on what hardware a new Amiga might run? I myself favor completely redesigned hardware made to look and "feel" like a classic Amiga -- not some stock, "me too" vanilla PPC board with an "Amiga" bios. A radical new design, something totally outside the box -- so much so that the it would be impossible for the inbread technology press to ignore it. I would seek a totally scaleable, modular design. Something you would instantly recognize as an Amiga (elegant, responsive, intuitive...ability to multitask instead of just make the claim, etc..), yet futuristic. Not "modern", but years ahead of its time, just like the classic Amiga was for the better half of the last two decades.
This is just how things would proceed if I was in charge. :) I'm by no means "rich", but I do save, and have got a pretty tidy amount built up.. Plus a couple of well compensated friends... If indeed you see Amiga, Inc. go up for sale for, say, 5 or 10 grand? Maybe we'll see some movement. :)
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And who will do this and on what hardware? How will it get marketed?
Truely amazing that those who have not gotten their hands dirty in sales of any thing Amiga related live in such fantasy world were Amiga is economically viable. The only thing Amiga Inc has is copyrights and some licenses to patents that are going to expire shortly. That's worth alot, not. What's left, the logo? Oh hold me back. WB 3.1? Even when it was mentioned if Bill Buck got ownership of WB, he would donate it to AROS, the AROS crews said they didn't want it. That's pretty damning right there. DEad? It's way out of date and all that work on current apps will have to be reworked since the new Intent is so radically different then the orginal Intent Fleecy was getting excited about. Of course, we can't forget the shell game, who knows how well Billed&Fleeced hid their corporate liabilities from those who have judgements agains Amiga Inc WA. Even more liabilities a new owner would have to consider and that effects the final sale price.
For those who think different, please, please, morgage your house a second time and max out those credit cards and open Amiga shops. There are Billions to be made, right?
/me tosses another wooden stake to redrumloa.
Dammy
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For those who think different, please, please, morgage your house a second time and max out those credit cards and open Amiga shops. There are Billions to be made, right?
There's a name for people like that. They're called entrepeneurs. btw, your post could have just as easily been written about Apple in 1993.
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Could I possibly be any worse than the FIVE companies that have owned the Amiga brand over the last TWELVE years? Anyone who thinks the market is healthy
its no a matter of being worse, than being good enough. nobody claimed the amigamarket is healthy, actually its been completly nonexistant for many years already.
I'm no major player and never have been, but I have been in the game. In this market there is NO major players and there is NO serious market.
Since you issued the challenge, what have YOU done that trumps MY right to have an opinion besides looking out your basement window?
and what challenge are you talking about? why is this always about hostility, dont you get the point at all? its not about your personal feelings, letdowns and disapointements. its about oppotunities from where we stand today, and they arnt significantly worse just because of a few amigausers feels trampled on and have to voice it.
i dont belittle your personal opinion or right therefor. but opposed to you i dont take the view of someone who got cheated. i dont feel the need to slam other users on their head because i myself feel miserable, but rather i try to show you the perspective that a potential investor could have.
It's called reality, take a deep breath. How big do you really think this community is? How many of those people do you really think would pony up to actually buy a product if produced? The total "community" worldwide is in the (very) low thousands.
i clearly stated the amiga community isnt worth a dime to anyone. its not existant and highly irrelevant to anyone interested in amiga as a brand or amigaos as an operatingsystem. now, thats reality for you and the standpoint i took from my first post.
what is important though, is the massive amounts people who nods their head when they hear the name.
Prove to me otherwise? 2006 is almost over and what is left of this very, very small community is bleeding away a few users a day. What product will come out in 2007 to reinvigorate the market? 2008? 2009? 2010? Hard facts please, not over exuberant optimism, not religious speak.
you make up something i never stated, then wants me to prove it for you? it doesnt matter what products comes out, but what the options are and what value potential interested parties can see. then take it from there and do anything, or nothing, as you please.
personally im not optimistic about the future. i dont hold much hope for the operatingsystem of my dreams, but im no more blind than i know how buisness works and that there is a lot of possibilities.
Your head is in the 90's and that's no insult the only one here throwing insults is yourself. There are no "millions" of people, they've all moved on. They owned a product and when that product didn't fill their needs they moved on. None of these people will buy a substandard product for 10-100X price of a mainstream product
please point me to my insulting paragraphs since that would help me improve my forum posts in the future.
exactly, there are millions of people who have moved on. those are preciesly the potiential ones as well as newcommers. the rest is irrelevant.
you are the one expecting a substandard product. im talking a scope thats in a realistic league for any decent sized company that wants to make a profit. not a couple tousand hobbyiests who wont make a difference anyway.
