Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: BerndW on July 28, 2006, 10:53:12 AM
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I was "offline" for a few years, and just visited www.amiga.com (http://www.amiga.com). Is this the official site? Because when I go to the shop (http://www.amiga.com/shop/) and try to buy something (add something to cart, then click Checkout) it gives a Security Alert which says that the certificate expired in 2005. Does this mean that they stopped selling in 2005, and are now... dead? Sure nobody buys from such a company today, if they have no SSL and the browser does not even open the page. So what happened?
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I think they are still selling, either through the shop or their "partners", although I am not sure about the quantities...
It's just a bit strange that the company registration is listed as "inactive" (http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?name=AMIGA%2c+INC.&ubi=601983734) and the license has expired 09/30/2004.
"AMIGA, INC.
UBI Number: 601 983 734
Category: Regular Corporation
Profit/Nonprofit: Profit
Active/Inactive: Inactive
State of Incorporation: WA
Date of Incorporation: 09/30/1999
License Expiration Date: 09/30/2004"
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Amiga Inc. Alive ?? haha...I cant even access their page, but it worked some days ago...
I read the forum and they still havent managed to send out all the t-shirts, how lame is that?
I dont see any future for the Amiga Inc. bunch, sad :(
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Amiga Inc. Alive ?? haha...I cant even access their page, but it worked some days ago...
Work's now! Amiga Inc are still much very alive but just not very active. What there doing is anyones guess!
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Not to sound like a grouchy butt, but WHY BOTHER??? Why mourn for the death of your enemies? It's obvious that Amiga INC in it's present form does nothing for any of you, has nothing for any of you, nor even really cares about you. Just to even care about thing is wasting time you could be worrying about stuff that really matters. Hell, I myself am not even worrying about the mythical consumer Amiga OS 4, for the time being because I have way too much stuff in the here and now to deal with.
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"Amiga Inc are still much very alive but just not very active."
Not very active, hehe, using several years to send out some t-shirts surely is not being much alive or active IMHO...
Why bother ? Because they own the Amiga :((
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nasty wrote:
Work's now! Amiga Inc are still much very alive but just not very active. What there doing is anyones guess!
Well, they have some exciting new 'sliding block picture puzzle' games coming out soon, according to the website, which will no doubt push back the boundaries of digital entertainment as we know it.
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Amiga, Inc. is the world’s premier provider of multimedia enabling technologies. For almost two decades its award-winning software has been a mainstay for motion picture studios, multimedia creators, and digital entertainment enthusiasts around the world. Today Amiga builds on this legacy leading the way in multimedia development by providing developers with hardware-independent technologies for writing and porting applications to new platforms and interactive devices.
I still get a chuckle when I read this. Of course, Ray does live in his own little world.
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Having also been out of the loop for many years (since 1995) and having recently started to get back into the classic Amiga groove, I find that I can't really give a dime about "Amiga, Inc". It's a company that happens to have the copyright to the name (and perhaps some other parts of what made up the Amiga, someone will no doubt correct me on this point). IMO it has *nothing* to do with the classic Amiga and its spirit, so I generally ignore anything that has to do with them. You can compare it with the current Commodore company which also has nothing to do with the Commodore from the ol' days. They just happened to stumble across the name and reinstated it in the hopes of cashing in on its retro appeal and slapping the brand on anything from DVD-/+Rs, USB sticks, ugly MP3 players, you name it.
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BerndW wrote:
Is Amiga (the company) dead?
no. it's in a state of "suspended animation".
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nasty wrote:
Amiga Inc. Alive ?? haha...I cant even access their page, but it worked some days ago...
Work's now! Amiga Inc are still much very alive but just not very active. What there doing is anyones guess!
ROTFL
Alive? You call that alive? They have been dead for quite sometime now, they may be barely breathing, latching on to their mobile stuff. As far as desktop goes they could care less - as far as Legacy and PPC Amiga support they surely don't care. To make matters even worse they won't even license to external investors either. L A M E
magnetic
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I think they are still selling, either through the shop
Yes, that's what I meant, the shop could not possibly have been working since last year, because of this expired HTTPS (https://www.amiga.com/shop/?CO=1) certificate:
Security Alert
The security certificate has expired or is not yet valid.
Valid from:
Thursday, December 09, 2004 18:08:06
Valid to:
Friday, December 09, 2005 18:08:06
Subject:
E = webmaster@amiga.com
CN = www.amiga.com
OU = Operations
O = Amiga Inc
L = Redmond
S = Washington
C = US
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Someone with a couple of $ should buy them out and put them out of their misery. Seriously if I had the money I'd buy Amiga Inc and kill it once and for all: release the OS (the stuff not owned by Hyperion) and hardware specs under the GPL and just let enthusiasts make clones on their own like what happened to Atari STs and Sinclair QLs.
As it is there's no point in anyone wasting their time with AInc, it'll only end in tears (for you).
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They are dead. Look, one of them died while "developing" OS4!
(http://www.irongeek.com/images/zombieadc.JPG)
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moto
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Are you sure that the A.inc team aren't really leeches disguised as humans? That photo would confirm so.
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those people NEVER represented the AMIGA community , what the hell was that amiga SDK anyway, waist of money, They where badly managed and are part of the reason the amiga never when anywhere! I think I hate them! BAD BAD BAD company.. I realy wish they would just go away and leave the amiga to the open source community! STUPID! I wish all the copyright law suits and petty in fighting would go away so we can focus on making cool amiaga stuff.. :madashell:
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Personaly Amiga inc has singal handedly Killed all hope for any sort of revival of the Amiga they refuse to alow any development using any of the "True" amiga OS and hardware. You wont see any forward motion with an Amiga as we know it until the Amiga Inc. people all get old and pass away and finaly let the patents go. :roll:
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humppa wrote:
It's just a bit strange that the company registration is listed as "inactive" (http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search_detail.aspx?name=AMIGA%2c+INC.&ubi=601983734) and the license has expired 09/30/2004.
That's cos they're now a registered corporation in Delaware after the whole ITEC/KMOS 'hide the IP from our creditors' game.
AFAIK, 'they' are still in Washington, and use Garry Hare's home as a mail drop..yeah, a real professional outfit, but do we really expect anything else from them.
