Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: neofree on July 09, 2006, 05:08:25 PM
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OK Guys, I am probably speaking to deaf ears, but it's seriously time to move on. I give two options that give any hope to OS4:
1. Choose an existing or create a new Open PPC motherboard as the hardware for OS4.
2. Make OS4 an alternative OS for the Mac.
Pick one, please before we all don't care anymore.
Thanks,
Neofree
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yup go complete commodore 64/128 8bit :-D
________
LovelyWendie (http://www.lovelywendie99.com/)
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Well I am into 8 bit already, but kinda bored of that lately..
Honestly I'm thinking about going Mac...
Amiga has let me down, I give up.
Thanks,
Neofree
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I expect 1: will happen sooner or later.
I am hoping for close of September! 8-)
Mind you, if you are loaded, why don't you go MOS or OS3.x while you are waiting?
Or...... if you are poor you could go AROS while you are waiting. :-D
You never know. You may lose track of time while you are traveling along your chosen track!
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"Move along... nothing to see here... come on people, move along!"
Actually I haven't moved on from my A500 yet, but when I do (sometime in 2007) I'll move to a Mac.
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Honestly I am getting bored of Retro Computing as a whole.
I want a computer to be usable, and OS4 is Amiga's only chance. But I would call it more of a Joke then a Chance.
Thanks,
Neofree
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BTW, definately not loaded.
Looking at Macs under $100 on eBay. Most are G3 300-400Mhz. Are these worth anything? Could I convert an AVI to DVD with it?
Thanks,
Neofree
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I want a computer to be usable, and OS4 is Amiga's only chance.
So, an Amiga that runs OS4 is usable but it's not usable when it runs AOS3.9 or MOS?
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OS3.x is dead, retro ware.
I want a computer that has a modern browser, P2P software, video editing software that works with AVI (DivX, XviD), DVD, QuickTime, etc. Does OS3.x do that?
Thanks,
Neofree
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I want a computer that has a modern browser, P2P software
You see my point now? OS4 does not have a modern browser or P2P software. Bouriquet for OS4 is in early beta stage and abandoned.
video editing software that works with AVI (DivX, XviD), DVD, QuickTime, etc. Does OS3.x do that?
Well, does OS4 do that? :-)
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The point is OS4 would be the only one that would do it in the future. If it doesnt just die completely from everyone involved running out of money.
Apple made the switch to Intel processors, no one liked it at first but now they're faster because of it. The point? Comprimises have to be made.
Thanks,
Neofree
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neofree wrote:
The point is OS4 would be the only one that would do it in the future. If it doesnt just die completely from everyone involved running out of money.
Seeing as it's very likely that MorphOS will get a modern browser before OS 4 will, I don't see where you're coming from here.
I find it odd that people still think that OS4 is more likely to succeed than the alternatives, despite the evidence saying otherwise (that is to say, they're all as dead as each other)
Apple made the switch to Intel processors, no one liked it at first but now they're faster because of it. The point? Comprimises have to be made.
That's a crap point as
a) The vast majority of people both in and out of the Mac community were supportive of the decision once the plan had been explained
b) In no way was it a compromise.
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neofree wrote:
The point is OS4 would be the only one that would do it in the future.
We will have to agree to disagree on this on.
If it doesnt just die completely from everyone involved running out of money.
Apple made the switch to Intel processors, no one liked it at first but now they're faster because of it. The point? Comprimises have to be made.
What compromises were made? Jobs realized that IBM and Mot have been blowing smoke for all these years and the brutal truth slammed into him, it was time to jump to a arch with a fast developement future. The only stap gap he had to do was a emulator for old PPC apps, and the need for it will fade away in time.
Dammy
Office of Management and Budget
Schultz Autobahn :-D
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neofree wrote:
Looking at Macs under $100 on eBay. Most are G3 300-400Mhz. Are these worth anything? Could I convert an AVI to DVD with it?
Yep, they're worth somewhere between $0 and $100 :-D (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Those Macs should be able to convert AVI to DVD with something like FFMpegX (http://www.ffmpegx.com/), as long as they run OS X 10.3 or higher (I think G3s can, can't be bothered to look it up though.)
You might want to hold off though. There was an article on Low End Mac (http://www.lowendmac.com) recently that suggested that the price of G4s is going to plummet now the Intel transition is underway.
Alternatively, why not get a Mac Mini? The PPC version isn't exactly a powerhouse, but it's not too shabby at video encoding (and certainly better than those G3s!)
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Hum,
These are not the computers you are looking for...
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I think too many people are expecting a new piece of hardware to come out and then the "Amiga" will enjoy some sort of rebirth or out-of-the-dead experience. Its not going to happen. Just enjoy retro computing for what its worth...dont put too much stock into vapourware..enjoy what you have..that way if you're not expecting anything you dont get all depressed because nothing new is out.
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neofree wrote:
Honestly I am getting bored of Retro Computing as a whole.
Seriously, get a Commodore 8 bit! I'd suggest a clean 128D, but even an old breadbox C64 would do the trick. Never get bored of retro computing on a C= 8bit.
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Mac is a good choice, IMO. Bought an Intel based Mac Mini for the old lady and she's quite fond of it. I'll probably get a PowerMac once they convert to Intel too.