Actually I disagree, your head is in the 80's, not the 90's. In the 80's a single person or 2 could cobble together something killer and make a mint
and why exactly is that? i seem to be the one who takes a step back and looks at the real possibilities from where we stand. where did i talk a two man operation?
Nowadays it takes huge corporations with tons of researcgh, funding and quality control. It also takes buttloads of major partnerships, political connections and such. No one with even the slightest interest in the Amiga comes near to these requirements.
and there are plenty of those giant cooperations who could be potential partners or licensees of something amiga related.
you are badly mistaken when you figure noone has an interest, but im sure its way easier to sit and moan and complain that the world is unfair than actually go look at the world and poke it for a response.
You can have your head in the clouds all you want, it won't change anything. People like you come and go. Come in raving how negative everyone is and how great everything will be shortly, and in a few months to a year when it doesn't pan out they quitely disapear without a word.
do i really have my head in the clouds? its not really that complicated. put up a list of amigaos's strengths compared to windows/linux/whatever and then list the companies that could have an interest, no matter how odd or unexpected, and you will get a substantial list.
im pretty confident that you havnt been on the amiga ride any longer than i have, so why you figure that people like me 'come and go' really is bogus. the only difference between us in that regard is our standpoint and view upon the situration. you seem far to concerned with something as irrelevant as the fact that someone played fool on you personally with 10 years of let downs.
/stone
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There's a name for people like that. They're called entrepeneurs.
As someone who got out of the retail end of selling Amiga related products, it was very clear, that market is not economically viable. So show me up, go spend lots of money on setting up a store and let me know how wealthy you become. Feel free to rub in my face that you were right.
btw, your post could have just as easily been written about Apple in 1993.
Pity it took them 10 plus years to realize what many have been saying all long, PPC was not a viable choice for desktop CPU. Thankfully for Apple, they realized this before it was too late.
Dammy
Head Troll
Black Troll Technology Corporation
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@neon32
I don't have strong views against the Amiga. I would love to see the Amiga make a comeback. I just don't see where any of the players involved have either the vision or the means to make it happen.
Linux is a success because it runs on commodity hardware, it's very mature and it's free. The Amiga doesn't have any of this going for it.
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see Amiga Inc make the hard choices to take a final stand, but even then it is probably too late. I want a new Amiga, but there is none on the horizon. What is there upcoming in the forseeable future?
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i dont belittle your personal opinion or right therefor. but opposed to you i dont take the view of someone who got cheated. i dont feel the need to slam other users on their head because i myself feel miserable, but rather i try to show you the perspective that a potential investor could have.
Who says I feel cheated? I enjoyed my little experiment in the market and I made a profit, a small profit but a profit. Who's miserable? I'm just a realist who found the time / effort of a contracting market getting progressively worse to not be worth the effort.
Heck, I am still considering re-entering as a seller, but purely as a hobby. I hope one day the Amiga marlet can become like the C= 8bit market, which sadly is much healthier.
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@Tomas
The last time I saw an Amiga computer being sold in a large retail store was in 1989.
That particular retail chain, Future Shop, has stores all across Canada and specializes in home entertainment. They sell a full range of consumer electronics, as well as comuters, software and media. They are very successful. In 1989 they were selling the Amiga 500 bundled with a bunch of software.
I purchased my Amiga 2000HD from a much smaller retail chain that specialized in Amiga. Saddly, that chain folded a few years later. Eventually, I found a much smaller store operated by some Amiga enthusiasts who held in there until the late 1990s.
I purchased my Micro-A1 near the end of 2004 from the online retail portal for LiveWire Systems, the Canadian dealer for AmigaOne products.
---
redfox
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@stone:
i dont know what your definition of 'a few' is, but millions of people isnt a few in my book. these are people to whom the word amiga rings a bell in one form or another, and for by far the largest part of these a very positive bell too, though most of them never even owned an amiga.
