Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: CroCrew on August 23, 2006, 03:57:39 PM
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Ok, I need to be brought up to speed and you guys and gals seem to be the best of the best. I want to become an Amigan again. Back in the day I was a hard core Commodore/Amiga fan. I created several applications with my old systems. Now I want to come make a comeback.
From my understanding there are 4 main flavors in use today AmigaOS (m68k), AmigaOS4 (PPC), MorphOS (PPC) and AROS (i686). I know that I am going to go with a PPC or i686. So, I have some questions.
AmigaOS4: Are there any older systems that can load up this OS? Who knows of the cheapest places to buy a new or used system with AmigaOS4 installed?
MorphOS: Is there a version that can be installed on a Mac? If so What Macs can use MorphOS? Who knows of the cheapest places to buy a new or used system with MorphOS installed?
AROS: Is there more then flavor of AROS?
Thanks in advance for any reply.
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CroCrew wrote:
AmigaOS4: Are there any older systems that can load up this OS? Who knows of the cheapest places to buy a new or used system with AmigaOS4 installed?
AmigaONE system only... someone might be able to sell you one second hand. They don't make them anymore so you won't find a new one.
MorphOS: Is there a version that can be installed on a Mac? If so What Macs can use MorphOS? Who knows of the cheapest places to buy a new or used system with MorphOS installed?
The Pegasos and any PPC Amiga (not AmigaONE)... as far as I know it doesn't work on a Mac. Best ask at the MorphZone forums to findout the cheapest price of a Pegasos board... or pick up a PPC Amiga 1200 cheap from Ebay.
AROS: Is there more then flavor of AROS?
AROS comes in several flavours:
x86 (Runs on your standard PC)
x86-Hosted (It runs on top of Linux on a Standard PC)
PPC-Hosted (It runs on top of Linux on a PPC machine)
68k-AFA (It replaces AmigaOS code with AROS code to add advanced features to the OS).
The best for most users is the AROS-MAX distribution... check out www.aros-max.co.uk which is a live CD that should boot on most modern PCs though USB isn't supported yet.
There are also AROS-in-box/AROS-on-Windows packages which run a PC emulator on Windows that boot into AROS.
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The Amiga 500 has a lovely crunchy plastic flavour with a hard silicon/metal centre. I like to start with small bites at the front of the keyboard and work my way back from there. Anything you don't finish you can put back in the fridge and will keep fresh for years. I got a couple power supplies in my freezer I might fry up for supper tonight. Mmmm....
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Brilliant Mr_500!!
A couple of years ago me and a friend where making a mock cookery program. A couple of dishes were made including "burnt chips" and a "Roast A1200 covered in herbs". Use your imagination for the burnt chips :-P
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AmigaONE system only... someone might be able to sell you one second hand. They don't make them anymore so you won't find a new one.
Are you saying that the new Amiga OS4 only works on a system that is no longer being made? Then is OS4 dead?
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@CroCrew
OS4 itself is being worked on full time by a small team of developers, and part time by a larger group of developers. The OS4 team wouldn't continue if they didn't have plans to get OS4 out there on available hardware in the near future.
There are two publically announced projects to bring out PPC hardware for OS4 (ACK and Troika), which a lot of people are very skeptical of (understandibly), and the OS4 team have hinted at other deals in the pipeline.
Basically, a lot of people think OS4 is now totally dead, a lot of other people don't agree.
Welcome to the Amiga world ;-)
Personally, I'm a beta tester and I can see for myself that OS4 development hasn't stalled (there are still new updates nearly every day for betatesters). I also have a bit more faith than most that Adam (the guy behind some new OS4 hardware) will actually get some hardware out, but i'll leave that up to you to judge.
BTW: MorphOS is kind-of in the total opposite situation; hardware is out there and available, but the next major update to it (1.5) has been "due for release any time soon" for quite a while now, and a fair few MOS users have totally given up hope for it to ever appear. But there have been a lot of small updates released, as well as unofficial updates from end-users.
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BTW: MorphOS is kind-of in the total opposite situation; hardware is out there and available, but the next major update to it (1.5) has been "due for release any time soon" for quite a while now, and a fair few MOS users have totally given up hope for it to ever appear.
