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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: irishmike on September 09, 2006, 11:16:02 PM
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Hello Everyone:
I am inspired by the recent thread regarding the Phoenix Motherboard for the A1000 (see this (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24430) link.) and by discussion of making retro hardware replacements using newer technologies.
I must state that before I begin, I have *some* electronics background at component level from when I repaired VCRs. I do not have the ability to do something like I am about to suggest however, but would gladly be involved if someone wants to tackle the project in helping prototyping. That being said, this is, in fact, a dream of mine :-)
I would LOVE to see a new A4000 Motherboard that fit into a ATX SFF case (even though there would need to be a way to support Zorro Cards and that makes this likely to need to fit into a standard Mini Tower configuration most likely). This would be a board that you could simply plug your A4000 ROMs into and it would be a retro machine made with current hardware. This idea comes from looking into replacing my octal Amplifier chip on my A4000D mainboard and finding that the chip exists but only in a flatpack surface mount package, the DIP is no longer made.
So, the question is: If we eliminate the processor board and daughterboard and put those onto this new board... making it say an 060 processor (which you can actually find in old Macs in abundance) or taking the Crusoe approach and writing a "buffer" that translates the calls into the language of the processor of your choice (yes this is emulation, but in hardware rather than software -- so much, much faster). And making the support from there on in smaller than the old formfactor. Is there any interest in doing this? If so, I am interested in exploring it a bit more. At this time, I am not thinking of any kind of mass production at all, just to prove the concept and then see what the market interest level would be. I need a lot of help to prototype it though!
The advantages are obvious in that we could use newer RAM technologies and newer processors, but the machine would be a core Amiga 4000 retro style.
Anyhow, this is my grand idea and I am hoping people with more engineering skills than I are interested in this. It is a way to preserve the retro part and if done correctly, could support the NEW OS of your choice as well just by tuning the "emulation" circuit.
It would be so cool. And I know the hardware emulation is possible because I have seen this done. (Don't remember who did it, but they basically programmed an entire Mac SE into a dongle).
Anyhow, this is really just in my head right now, if you have interest in making my idea into a reality... chime on in or PM me if you like.
I am sure it will be a technical challenge! Consider yourselves warned :-)
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The problem you will have wil be replicating the custom chips from the Amiga motherboard. The schematics are long gone, and you wouldn't be able to see them even if they existed.
Dennis is doing basically what you have said but with the A500. It has taken him a long time to replicate the functionality of the custom chips. It may be worth talking to him if this is really something you want to do.
--
moto
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A nice dream!
irishmike wrote:
...an 060 processor (which you can actually find in old Macs in abundance)
But I thought Apple went PPC after the '040 and never produced any machines with '060s in them as standard?
It'd be great if there was a great cheap source of 68060s, but I'm not sure how likely this is...
In any case, a replacement board made of new hardware would be great... Especially if it could have a few tweaks like a native chunky (or RTG?) graphics mode, built-in scandoubler, etc!
- Ali
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With all new computers starting to use dual core CPUs and the success of Dennis' Minimig and the great progress made with WinUAE, I wonder if it would be possible to create Amiga compatible hardware and software without the need for the old custom chips?
Use all the power of the second core to emulate the custom chips, while the first core emulates the 680x0 CPU.
Alternatively, with the info gained by Dennis' Minimig project, replace the custom chips with FGPAs and put them on a PCIE board and modify WinUAE, or EUAE to take advantage of them.
Amiga is far from dead and the possibilities are endless. I am looking forward to great progress over the next 10 to 20 years as the interest in retro computing is just now starting to gain momentum.
@ IntheSand, Yes, I think you are correct, Apple never installed any 68060 CPUs in their machines.
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@motorollin
Yep the custom chips would be challenging as you have to figure out what the inputs and outputs do at the machine level. :-)
But like I stated, it is quite a technical challenge.
Can you PM with more info on contacting Dennis? I would appreciate it.
@intheSand
Hey Ali. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
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making it say an 060 processor (which you can actually find in old Macs in abundance)
There we no Macs with 060 CPU made, ever. You can't find 060s from Macs, at all.
Anyway, the thing you're looking for is WinUAE. That's the closest you can get.
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@piru
No sir, WinUAE is NOT what I am looking for. I am looking for a complete retro computer in hardware but built with newer components. And if ANY emulation is to be done, it will be in very fast hardware ROMs instead of by software.
Plus, WinUAE requires Windows and that junk I will not run. E-UAE has disapointed me and so I am seeking a full hardware solution. That is precisely why I stated everything the way I stated it.
Of course, I do respect that this is your opinion :-)
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@irishmike
Right, I understand all that. And IMO you will not see such hardware solution, ever, and thus the closest you can get is WinUAE.
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@piru
Once again, I can not buy that as I am planning to do the engineering on the hardware, though not by myself :-) WinUAE is not the answer!
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And if ANY emulation is to be done, it will be in very fast hardware ROMs instead of by software.
What on earth does that mean?