BTW just a little nitpick. You say you are tired of retro computing, because they (AOS and clones) don't have modern apps? Me thinks you miss the point of "retro computing". Either you are looking for a modern AOS(clone), or a retro system. Modern AOS(clones) are quite lacking, retro systems (1000 - 4000 etc) are still out there and as retro as you get.
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You dont have to leave the Amiga when you switch to another platform?. You can use whatever computer you like to get the job done.
I use a Mac mini for browsing/email and multitrack recording
an A1200/030 for 8 bit record sampling and sample tracking and a PC for Video editing.
If they ever release some kind of modern upgrade for my A1200 to run OS4 then I'll probably buy it. I might even buy a new motherboard for OS4 if it doesnt cost $1000
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spihunter:
I am curious why you chose the PC for video editing, I thought Mac's were best for that stuff...?
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Because thats the computer in my colection that has the best video card and the most Ram. I only have a fresh install of Windows XP and my editing software on the machine. It also is never connected to the internet :lol:
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My interest in Mac lately is you cant browse the net without getting clobbered with spyware or viruses.. I guess Linux is a choice too but it would seem the Mac is better commercially supported and a little easier.
Thanks,
Neofree
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MacOS rocks. Get a Mac. Immediately.
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moto
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I've never had a complaint about my Mac Mini since I bought it a year and half ago. I ended up putting a gig of ram in it and getting an external firewire drive for it to speed things up a bit.
I wouldnt use it as a video editing or a gaming machine but as a multitrack sound recording machine it preforms pretty well.
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:-)
AInc/Hyperion/whoever he hell is developing AOS now are fools to be holding on to OS4. OS4 with a nice installer to allow it to run on a Mac would sell tonnes of copies. All the money they make could be reinvested in an "Amiga" hardware solution if they really must.
But then, what do I know. I'm just an end user :roll:
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moto
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@motorollin,
I started asking for that as soon as the Mac Mini came out. I didnt seem like a bad idea to me. You know, making money for your company and stuff to develop the OS further :roll:
I know, its more complex then that :crazy:
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spihunter wrote:
I know, its more complex then that :crazy:
Why? :-?
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moto
--EDIT
Correct smiley this time!
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Why?
You know, because of licencing issues, no available tech docs , politics, and all the other crap that keeps the flames going around here.
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maffoo wrote:
neofree wrote:
Looking at Macs under $100 on eBay. Most are G3 300-400Mhz. Are these worth anything? Could I convert an AVI to DVD with it?
Yep, they're worth somewhere between $0 and $100 :-D (Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Those Macs should be able to convert AVI to DVD with something like FFMpegX (http://www.ffmpegx.com/), as long as they run OS X 10.3 or higher (I think G3s can, can't be bothered to look it up though.)
Yes, a G3 is still supported under OS X 10.4.x. However it runs really poorly. I'm currently using an iBook G3 500Mhz while my MacBookPro is away with Apple being serviced and it is barely usable. It can't play DivX full-speed and you can forget about multitasking. Just about gets by as a web browsing machine using Safari (Camino and Firefox are too slow). You could use it to convert video but it would have to be left overnight.
If you're getting an old G3 Mac and intend running OS X, make sure that the graphics card is supported by Quartz Extreme (16MB ATI Radeon minimum) and that you have at least 512MB RAM. If you actually intend doing anything useful with it, though, IMO a G4-500 with 32MB graphics is absolute minimum.
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Ahhh, but lets not forget that there was a complete rethink to MacOS in the 1990's (exact date of switch from OS 9 to 10 as a whole evades me currently). Now MacOS X is really just a pretty face on top of good old FreeBSD! I always liked the stability of the *nix boxes I worked with.
I am currently going to be re-acquiring my Mac Mini (PPC) back very soon and I am more than happy to be using AmigaOS (soon to be 3.9) and MacOS X 10.4.6 for my day to day operations.
The whole Amiga experience for me is to be able to play some games that I liked when I had DOS 6.22 running. The Miggie just actually runs them better.
Although it is my dream to see Amiga make a comeback as a modern OS, it would (as MacOS X did) loose some of the charm that makes it what it is. While MacOS X is by far superior to any previous MacOS, it is not the same. I think that if Amiga does make a comeback, it will need to make the hard decision to be "modern" as well. That means you'll have two camps: classic Amiga and the new AmigaOS. (This is compared to those who run classic MacOS (9.1 or earlier) and those who run MacOS X.
Having been the president of my local Macintosh User Group, I can say that there are indeed fierce supporters of pre-MacOS X operating systems. The applications that they can not live without did not make it into OS X. I think we would definitely see the same thing here.
But I agree that we should enjoy retro computing and actually should make sure that as my generation moves forward, that "the kids" know what was so that they may appreciate what is. This is my whole motivation for the projects I am working on involving Amigas.
plus, the whole idea of "Remember when computing was fun?" is why we still use our machines.
My final thought for this posting is: What makes a computer usable is subjective. It depends on what the owner of the machine wants to accomplish and his or her needs. If the Amiga fills the needs of the owner, why not use it as your primary machine. If it can not fulfill your needs, then consider another platform. I like Macintosh very much, but it will not (without an emulator anyhow) do what my Amiga can do for me, Hence the Amiga fulfills my need for playing my retro games and probably could fulfill most of my other needs for Word Processing, etc... but what it does not do (to my satisfaction) is handle my music (there is no match to iTunes anywhere IMHO!). SO I will always need my Macintosh as well.