Personally, I'm a MorphOS developer, and I can see for myself that MorphOS development hasn't stalled (there are new updates nearly every day for internal alphatesters).
Just don't ask when 1.5 will be out. ;-)
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@Piru
"When its done"? ;-)
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well more accuratly.
peg/morphOS
morphOS and peg hardware are available and they are working on the next OS. v1.5
a1/os4
no hardware availabe, no OS has been released.
I guess OS4 has been running for sometime now...
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@pierre
OS4 pre releases were released with the AmigaOne, so "no OS has been released" is completely wrong, and various different people say various different things about MOS 1.5, but if Piru is confident it will be released, I guess it probably will be some day.
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I could be wrong but I though the OS that came the a1 while it was availabe was a dev version? There has been no offical os4 release to my knowlage. But it could happen "anytime" it has been anounced since at least 2002... please let me know if I missed this release as we have all been waiting!
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"a dev version"? Its a pre-release version of OS4, but its in no-way restricted. It has all the functionality you would expect of AmigaOS, is very useable and isn't just used by developers.
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yes a pre release is not the same as commercial release, it kind of like a beta? right?
So I will say it again, OS4 has not been official release. I would like to but os4 but I can't.
morphOS and hardware can be purchased here:
https://www.pegasosppc.com/special_odw.php?partner=morphos
currently they are working on there second commercial release morphOS 1.5.
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You didn't say that. You said there has been no OS release, which is patent rubbish. When my AmigaOne boots it is running an operating system. That operating system is OS4. This is true for ALL amigaone owners with OS4 pre-releases installed.
They are running the OS4 operating system which was released to them through the pre-release programme.
Edit: And you had an opportunity to buy an OS4 computer before the uA1's sold out, but clearly you didn't take that opportunity. There will be future opportunities to buy OS4 and hardware in the future, too (IMHO), so if you miss out again, it'll be your fault. Again.
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Wow, thanks for the great information. Keep on betatesting.
xeron wrote:
@CroCrew
OS4 itself is being worked on full time by a small team of developers, and part time by a larger group of developers. The OS4 team wouldn't continue if they didn't have plans to get OS4 out there on available hardware in the near future.
There are two publically announced projects to bring out PPC hardware for OS4 (ACK and Troika), which a lot of people are very skeptical of (understandibly), and the OS4 team have hinted at other deals in the pipeline.
Basically, a lot of people think OS4 is now totally dead, a lot of other people don't agree.
Welcome to the Amiga world ;-)
Personally, I'm a beta tester and I can see for myself that OS4 development hasn't stalled (there are still new updates nearly every day for betatesters). I also have a bit more faith than most that Adam (the guy behind some new OS4 hardware) will actually get some hardware out, but i'll leave that up to you to judge.
BTW: MorphOS is kind-of in the total opposite situation; hardware is out there and available, but the next major update to it (1.5) has been "due for release any time soon" for quite a while now, and a fair few MOS users have totally given up hope for it to ever appear. But there have been a lot of small updates released, as well as unofficial updates from end-users.
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Is the system in the link below any good? How long will it last before you think an upgrade will be needed?
pierre wrote:
yes a pre release is not the same as commercial release, it kind of like a beta? right?
So I will say it again, OS4 has not been official release. I would like to but os4 but I can't.
morphOS and hardware can be purchased here:
https://www.pegasosppc.com/special_odw.php?partner=morphos
currently they are working on there second commercial release morphOS 1.5.
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o.k. I was wrong... tried to correct myself. I don't think it's my fault they could not produce enough units...(or have a solid plan IMO) I will keep my ears open and if and when there are new a1 and and OFFICIAL os4 release I will consider it, but I think I'm going for the peg anyway, I like the idea of running macOS and lunix as well. What I'm even more interested in is x686 amigas, PPC are already old. I don't want to be negative about os4, I just wanted to set the record strait for people just now getting back into this, it very confusing and I think you made it sound like the morphOS ppl had adandoned ship when infact they have released both OS and hardware (peg1 and 2) and are working on the second version of the os. In contrast the os4 team has not had an official release and currently don't have hardware. I'm not going to make a judgment about that (for you) it's just where things stand. I don't have all the info and when I am wrong I will gladly admit it. More importantly I am extreamly interested in learning more about most things amiga!
