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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: mr_a500 on September 01, 2006, 07:10:13 PM
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Amiga 500 with Viper 520 (33Mhz 68020/68882, 8Mb Fast RAM, 3.0 ROMs, 40Gb 2.5" IDE HD), Mini-Megi 2Mb Chip, ECS Denise, WB 3.1.
Super-long description of problem follows:
My A500 is crashing more and more often and I need help to find where the possible problem could be. I'm sure it's a hardware problem because I just tested two older harddrives containing my old software configurations that didn't have this problem before and now do. So it shouldn't be software related or harddrive related (Maxtransfer, filesystem, etc). Here is the history and possible hints (that may or may not be related, but I'll list anyway just in case):
About a year and a half ago, my keyboard reset (Amiga-Amiga-Ctrl) stopped working. About a year ago, I started getting a random crash in IBrowse when dragging vertical scrollbars (main and edit scrollbars). Then I started getting lots of WHDload random "Line emulator 1111" failures (but usually OK after a reboot). I don't know if the IBrowse scrollbar crash continued because I started scrolling with keyboard instead of mouse.
About 9 months ago I changed the IBrowse default to not display pictures (for speed) and only displayed pictures on certain sites. A few months after that, I switched back to display pictures and started getting IBrowse Network crashes (4 at a time - one for each open connection), IBrowse crashes and Miami crashes.
It is getting worse and now I get a guaranteed crash every single time after I have browsed about 20 pages with pictures on. It seems to happen when all Fast RAM is used up and there is 500-800K of Chip left. Memory doesn't seem to be getting freed. After rebooting after the crash, Scout usually says the last failure was either "Line emulator 1111", "Line emulator 1010", general CPU fault, error in exec or illegal instruction. GURUs are usually 80000004, 80000005 (these two the most common), 80000003, 80000006 and 8000000B. I also get some rare strange numbers.
WHDload fails much more often, usually with "Illegal instruction $10" or "Line emulator 1111". Some games that ran fine before now never run. I couldn't even use the latest WHDload 16.6 because it always fails.
I'm getting strange failures in programs that never had problems before. I've had lots of crashes starting ABCdir with FKey (instant crash when pressing key) that I never had before this month. I get increasing problems where double-click in ABCdir causes ABCdir to freeze - most times I can close ABCdir after that, but some times it is totally non-responsive. I've used ABCdir every day for 4 years and never had this happening before. Also, SongPlayer (set to play AHI 14bit calibrated on 16 colour WB screen) now crashes after playing for about 19 seconds. If I play while switching to an 8 or 2 colour screen, it doesn't crash (major clue here?). This also only started recently.
I tried memory defragmenters, memory tests and any diagnostic programs I could find on Aminet (there weren't many). I tried configuring IBrowse to leave 1Mb Chip and 1Mb fast, but this has no effect (besides, I never had problems before). I made sure all chips were firmly pressed down and all cards removed and reinserted.
So does anyone know what this problem sounds like and how I can diagnose it? If it is a CPU or FPU problem, how can I determine it for sure? Are there any good hardware diagnostic programs?
Edit: I just saw in Scout the previous failure says "Alert task: $DEADBABE"! Could I have a virus?? I have the latest VirusZ and it shows nothing.
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Not sure if it's related, but there was a virus that inserted DEADBABE into memory:
http://www.vht-dk.dk/vhtdk/amiga/desc/txt/conclip.htm
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This may NOT be helpful advise, so I apologise in advance if it isn't. This type of hardware failure is what made me pretty much give up on classic Amiga hardware for myself. Lately I only use Amiga Forever in conjunction with a Catweasel MK4. The nice thing about AF, it is just about any hardware configuration you need and it is the FASTEST Amiga compatible possible fore modern stuff.
As for your specific hardware problems, wish I could help. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the old open her up and reseat all custom chips. Worth a shot.
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uncleted wrote:
Not sure if it's related, but there was a virus that inserted DEADBABE into memory:
http://www.vht-dk.dk/vhtdk/amiga/desc/txt/conclip.htm
That looks pretty relevant from here. Especially given it is supposed to flash up a DEADBABE alert afer a reset.