Point condensed: If your computer works for you the way you need it to, then why stop using it?
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Eventhough there are some tasks for wich we don't have uptodate programs (yet), a classic machine is still a very good choice for plenty tasks today. You can use PageStream to do desktop publishing on a pro level, specially if you use it in combination with ImageFX, wich rules on the image processing camp. For developing you can use CubicIDE wich has a ton of useable features (CygnusEd rules as far as resource usage is concerned , but it's not an IDE). The list goes on (I'm tired:))...
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You know, because of licencing issues, no available tech docs , politics, and all the other crap that keeps the flames going around here.
Don't forget the bloated egos. Must never forget those.
Dammy
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The fact that OS4 system development is ongoing in the face of no publicly available hardware suggests that there's a lot more happening behind the scenes that we end-users don't know about.
I'm confident that something will appear "eventually", but the question is, how long does your patience last for such a timeframe? Mine evidently lasts a really long time and I'm willing to wait. My classic systems are an enjoyable hobby and good enough for what I need to do with them as a primary computer: email, simple web, word processing, music, the occasional image, and games. For me, video encoding and DVD recording are luxuries that I don't really need. I'll get into them when the Amiga supports them. It happens when it happens.
Obviously if you need this sort of functionality immediately, then you need a more modern primary system! Keep your Amigas as a hobby if you're so inclined, but ultimately, use the system that best serves your needs.
I prefer enjoyability over functionality, others probably prefer the opposite. Hence, your primary system is revealed!
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If all complaining people get there heads together and start building the application they desire so much things will be alot better for them.
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neofree: 1. Choose an existing or create a new Open PPC motherboard as the hardware for OS4.
They already chose an existing design for AmigaOne. It was still buggy and expensive.
Make their own design? Buggy and SUPER expensive.
C'mon, people gotta admit the new Intel Conroe processors are looking pretty good...
TheMagicM: I think too many people are expecting a new piece of hardware to come out and then the "Amiga" will enjoy some sort of rebirth or out-of-the-dead experience. Its not going to happen.
Hardware is just a means to an end. Unless there's real excitement about what the OS can do, it won't go anywhere.
Hyperion is bonkers if they think holding off for a good hardware rollout is going to make a slam-dunk showing. They need to focus on things that will grab the geeks -- things other OSes can't do. You know, like, make a brilliant new shell that makes Bash look like machine language, or something that FINALLY obsoletes FTP and NFS, in favor of transparrent connections, like what Plan9 was doing. I'm shocked to see that MacOSX still uses NFS for logging into other computers though the window manager! WTF?!
neofree: My interest in Mac lately is you cant browse the net without getting clobbered with spyware or viruses.
I've been virus free for 10 years. I don't recall having any spam problems for at least 2, probably longer.
Use Firefox or Opera, plus some common sense, and you won't have problems. Period.
Oh yeah, and get rid of Norton if you have it. In my experience, it will *destroy* your Windows machine. I hate Norton Anything with a passion.
motorollin: AInc/Hyperion/whoever he hell is developing AOS now are fools to be holding on to OS4. OS4 with a nice installer to allow it to run on a Mac would sell tonnes of copies.
There's too much idealism, not enough ideas.
irishmike: The whole Amiga experience for me is to be able to play some games that I liked when I had DOS 6.22 running. The Miggie just actually runs them better.
No kidding. I completely forgot how painful MS-DOS programs really were until I got DOSBox to run some old games.
irishmike: plus, the whole idea of "Remember when computing was fun?" is why we still use our machines.
It was fun because it was all so new. These days, you just have glossy interfaces covering up the warts. I don't presume OS4 is any more "fun" than Windows. The design is just too old. No matter how much Windows aggrivates me, going from Win2K to OS3 is a brain numbing experience.
HellCoder: If all complaining people get there heads together and start building the application they desire so much things will be alot better for them.
An OS is a platform for tools. Without the right tools, it's a lot harder to write applications.
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@hellcoder
Those who can do.
Those than can't {bleep} and moan that someone else hasn't done it yet.
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Complaining is passive and doesn't help, only pisses off those who still enjoy it. (Me for example) If you want there is still alot to learn, and the Amiga can provide that too! If you can't program, why not learn and make that what you want. You'll be surprised how much joy it gives you!
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HellCoder wrote:
If you can't program, why not learn and make that what you want. You'll be surprised how much joy it gives you!
Sure, I'll learn to write apps for OS4 one of these readily-available AmigaOne boards :roll:
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moto
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Is that a complaint ?
:-D
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Definitely not. I would hate for anybody to think I was complaining :-P
My point is that it's all very well asking people to be proactive and develop for the platform, but how are they supposed to do that if they can't but the platform in the first place?
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moto
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Uh..
Well, I haven't got OS4 nor do I have an AmigaONE, but the software I wrote runs on it. I don't want to believe that it's the Amiga his own platform that is stopping it for growing futher.
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"Time to Move On"
It was time to move on 10-15 years ago, so what?