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It was mentioned in an IRC interview log with one of the AOS4 developers that they have a fully commercial and ready release of OS4, but no hardware at the time.
They have a list of things they're still working on, which would have wound up in a boing bag or service pack down the road, but all these fixes will instead wind up in the final release since they have the time.
I believe it's as ready as any other OS though. They've got a rather unique predicament.
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Guys, lets not bicker please. You both like similar products and that’s cool. No need to bicker. Thank you both for your help so far.
Thanks again and please if there is more information out there post it here for us to read.
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AmigaOS4: Are there any older systems that can load up this OS? Who knows of the cheapest places to buy a new or used system with AmigaOS4 installed?
A classic a1200 with a ppc accelrator can run OS4. The only problem is that only a few selected beta testers have access to OS4 for the classic. Situation is not much better when it comes to new systems running OS4 either as the few AmigaONEs produced has been out of stock for ages now, so the only way is to buy second hand.
There have been announcements of new OS4 hardware being worked on, but still none released.
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??? "I'm even more interested in is x686 amigas" ???
What news have you on this?
Thanks.
pierre wrote:
o.k. I was wrong... tried to correct myself. I don't think it's my fault they could not produce enough units...(or have a solid plan IMO) I will keep my ears open and if and when there are new a1 and and OFFICIAL os4 release I will consider it, but I think I'm going for the peg anyway, I like the idea of running macOS and lunix as well. What I'm even more interested in is x686 amigas, PPC are already old. I don't want to be negative about os4, I just wanted to set the record strait for people just now getting back into this, it very confusing and I think you made it sound like the morphOS ppl had adandoned ship when infact they have released both OS and hardware (peg1 and 2) and are working on the second version of the os. In contrast the os4 team has not had an official release and currently don't have hardware. I'm not going to make a judgment about that (for you) it's just where things stand. I don't have all the info and when I am wrong I will gladly admit it. More importantly I am extreamly interested in learning more about most things amiga!
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??? "I'm even more interested in is x686 amigas" ???
I guess you mean x86/i686.. But the only option there is Aros and that runs already today with limited compitability and software. OS4 will only be for ppc in the closest future.
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I think it is a good system! I don't own one myself but am saving to get one. The one I saw and palyed with was VERY cool and quick. I don't think you will NEED and upgrade anytime soon. IMO until somebody comes out with a x686 type system this will be the thing to have. Ifcourse if new a1 boards are produced anytime soon you may perfer that, but that would be your call.
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no news per say thomas is right.
Aros is the only system availabe right now. There is also amigathon but that is no longer sold.
My point is that both peg and a1/os4 are built around ppc tech, I feel that that is old tech and we need to get amigas running and intel/AMD chips just like apple did...I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon, BTW but it the future...
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Ahh, good points!
pierre wrote:
no news per say thomas is right.
Aros is the only system availabe right now. There is also amigathon but that is no longer sold.
My point is that both peg and a1/os4 are built around ppc tech, I feel that that is old tech and we need to get amigas running and intel/AMD chips just like apple did...I don't think this is going to happen anytime soon, BTW but it the future...
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@pierre
Why all the negativity about the Power architecture? It's available to developers (Mac, Pegasos etc), it's made by a couple of different manufacturers (Freescale, IBM) and whilst the currently available versions aren't quite as capable as the very latest Intel Core 2 Duo / Xeon series there are updates in the pipeline.
Besides which it's still a good clean and solid architecture to develop for which is why it's gone into all 3 of the next generation consoles.
It'd be nice if they'd just do something with OS4.0 that'd let us install it on old Mac's etc, but i'm happy to wait for the proposed boards from Ack Controls.
@CroCrew
Welcome back, i guess from reading the above you can see that things appear quite fractured at the moment. I'm personally considering the Pegasos2 system/board with MorphOS however whilst i save up i'm also hoping that Ack Controls will release the PowerVixxen upgrade for the A1200s.
In the end guess i end up up saving more and buying both though ;)
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@AJCopeland
no negativity here, it just not the future is all.