I'd get an up to date virus check on the go. Preferably having booted it from another device.
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Sometimes old computers just get tired.
It's clearly a serious problem. Can you change your chip mem expansion or try running without it for a while?
After that, perhaps you should try a new motherboard.
Narrow it down bit by bit.
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Not sure if it's related, but there was a virus that inserted DEADBABE into memory:
That scared me, but it doesn't look related. I checked my conclip and it looks OK. The size is different and I don't see any of the strings described when looking at the binary. I don't get any of the stupid popups described. I also did another virus check of Workbench and nothing came up. Thanks for the link though. If it is a virus, then it must be new not to show up with the latest xvs.library. Does anybody know how to check for a virus not yet known? If it's a link virus, I guess I can do filesize checks against backups or compare dates.
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is the old open her up and reseat all custom chips. Worth a shot.
As I said, I already did that.
The nice thing about AF, it is just about any hardware configuration you need and it is the FASTEST Amiga compatible possible fore modern stuff.
I have AmigaForever, but I don't have a PC and don't ever plan on buying one (I bought AF years ago when I had a work notebook to use). WinUAE is OK, but still far from perfect. I'd still rather use a dying real Amiga than a flawed emulation (especially if it's running on Windows). When I buy a Mac in a year or so, I'll try UAE then.
Sometimes old computers just get tired.
It's clearly a serious problem. Can you change your chip mem expansion or try running without it for a while?
I already tried running without the A501 (and opened the A501 to check for battery leaks), but still got the crashes. Maybe I've been pushing the poor old thing too hard and it's finally wearing out. I just wish I could isolate where the problem is to see if it is something I can replace or fix.
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Hi,
Have you tried removing and re-inserting the CPU, Kickstart and other socketed chips?
Are you using the original A500 PSU?
I have uploaded a diagnostic disk with repoair utilities on my website at www.ianstedman.co.uk/PU288.DMS (http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/PU288.DMS)
If you uncompress this disk, you can either boot from it or if you are in workbench, run the program 'S17' from the root directory. This is the original C= A500/A2000 diagnostics program.
Good luck,
Ian
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I have uploaded a diagnostic disk with repoair utilities on my website at www.ianstedman.co.uk/PU288.DMS
Thanks. I ran all the tests, but I think they are too old to be useful (most 1987 or 1988). One test said I had 1Mb Chip when I actually have 2Mb Chip and it said I had no harddrive (have 40Gb HD). I ran the s17 test and all tests passed when I disabled disk test and _blit. The disk test fails (probably expects 1988 SCSI harddrive and OFS) and the _blit test works for a bit, then crashes (maybe not expecting 2Mb Agnus).
Are you using the original A500 PSU?
Yes. I don't think power is a problem or I'd see screen flickering when drives are in use or get crashes during heavy load like copying between HD and floppy (and I don't).
Have you tried removing and re-inserting the CPU, Kickstart and other socketed chips?
The CPU and Kickstart chips are on the Viper and are not socketed. As I said before, I already removed and re-inserted all cards and pushed down all socketed chips.
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if I were you, I would build the system from ground up to locate the problem. this I mean first bare system and workbench floppy. then fresh workbench install on hd. then 030 and some apps... and so on.
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Hi,
Look on the underside of the A500 PSU, what are the ratings?
Some A500 PSUs can only supply 5V @ 2.5 Amps, your system may be demanding too much. Not all A500 PSUs are the same, see here. (http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/Amiga/amiga_hacks/Amiga_Power_supplies/body_amiga_power_supplies.html#Stock_Amiga_Power_Supply_ratings)
I have experienced Emulator 1111 and similar problems when I had 'dirty' connectors on a CPU expansion card. Switch cleaner and isopropyl alcohol on the connectors fixed that.
Finally, an A500 repair/fault finding guide on Aminet,
A500/A200 repairs (http://de5.aminet.net/hard/hack/Amigafix.txt) and
A500 hardware hacks, with some useful tips. (http://de5.aminet.net/hard/hack/500hacks.txt)
Good luck.