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@cpfuture
Yeah, Starblazers avatars! :-)
@motorollin
A very funny and accurate picture of how I veiw the state of Amiga Inc. So all that's left is the 3rd person shooter game shotgun blast to end the game.
(No shooting real people though!)
Plaz
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krize wrote:
"Amiga Inc are still much very alive but just not very active."
Not very active, hehe, using several years to send out some t-shirts surely is not being much alive or active IMHO...
Why bother ? Because they own the Amiga :((
Not completly true.Amiga inc only has the right to use (and sublicense) the amiga logo and technologies but gateway still own it.Note that in this context Ainc only has a license to the PPC processor because if AOS is ported to x86 the the contract that gateway have with Microsoft will be violated because gateway would have another OS running in X86 (is their os even it is licensed to others)
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What a bad deal IMHO ...
But it seems to me that they refuse to make any money! They could have sold alot more now if they just started getting acts together! Actually sell something...(if its not too late...)
What about the 68k series? gateway still owns it ?
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Note that in this context Ainc only has a license to the PPC processor because if AOS is ported to x86 the the contract that gateway have with Microsoft will be violated
Anyone have details on such a contract? I know MS has been accused of bullying desktop vendors about selling systems with OS's other than MS, like linux. But is there and actual contract prohibiting gateway from developing and selling a competitive OS on x86?
Plax
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krize wrote:
What a bad deal IMHO ...
But it seems to me that they refuse to make any money! They could have sold alot more now if they just started getting acts together! Actually sell something...(if its not too late...)
What about the 68k series? gateway still owns it ?
Gateway owns it and Ainc has a license but there is no sense in develop for 68k
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Maybe Amiga Inc. is doing some Missing Trader VAT Fraud (also known as carousel fraud)? It is rife here in the UK and Europe. It was on TV the other night, one company was able to make a couple of hundred million pounds in only a month from buying and selling non existant hardware and then moved to Switzerland where there is no extradition treaty for VAT fraud.
Couple of hundred million quid and we'd soon have Amiga back at full strength.
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That's cos they're now a registered corporation in Delaware after the whole
Me totally confused now... This company is definitely not from Delaware...
whois amiga.com:
Amiga, Inc.
P.O. Box 887
Ravensdale, Washington 98051
United States
If there is a company in Delaware, it seems to be unrelated to this www.amiga.com domain. What does the Delaware company do? Do they have a web site?
Maybe Amiga Inc. is doing some Missing Trader VAT Fraud
I heard that a lot of companies that sell online don't pay VAT. Until they get caught...
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I heard that a lot of companies that sell online don't pay VAT. Until they get caught...
No VAT in the USA. If they send something internationally, the recipient is responsible for any of that.
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Speaking of Amigas and death, why wasn't Jay Miner cryogenically preserved? His cryonics chamber could have had jayminer.lha on the front...
:laughing:
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Although I bought several real Amigas since Commodore Amiga went belly up in 1994 (funny that that was the year Amiga followed Commodore on my footie-team's shirts, one of which I occasionally fondle), IMO Amiga is hibernating/aestivating eternally and I recommend purchasing/enjoying the excellent latest Cloanto Amiga Forever 2006 CD/2 DVD package
http://www.amigaforever.com/
and looking at/bookmarking into 'Favourites'
Piracy link removed : watch the posting guidelines there guys
PCs are so cheap/good now that I am happy to use them whilst I gaze fondly at my remaining boxed CD32 with Amiga 3000 keyboard, & my Amiga 500 with Datel Action Replay 111/Zipstick etc.
http://www.zombienexus.com/forums/cms_view_article.php?aid=28&page=1
of which I have 2 is ideal for playing the great old Amiga Bitmaps games and for playing the great lost Fastram Amiga game 'Dozer'(which IMO should be in MS OS free supplied games, or repackaged by Hanna-Barbara owners as 'Fred Flinstone And Dino'.
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I actually had hoped that Gateway would do something good when they obtained the rights. :-/ But they really had no real interest in meeting the needs of the Amiga Community either IMO.
If only the community could get the rights -- I have no problem with someone making fair profit from sales of licenses of the OS and other software... but any company should work (a lot harder than A.Inc seems to be) to meet the needs of the community of folks (us) who have kept the platform viable since Commodore went under. I too, feel that the rights should fall to folks who want to work with the existing community. Again, IMO, A.Inc really only cares that the AmigaOS was small and efficient and therefore could be used in small embedded devices... that seems to be their main focus, not making desktop OS's.
I suppose it is cool that my cell phone could one day play the old Sierra Games and such, but that is not the direction they seem to want to go either. Repurposing AmigaOS for embedded devices is really kind of cool, but in the market right now, it competes with Linux and that embedded Windows OS (used to be called WindowsCE, think now it is called "PocketPC" IIRC). Anyways, it is just "mini me" of Windows. Since I like Linux, I find that to be the way to go with the embedded market. Palm is still hanging in there as well... so I feel that it is bad form to try to repurpose AmigaOS in this way, although I understand (and admire) the reasons for doing this based on how few resources AmigaOS needs to get things done!
Don't get me wrong, I totally would like to see a company get behind the platform and revitalize us and would like to see OS 4 become more than just vapourware as well.
Anyhow, I think at this point, we are going to have two camps (like I said before -- this is your current Macintosh situation as well -- although the difference obviously is that Apple did not go under and be out of the industry for 20 years with so much catch up to "modernize" their OS). The first camp is going to be "Classic (Retro) Amiga" and that camp is going to be unsupported by and large except by each other -- no real change here for us! The second camp would be the new/modern Amiga OS (4+) and would be hopefully making decisions to be a REAL alternative to Windows or even Macintosh. IMO, this "move" that Apple made from OS 9 to OS X was the best thing they ever done! Plus, they made a whole vertical market for themselves with the iPod and of course the music side of the business really has paid off in spades.
The comparison I am trying to make, is I know people that refuse to give up OS 9 (some of them even refuse to give up MacOS 7 or 8)! Those folks are limited to the software they can use now because it is not officially supported. Heck I know of folks that are using Apple II series machines today and are in our boat!
My point here is simply, the Amiga Community is dedicated to the "retro" side of the AmigaOS. If we got a modern OS that we could use modern applications on (hopefully not from Microsoft), then a lot of us would still have our "retro" machines for the games,etc.. and if it became viable enough -- the new OS for our day to day work.