I'm sure they would have fond memories from the 80's and 90's. I have fond memories of my C=64 and VIC-20.
the fans isnt what cuts it anyway. you cant expect a company to base any kind of product on the tiny amiga fan base.
ok, but you were just talking about the millions... and MILLIONS of Amiga fans..ok they dont count. nevermind.
operatingsystems isnt rocket science
Really? Tell that to the Friedens (sp?) or the MOS devel group. Those are some of the smartest people working on AOS4 and MOS respectively. But you're right, I bet you can make some sort of PlaystationOS (POS) (no pun intended..lol) that resembles AOS 4 or MOS "in about two weeks" right?
and there hasnt been any revolutions in this area since the 80s. amigaos still holds nearly all of its strengths as it did then. nowadays since windows, linux and macos all have grown into unhandly mastodonts it holds even more value as a lightweight scaleable system.
MacOS/Linux EASILY trumps any incarnation of any Amiga OS out there currently. Linux is as bloated as the user makes it...and it runs great on my powerhouse X86-64 machine. Tell me something AmigaOS does now that Linux cannot. (something worthwhile, not silly like dragging the wb screen down to reveal a seperate screen). I can name plenty the other way around.
as i wrote. its not a lot of money for any decent company.
By that assessment there should be companies coming out of the woodworks, but they're not. I wonder why.
-Alex
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MacOS/Linux EASILY trumps any incarnation of any Amiga OS out there currently. Linux is as bloated as the user makes it...and it runs great on my powerhouse X86-64 machine. Tell me something AmigaOS does now that Linux cannot. (something worthwhile, not silly like dragging the wb screen down to reveal a seperate screen). I can name plenty the other way around.
I can name one:
*The ability to boot from ROM right out of the box.
I can name several things that Amiga is that Linux/Macos are not:
*elegant, intuitive and graceful.
*easy to understand and use for non-technical users.
*Fun. Linux is a chore.
-
Not directly related to the OS, but an extremely and increasingly important factor in my opinion - Complete and totally silent operation. (apart from hard disk noise if you have a hard disk installed)
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I can name one:
*The ability to boot from ROM right out of the box.
You dont boot from a rom. You still have to load workbench.
I can name several things that Amiga is that Linux/Macos are not:
*elegant, intuitive and graceful.
*easy to understand and use for non-technical users.
*Fun. Linux is a chore.
Linux and MacOS are as elegant, intuitive and graceful as you make it. If you're not creative then it will be as ugly as you make it.
True about the ease of use. But then what do you expect out of a operating system as old as AOS with its limited features?
I have a blast using Linux. Its not a chore but thats because I know what I'm doing. My dad, who is not linux savvy, switched from Windows to SuSE 10 linux and uses it every day without any problems.
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You dont boot from a rom. You still have to load workbench.
no, not normally. but you can if you want to or need to, whereas in Linux you can't. That was your question, "What can AOS do that Linux can't". The ability to access files on a disk if the the os decides to quit working because an index file somewhere got corrupted or because of a virus is one of the Amiga's many virtues.
Its not a chore but thats because I know what I'm doing.
Thank you for proving my point. If you have to "know what you're doing" to make it useful, then its not useful. In fact its a direct contradiction to the first statement in the same paragraph;
"Linux and MacOS are as elegant, intuitive and graceful..."
Not if you have to "know what you're doing" to "make it", it isn't. A DIY kit is the antithesis of elegant. How big is the user documentation for Linux? Probably up to about a terrabyte by now.. If not, it will be soon. Either way, its frigg'n huge. You call that fun? In no perversion of the term can it be called "intuitive".
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Clarification: First line above I meant to say "No normally you do NOT boot from ROM", but you can if you need to..
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ok, but you were just talking about the millions... and MILLIONS of Amiga fans..ok they dont count. nevermind.
i really dont have time to start a discussion on stuff you make up. i have consistantly talked about people to whom the amiga name rings a bell. i have consintantly pointed out that there isnt any viable amiga fan based market.
Really? Tell that to the Friedens (sp?) or the MOS devel group. Those are some of the smartest people working on AOS4 and MOS respectively. But you're right, I bet you can make some sort of PlaystationOS (POS) (no pun intended..lol) that resembles AOS 4 or MOS "in about two weeks" right?
hyperion and the friedens brothers are without doubt already aware of this fact, and there are a lot of exellent books on the teoretics of operatingsystems.
you are assuming its rocketsscience based on your own lack of insight into the topic. its complex for for sure, and definitly time consuming. throw some more mud in random directions and you might hit a valid point sooner or later.
MacOS/Linux EASILY trumps any incarnation of any Amiga OS out there currently.
not really. they are more complete and contains a lot of applications and subsystems that amigaos lacks. except for a few more or less mportant features such as memory protection, the vital parts are very much on par, with amigaos lacking in a few areas while being ahead in others.
the features you claim easily trumps amigaos isnt operatingsystem features but part of the application layer which is irrelevant in this context, and can 'easily' be added whenever someone gets the time.