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@imaboring person
It means the emulation would be in the hardware and NOT the software if indeed the project will include emulation, it would be my preference that there is no emulation necessary, but because we will have to divine what the custom chips do, there would be hardware emulation of those chips.
Hope that helps clear up my statement for you :-)
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@irishmike
What's wrong with software emulation? It's 1000x cheaper to produce, at least. And faster/price aswell.
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'It is a way to preserve the retro part and if done correctly, could support the NEW OS of your choice as well just by tuning the "emulation" circuit.'
Which new OSes are you thinking of here? OS4/MOS/AROS?
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@odin
Greetings:
Well, the idea being that it would run any modern OS you would like... as long as the OS in question is supported by the chosen processor or could be likewise ran through a form of emulation.
@piru
I personally think that software emulation is often too slow, plus if I am using the emulator, my system resources are normally tied up with the emulator, and as I explained, I would not be able to use WinUAE because I will not use Windows, if there was that level emulator on the Macintosh platform (including the whole GUI siutation) I might use the emulator.
I prefer the original hardware anyhow, and my goal is to build good replacements with modern as well as retro functionality. Hardware is always faster than software and in the case of the dongle I mentioned, runs rings around any software emulator for the Mac SE. In fact, the guy's emulator dongle ran faster than the original machine did... he had to slow it down a little to maintain compatibility.
Besides, even in WinUAE I can not say I want it to be a A4000 with video toaster running a Warp Engine. The hardware emulation could be made to emulate all of this, not that we are thinking of this level, but it is not as limited as the current emulators. When they get these things emulated and cut down on System resource usage, then I will be more inclined to look at software emulation as the solution.
If you are happy with the current emulator, by all means use it, but I am looking for a better solution :-)
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..if anything.. at least we'll have dreams. lol
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@everyone
I am glad to see people's input on my idea!!!
Since I have not even began to work out the details of the project (other than it would be a hardware replacement for an Amiga 4000 (D), you all are helping me to hash out some ideas.
Again, the spirit of this thread is to see if anyone is interested in helping to work out the details for a prototype.
For future, EMULATION, refers to mainly hardware chips such as AGA, Buster 11, processor of choice (if not a Motorola processor), it is NOT taking WinUAE and making it a ROM chip!
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I personally think that software emulation is often too slow,
Well it's faster than hardware emulation of any reasonable price.
I will not use Windows, if there was that level emulator on the Macintosh platform (including the whole GUI siutation) I might use the emulator.
Considering Macs are now x86, expect JIT emulation for it soon.
Hardware is always faster than software
Not really. Unless if you're ready to produce hardware that emulates amiga HW faster than some x86 CPU + UAE. It won't be easy. It won't be cheap.
in the case of the dongle I mentioned, runs rings around any software emulator for the Mac SE.
I seriously doubt that. Or of that is the case, the Mac SE emulators are piss poor.
he had to slow it down a little to maintain compatibility.
So what's the point of the speed if you have to slow it down anyway? Doesn't compute.
Besides, even in WinUAE I can not say I want it to be a A4000 with video toaster running a Warp Engine. The hardware emulation could be made to emulate all of this, not that we are thinking of this level, but it is not as limited as the current emulators.
Bad argument. Software emulation can be done to do anything hardware can, only cheaper and easier.
If you are happy with the current emulator, by all means use it, but I am looking for a better solution
I'm not using UAE myself, but eh... hardware solution called Pegasos II.
Anyway, feel free to pursue your dreams. But I still think you're not seeing the whole picture here.
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@piru
Okay set up WinUAE exactly the way I want it and send me the config file.
I want to emulate an A4000 060 with Warp Engine and Video toaster.
pending that, the software emulator will not work *for me*.
also, my mac is PPC, so it will not support any form of WinUAE.
you are TOTALLY missing what I am trying to do if you are stuck in software emulation land anyhow :-)
The entire point is to have replacement hardware for the retro hardware and the UAE emulators do not enter into it.
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*** That was supposed to be edit. If some mod reads this, feel free to zap. ***
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Well, good luck with your HW project. Let us know when you have it running, emulating Warp Engine and Video Toaster.
(I've only seen it from the sidelines how hard it's to create new HW. However, even that small bit has given me totally new appreciation for the complexity of the task, skill of the people involded and resources/money required.)
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@piru
thanks for the well wishing.
Just for the record, I don't intend to emulate the warp engine or video toaster, but those cards will be supported by the mainboard as if it was a A4000 Mainboard. The difference (and once again the point) is to replace the aging hardware with modern hardware in an effort to preserve the retro computing experience.
As stated above, EMULATION refers to the functioning of custom chips.
I guess I can't make that any clearer... there is no UAE in the plan.
@everyone
If you are interested in participating in the prototyping of this replacement motherboard, please let me know. Somehow, the thread went off-topic.
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Now that macs are windows friendly I wonder if windows won't simply push macOS out of existence ;unless Apple are planning to become an alternate OS supplier to the standard pc,I think they just committed OS suicide with the last changes. Apple may have a new niche as those really cool brand of Windows computers.