I don't think "custom" motherboards are a good idea if we want to survive, they are WAY too expensive to manufacture. Even apple is realizing this. It makes sense to have your OS run on what ever hardware is common. (PPC is not common. or modern) I think we should LEARN from the past, custom hardware was a burden not a benefit. You should be able to go buy what ever hardware you want/like and then install whatever OS you want/like, thats freedome to choose. Continuing to develop for the PPC only distances the amiga from modern computing in a way that will make it very difficult for larger group of people to seriously use the technology. Infact all this os4/morphOS stuff would have been a big deal 5/6/7 years ago, in 2006 it's well.. I don't know what to say...a bit late?
I just want to add that I don't feel fractures at all.. I can't get an a1 (nothing to worry about there) if I had more $$$ i could get a peg (very cool) in the mean time I have some realy cool "classic" hardware that I have fun playing with. I am however concerned for any serious FUTURE amiga projects, as I don't think they are heading in a direction that makes sense.
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AJCopland wrote:
...however whilst i save up i'm also hoping that Ack Controls will release the PowerVixxen upgrade for the A1200s.
What is a PowerVixxen upgrade for the A1200s? :-?
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Adam of ACK controls has stated that he is working on at least two new boards with the aim of running OS4.
The first of which is the PowerVixxen LT. This is an accelerator for towerised Amiga 1200 computers. It attaches to the trapdoor slot, and provides a PPC processor, mobility radeon graphics, and maybe some other goodies like USB and ethernet. This board has a lower end PPC CPU soldered on and will allow OS4 to run, while giving programs access to the original chipset for maximum compatibility.
The second board is the PowerVixxen TL, which is a standalone motherboard like the A1. It is said that it will have a CPU socket into which you can put an AmigaOne compatible CPU card (which Adam is also producing). This board is supposed to have a lot of expandability, and not so many features built into the board. I don't know too much of the specifics for this board, but apparently it has a faster memory bus and things which will make it run rings around existing AmigaOne boards.
Whether they actually are going to arrive or not is a subject of extremely heated debate... personally I don't know, but I'm optimistic. Possibly more optimistic than I should be, but then I reeeeally like OS4 and i'm hoping SOME sort of solution to the hardware problem happens.
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I saw the mention of the Vixen for $299 which would be probably the best to be expected for a 1200 upgrade. I would prefer a socket so as to allow a faster chip later.
Again if someone would /could release Amiga OS for the IMac G3/4/5 we Amigans would gladly pay $99 for that.
Propietary hardware locks in your customers but also limits your market.
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recidivist wrote:
I saw the mention of the Vixen for $299 which would be probably the best to be expected for a 1200 upgrade.
I (and I bet, a lot of people) would pay gladly this amount of money to have a board that can go in the trapdoor and turn a 1200 into a modern machine.
:-)
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Great information again!
xeron wrote:
Adam of ACK controls has stated that he is working on at least two new boards with the aim of running OS4.
The first of which is the PowerVixxen LT. This is an accelerator for towerised Amiga 1200 computers. It attaches to the trapdoor slot, and provides a PPC processor, mobility radeon graphics, and maybe some other goodies like USB and ethernet. This board has a lower end PPC CPU soldered on and will allow OS4 to run, while giving programs access to the original chipset for maximum compatibility.
The second board is the PowerVixxen TL, which is a standalone motherboard like the A1. It is said that it will have a CPU socket into which you can put an AmigaOne compatible CPU card (which Adam is also producing). This board is supposed to have a lot of expandability, and not so many features built into the board. I don't know too much of the specifics for this board, but apparently it has a faster memory bus and things which will make it run rings around existing AmigaOne boards.
Whether they actually are going to arrive or not is a subject of extremely heated debate... personally I don't know, but I'm optimistic. Possibly more optimistic than I should be, but then I reeeeally like OS4 and i'm hoping SOME sort of solution to the hardware problem happens.
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For more info on your x86 amiga options look here.. x86 Amiga - Amithlon / AROS (http://x86amiga.awardspace.com/)
Whilst amithlon can't be bought or downloaded, (it can be obtained by other means) provides better compatibility then aros and is continually being updated to work with newer hardware!
AROS is free and it's open source!!! anyone can contribute!
visit http://www.aros.org/ for more info!