Old stuff is fun, from a time when computer tech was more diverse and exotic instead of mundane and boring like it is now. Console tech continues to be innovative and interesting, but desktop tech is, meh.
Oh yeah and, +1 to everything Waccoon said in his last post.
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+1 to everything Waccoon said in his last post for me too..
You expect too much for OS4. Take MOS and put the "WB"3.9 instead of Ambient, put OS4Emu and you have an "OS4" more Amiga 68k and PPC compatible than a pure OS4...
About porting to MAC, forgot about Apple licences fees :rtfm: .
About new licensing hardware, forgot about Eyetech exclusivity :rtfm: (you can read some agreement in late 2001/2002..)..
About using OS4 on something else than CPPC and Aone, forgot about A.Inc and Eyetech exclusivity licensing :rtfm: (you can also read some agreement in late 2001/2002..).
About a modern browser, forgot about that if it was possible it would be already done on 68k and MorphOS ! :rtfm: .
About a new official hardware, forgot about A. RedHouse interview in June 2005 :rtfm: (but you can read some agreement in late 1999 with Genesi..).
You never see and try a long time OS4 and MorphOS, so try them like i did first ! :rtfm:
Amiga is an hobby system, and will stay as is. This is why lots of people are still making 68k programs that run on classic AOS and MorphOS, and sometimes under OS4...
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CLS2086 wrote:
About porting to MAC, forgot about Apple licences fees :rtfm: .
I don't accept that as a reason for not porting OS4 to run on a Mac. Do you think Linux developers pay Apple a license fee for the privilege of porting Linux to Apple hardware? I don't think so. So why would AmigaOS be any different? The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is drivers, but that's no excuse when Linux PPC drivers already exist.
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moto
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The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is the problem of the x86 CPU's used inside them
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nicholas wrote:
The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is the problem of the x86 CPU's used inside them
Rubbish. There are loads of PPC Macs still available.
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moto
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CLS2086 wrote:
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instead of Ambient, put OS4Emu and you have an "OS4" more Amiga 68k and PPC compatible than a pure OS4...
...
This is why lots of people are still making 68k programs that run on classic AOS and MorphOS, and sometimes under OS4...
You really do make it sound like MorphOS runs a significantly higher percentage of 68k apps than OS4, which I don't think is the case. The difference is marginal; OS4 runs all the system friendly apps i've ever thrown at it. We even have a working Nalle Puh ;-)
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Digibooster works on 1200 + MOS ;)
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irishmike wrote:
Ahhh, but lets not forget that there was a complete rethink to MacOS in the 1990's (exact date of switch from OS 9 to 10 as a whole evades me currently). Now MacOS X is really just a pretty face on top of good old FreeBSD! I always liked the stability of the *nix boxes I worked with.
Actually, Mac OSX is based on the Mach kernel with a FreeBSD layer on top. It is a mess of an operating system IMHO and quite inefficient.
From what I've hard from other people using OSX, it's not as stable as other *nix'es.
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srg86 wrote:
Actually, Mac OSX is based on the Mach kernel with a FreeBSD layer on top. It is a mess of an operating system IMHO and quite inefficient.
It works beautifully IMO, and is less of a mess than (for example) Linux.
srg86 wrote:
From what I've hard from other people using OSX, it's not as stable as other *nix'es.
I don't know what they're doing to make it unstable. None of my Macs have *ever* crashed or produced unexpected error messages.
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moto
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CLS2086 wrote:
Digibooster works on 1200 + MOS ;)
So what? It probably works on classic + OS4, too.
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motorollin wrote:
srg86 wrote:
Actually, Mac OSX is based on the Mach kernel with a FreeBSD layer on top. It is a mess of an operating system IMHO and quite inefficient.
It works beautifully IMO, and is less of a mess than (for example) Linux.
Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.
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srg86 wrote:
Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.
Who cares? I'd much prefer to throw a slightly faster processor at the OS and end up with something stable (like MacOS) than have something supposedly less "messy" but runs like dog sh*t (like Windows).
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
I don't accept that as a reason for not porting OS4 to run on a Mac. Do you think Linux developers pay Apple a license fee for the privilege of porting Linux to Apple hardware? I don't think so. So why would AmigaOS be any different? The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is drivers, but that's no excuse when Linux PPC drivers already exist.
moto
But Linux developers dont charge for the OS, Hyperion/Ainc etc would be wanting money for OS4, making it a commercial venture.
I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?
Dont get me wrong, if Hyperion released OS4 for PPC-Mac tommorrow, I'd probably be in line for my copy and the MacMini here would soon have an identity crisis. :-D
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coldfish wrote:
But Linux developers dont charge for the OS, Hyperion/Ainc etc would be wanting money for OS4, making it a commercial venture.
I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?
I don't think Apple would care as long as they are selling hardware. The OS people choose to use on it is nothing to do with them. I find it very hard to believe that Apple would charge developers a license fee for porting a commercial OS to their hardware.
Put it another way: If Hyperion decided to port OS4 to Intel, would they have to pay Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, and all the other manufacturers of IBM Compatible hardware a license fee? I don't think so.
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moto
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About a modern browser, forgot about that if it was possible it would be already done on 68k and MorphOS !