I guess I don't understand why A. Inc doesn't do what Apple did to speed up the process of development. If we agree (and I am not saying everyone here will) that to move forward we need a modern OS for the Amiga on modern hardware. If that is the baseline: A.Inc or subsequent owners of the rights need to build the OS. Apple did this by taking FreeBSD (a very solid and stable UNIX) and tweaking it to their liking and tweaking the Kernel... it is still pretty much BSD under the hood! Then they put their own GUI from the Graphics Engine on Up (Aqua) on top of it and presto! OS X! I had bugs sure, but it was only a year from announcement. Obviously, no one except Steve and Co there in Cupertino, CA know how long it took to do all the tweaking to the BSD Subsystem nor how long to develop the GUI front end either. But they saw that the MacOS was just getting outdated and knew that survival of the company meant modernizing.
I think we are there in the Amiga Platform as well. Aside from obvious copyright issues, there is no reason development on a modern Amiga OS could not begin exactly the same way. Build your functionality on top of a known solid system. IMO, that would not be Linux. BSD is an excellent choice because it is "rock solid".
Anyhow, all that has been written above is fully the opinion of myself and I would like to see what others think.
I use Macintosh because I hate Microsoft and yet as much as I like Open Office, no native port yet -- they are working on that of course though ;-) There are times I miss the old OS 9 Mac experience though, but most of the time, I am reminded why OS X is so much better when it does its little bomb thing!!!!
Moral of the story: When you choose what platform you will compute on, you must choose what "headaches" you wish to deal with. IMO -- the ones Windows makes are much larger than any *NIX system! Also, (a sub moral if you will) -- if the computer you are using does what you need it to do, why change to a different platform?
Sorry for such a long post, I am of course going to be studying Engineering at College starting next month -- Imagine that, A 35 (soon to be 36) year old computer veteran with over 20 years experience in the industry going back to school to finally get his BS in Computer and Electronics Engineering! This does tend to make me long winded because I also program :-)
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I think we are there in the Amiga Platform as well. Aside from obvious copyright issues, there is no reason development on a modern Amiga OS could not begin exactly the same way. Build your functionality on top of a known solid system. IMO, that would not be Linux. BSD is an excellent choice because it is "rock solid".
That was exactly one of the ideas of the gateway era, get a kernel of other OS an put on top of it the Amiga APIs and ideas.First they thinked in QNX and was abandoned then they thinked in linux that also was abandoned.It´s sarcastic that was Amiga (well gateway) the fist who think on it, before even apple, and Apple later would follow this way with his OSX. this was back in the days the response of the community about the use of a linux kernel for AmigaOS (http://de4.aminet.net/pix/art/NoLinuxKernel.jpg)
Later gateway think in Amiga as only a sort of a web based applets, also abandoned finally gateway decided do nothing with Amiga then appeared Amino that bought the rights to use the Amiga name and technologies (only has a lisence not are the owners) and born Amiga inc.
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@charliestu
Do not post links or requests for warez.
Warez in our definition is illegal software up to and including "abandonware". The exception is if the person is KNOWN to have the legal right to distribute said software. This is not debatable.
From Posting Guidelines (http://www.amiga.org/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=6)
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No VAT in the USA. If they send something internationally, the recipient is responsible for any of that.
That was true before 1. July 2003. But times change, as it was explained in this forum. Today even US companies have to collect VAT on online sales like downloadable games, if the customer is in the European Union:
- http://www.kagi.com/solutions/taxvat.html (http://www.kagi.com/solutions/taxvat.html)
- http://www.internetnews.com/ec-news/article.php/2214671 (http://www.internetnews.com/ec-news/article.php/2214671)
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/06/13/july_1_is_vat_day/ (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/06/13/july_1_is_vat_day/)
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in their own sick and twisted way .. they ar still alive :-)
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The fact that they haven't even responded to this thread is a pretty clear indication of how much contempt Amiga Inc has for this community.
It's rather pathetic, but the only signs of life as of late has been Vince Pfeiffer getting Amiga.org's Cafepress store shut down last week without warning for "trademark violations". This in direct violation of their own licensing agreement which called for 30% of the sales price which I was willing to add into the price if you guys wanted to pay for it. This, even in violation of my own written permission from Gateway's Amiga (which supercedes their own rights) to use said logo.
They (the zombies) know Cafepress would simply shut down Microsoft's own store if anyone complains, even if they have no evidence. In Cafepress' eyes the burden of proof is on the store owner to take the complainer to court to settle for the rights.
Luckily, since the Cafepress store actually cost us money to keep open, it's not worth fighting for, but it's still fairly pathetic that the only thing Amiga Inc has produced in 6 years is legal bullying and paperwork.. And they don't even OWN anything, Gateway does. Not bad for the 5 million they threw away on it eh?
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In my opinion, the only chance that anything Amiga-related will return in a viable and appreciable form is through AROS. It may take ten years from now, maybe more, but it may happen. I hope the AROS developers don't lose interest.
It took a fair while for the browser war to re-ignite, and that's just for a web browser.
In my view, Commodore was the cause of the Amiga's death, by not pushing it as a business tool as well as a games machine. The hardware (even if PPC is factored in) is too many generations behind the competition to catch up now. Anything that comes from the Amiga's direction will be based what somebody liked about it, and that may appeal to some group of people who want to use it. I don't think it is important that whatever is created actually appeals to anyone formerly of the Amiga community.
Good luck AROS, or Hyperion. Hopefully at least one of you will manage to provide something that a decent-size audience will appreciate.
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BerndW wrote:
That's cos they're now a registered corporation in Delaware after the whole
Me totally confused now... This company is definitely not from Delaware...
They don't have to be based in Delaware, they just need an agent there to register them, file financial reports etc. It's just cos Delaware is more 'corporation friendly'..ie it saves Amiga Inc money.
KMOS, the 'company' set up by Hare was a registered Delaware corporation.
They 'bought' Amiga Inc, then changed their name from KMOS to Amiga Inc in 2003.
Shortly after, Garry Hare left the all new Amiga Inc ( 20% less fat,40% more meaningless buzzwords) and suprise suprise,Bill McEwen reappeared in charge.