/stone
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This is fun! :-) 'you said, I said...'
@stone: you tried to explain us that Amiga Inc. has more value then 20000-50000-100000$ for brand, and from "millions Amiga users" you moved to "millions that Amiga name rings a bell" ? What bell ? "buy all new Amiga products" ? I doubt.
@all: Please stop that 'Amiga OS rulez' nonsense, yes it RULED some 20 years ago, but try connecting to internet out-of-the-box or try reading modern web documents. Amiga OS today needs a lot of work to be done, and that is almost as rewriting the OS from scratch.
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There are some established methods of determining value:
1. Let the tax assessors do it,and appeal if not happy.
2. Offer the item/company at auction.
3. Hire professional appraisers familiar with the market.Complain if their judgment differs from yours.
4. Have a bunch of people with no access to relevant information engage in wild speculative arguments.Ignore them.
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you tried to explain us that Amiga Inc. has more value then 20000-50000-100000$ for brand, and from "millions Amiga users" you moved to "millions that Amiga name rings a bell" ?
eh, no i didnt. can you even read? if so, please point out where i write that. there is no point in having a discussion if all the arguments you have are based on asumptions and stuff i never wrote.
i would appriciate if you would actually produce from real arguments at some point. preferable some thats actually reletated to the the context and posts i have done.
What bell ? "buy all new Amiga products" ? I doubt.
a brand is valuable when the name means something to a lot of people. its not about buying or not, its about millions of people who will get some kind of assosiation when they hear the name.
And please stop that 'Amiga OS rulez' nonsense, yes it RULED some 20 years ago, but try connecting to internet out-of-the-box or try reading modern web documents. Amiga OS today needs a lot of work to be done, and that is almost as rewriting the OS from scratch.
and where do i write that amigaos rules? please grow up a little and try to lead a sober discussion. putting words in my mouth really is a waste of everyones time.
besides, a modern webbrowser is not a part of the core operatingsystem, and is only an important part if you are trying to sell it to a desktop user. there are hundreds of other uses for an operatingsystem in other areas.
yes, we need a good modern browser, but you are mixing up the operatingsystem with the application layer which is a completly different thing.
/stone
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i dont know what your definition of 'a few' is, but millions of people isnt a few in my book. these are people to whom the word amiga rings a bell in one form or another, and for by far the largest part of these a very positive bell too, though most of them never even owned an amiga.
Too bad that proved out to be badly overestimated by the sales of A1s and Pegs. Clearly there USE to be millions of Amiga users, we judge that by number of units sold world wide. Now that Eyetech has headed for the hills with pathetic sales and Genesi had to go to *nix groups to make any sales numbers, it's plain to most rational folks, there is no market left. There are thousands (in the four digits) of customers out there, not tens of millions nor one million like so many would like to believe.
Dammy
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@stone: Last comment wasn't directed at your posts (one with @stone: is)... I edited it to clearify.
a brand is valuable when the name means something to a lot of people. its not about buying or not, its about millions of people who will get some kind of assosiation when they hear the name.
I doubt all those people will think something more than "Amiga? that computer from 90s?", but ok... this discussion leads to nowhere anyway...
@recidivist: well in a very odd situation that there IS NO 1,2,3 from your list here at amiga.org, we stick to no 4.
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Please stop that 'Amiga OS rulez' nonsense, yes it RULED some 20 years ago, but try connecting to internet out-of-the-box or try reading modern web documents. Amiga OS today needs a lot of work to be done, and that is almost as rewriting the OS from scratch.
Thats assuming you're goal is to transmutate an Amiga into a Windoze box.
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Too bad that proved out to be badly overestimated by the sales of A1s and Pegs. Clearly there USE to be millions of Amiga users, we judge that by number of units sold world wide. Now that Eyetech has headed for the hills with pathetic sales and Genesi had to go to *nix groups to make any sales numbers, it's plain to most rational folks, there is no market left. There are thousands (in the four digits) of customers out there, not tens of millions nor one million like so many would like to believe.
The A1 is an uninspired piece of junk and it, too, was poorly marketed. It used a canned, off-the-shelf PPC board (probably the same boards Apple was using at the time), totally unoriginal and uninspiring; just nothing there to get excited about. Plus it was a CLEAR transparent attempt to exploit the Amiga name uing stock "ho-hum/yawn" technology. OF COURSE it was going to fail. It was doomed before it hit the starting gate.