Indeed. Lack of tools is one thing, but the OS has to conform to minimum standards, too. Making software portable is developing for the lowest common denominator. Abstraction layers for AmigaOS are pretty much emulators, not translators.
xeron: OS4 runs all the system friendly apps i've ever thrown at it
How many of those are there? ;-)
motorollin: It works beautifully IMO, and is less of a mess than (for example) Linux.
Yeah, but how many hardware platforms does Linux support? Can you run the latest OSX on a Mac that is 6+ years old?
Plus, high-level driver support is a joke. All you need is one bad driver to wipe out a system. Contrary to popular belief, Linux is no more immune to crashes than Windows if you have buggy drivers, and Linux has plenty of those.
Never confuse "clean" with "sparse". Besides, Linux isn't clean by any standards. I'd be more fair to compare OSX to BSD, its parent. What has Apple done to improve BSD? Or, have they merely stripped out the stuff they think they don't need?
motorollin: I don't know what they're doing to make it unstable. None of my Macs have *ever* crashed or produced unexpected error messages.
My mini has. A few lock-ups, too. Even if there is Mach and UN*X underneath, at the GUI level, it's all proprietary closed-source code made by Apple. It has plenty of bugs of its own.
I tried to play a DVD, and I got one of those infamous "negative number" error messages. I tried to make a connection to my web server, and I got an error "-50". Great work on the usability front, Apple. Everyone knows negative numbers are the best way to handle unexpected results. It also locked up during the NFS connection, once I did figure out why I was getting "-50".
If I didn't need the Mac for software testing, I'd sell it. It's certainly no more stable than my Win2K system.
srg86: Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.
Lots of overhead is typical in a mircokernel OS. Windows NT fits in this category, BTW.
There's really no hard speration between monolithic and microkernel unless the OS designer is a fanatical idealist. I don't know why some people are so religious about the comparrison.
coldfish: I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?
Possibly, if the company in question is a commercial entity.
motorollin: I don't think Apple would care as long as they are selling hardware. The OS people choose to use on it is nothing to do with them.
I don't agree. Apple is far, far more aware of their brand image than most other PC companies. They can't do anything to the free software guys, but they get pissy when commercial companies move into their territory, even if it may increase hardware sales.
Besides, more and more, Apple is becoming a service-based company.
Put it another way: If Hyperion decided to port OS4 to Intel, would they have to pay Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, and all the other manufacturers of IBM Compatible hardware a license fee? I don't think so.
Define "IBM Compatible". ISA is long gone.
Modern PCs are based on open standards. Very few single companies can claim ownership of the platform, and many have contracts not to sue the pants off each other (Intel and AMD, for example). It's relatively easy to get hardware documentation. Even Macs are just PCs in a different box, though there's more weird stuff going on at the firmware level AFAIK.
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Waccoon wrote:
Yeah, but how many hardware platforms does Linux support?
How many does it support well? I have tried Linux on loads of systems and it is always a headache to get it working properly. I would prefer to buy in to a proprietary platform and OS and know that everything will work properly.
Waccoon wrote:
Can you run the latest OSX on a Mac that is 6+ years old?
Why would you want to?
Waccoon wrote:
Plus, high-level driver support is a joke. All you need is one bad driver to wipe out a system. Contrary to popular belief, Linux is no more immune to crashes than Windows if you have buggy drivers, and Linux has plenty of those.
My point exactly...
Waccoon wrote:
Never confuse "clean" with "sparse". Besides, Linux isn't clean by any standards. I'd be more fair to compare OSX to BSD, its parent. What has Apple done to improve BSD? Or, have they merely stripped out the stuff they think they don't need?
I fail to see the difference. The end result is a stable platform. Does it really matter exactly what they did to achieve that?
Waccoon wrote:
I tried to play a DVD, and I got one of those infamous "negative number" error messages. I tried to make a connection to my web server, and I got an error "-50". Great work on the usability front, Apple. Everyone knows negative numbers are the best way to handle unexpected results. It also locked up during the NFS connection, once I did figure out why I was getting "-50".
I really don't understand why you are getting problems like that. I have never had a message like that, and have been using Macs for several years.
Waccoon wrote:
I don't agree. Apple is far, far more aware of their brand image than most other PC companies. They can't do anything to the free software guys, but they get pissy when commercial companies move into their territory, even if it may increase hardware sales.
What can they do, legally, if a commercial entity decides to write and sell an OS for their hardware? My guess is nothing.
Waccoon wrote:
Define "IBM Compatible". ISA is long gone.
That's splitting hairs. I think you know full well that by "IBM Compatible" I mean any brand of PC which has evolved from the IBM model - IOW, any consumer board which will run Windows.
Waccoon wrote:
Modern PCs are based on open standards. It's relatively easy to get hardware documentation. Even Macs are just PCs in a different box, though there's more weird stuff going on at the firmware level AFAIK.
I don't think that's entirely relevant. The fact that PPC Linux runs on Macs means that it is possible to port an OS to Apple hardware. Why would OS4 be any different?
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moto
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motorollin wrote:
srg86 wrote:
Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.
Who cares? I'd much prefer to throw a slightly faster processor at the OS and end up with something stable (like MacOS) than have something supposedly less "messy" but runs like dog sh*t (like Windows).