And if McEwen is reading this thread... Don't worry Bill, your job is almost done, only a thousand or so Amigans left to alienate and scare away to other platforms. Not a bad job considering there were 15,000 of us that bought OS3.5 :madashell:
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irishmike wrote:
...
I use Macintosh because I hate Microsoft ...
I use Amiga because I do NOT like Makintosh, or even worse Ataree.
edit by admin : Watch the language please.
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It's rather pathetic, but the only signs of life as of late has been Vince Pfeiffer getting Amiga.org's Cafepress store shut down last week without warning for "trademark violations". This in direct violation of their own licensing agreement which called for 30% of the sales price which I was willing to add into the price if you guys wanted to pay for it. This, even in violation of my own written permission from Gateway's Amiga (which supercedes their own rights) to use said logo.
Who is Vince/what is his job at Amiga? Was your agreement with the Washington company, or the Delaware one?
Why did you (have to) enter into an agreement in the first place? There are no registered trademarks for those signs you use on your t-shirts, AFAIK.
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suprise suprise,Bill McEwen reappeared in charge.
What is Bill's real (daytime) job nowadays? He was a truck driver (http://tech2.nytimes.com/mem/technology/techreview.html?res=9D04EEDD1131F931A15755C0A9669C8B63) who had never seen an Amiga before being hired by Gateway, right?
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I don't know what Vince Pfeiffer does, other than going around doing random harm to the Amiga community, pretty much like everyone still at Amiga Inc has done.
There are no registered trademarks for those signs you use on your t-shirts, AFAIK.
Again, Cafepress doesn't care. You could probably write them claiming you're from Amiga and they'd neither care, nor check the facts before yanking your product. That's not their job. They just accept whatever anyone tells them and then make the seller prove that the complaintant is wrong.
Wayne
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At this point in the Amiga's long and drawn out story should we be worrying!
We should be beyond the point of caring. Sure we all had hopes that KMOS would bring back the Amiga in a big big way but alas it was never to be. At least - that is how it looks.
KMOS bought Amiga for the name, the brand, the ability to market it again. Who knows what the future holds. Atari was Commodores nemesis way back and yet now they produce only software - as do Sega (for now). Lets not speculate as to what may be. Just be happy with what we have.
It's the community that makes Amiga these days. Not the company holding the rights to the name.
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Hello the world,
I'm a French former Amiga Developer (1992-1994).
The icon at the left is the arabics signature for Bourguiba Institute for foreign language "localized" in Tunis/ia. Well, well ...
Now, I use PC/XP at my work.
I see nothing spectaculer with Windows except a lot of professional & visual tools integrated in the GUI for managing the network and user account.
For Amiga, I'm waiting for foreign languages support like arabics and chineese support because all the people who are attending for such an Amiga revolution are now in this countries.
Sincerely, yours.
Gilles DRIDI
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Someone with a couple of $ should buy them out and put them out of their misery
A couple of $? Are you mad? I know prices for Amiga stuff on eBay are expensive, but they're not worth more than 50p at the most, surely. :-)
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IF Bill Gates wanted to be sure of keeping yet another would-be competitor OS down, a brilliant strategy would be for another company ,which just happens to be contractually prohibited from releasing a non-Microsoft OS,to acquire the competing OS.
Thus the other OS is out of the market,yet Microsoft can claim it was not their doing.
The business of business is a lot dirtier than most people realize. Dallas,the TV show, gave a fairly realistic peek at the kinds of people who often rise to the top. Cream and scum both float.
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recidivist wrote:
IF Bill Gates wanted to be sure of keeping yet another would-be competitor OS down,
They don't need to... with a 95% markest share and a software legacy that goes back over 10 years... the last thing you need to worry about is another OS... unless the other os is MacOS X :-D
a brilliant strategy would be for another company ,which just happens to be contractually prohibited from releasing a non-Microsoft OS,to acquire the competing OS.
Thus the other OS is out of the market,yet Microsoft can claim it was not their doing.
Does this actually make sense to you?
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What about the German office where Petro worked? Who works there now?
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Someone with a couple of $ should buy them out and put them out of their misery
Anyone has idea how much $ would it be to buy all Amiga IP/Patents and related stuff from Gateway, and how much to get the name licence and amiga.com from Amino ?
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The cost would be far more then what's it's currently worth, and that isn't much. Problem is they (Gateway and Amiga Inc) would want dot.com pricing in a post dot.com bust world.
Dammy
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@ magnetic
ROTFL
Alive? You call that alive? They have been dead for quite sometime now, they may be barely breathing, latching on to their mobile stuff. As far as desktop goes they could care less - as far as Legacy and PPC Amiga support they surely don't care. To make matters even worse they won't even license to external investors either. L A M E
LOL, I hope you aint a paramedic? "You call that alive? They have been dead for quite sometime now, they may be barely breathing" If the company was dead then people wouldnt be getting hassled from these idiots over pointless matters!
@ thread
If you bought out Amiga Inc what would you actually own? except from a large debt?
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Anyone has idea how much $ would it be to buy all Amiga IP/Patents and related stuff from Gateway, and how much to get the name licence and amiga.com from Amino ?
Not sure, probably close to 1/4 million for the name.
It's weird to talk about these things, with a vague sense of hope. The fact is, nothing will come of this. No-one knows how to contact Amiga, and they don't want to be contacted. I really don't see any way out of this situation. Will Amiga ever licence another PPC board for AOS4? Who knows? I put my money on AROS, at least no-one like Amiga Inc can ever take it away.
Otherwise your just betting on a horse, which may look like its running fast but for how long before it stops?
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What about the German office where Petro worked? Who works there now?
Wasnt it closed down years ago.
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itix wrote:
What about the German office where Petro worked? Who works there now?
Wasnt it closed down years ago.
In fact, it was closed in 11/2000.
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/13214
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Magic-Merl wrote:
Sure we all had hopes that KMOS would bring back the Amiga in a big big way but alas it was never to be. At least - that is how it looks.
KMOS bought Amiga for the name, the brand, the ability to market it again.
You're assuming that KMOS ever really existed, and wasn't just a ploy to avoid a legal settlement with Genesi.
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Gateway (And all huge companies like Dell, HP, Sony etc) purchases patents all over the place.
It has NOTHING to do with actually caring about the technology they're purchasing and everything to do with covering their butts legally.