-
There are some established methods of determining value:
1. Let the tax assessors do it,and appeal if not happy.
2. Offer the item/company at auction.
3. Hire professional appraisers familiar with the market.Complain if their judgment differs from yours.
4. Have a bunch of people with no access to relevant information engage in wild speculative arguments.Ignore them.
What if a person in category 4 has several years of professional experience pertaining to the professions listed in categories 1-3?
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[..] it's plain to most rational folks, there is no market left. There are thousands (in the four digits) of customers out there, not tens of millions nor one million like so many would like to believe.
the difference here is that we are talking about different markets. i really think its quite clear from my previous posts that i dont see any valuable in the current userbased market, regardless of you repeatedly trying to imply that i do.
so far all newer amiga productions has been targeted at the enthusiast market and the last remaining fans. this market is incredible small and difficult to make any profit in.
we have yet to see a product thats targeted at the mainstream market and those potential new and has-been amiga users.
/stone
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The A1 is an uninspired piece of junk and it, too, was poorly marketed. It used a canned, off-the-shelf PPC board (probably the same boards Apple was using at the time), totally unoriginal and uninspiring; just nothing there to get excited about. Plus it was a CLEAR transparent attempt to exploit the Amiga name uing stock "ho-hum/yawn" technology. OF COURSE it was going to fail. It was doomed before it hit the starting gate.
The whole concept of the unholy trio was doomed from the start with piss poor business plan. Say they took a x86 mobo and rebadged it. Who the hell is going to pay nearly a grand for it? As horrific of a disaster the project it was, if there were really million(s) of Amiga fans out there waiting for the resurrection of the Amiga, they could have gotten atleast 10% of that market just by slapping the boingball on the case. That didn't happen at all. They sold, what, less then two thousand units with Genesi selling about the same before they focused on linux?
No, there are no millions of Amigians awaiting for Amiga5000's release. There are no millions awaiting for the next AmigaDE. Wake up and smell the coffee, economic viablility of the Amiga Market died years ago.
Dammy
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I doubt all those people will think something more than "Amiga? that computer from 90s?", but ok... this discussion leads to nowhere anyway...
I think you'd be suprised snowman, especially over here in Europe.
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The whole concept of the unholy trio was doomed from the start with piss poor business plan. Say they took a x86 mobo and rebadged it. Who the hell is going to pay nearly a grand for it? As horrific of a disaster the project it was, if there were really million(s) of Amiga fans out there waiting for the resurrection of the Amiga, they could have gotten atleast 10% of that market just by slapping the boingball on the case.
You're first three sentences are right on the money. The fourth is incomplete. They failed to get even that "diehard 10%" because of a total lack of ADVERTISING. Period.
No, there are no millions of Amigians awaiting for Amiga5000's release. There are no millions awaiting for the next AmigaDE. Wake up and smell the coffee, economic viablility of the Amiga Market died years ago.
You're right but your analysis is again incomplete. Millions of people HAVE at least heard of the Amiga name and, if given a reason to do so --via marketing-- would spend money on it. A differentiated, unique and inspiring product would also help.
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This conversation is getting pointless and going in circles. Some think OS design is "trivial" and that the Amiga is going to take over the world.
You can't argue with baseless enthusiasm, sorry. I've been there myself, up to about 2002. In these very forums in ~2001 Wayne scoffed at the very notion I was putting forward that the Amiga could make a serious comeback. So shocking I thought, he couldn't possibly be right. I couldn't handle that iea. Wayne was right 5 (FIVE) years ago. Nothing has changed except even the dream has faded away with a wimper. The Amiga is a historic retro computer and unless you see someone with extremely deep pockets take stupid pills, it will stay that way.
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You can't argue with baseless enthusiasm, sorry. I've been there myself, up to about 2002. In these very forums in ~2001 Wayne scoffed at the very notion I was putting forward that the Amiga could make a serious comeback. So shocking I thought, he couldn't possibly be right. I couldn't handle that iea. Wayne was right 5 (FIVE) years ago. Nothing has changed except even the dream has faded away with a wimper. The Amiga is a historic retro computer and unless you see someone with extremely deep pockets take stupid pills, it will stay that way.
That's the reason I keep tell people to put their money where their mouth is. They insist there is a huge market waiting to be tapped, I say go for it, spend your own money on your dream.