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moto
Windows 2000 and XP have never run like dog sh*t for me, they are very stable and highly reliable. I've also never been infected with spyware or viruses.
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Windows 2000 and XP have never run like dog sh*t for me, they are very stable and highly reliable.
I can't argue with that.
I've also never been infected with spyware or viruses.
I can argue with that! You are accessing the internet are you? Even through NAT you cannot access many websites before you start picking up spyware/malware. :-(
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Colin_Camper wrote:
I can argue with that! You are accessing the internet are you? Even through NAT you cannot access many websites before you start picking up spyware/malware. :-(
All it needs is a good firewall (mine is in my router), decent antivirus (I use avast!) and don't look at attachments of e-mails from people you don't know.
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I must say I've not had a negative error number... or any obscure error in MacOS X, so far it's the most stable OS I've used... but then I don't do anything weird, just running a few professional apps (notably Logic Pro 7.2) and general computer use (Internet, Email, M$ Office etc...).
Windows XP, is a pretty good OS... but I've never had a Windows installation that hasn't needed a complete reinstall after about 12 to 18 Months... WinXP SP2 is sofar proving to be rather good though! Not stable enough for live music work though.
But for mission critical stuff, I stick to MacOS X.
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motorollin wrote:
coldfish wrote:
But Linux developers dont charge for the OS, Hyperion/Ainc etc would be wanting money for OS4, making it a commercial venture.
I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?
I don't think Apple would care as long as they are selling hardware. The OS people choose to use on it is nothing to do with them. I find it very hard to believe that Apple would charge developers a license fee for porting a commercial OS to their hardware.
Put it another way: If Hyperion decided to port OS4 to Intel, would they have to pay Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, and all the other manufacturers of IBM Compatible hardware a license fee? I don't think so.
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moto
This might enlight (http://www.beatjapan.org/mirror/www.be.com/support/qandas/faqs/faq-0408.html) you regarding Apple policy about giving away information about their mobo-design.
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@tomazkid
Thanks for the link. I can understand Apple not wanting to give away too much. After all, their business is selling hardware. If they give away too much information on the Macintosh hardware then clones may start popping up.
If you read my post a bit further down in this thread, I mention that Linux is already running on Apple hardware. My point there is that you don't necessarily need hardware documentation to port an OS. And if it can be done with Linux, I'm sure it can be done with OS4...
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moto
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neofree wrote:
...
I want a computer that has...
Does OS3.x do that?
Neofree
Os 3.x is not a computer.
What do you want - OS 3.x or an computer?
neofree wrote:
...modern browser, P2P software, video editing software that works with AVI (DivX, XviD), DVD, QuickTime, etc
Does OS3.x do that?
I'm afraid you won't be able to find any *OS* that does this (without additional software)...
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What can i say about this... Why switch system just due to lack of modern features on amiga, why not just use both systems? Well i own a few amigas that i use mainly for games cuz I love the old games and the older games are far more fun to play then modern games.. why you might woudner? well at this point game developers for manly PC is just focusing on one thin "eye candy" they just want all games to look good as hell and they dont mind that they spend so much budget opn that so they loose the gameplay that I loved in the oldest games, well ofcours I got a few pc's even a realy fast one with 4Ghz dual core amd processor and over 2 gig ram and 2 sli used graphicscards, well why do i ghave this computer? well its mainly for downloading games and movies and surfing the net but also used a bit for games but even due to I got a good computer dosent mean I will stop using the amiga I love them, they bring joy even till this day for me and many fun hours when i start to complete a old game i havent played for ages (recently played moonstone for a few days) and well malware and all kinds of spyware and crap that the internet is full of isent a reason to use mac instead of PC, why not? well easy use linux!! its not hard to learn and it got a great suport nowdays even able to play all modern games! but well you still can use a fully patched windows and spend acople of bucks on a good firewall and antivirus program and u never get any crap on it, I use windows XP and windows Vista on my main copmputer mainly and i have a payed licenced copy of Fsecure on it and I never have problems with spywares and malwares, just dummys get that that clicks around on every link on porno pages and if there comes a window with text they are stupid enough to press YES, so wella well protected PC works jsut fine on the internet on all pages. Ops just realized that ive written a long message about nothing lol but well tos horten it up i can say this, Keep your amiga for retro usage and buy a pc and either use Windows XP pro and a payed antivirusprogram and a firewall or just get linux.
//som99 :roll:
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Can you run the latest OSX on a Mac that is 6+ years old?
motorollin: Why would you want to?
Funny how people lambast Microsoft if the latest version of Windows won't work on such an old computer, but Mac people have no trouble buying brand new hardware all the time.
motorollin: I really don't understand why you are getting problems like that. I have never had a message like that, and have been using Macs for several years.
I've been using Macs since '95. I was also the system admin for a fleet of Macs at my college newspaper office. Oh, the horror stories I could tell -- especially about OS8. A clean install of that system was a non-stop crashfest. Just putting an audio CD in the drive caused a lock-up (the 8.1 "superpatch" released 6 months later finally fixed that).
Apple only puts effort into the stuff that matters to casual users. At the low-level, MacOS and OSX have always spit out tons of indecipherable error numbers.