If you come up with some fantastic new video/audio technology there are pretty good odds that your company will find itself facing a few lawsuits because some other company will claim to have created something similar and has a patent.
If you have a warehouse full of your own patents then you just bring yours, show a valid comparison to your new product (Even though it was created on it's own and has nothing to do with it.) and you win your lawsuit.
It is ALL about who has collected the widest collection of patents, and nothing else. Which is why Gateway retained them.
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adolescent wrote:
Magic-Merl wrote:
Sure we all had hopes that KMOS would bring back the Amiga in a big big way but alas it was never to be. At least - that is how it looks.
KMOS bought Amiga for the name, the brand, the ability to market it again.
You're assuming that KMOS ever really existed, and wasn't just a ploy to avoid a legal settlement with Genesi.
Indeed it just seems so!
The facts that AmigaOS was sold to KMOS seems RETROACTIVE and this move is illegal at all...
Amiga Inc. lost the sue with Genesi in an USA Federal Court, and they claimed they can't realize AmigaOS version for Pegasos machine because all intellectual properties of AmigaOS were not anymore in their possess, but owns to KMOS.
Now Genesi has sued Amiga INC. again in Federal Court for not-fulfilment of decisions of the Court in the elder trial.
If Genesi succeded in this new trial, the judge will force Amiga Inc. to realize AmigaOS 4.0 for Pegasos and it could be that also the judge will allow Genesi to name with Amiga brand one of their line of computers.
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OMG who the :madashell: is KMOS now ? :-( South American soap operas are simple comparing to this :-o
So I guess if there >WAS< some company X with milions of $ and willing to buy Amiga name (from whoever), site (from whoever2), patents and IP from Gateway, OS4 from Hyperion, solve mess with Genesi (omg?) ..... it would be years of lawyer time and millions of $ wasted on papers instead R&D :-(
POLL: would 10 million $ would be enough for this ? :idea:
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anyone ?
:-D
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POLL: would 10 million $ would be enough for this ? :idea:
Without wanting to sound negative, 1 million is too much for this at this point.
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Wayne wrote:
POLL: would 10 million $ would be enough for this ? :idea:
Without wanting to sound negative, 1 million is too much for this at this point.
Sure, that might be their technological value, but remember that companies never let things go for what they're actually worth!
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snowman040 wrote:
OMG who the :madashell: is KMOS now ? :-( South American soap operas are simple comparing to this :-o
So I guess if there >WAS< some company X with milions of $ and willing to buy Amiga name (from whoever), site (from whoever2), patents and IP from Gateway, OS4 from Hyperion, solve mess with Genesi (omg?) ..... it would be years of lawyer time and millions of $ wasted on papers instead R&D
The patents aren't really needed to produce a new Amiga computer and/or OS - they mostly relate to 80's technology that serve no useful purpose in the 21st century.
The 'OS4 from Hyperion' bit is probably the easiest - if/when OS4 'final' is released, it's just a single $20k payment to get it back. And if it never gets released, Hyperion only have the rights to 4.0x, so the new owner can just release their own new official version of AmigaOS as 4.1 (or 5.0) and bypass Hyperion altogether.
As for the problems with Genesi, they just need to port AmigaDE to the Pegasos as they were ordered to by the Court some years ago. Since AmigaDE is basically Tao's product with Amiga branding, all this would require is a payment to Tao for them to do the port, and giving Genesi the right to use the Amiga brand name with their products. Job done.
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OK,the patent collecting idea makes sense ,too. For a few million which is chump change to any real computer company Gateway has protection in case of some multimedia attack as well as keeping a potentially competitive system off the market.
A few real old-timers around Cincinnati Ohio politics have said that GM paid the city to close down the streetcars so the people would buy more automobiles for commuting.
More than one company in other fields have bought out a competitor and then shut it down.
Expecting judges or the government to force someone to design,build,or market a product goes against the western free market ideal. Evidently no one with the clout,drive,vision ,or just plain greed is there to push for an Amiga revival.
It is frustrating to know how much money is being spent on death and destruction every day, both by governments and individuals while good things are ignored.
For 1% of what Americans spend on recreational and self-destructive drugs the Amiga could be updated and widely promoted.
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Sorry but as far as I know, Gateway own some AMIGA patents only. Ainc bought the rest. I know for sure, Gateway does not own the OS in any way. From memory, Hyperion own OS4 but A-Inc have a clause saying they can buy it back at any time or something along those lines. There's also some sort of NDA preventing certain ports etc. You would have to ask Hyperion for more info on this however they won't break the NDA.
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@recidivist
For 1% of what Americans spend on recreational and self-destructive drugs the Amiga could be updated and widely promoted.
stay away from our drugs!!! There must be a better way... also I think europe and the rest of the world use drugs also.
:evilgrin:
:python:
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..lets gather money and buy that damn firm, then rename it to Amiga.org and start reproducing Amiga classics in China.. just for start.. :-)
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That actually sounds more likely to happen than getting an AmigaOne 2.
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..the question is WHO owns Amiga Inc. and what is the price of its stocks.. I think that 100 000 USD for a whole company would be a fair price..
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Lando wrote:
snowman040 wrote:
OMG who the :madashell: is KMOS now ? :-( South American soap operas are simple comparing to this :-o
So I guess if there >WAS< some company X with milions of $ and willing to buy Amiga name (from whoever), site (from whoever2), patents and IP from Gateway, OS4 from Hyperion, solve mess with Genesi (omg?) ..... it would be years of lawyer time and millions of $ wasted on papers instead R&D
The patents aren't really needed to produce a new Amiga computer and/or OS - they mostly relate to 80's technology that serve no useful purpose in the 21st century.
Yup, it's only the trademarks that have any value... even that isn't really worth much... except perhaps for some retro gaming comapany?
The 'OS4 from Hyperion' bit is probably the easiest - if/when OS4 'final' is released, it's just a single $20k payment to get it back. And if it never gets released, Hyperion only have the rights to 4.0x, so the new owner can just release their own new official version of AmigaOS as 4.1 (or 5.0) and bypass Hyperion altogether.
But if I've been reading the forums right, certain parts of AmigaOS4.0 are not owned by Hyperion (but by their "friends")... "ExecSG" being the key point here... which effecitly makes "AmigaOS4.0" useless to anybody other than Hyperion.