Dammy
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I believe what made the Amiga such a great system back in 1985 was its innovative hardware design. Even the early OS's were innovative as well (given the time period). So what happened? A hardware design that never really got the support it could have and an OS that is caught in legal compexites (i.e. OS 4.0)
It would be nice to believe that there is some hardware design in some computer engineer's home that is as innvoative as the original design was. However, hardware aside, OS 4.0 needs to be release asap.
Imagine what could have been if Amiga (go back to Commodore) was run with focus, dedication and intelligence? (I am refering to management)
I really hope Bill and company can get their act together. If not, I fear that a similiar thread might pop up on Amiga.org five years from now (with many less Amiga users).
-Miked
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@Stone-
so far all newer amiga productions has been targeted at the enthusiast market and the last remaining fans. this market is incredible small and difficult to make any profit in.
we have yet to see a product thats targeted at the mainstream market and those potential new and has-been amiga users.
This is one of the few things you've said that makes sense. Any new product MUST reach past the existing market, as the existing market is practically nil. As for the value of Amiga, it is in the name, and nothing more, that I can see. (Lets face it, the OS is so long in the tooth that any effort to re-write it would be practically the same as starting from scratch.)
@stopthegop-
You're right but your analysis is again incomplete. Millions of people HAVE at least heard of the Amiga name [...]
True. To most people (other than the 1,000 or so users scattered between here, aw.n, moob, eab, etc.) the Amiga name carries a slight positive recognition. Not much, but having a new product starting out with a slight positive affinity never hurts.
and, if given a reason to do so --via marketing-- would spend money on it. A differentiated, unique and inspiring product would also help.
I disagree. The advantage would be needing to do less new marketing to reach the same point of sales.
I could see a company that has some cheap Taiwanese manufacturing capabilities snatching the Amiga name for a cool million, throwing it on a cheap media player of some type, and hoping for 15-20% market share against the iPod video/iRiver/Creative Zen types. Of course, that manufacturer likely wouldn't even catch the irony in the fact that they didn't bother to include the ability to play back a .anim or display an .iff. :lol:
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Well, how much capital would be required to develop and support hardware?
I personally think US$500,000 is a small amount considering the market sector for hardware and the barriers to entry.
my two cents
It almost sounds canadian the way some talk about Amiga Inc. I personally want to see them succeed as we will all succeed. We have a 12-14 year old technology, we aren't going to find too many out there to commit to our technology: let's work with who we have.
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That's the reason I keep tell people to put their money where their mouth is.
I know I have. 2 A1200s, one in a tower with PPC and mediator, another w/ stock case with a P5 1260 and BvisionPPC. And one totally loaded A4000T with every conceivable upgrade you can imagine. No warez, all legit software. Almost all of it I bought new from Dealers.
If when you say "put your money where your mouth is" you mean toward actually buying Amiga Inc. and starting work on a new hardware design? For one thing, I don't think its even officially for sale, which makes this whole discussion kind of polymical, doesn't it? Secondly, I really wish I had that kind of money because if I did, I would.
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But it's not really 12-14 year old technology. In my opinion it's only been since windows 2000 that even microsoft have really made any worthy progress beyond what Amiga OS offers as standard to the average user.
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Thats certainly true.
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@dammy
I hear you, been there myself.
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stopthegop wrote:
The marketing is easy. Hire the experts. Bill Gates, more than anyone else in history, has demonstrated the power of good advertising. Marketing is best left to the professionals. Regardless of what it costs, a good marketing strategy is worth it. Sign up for the old platinum account at Ogilvy & Mather (or other top firm) shovel a truckload of cash into a "flood the airwaves" style marketing campaign, and you're set. You could be peddling total garbage (Like Gates) and it would still reap 7 figure sales. The public (especially American) have proved this time and again.
Now this is what people seem to miss. And its mainly the purists who see Amiga as OS4. With enough funding trash can turn into treasure and sure as hell Amiga is looking trashy right now.
With fresh marketing, a new box and perhaps only backed up by a simple idea that, perhaps doesn't even do something new, but perhaps makes something easier, you'll see it snapped up and incorporated into lives like the DVD player or iPod. It all smells a little bit like convergence... but lets face it, iPod are making loads of cash out of what once sounded like one of the biggest cons of the IT boom. (iPod = the portable storage, music player, movie player, podcasts, photo album... mobiles = voice, video, camera, GPS etc.)
A company with a fresh idea, coupled with an inhouse scalable operating system plus links with hardware companies who can build systems for you... you could manufacture and deploy a new device with reduced licensing cost. Its the perfect springboard. Is this what Bill McEwen is trying to shape?