Sorry, but I'm really sick of people telling me they have no problems with their Macs, but simply putting any DVD in the drive of my mini gave me "error -5862" or some similar crud, with no way to figure out what the problem was. After lots of google searches, I eventually found out that the problem was a region mis-configuration. My DVD region was set to 0 (unset), even though the machine is a US model. WTF? Was it just not initialized properly at the factory? According to several forums I've read, I'm not the only one that has had this problem.
I mean, how is it I can use an install of Windows for years at a time, get one BSOD every 6 months, and never get a virus, but my Mac mini crashes just by trying to make an NFS connection and I regularly get error messages I can't decode?
Colin Camper: I can argue with that! You are accessing the internet are you? Even through NAT you cannot access many websites before you start picking up spyware/malware.
I've been doing it for 10+ years with no problems. I've never, ever had a virus, and I don't have anti-virus software on my machine (well, OK, I install something about once a year to actually LOOK for stuff, but I never find anything).
Meanwhile, people ask me to repair their computers all the time, and all I find is spyware and viruses... and AOL. Everybody uses AOL and AIM! Blech!
Bottom line: you cannot hold the OS responsible for 3rd party software.
On this note, I find it interesting that people brag about security on UNIX. So long as an application (like a web browser) can access your Home folder, your data is at risk. It doesn't matter if you are running as root/administrator or not. The OS is replacable. Your data is not.
Moving on or not, the computer industry is not making much progress.
srg86: All it needs is a good firewall (mine is in my router), decent antivirus (I use avast!) and don't look at attachments of e-mails from people you don't know.
I have a NAT, and that's it. I've found that anti-virus software generally pokes around too much in kernel mode and will make your system unstable. Especially Norton. I don't trust any software that tries to protect me automatically.
I must say, though, that Outlook Express is pretty braindead when it comes to attachments, such as the infamous "file.doc {50 spaces} .pif"
bloodline: I've never had a Windows installation that hasn't needed a complete reinstall after about 12 to 18 Months...
Win95 was a nightmare. I had to re-install it every 3-6 months. My current system, Win2K, hasn't been re-installed in four years and I use it every day for both gaming and programming. Oh yeah, and with an Apache/MySQL combo in the background, it still boots in ~20 seconds.
My ex-boss just bought a new Prescott-based computer for his store, and it takes more than two minutes to boot up. It's a Hewlett Packard, loaded with background processes and Norton Internet Security. Need I say more?
I wonder how long it'll be before he calls me, asking me to re-install it. He didn't get the "backup CD" option, either, so it will only re-install by copying one hard drive partition onto another (another terrific, modern innovation. Ugh.)
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Waccoon wrote:
Funny how people lambast Microsoft if the latest version of Windows won't work on such an old computer, but Mac people have no trouble buying brand new hardware all the time.
Mac people have less of a need to keep purchasing new hardware. My lowest-end Mac (well, aside from my 7.8MHz Mac Plus (http://www.blakespot.com/macplus/)) is a iBook G3 700. I got it just over four years ago, in 2002. I have been on top of every release of OS X and every consecutive release has the machine running faster, more efficiently. It runs faster now than it did the day I bought it over four years ago.
It's a very different situation with Windows.
I've been using Macs since '95. I was also the system admin for a fleet of Macs at my college newspaper office. Oh, the horror stories I could tell -- especially about OS8. A clean install of that system was a non-stop crashfest. Just putting an audio CD in the drive caused a lock-up (the 8.1 "superpatch" released 6 months later finally fixed that).
Oh, I agree with you there. While the Mac OS was, early on, innovative as far as pioneering the desktop metaphor to the masses, the OS itself was weak. OS 9 on down's kernel is, in many ways, inferior to that of Windows 95.
Some of the machines I owned (http://www.blakespot.com/list) in the 80s and early 90s were Macs, but I stepped away to the PC - to NEXTSTEP for Intel v3.2 on a then $4500 486 66 setup. I did not come back to the Mac until NeXT took over Apple and announced that NEXTSTEP would be come the basis for Apple's operating systems.
Sorry, but I'm really sick of people telling me they have no problems with their Macs, but simply putting any DVD in the drive of my mini gave me "error -5862" or some similar crud, with no way to figure out what the problem was. After lots of google searches, I eventually found out that the problem was a region mis-configuration. My DVD region was set to 0 (unset), even though the machine is a US model. WTF? Was it just not initialized properly at the factory? According to several forums I've read, I'm not the only one that has had this problem.
This, I'll disagree with. I have an OS X kernel panic or other unexplained error a little less than once per year on my main machine (currently a dual G5 2.5 Mac). They happen so infrequently that my first reaction is that I must have had a hardware failure. I find that amusing, really.
I mean, how is it I can use an install of Windows for years at a time, get one BSOD every 6 months, and never get a virus, but my Mac mini crashes just by trying to make an NFS connection and I regularly get error messages I can't decode?
I am forced to reboot my work PC running XP SP2 about once every other day due to a lockup of one type or another.
At any rate, my main machines are that dual G5 2.5 w/ 30" Cinema (http://www.blakespot.com/images/g5_2560.jpg) and my somewhat new MacBook Pro 2GHz (http://www.maconintel.com/macbook_pro_pics/macbook_pro_head_on.jpg) (which runs NEXTSTEP (http://www.maconintel.com/news.php?article=179) just fine). I couldn't be happier or more productive, really.