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SHADES wrote:
Sorry but as far as I know, Gateway own some AMIGA patents only. Ainc bought the rest.
Ainc only bought the Trademarks... and a licence to use exisisting Amiga Patents/Technology from Gateway.
I know for sure, Gateway does not own the OS in any way.
There is a great deal of uncertainty as to exactly what Escom did buy from the Commodore liquidators... there appears to be no mention of the Amiga Operating System, by that token... Have gateway ever owned AmigaOS?
From memory, Hyperion own OS4 but A-Inc have a clause saying they can buy it back at any time or something along those lines.
Except for the parts which Hyperion have cleverly developed outside of their "contract".
There's also some sort of NDA preventing certain ports etc. You would have to ask Hyperion for more info on this however they won't break the NDA.
Urgh...
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I think that 100 000 USD for a whole company would be a fair price..
/me contemplates winning the lottery
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I think i speak for everyone when i ask: So who owns what from who now? :-o
so confusing
Andy
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Apparantly not, as they did sell quite a few titles during the competition promotion they had at handago. It is indeed weird that they do not bother to update such important details on their website.
They are still alive, but it looks like they only milk some few pennies out of their old titles without actually developing anything.
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It's rather pathetic, but the only signs of life as of late has been Vince Pfeiffer getting Amiga.org's Cafepress store shut down last week without warning for "trademark violations". This in direct violation of their own licensing agreement which called for 30% of the sales price which I was willing to add into the price if you guys wanted to pay for it.
This is just insane :-(
I cannot understand how they can go so low and attack individuals in the community.
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cv643d wrote:
What about the German office where Petro worked? Who works there now?
I dont think they managed to pay the costs...
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Wayne,
wtf on two fronts:
a) re the cafepress store
b) re AInc and Gateway.
Please, please, can someone explain what is actually going on there? I'm seeing GW still own things left and right. What is the actual status of things? What is owned and by whom and what does this entail?
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I'm new registered inhere. But I like to take part of this discussion.
To me it's very clear that Gateway still owns every rights on Amiga patents; on Amiga hardware AND software, including AmigaOS untill OS version3.1 .
AmigaInc. has only a license bought from Gateway to use the AmigaOS and to develop to it etc. Of course the changes after version 3.1 are not into the deal.
Gateway bought all Amiga rights to produce etc. Amiga's form Escom. Escom bought all rights 2 years earlier from Commodore leftovers. Hense Escom has sold new A1200's and A4000's!
So to me it's clear. Gateway has all rights on Amiga.
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Welcome John, im pretty new here too.
So Gateway still own (I thought they'd died too until i google'd them) the rights to the original hardware and OS3.1 whereas AmigaInc own the trademarks for OS3.5/3.9 and in conjunction with Hyperion to OS4.x
thanks for clearing that up
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Hm,... yes rather confusing :-?
So in order to get Amiga 'back from 1994' and to produce hardware and software both for new Amigas and classic Amigas (with Amiga brand) it would take bying:
- patents/IP from Gateway
- Amino/Amiga Inc. (or their licence)
- Hyperion/OS4.0 development
- ... ?
I guess scoring two out of three would be almost impossible, especially because Gateway bought Amiga "cuz they had the money", and not to do something with it... I doubt they would sell the patents for what they paid for them :-( (was it 5 million$?)
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Ainc is alive.
;-)
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@AmigaBlitter
from what everyones been saying that sounds like half the problem :-D
I dont think a new amiga is feasible, certainly not one with new custom chips etc. What i'd like to see is Dennis' MiniMig become a fully fledged OpenSource project and have people extend that to AGA/a1200 capabilities.
.. but anyway that's way way way off this topic :-)
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Other steps are necessary before start talking about new custom chip.
The custom chip way.... however.... is feasible.
:)
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I have read numerous posts about Gateway selling the rights to use of their still owned patents. These are not AMIGA names. I also beleive most of the hardware rights was sold two. An exception was a patent for the two button mouse. However A-Inc have the right to use the patent and any other they feel is useful.
They certainly don't own OS4 or 3.9. A Inc bought the rights to the OS and can do what they like to it. I don't rember the post from Fleecy Moss but I do rember reading it.
Exactly what A Inc own when it comes to the rest of AMIGA property is a mystery to me, Hyperion own OS4 but there is some sort of clause saying A Inc can buy it back whenever they want to.
AMIGA world.net may provide more info. I can't be bothered digging around to find any of it. Sorry. Just not that interested.
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I have read numerous posts about Gateway selling the rights to use of their still owned patents. These are not AMIGA names. I also beleive most of the hardware rights was sold two. An exception was a patent for the two button mouse.
Most of the patents have either expired or will be expiring shortly.
They certainly don't own OS4 or 3.9. A Inc bought the rights to the OS and can do what they like to it. I don't rember the post from Fleecy Moss but I do rember reading it.
No, Amiga Inc owns WB 3.1. 3.5/3.9 is by H&P which has a dispute going with Amiga Inc over $. OS4, like 3.5/3.9, is owned by Hyperion and not Amiga Inc but also like H&P, is based on Amiga Inc IP so Hyperion only owns the code that does not infringe on Amiga Inc's IP. Unlike the H&P contract, it appears Amiga Inc can buy back OS4 for $25K.
Dammy
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I really need to brush up on corporate law, Dammy.
When you talk of the patents expiring or are expiring, what exactly does this entail? That they are up for grabs? By patents do we mean the actual tech can be reproduced (fpr example) or something?
[...]Hyperion only owns the code that does not infringe on Amiga Inc's IP.
So this supplement or advancement to AOS by Hyperion, is it a "dilution" of the whole OS as we know it? By dilution I mean are a series of companies able to stake a claim to the OS causing further problems down the track?
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I'd like to point out a few things. The only public statement regarding ownership of the trademarks and the IP is from Amino/Amiga Inc, made in early 2000. They claimed to have acquired the IP, the trademarks, the German subsidiary Amiga International aswell as office computers and furniture from the old (Gateway) Amiga Inc. They also said they had licensed the patents from Gateway.
(About) two years ago, the Gateway subsidiary "Amiga Development LLC" sued some other company for patent infringement, which demonstrates that at least the patents are still owned by Gateway.
That's all the public knows (or rather: "has been told", wouldn't want to rely on AmigaInc statements too much). Everybody who claims anything else is either relying on rumours (that might be true or not), or is simply making things up.