So why would anybody do a new UAE if the Windows version run on Apple too?
Boot up MacOS on your G5 machine ,run the PC emulator , run Windows,then run Amiga Forever;voila,the experience of a A500 at 7mhz.
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edited out bt me.
:crazy:
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@spihunter
Some call it pessimism, I call it realism. However, I've tried to keep it my opinion. I admit I sometimes can be a bit stubborn, but we all have our failings.
Ideas are to be commented upon, I've brought up my view that this is not very sensible project. But, as always, if someone has the skills to do something like this, has the resources and the money, why the dell not... :-)
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@irishmike
First, my apoligies for not actually reading the initial post with thought. I can now see what you're after, really, and why UAE won't cut it.
If you really are thinking about this, the person you want to talk to is indeed Dennis. Yet, it won't be easy, it won't be cheap, and it for sure isn't going to be sensible in my point of view.
But, as always, ignore the naysayers, and go for your dream. :-)
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recidivist wrote:
Now that macs are windows friendly I wonder if windows won't simply push macOS out of existence ;unless Apple are planning to become an alternate OS supplier to the standard pc,I think they just committed OS suicide with the last changes. Apple may have a new niche as those really cool brand of Windows computers.
I have discussed this issue ad nauseum with colleagues and we have come to a simple conclusion: moving to x86 was a brilliant move by Apple.
First, MacOS X moves to x86, then comes Boot Camp. Supposedly very soon you will actually be able to switch between Windows and Mac without rebooting! This is sheer brilliance in the scope of pulling people away from Windows and to Mac. Many people I speak to who deal with the two platforms prefer Mac but are kept away by the expensive hardware. Generally (and I fall into an exception of this as well) those who say they do not prefer Mac over Windows cut their teeth on Windows and are fully assimilated into Wintel.
But it's the younger generation. Gamers are moving in droves. Up-and-coming web developers and graphics artists are coming back to Mac after having left for less expensive hardware. As are film students. Microsoft has a helluva fight on its hands, and it has all but admitted so (I have a post in another thread about what was said at a recent TS2 seminar about Vista's Mac-ish qualities.)
Apple is cool, they made the iPod. And Mac is cool because of Apple -- a recent ad I read for Mac OS says (paraphrasing) "if you're familiar with iTunes, you're already familiar with Mac OS."
For the same reasons above I stated in another thread that should Amiga make a comeback, it would have to be on x86 or x64. And the same reasons above are why Apple chose x86 over x64, though I believe that 64-bit should be in their mid-term road map.
Errrr, I'm out of steam on this one (it's in the wrong forum, anyway.) Time for bed. HEY, how 'bout them Noles?! :cheers:
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As far as realism think of all the money spent on various other recreational pursuits.Bowling lane or golf greens fees,concert or ball game tickets
Now I don't know about other countries, but Americans buy hundreds of thousands of very expensive travel trailers and mootorized land yachts? as well as boats of all sorts. MOST of those $50,000 recreational vehicles sit unused except for the annual vacation week and some weekend trips to camping parks. At those camps the people then pay even more money for parking their home away from home.
Yet they might have stayed at a five star hotel for less annual cost.
When it comes to recreation people are most irrational.
So if we just classify Amiga retro computing as recreation then money is no longer the showstopper.
So let him make his updated SuperAmigaClone and I will applaud.And perhaps irrationaly buy one!buying the used 3D video and accelerator card and A3000 when the same money would have gotten a very nice PC proves I am not rational,doesn't it?
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@recidivist:
you're right about what "Americans" spend money on.. hell, I've spent $40k on my race car in the past two years...but I'd rather spend $40k on my hobby then $40K on a motherboard in a small niche market with little hope for return on my investment. Going bowling, playing golf or going to the game..I do all 3 but not often because it would get old. More power to irishmike if he'll GIT R DUN. If the A1 mobo was available, we'd have two hardware solutions..but for now there is only one and its one hell of a solution.
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Hello All:
I do have to make a correction... after researching a bit more to confirm, it is absolutely true that Apple Macintoshes never had a 68060 processor in shipping units. They jumped from 040's to the PPC 601.
So my statement about the abundance of 060 processors from used Macs is in error, but 040's could be in abundance anyhow :-)
It is never my intention to mislead anyone :-)
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It's interesting the way Amiga is going at this moment: rather like (in evolutionary terms) emergence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)
We have an Open Source Amiga OS clone (AROS)...
... and development of hardware at the processor level by an individual rather than a company (MiniMig)...
... and now a proposal for an open(?) platform, also beginning from a fundamental hardware level.
Thinking, not of now, but of future possibilities: imagine not just having an operating system to play with and customize, but the underlying hardware too! And Open Source hardware can evolve and improve along with the software.
This is way beyond the ambitions of any other project such as Linux.
And, oddly enough somehow, it seems in keeping with the original 'spirit of Amiga'...