Ian
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Look on the underside of the A500 PSU, what are the ratings?
Some A500 PSUs can only supply 5V @ 2.5 Amps, your system may be demanding too much. Not all A500 PSUs are the same, see here.
My power supply is 5V @ 4.5 Amps.
if I were you, I would build the system from ground up to locate the problem. this I mean first bare system and workbench floppy. then fresh workbench install on hd. then 030 and some apps... and so on.
The 020 and HD are on the same card (HD can't be run without having 020 enabled). If I remove the card, I won't be able to run any of the programs where the crash is predictable (no HD, no 3.0, no RAM).
The only thing I can do is remove the Mini-Megi and replace the original Agnus and test for the crash. (bit of a pain that requires removal of chip, replacement of Agnus and removal of Gary chip from chip extender and back in slot, then put it all back again later) I think I'll try something easier for now, like removing the FPU and see what happens.
Does anybody know what exactly line emulator 1111 and 1010 errors are? Can the many illegal instruction errors be caused by a "dying" CPU? Can an overheated CPU develop flaws which can cause these failures? Now that I remember, these problems only started getting bad after I did a 3-day VistaPro animation render. Could I have fried (or mildly baked) my CPU? (but other CPU intensive tasks like image decoding don't seem to cause problems)
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mr_a500 wrote:
Sometimes old computers just get tired.
It's clearly a serious problem. Can you change your chip mem expansion or try running without it for a while?
I already tried running without the A501 (and opened the A501 to check for battery leaks), but still got the crashes. Maybe I've been pushing the poor old thing too hard and it's finally wearing out. I just wish I could isolate where the problem is to see if it is something I can replace or fix.
I recommend you purchase a good A500+ and transfer only your turbo board, roms, and hard drive to it, and run with that for a while. You can even get 2mb chip mem without much trouble or expense for the duration of the test. It's a cost-effective way to begin to narrow down which part could be malfunctioning.
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Good idea. I've got an old ratty obscenely yellow A500 (that smells of cat piss) that I got recently for parts. I'll plug the Viper in that one (and hope it doesn't foul my beloved Viper) and if the problem still occurs, it must then be a problem on the card. If not, then it's a problem with something in the original A500.
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Mr.A500,
did you ever figure out what was wrong with your setup?
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rare_j wrote:
Sometimes old computers just get tired.
It's clearly a serious problem. Can you change your chip mem expansion or try running without it for a while?
After that, perhaps you should try a new motherboard.
Narrow it down bit by bit.
"Tired" isn't really a very helpful description, but he's on the right track as far as checking things. If you have an unknown problem, isolate it. Remove components that you can (which in a 500 means pretty much just add-ons like RAM, accelerators, and sidecar thingies) and see if the problem still comes up. See if any chips are unusually hot when its been running for a while. If you have a spare A500, maybe try swapping out some chips one at a time and letting it run until you get the crash.
If youre seeing a "deadbabe" error though... is that a normal Amiga error? If thats just an error from a certain virus, that seems kinda likely to me. Considering Amiga's have "guru meditations" though, it wouldnt surprise me if "deadbabe" is a real Amiga error.
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If it's not a virus, it may be
- defective/weak PSU: check voltages
- defective RAM: reduce/remove/replace RAM
- heat related: test system without covers
When I expanded my A3000 from 8 to 12 MB fast RAM (years ago) I began to get strange problems (corrupted graphics in ADPro, crashes, ...). I ran every RAM test I could find: nothing. Then I ran a test in part of the RAM while running applications: bang. Finally I tried running simultaneous tests of different parts of RAM: loads of errors. Removing the mainboard I finally found two address pins on a ZIP socket unsoldered.
Conclusion: There's something to be desired when it comes to RAM testing an Amiga.
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I would concur with Zac67.
It looks to me as part of your RAM is misbehaving and you only start getting problems when your system's memory usage gets to a certain point.
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I have AmigaForever, but I don't have a PC and don't ever plan on buying one (I bought AF years ago when I had a work notebook to use). WinUAE is OK, but still far from perfect. I'd still rather use a dying real Amiga than a flawed emulation (especially if it's running on Windows).