@Bodie_CI5:
When you talk of the patents expiring or are expiring, what exactly does this entail? That they are up for grabs? By patents do we mean the actual tech can be reproduced (fpr example) or something?
A patent protects an idea. If you file a patent, the patent office (theoretically) checks if the patent really covers a new idea and then grants the patent. From now on, the patent holder is the only entity allowed to use said idea in commercial products (or license it to other parties).
However, a patent does not grant you a monopoly on your idea for lifetime - it expires after a while, to make sure the idea doesn't die with your company if you f?ck things up. In most areas of the world, patents expire after 15 (or was it 17?) years. Once a patent expires, you can't apply for another patent with the same idea, as it's no longer a new idea. The concept originally protected by the patent is now free to use for everybody.
This is a moot discussion anyway. As already mentioned, most of the Amiga patents deal with details of the hardware implementation, the only one that would be still relevant for us today is the one that covers multiple mousebutton clicks in drop down menus - and even that one should have expired everywhere by now.
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Bodie_CI5 wrote:
[...]Hyperion only owns the code that does not infringe on Amiga Inc's IP.
So this supplement or advancement to AOS by Hyperion, is it a "dilution" of the whole OS as we know it? By dilution I mean are a series of companies able to stake a claim to the OS causing further problems down the track?
Yeah, that's a pretty good way of looking at it. I have also read on forums frequented by OS4 developers that advanced parts of OS4 are owned by their respective developer rather than Hyperion... This increases the number of claimants to the OS.
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This is all very very interesting.
From various online searches, I found that there are three "Amiga, Inc.": one is from the Gateway days, but I cannot find where it was incorporated. It is the company where Jim Collas was president. Does anybody know more about this "Amiga, Inc."?
Because this is so confusing (THREE "Amiga, Inc." and all independent!) I think we should write something like "Amiga, Inc. (Washington)" or "Amiga, Inc. (Delaware)", otherwise nobody understands which company is meant.
I checked that patents expire 20 years after the date of the first filing, so I would guess that the original Amiga patents are not relevant for Amiga any more.
While searching for this on patente I also found out something maybe interesting at www.uspto.gov. In the Trademarks section, you can search for all "Amiga" trademarks. And there it says that in Juli and August of this year, which is only a few days ago, Amiga, Inc. (Delaware) requested several trademarks for "Amiga". These trademarks appear to be like the ones owned by Gateway and then by Amiga, Inc. (Washington). So, why would the Delaware company do such a filing now in 2006, if they already owned them?
Another thing that can be found only in German maybe, is that in 1997 a German court concluded that ESCOM did not explicitly obtain any rights, or at least any exclusive rights, for the Amiga 3.1 operating system:
In der zwischen der Commodore-Amiga-Gruppe und der X. geschlossenen Veträgen ist nur von -sämtlichen aufgrund der Patente bestehenden Rechte, Titel und Rechtsansprüche- die Rede; das Betriebssystem OS3.1 ist dort nicht als solches bezeichnet. Den vorgelegten Unterlagen über eine Vereinbarung zwischen diesen Parteien vom 13.03.1995 lässt sich deshalb nicht hinreichend überprüfbar entnehmen, daß die X. die ausschliesslichen Lizenzrechte an dem Betriebssystem erworben hat.
So, if Amiga, Inc. (Delaware) owns no patents, no trademarks, and no operating system, why does it even exist? This I cannot understand.
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there are NOT 3 differnt amiga Inc. there is one. It started after/durign the gateway period. they have moved around, maybe for some leagal/finacal reason.
"why does it even exist? This I cannot understand."
nobody does! but they DO own the rights to the OS, they licence/share them with hyperion, at least for 3.5 3.9 and 4.0 thanks all I know and it may be wrong?
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Also the Wikipedia had very old information, which is why I asked in this forum:
- Amiga (disambiguation) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_%28disambiguation%29)
- Amiga, Inc. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga%2C_Inc.)
Maybe somebody can update this, and explain that there is one "Amiga, Inc. (Washington)" and one "Amiga, Inc. (Delaware)", and another one from before 1998? Otherwise nobody can understand, if "disambiguation" is itself ambiguous when it puts three different companies with the same name in a single entry as if it was one company.
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pierre wrote:
there are NOT 3 differnt amiga Inc. there is one. It started after/durign the gateway period. they have moved around, maybe for some leagal/finacal reason.
There may not be three, but that there are at least two I am 100% sure, and you can verify:
1 = Washington UBI number 601 983 734, incorporated 30. September 1999 (source: http://www.secstate.wa.gov/corps/search.aspx)
2 = Delaware file number 3712284, incorporated 7. October 2003, now operating from New York (sources: https://sos-res.state.de.us/tin/GINameSearch.jsp, http://appsext5.dos.state.ny.us/corp_public/corpsearch.entity_search_entry)
These are totally different companies. A separate legal entity is not the same as "moving around". A lot of confusion is because people do not understand this. As to why the same persons (same president at least) decided to have two companies with the same name, anybody can judge by their own standards. I think it is something like deliberate deception.
So, who knows where I can find information about the "Amiga, Inc." where Jim Collas was president? I looked in South Dakota and California, but cannot find anything.
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they had to do this as they where being sued, it the same company. don't get to confused it's not worth it. Same company moving around....
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pierre wrote:
but they DO own the rights to the OS, they licence/share them with hyperion, at least for 3.5 3.9 and 4.0 thanks all I know and it may be wrong?
As I've said before and has just been posted, One cannot be certain Escom ever got AmigaOS from the Commodore liquidators... as such AmigaOS is most likely legaly stuck in abandonware limbo (not public domain), if it really mattered to anyone... but since AmigaOS is of no value, I doubt anyone cares.
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there is only one amiga inc. it was started by gateway and was cut loose at some point (became privatly held). After that I may have changed owernership of managment but it the same company with the same assets! Yes they reregisterd the company in a differnt state with differnt managment, so what?
I suggest you try to sell the amigaOS and see who sues you, that will lead you the owner... who said the OS has no value? what? Please correct me if I am wrong but there is no need to make this more confussing than it already is.
My main point is there CAN'T be two companys called amiga inc at the same time, just like you can't start another "blockbuster" or "sony".
im done
bye
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they had to do this as they where being sued, it the same company. don't get to confused it's not worth it. Same company moving around....