You ask on what hardware a new Amiga might run? I myself favor completely redesigned hardware made to look and "feel" like a classic Amiga -- not some stock, "me too" vanilla PPC board with an "Amiga" bios. A radical new design, something totally outside the box -- so much so that the it would be impossible for the inbread technology press to ignore it.
A flashy design saving an embattled brand of computing. Can you say Apple? ;)
Jarrod.
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recidivist wrote:
4. Have a bunch of people with no access to relevant information engage in wild speculative arguments.Ignore them.
I'm sorry recidivist, but you seem to imply that speculation is idiotic. But really, if all we had to hear all day was science fact, we'd be bored out of our brains and the tabloids would be out of business and Amiga.orgs postings would reduce to half (though this is a speculative and contentious argument also)
(start off topic philosophical rant)
Hell, we all die anyway and all our accumulated knowledge (at least to my knowledge anyway) will likely cease to exist simultaneously. In this knowledge perhaps we should just end it all now and avoid the redundancy?
(finish off topic philosophical rant)
But again, what fun is that? ;)
Jarrod.
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A flashy design saving an embattled brand of computing. Can you say Apple? ;)
I want a computer not mother-in-law in a box. Sorry, I'm just not into that scene at all. I think Apple has nothing but contempt for its users, frankly. I have some family members who are recovering Mac users. Not sure what they have now.. Anyway, I digress..
I'm with you on the philosophy bit.. :)
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stopthegop wrote:
I want a computer not mother-in-law in a box. Sorry, I'm just not into that scene at all. I think Apple has nothing but contempt for its users, frankly. I have some family members who are recovering Mac users. Not sure what they have now.. Anyway, I digress..
It's not what I would want either. But, money is money. We are talking about an asking price of 'Amiga'. Anything that would improve the marketability of Amiga technologies would be a key to a greater worth.
And if Bill McEwen would even bother spending his life energy on promoting the 'Amiga' then he *must believe* he has something worth... not thousands, not hundreds of thousands, but millions!
I guess I just wanted some lateral thinking and creativity as to what he has conceptualised in that noggin' of his as to how his company could be more valuable than the average Amiga user thinks it is.
Answers seemed to be heavily focused on the current state of AmigaOS4 or the yet forthcoming OS5... not how he could sell these developing technologies in a way that is bigger.
He may have just what we see or perhaps there is something more up his sleeve... either way, good luck to ol' Bill.
Long live entrepreneurialism and foolhardiness! ;)
Jarrod.
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stopthegop wrote:
There are some established methods of determining value:
1. Let the tax assessors do it,and appeal if not happy.
2. Offer the item/company at auction.
3. Hire professional appraisers familiar with the market.Complain if their judgment differs from yours.
4. Have a bunch of people with no access to relevant information engage in wild speculative arguments.Ignore them.
What if a person in category 4 has several years of professional experience pertaining to the professions listed in categories 1-3?
I fail to see how expertise can make up for the lack of information.Do you KNOW how much Amiga,Inc. paid for the OS writing contracts or the contract terms,or what debts otherwise exist,or any other private information/See a privately held company can keep information to themselves.
I have seen several large building contactors whom everyone thought were riding high turn out to be extremely bankrupt. Their whole operations turned ought to be really leveraged with Other People's Money. REALLY OPM,that they had no right to use.Some of the officials are doing prison time now.
NOT implying Amiga,Inc is in that position,but without information even experts can only make a W.A.G.
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I fail to see how expertise can make up for the lack of information.Do you KNOW how much Amiga,Inc. paid for the OS writing contracts or the contract terms,or what debts otherwise exist,or any other private information/See a privately held company can keep information to themselves.
I have seen several large building contactors whom everyone thought were riding high turn out to be extremely bankrupt. Their whole operations turned ought to be really leveraged with Other People's Money. REALLY OPM,that they had no right to use.Some of the officials are doing prison time now.
NOT implying Amiga,Inc is in that position,but without information even experts can only make a W.A.G.
This is all in the realm of hypothetical anyway; chill. Like you said, lots of variables we just don't know about. The whole discussion is based on "what-ifs", things we don't know and can't predict. The only real constant I think is that all of us would like to see new, futuristic, differentiated Amiga hardware. Or maybe we don't all share that desire, dunno..? Either way, I think discussions such as this are a healthy way of examining the myriad of possible contingencies. A way of predicting the future by a series of educated guesses. I see it as a way to identify possible failures, hopefully with enough foresight to preempt them.