You really should try a modern version of WinUAE on a modern PC (say 2Ghz with 1GB ram on WinXP) - you honestly won't be able to tell that it isn't a real Amiga. Well, except for the fact that it will feel like it's using a 800+MHz 68060, and that you can have a high-res 24-bit display, and 16-bit AHI sound...
It will even emulate the floppy disk drive noise, for full effect :-)
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eslapion wrote:
I would concur with Zac67.
It looks to me as part of your RAM is misbehaving and you only start getting problems when your system's memory usage gets to a certain point.
You can confirm this by filling up your RAM disk with files to use up all the RAM.
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moto
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ChrisH wrote:
I have AmigaForever, but I don't have a PC and don't ever plan on buying one
You really should try a modern version of WinUAE on a modern PC
I know people mean well by suggesting "use UAE", but this is clearly not what the OP wants to do. His query is regarding faults using original Amiga hardware which he wishes to preserve. He obviously has no interest in UAE at this time. So suggesting using UAE is actually not very helpful, even if it was well intentioned.
I don't intend to offend anyone who wants to help, but it is a little annoying when every single hardware thread seems to have at least one person saying "use UAE".
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
I know people mean well by suggesting "use UAE", but this is clearly not what the OP wants to do. His query is regarding faults using original Amiga hardware which he wishes to preserve. He obviously has no interest in UAE at this time. So suggesting using UAE is actually not very helpful, even if it was well intentioned.
I don't intend to offend anyone who wants to help, but it is a little annoying when every single hardware thread seems to have at least one person saying "use UAE".
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moto
I know what you mean moto. I myself will always have a thing for the old hardware. It is fun memorable.
However the unfortunate reality is that a lot of the hardware is just dying, and only places like Amigakit are actually able to sell NOS 1200s. (I must commend them for that as well)
WinUAE is solid and has improved loads over the years, and is so quick to set up; I myself can't really blame people for recommending it.
You never know, maybe the Minimig will change all of this... ;-)
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Check the PSU and other parts for failing capacitors. They *dry* with age. Also consider that if you value your equipment. Consider to put it on an online UPS. And beware of any "modified sinus" stuff.
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@Fixer
I am not disputing the benefits of UAE. But there are those (myself included) for whom using the original Amiga hardware is part of the fun of the Amiga. UAE just isn't the same.
I'm sure most people are able to make the decision themselves whether to persevere with their original hardware or scrap it and move to UAE. The fact that somebody posts a message asking for help fixing their hardware suggests that they have chosen the former option, and aren't looking for information on UAE.
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moto
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Some ppl may feel tired of me saying always the same thing, but:
CHANGE ALL ELECTROLITHICS FROM MOTHERBOARD AND PSU EVERY 3 OR 5 YEARS!:-o
That prevents a lot hardware failures. And is cheaper than send the whole package to amiga center in France. :-)
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motorollin wrote:
I am not disputing the benefits of UAE. But there are those (myself included) for whom using the original Amiga hardware is part of the fun of the Amiga. UAE just isn't the same.
Agreed... telling someone to use UAE is kind of like telling someone of the benefits of a shiny new machine-made violin and how its easier than trying to use some beat up old Stradivarius.
It may be in my imagination, but Amigas have a feel you dont get from emulators. The video display has a warmth you don't get from a PC display emulating an Amiga. An emulated Amiga just doesn't seem to have quite the same look, sound and feel.
Also, for some of us, the challenge of keeping old machines working is a big part of the fun. With an emulated Amiga, you're just using a PC with disposable parts that can be replaced at your choice of several hundred local McPC shops. Some people enjoy maintaining and using vintage cars. We enjoy maintaining vintage computers.
If you just want to run some old programs on something thats not really an Amiga, UAE is great. UAE doesn't do a damn thing for me though.
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@motorollin
I wasn't suggesting UAE, I was merly pointing out that his comment on UAE was waaaay out of date.
And sorry if every other thread gets a comment on UAE, but I don't usually read this site, so I had no idea.