So, you are saying it is one company for the purpose of representing what is left of the Amiga IP, but it is two conveniently different companies when it comes to being sued? That would be a bit too easy, wouldn't it? If A and B are not the same in front of a court, then it also means that they need to find a way to move the good things out of A and into B. As the new trademark filings done by the new company appear to indicate, they have not find such a way.
there is only one amiga inc. it was started by gateway and was cut loose at some point (became privatly held). After that I may have changed owernership of managment but it the same company with the same assets! ... My main point is there CAN'T be two companys called amiga inc at the same time, just like you can't start another "blockbuster" or "sony".
I do not understand your insistence. I (and others) provided links indicating that this is not so. In the USA you can have one company with the same name in each different state. There are 50 states. Washington is one state. Delaware is another state.
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You said it!
Amiga Inc. Dont care about US! its the Amiga users like you & i that make what Amiga is today
like Hyperion & ACK
Keep up the good work guys
SyperHawk
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The world's best operating system "is of no value"? Nonsense.
I certainly agree that Amiga Inc., since Petro left, has been nothing but a thorn in the side of the Amiga community. In particular Ray Akey and Gary Peake have gone out of their way to try to make trouble for various Amiga sites. And of course have contributed nothing to anyone.
I have little more regard for Eyetech, they have produced a tiny number of buggy, overpriced, underpowered AmigaOnes and then refused to make any more of them.
So we have the current situation where no matter how much enthusiasm there is for the Amiga it is not possible to expand the userbase, thus the Amiga seems surely doomed.
Which lamer made the decision to only let OS4 run on these machines that can't be bought? Oh, Amiga Inc. of course.
If OS4 can't be ported to an OPEN PPC architecture I'm not sure what the solution is. I think it is vital to get PearPC to emulate the AmigaOne, this is the only feasible option at the present time for growing the OS4 userbase. Just as UAE seems the only feasible option for growing the OS3.9 userbase.
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@pierre
Seems your confused bout the timeline.
It's not certain wether C= still had full ownership of OS3.1 at the time it went belly-up (villagetronic was producing/selling upgrade-kits, MocroSystem's Draco and maybe even more).
It's not certain wether the (partial) ownership was transfered to Escom.
Whatever Escom actually owned was than transfered to GateWay. Assuming the the VisCorp-interlude didn't muddy the water even more.
It's also not clear what Amino really bought from GateWay, what was just licenced and more importantly whats been either left out or never fully paid.
And then there is H&P having partial ownership on 3.5/9 and Cloanto what seems to be an exclusive licence to ROM-images.
All of that would be a total mess if it ever got to court. Which is offcourse highly unlikely with AOS being pretty much wortless these days.
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Which lamer made the decision to only let OS4 run on these machines that can't be bought? Oh, Amiga Inc. of course.
Make that AmigaInc,Hyperion and Eyetech and your spot on.
Noone forced Hyperion to develop OS4 under these condition, heck they were warned again and again before.
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@Kronos:
Hyperion were silly to agree to those conditions, but I don't judge them harshly, because at least they have definitely produced something of quality, which is debatable about Eyetech and definitely not true for Amiga Inc.
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Well, your question was "Which lamer made the descision....", and you just have to include the Hype in any valid answer.
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I think getting OS4 working via PearPC would be a great idea. Anyone know if its possible?
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pierre wrote:
My main point is there CAN'T be two companys called amiga inc at the same time, just like you can't start another "blockbuster" or "sony".
My understanding (and I admit I only have a vague understanding here) is that two companies can share a name, as long as they're in different fields. If, say, one Amiga Inc. was a florist and didn't touch the computer market, they could have the same name as the computer/software company.
(Again, I might be wrong!)
Ian-uk wrote:
I think getting OS4 working via PearPC would be a great idea. Anyone know if its possible?
Not legally, unless you have an A1 and a legal copy of OS4. Then again, aren't A1s reference boards or something with some kind of dongle to stop OS4 being used on other hardware? If so, I can't see why it couldn't (theoretically) be done.
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I think getting OS4 working via PearPC would be a great idea. Anyone know if its possible?
Should be possible if you find a way to work around the UBoot/Firmware issues.
As has been posted earlier, Adam Kowalczyk from ACK has already successfully managed to boot to OS4 under QEMU.
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Technicly there are some instances where two companies can have the same name, like you point out. THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH AMIGA INC. There is only one amiga inc. If for some reason you can't belive this or are confused by what you read, take it from me, I have watched this all happen... there is only one amiga inc.
If you think you just figured out that amiga inc does not own the OS or some other legal oversite consider that people have spent the least 7 years attempting the sort this out, so odds are you did not just find that loophole, esp if you don't have a legal background. If you do think you have found a way to get the licence to the OS, great, check with a lawyer and THEN let us know how much money we need. IF I am wrong please let me know as I don't want to spread false info. I don't know why but this subject make me frustrated, esp when people insist on fase info!
Yes amiga inc is alive, but it would appear the have been on life support for years. amiga inc has made it clear that they don't have any intrest in the amiga community, so with any luck somebody will pull the plug on the life support and put then out of there misery.
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@pierre
".... people have spend the least 7 attemting to sort this out ...."
Actually noone (after Villagetronic) ever really attempted to figure
it out (in a court-room that is), cos noone believed that AmigaOS was
worth enough after Escom collapsed.
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I must admit that this has crossed my mind too... a shell company was created to conceal the assets of Amiga Inc in a very carefully executed maneouvre.
Whether this was good clever or bad clever remains to be seen...
If the secret service MI5 has a department with it's sole purpose to discredit and suppress then I'm sure the ruthless world of business has also considered departments in their companies to buy rivals, harvest them of their useful bits and suppress them ever re-entering the market.
Microsoft did have that thing with the AutoExecute patent didn't they?
;-)
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pierre wrote:
Technicly there are some instances where two companies can have the same name, like you point out. THIS IS NOT THE CASE WITH AMIGA INC. There is only one amiga inc. If for some reason you can't belive this or are confused by what you read, take it from me, I have watched this all happen... there is only one amiga inc.
Pierre, perhaps you should take it from Bill McEwen (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=46682):
"the Washington Amiga and the Delaware Amiga are unrelated"