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I think Amiga could come back like Apple has if they get the money and brains to market/advertise (whatever they choose) with unwavering dedication, determination and grit (you know like a pitbull latches onto a steak type attitude)
Like for instance:
I wonder why this video/similar isn't EVERYWHERE?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4041270341638854546&q=amiga+os&hl=en
Stuff like the above should be an embedded vid on websites. Its easy and cheap. Before some of you say poo, remember its the hustle that counts & I think that's how MS won in the first place (sure as hell wasn't their product...)
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Just to shed some light on my point of view (very new to amiga). I stumbled onto amiga by references to dpaint. i really enjoy pixel art, anyways. I am quite surprised by how expandable, and upgradeable an amiga is. you can still make them a decently fast machine, and they haven't been in production in years. one of the main reasons i bought my 4000D was to get back to the basic of hardware/programming. that and I love to fiddle with computers. to me, amiga OS is similar to BeOS, which I loved. with the way computers are heading this day, a small affordable "media pc" would be the way to go to get amiga out there. of course this is a newbie current opinion, and should probably be taken lightly. if there were more people interested in actual computers and not just using them for mudane tasks, the amiga scene would be much larger.
my 2 1/2 cents
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if there were more people interested in actual computers and not just using them for mudane tasks, the amiga scene would be much larger.
I agree. Unfortunately the herds of sheeple seem to prefer mundane tasks to ones which require a cerebrol cortex.
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I agree. Unfortunately the herds of sheeple seem to prefer mundane tasks to ones which require a cerebrol cortex.
Please stop mixing "I like" with "market value", Amiga from 1984 will never happen again. Back in 80's one-man company could make the change in computer market, today it's simply not possible.
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neon32 wrote:
But it's not really 12-14 year old technology. In my opinion it's only been since windows 2000 that even microsoft have really made any worthy progress beyond what Amiga OS offers as standard to the average user.
As far as I remember already Win95 came with integrated browser and TCP/IP - something the Amiga OS is lacking up to now...
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thedaemon wrote:
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I am quite surprised by how expandable, and upgradeable an amiga is. you can still make them a decently fast machine, and they haven't been in production in years.
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Yes - this is what still fascinates me as well, although I'm an Amigan already since 1989...
thedaemon wrote:
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with the way computers are heading this day, a small affordable "media pc" would be the way to go to get amiga out there.
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Thats exactly the way I'm feeling since about a year - there definitely is a need for such an item.
But it should be an real attractive alternative pricewise to what people use today for listening to music/mp3s, to watch movies, to surf the web and write some e-mails.
I mean - if the average user today buys a Wintel box, he is funding the development of things he himself has no use for, never favoured and would never spend a dime on.
The effect is that the users pay for things that just companies and professionals need - so these features just needed by companies and professionals can become cheaper for them.
If you can get millions of people to pay for things they do not need nor want but are included in the product anyway, then the product becomes cheaper as if just the few thousands who actually need these particular features bought the product.
(Writing this I had e.g. Windows's support for networking and multiuser or this DRM thingie in mind, which is not needed by the average user but by companies and professionals and bloats the code - at least from an "average user's" POV)
So the "average users" really could be better off (financially) if all the stuff that companies and professionals need was not included in the product.
So I would come to the conclusion that it would be better to split this product (OS) into (at least) two different products (one to satisfy the needs of companies and professionals and the other one to meet the needs of the "average users") than to have an "oviparous wool-milk-sow"-like product.
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@charliestu
(apart from when post-Commodore the brand name appeared in 1993-4 on Chelsea FC shirts before unfair stuffing in 1994 FA Cup Final
Erm, wasn't it 4-0? If Chelsea had lost by one goal that was offside or something I could understand but 4-0 unfair? You're having a laugh :-)
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Dandy wrote:
As far as I remember already Win95 came with integrated browser and TCP/IP - something the Amiga OS is lacking up to now...
It's easy to talk about how important it is now to have a TCP-IP stack incorperated into the OS now that the internet has become such a big thing. Back in the early nineties the internet was nothing to what it is now. In a way you could consider it a fluke that the whole TCP-IP thing worked out, i'm pretty sure it wasn't expected or planned back then, if i remember correctly Bill Gates was quoted to saying that the internet is just a fad and people will get bored of it soon enough, so it's only because pc's where made to be used in offices and created so they could be networked together that they already had the features incorperated to allow the internet to develop the way it has.