Personally speaking, I've been using Amithlon & then WinUAE for over 6 years (since my BlizzPPC+BVision was unstable by design), and have never looked back. I find it quite difficult to understand why someone would still want to use incredibly slow & unreliable hardware to do modern stuff like browsing the internet, playing/encoding MP3s, etc.
Any way, sorry for diverting the thread.
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Zac67 wrote:
When I expanded my A3000 from 8 to 12 MB fast RAM (years ago) I began to get strange problems (corrupted graphics in ADPro, crashes, ...). I ran every RAM test I could find: nothing. Then I ran a test in part of the RAM while running applications: bang. Finally I tried running simultaneous tests of different parts of RAM: loads of errors. Removing the mainboard I finally found two address pins on a ZIP socket unsoldered.
Interesting, Zac. What's your take on why the errors would show up during concurrent tests? Maybe increased bandwidth caused more heat and thus caused the pins to dialate and thus affect contact?
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No - the missing address bits caused some memory locations to be blended together: e.g. you write $00000000 to location X and $FFFFFFFF to location Y, and after that you'd read $00800000 from X, because one bit appears shared between the two addresses. The chip has the address bit disconnected and thus can't distinguish between both memory locations.
None of the available test could show this, they just seem to write a pattern to a whole block, read it back and compare the results. When the very same pattern is used on the whole block, you can't see a problem - you'd have to use different patterns to locate non-uniqueness problems.
I knew the problem was in the last 4 MB block (Amy worked fine before), so I used 4 instances of the same tool to test 1 MB each - running them simultaneously immediately showed that memory addresses were not unique and a bit more testing (plus a tiny C routine) revealed there actually were several different address patterns that overwrote each other. Before disassembling the machine (quite a feat on the 3k) I had it narrowed down to a single chip and the exact pins that must have been the problem. I expected damaged trace, bent pins but found - the contacts cleanly suspended in the middle of the hole without any solder. :-P
If you want to try this: boot the system w/o startup-sequence and shell run the RAM test tool for, say 1 MB each. A bad contact on an address bit will show up very quickly; maybe there's also a better tool around today, I can't remember what I used back then.
Errors in the RAM chips may be very hard to find - on a PC I've had memtest86 running for nearly a day before a single bit error showed up that had repeated crashed the machine. If it's in a vital area, it'll cause a crash quickly, but if it's intermittant, the test software may have difficulties locating it.
PS: Just checked on the Viper: the RAM is soldered to the board?? That'll make it very hard to swap for testing and also very hard to find a replacement...
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Zac67 wrote:
No - the missing address bits caused some memory locations to be blended together: e.g. you write $00000000 to location X and $FFFFFFFF to location Y, and after that you'd read $00800000 from X, because one bit appears shared between the two addresses. The chip has the address bit disconnected and thus can't distinguish between both memory locations.
Aha! I get it! Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I guess it would not be very hard to make a memory tester do "zoned writes", so that each zone has different patterns, and then proceed to read each memory zone and see if it has the original pattern or not. This way only a single instance is needed. Now I wonder if memtest86 does this... (I've not seen something to this effect)
Zac67 wrote:
disassembling the machine (quite a feat on the 3k) I had it narrowed down to a single chip and the exact pins that must have been the problem. I expected damaged trace, bent pins but found - the contacts cleanly suspended in the middle of the hole without any solder. :-P
Hahaha! That's impressive "divide and conquer" problem targeting :-)
Zac67 wrote:
If it's in a vital area, it'll cause a crash quickly, but if it's intermittant, the test software may have difficulties locating it.
When it's in a vital area, is when I call someone "lucky" ;-)
Zac67 wrote:
PS: Just checked on the Viper: the RAM is soldered to the board?? That'll make it very hard to swap for testing and also very hard to find a replacement...
I didn't check the Viper in too much detail, but if it's surface-mount RAM, the trick that I use, which has worked successfully with DIP DRAMs (like those in A500s) is to "piggy-back" a known working DRAM chip on top of the surface-mounted ones and see if that affects the tests. It can be a bit tricky since all the pins have to touch and stay that way until the end of the tests, but it sure beats desoldering ;-)