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If it can't be downloaded or bought then who is working on Amithlon? How do you get the OS or updates?
mihcael wrote:
For more info on your x86 amiga options look here.. x86 Amiga - Amithlon / AROS (http://x86amiga.awardspace.com/)
Whilst amithlon can't be bought or downloaded, (it can be obtained by other means) provides better compatibility then aros and is continually being updated to work with newer hardware!
AROS is free and it's open source!!! anyone can contribute!
visit http://www.aros.org/ for more info!
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@CroCrew
The Amithlon story is a pretty sad one. I might have some facts wrong, because I was never particularily interested in Amithlon, but basically I think it happened like this:
Bernd Meyer started creating an emulator for AmigaOS3.x that ran on top of a minimal linux kernel, which to the end-user would appear like you were running 68K AmigaOS directly on an x86 to all intents and purposes. The system allowed you to run both 68k and x86 native code, and has x86 native drivers for some gfx and sound cards.
As I understand it, he teamed up with Harald Frank who contributed some code to the project. It was sold commercially by Haage & Partner. At this point Bernd was under the impression that H&P had licensed AmigaOS from Amiga, Inc. and everything was hunky dorey.
It turned out that Amiga, Inc. didn't agree and tried to force H&P to stop selling the product. H&P didn't agree, and Harald also thought everything was legit. Bernd didn't want to sell an unlicensed product and it caused a big falling out and the product eventually was cancelled.
There have been continued updates from other people, but mostly the Amithlon project is seen to be dead by most people in Amigaland.
The story is no doubt more complex than this, and I'd suggest a google search for amithlon.
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If you bought it when it got released or bought second hand...
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CroCrew wrote:
If it can't be downloaded or bought then who is working on Amithlon? How do you get the OS or updates?
who's working on it... More info!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/amithlonopen/
updates and stuff...
http://www.hd-zone.com/amithlon/amithlon.htm#Kernels
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AJCopland wrote:
@pierre
Why all the negativity about the Power architecture? It's available to developers (Mac, Pegasos etc), it's made by a couple of different manufacturers (Freescale, IBM) and whilst the currently available versions aren't quite as capable as the very latest Intel Core 2 Duo / Xeon series there are updates in the pipeline.
Besides which it's still a good clean and solid architecture to develop for which is why it's gone into all 3 of the next generation consoles.
The Power architecture has only been used in the next gen consoles because IBM have been contracted to make the CPUs for them. IBM don't have to worry about patent issues with the Power since they own it. If they owned a MIPS licence the CPU's would have been built around that. Unless someone is prepared to pump the sort of money into the PPC as AMD and Intel pump into their chips it's going to remain far behind the tech curve.
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That's a rather simplistic view of it.
IBM wouldn't have been picked to make the chips unless the companies picking them knew that they'd get the Power architecture. They also wouldn't have simply had the Power one foisted upon them without a say in the matter.
All three of them chose to use IBM because of the Power architecture. MIPS is a fairly nice architecture, I've coded for the version of MIPS32 used in the PSP and PS2.
Just occurred to me i should point out that im not talking out of my bum, i work for a games company on PSP, PS2, PS3, XBOX, XBOX360, Wii and PC. I've written everything from assembler on the PSP to C++ OOP on the PC with a wide and crazy ark through software development inbetween :-D
Also the Power architecture is being actively developed to the tune of billions of dollars a year by IBM. Do you ever see them switching to licencing an architecture from Intel/AMD? :crazy:
The are versions of Power used everywhere in embedded stuff, and when it comes to the higher end there's still stuff thats implemented in the Power5 which hasn't filtered down into the lower end yet.
Ah bollocks to it, CPU architecture as a reason to love or loathe a platform is a religious argument. Sorry if i've ranted a bit.
Andy
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Actually IBM makes big iron machines using AMD processors as well as Power/PPC.
I have also programmed in MIPS assembly and it definitely is much better than Intel for intuitivity. Power/PPC a little less so but still good. I hope the x86 archetecture sits and rots. x86_64 (AMD64) is better but still not as good as the others.
It's a shame that SGI dropped MIPS (http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=15741) in favor of Itanium but at least there's still game systems for MIPS as well.