Of course, I have a couple (http://www.blakespot.com/list/images/a2000.jpg) of Amigas (http://homepage.mac.com/blakespot/PhotoAlbum15.html) in the computer room (http://www.bytecellar.com/qtvr.html), as well. :-)
blakespot
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I'd pay $100 to get a beta version of AOS4 or MOS running on a Mac Mini.. legal that is.. supported by Hyperion or MOS Dev team.
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TheMagicM wrote:
I'd pay $100 to get a beta version of AOS4 or MOS running on a Mac Mini.. legal that is.. supported by Hyperion or MOS Dev team.
now _that's_ an idea
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blakespot wrote:
I am forced to reboot my work PC running XP SP2 about once every other day due to a lockup of one type or another.
blakespot
i havn't had to reboot once on my "browsing and chatting" machine since i installed xp...if anything buggers up, i can actually use task manager to end the process, and tadaa!
my windows 95 machine crashes and burns whenver something buggers up...
i've never had to reinstall windows xp on my computers for any reason but hard drive failiure...i've never gotten a virus (that's infected me) and i've never had spyware/adware (/me hugs spybot)...
i love HP computers...they come pre-installed with so much bollocks...and when you just msconfig all of them away, ppl are like what the hell did you do to it??!?!?! it runs a million times faster
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Waccoon wrote:
Sorry, but I'm really sick of people telling me they have no problems with their Macs,
And maybe we're sick of you whinging like a little kid every time that Macs get brought up in a thread.
If you really are having that many problems then please please please, for the love of god, please sell the {bleep}ing thing and be done with it.
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uncharted wrote:
Waccoon wrote:
Sorry, but I'm really sick of people telling me they have no problems with their Macs,
And maybe we're sick of you whinging like a little kid every time that Macs get brought up in a thread.
I'm curious how the errors are generated... I use my MacBook Pro for mission critical tasks, I'm very keen to know what to avoid that's going to cause problems!
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Colin_Camper wrote:
I can argue with that! You are accessing the internet are you? Even through NAT you cannot access many websites before you start picking up spyware/malware. :-(
I would like to be infected with malware - which web pages do I have to visit?
I use Win2k with no firewall (my computer is plugged straight into my cable-modem) and no anti-anything software whatsoever. The only malware I`ve ever been `infected` with is StarForce ;o)
I think all this talk about windows boxes being instantly swamped with insidious programmes within seconds of plugging in the ethernet is just bluster. I would be fascinated to be proven wrong though and I`m not fussed about having to reinstall windows if necessary...
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I think all this talk about windows boxes being instantly swamped with insidious programmes within seconds of plugging in the ethernet is just bluster.
Apparently it depends on the ISP. Some of them block certain things, others give out free trials for av/firewall software...
I think it would be excellent if MOS or OS4 were made to run on some cheap PPC Macs. That is the only situation under which I would be interested in using any of them, either MOS, OS4, or a Mac.
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http://www.smileycentral.com/
http://www.doubleclick.com/
Surf those for a bit on your unprotected Windows box.
Also google some fun stuff like:
"Free wallpaper"
"Free smilies"
For some detail on some of the better rootkit spyware that will really get your system ready for a good FDISKing look up "Cool Web Search"
*EDIT*
Oh, don't forget a really nice peer to peer file sharing application from Kazaa:
http://www.kazaa.com/
It installs spyware that's actually required for it to run. When you run Ad-Aware or Spybot (Insert fave cleaning program) etc on it and remove the spyware and Kazaa will say "A critical component for this program to run is missing, click here to reinstall it."
Have fun infecting, and I would advise anyone that gets an Email from this guy over the next month to filter it to the trash can. :crazy:
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I think all this talk about windows boxes being instantly swamped with insidious programmes within seconds of plugging in the ethernet is just bluster. I would be fascinated to be proven wrong though and I`m not fussed about having to reinstall windows if necessary...
A few years back I'd just reinstalled XP for some reason, connected to the Internet to download some security updates (I think I needed to get updates for my firewall and anti-virus as well.) Within 10 minutes I had a virus. I think it was "mydoom" (it was the one that brings up a message telling you that you have 60 seconds before the computer reboots with no way to stop it - barely enough time to find a solution!)
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Gojirax wrote:
http://www.smileycentral.com/
http://www.doubleclick.com/
Surf those for a bit on your unprotected Windows box.
Also google some fun stuff like:
"Free wallpaper"
"Free smilies"
For some detail on some of the better rootkit spyware that will really get your system ready for a good FDISKing look up "Cool Web Search"
*EDIT*
Oh, don't forget a really nice peer to peer file sharing application from Kazaa:
http://www.kazaa.com/
It installs spyware that's actually required for it to run. When you run Ad-Aware or Spybot (Insert fave cleaning program) etc on it and remove the spyware and Kazaa will say "A critical component for this program to run is missing, click here to reinstall it."
Have fun infecting, and I would advise anyone that gets an Email from this guy over the next month to filter it to the trash can. :crazy:
Right on, I`ve had a look through but it seems to need you to click things mostly to fall for them. I guess that`s it though, some people just click and don`t think. Same with Kazaa, it`s there in the eula if you look. I was thinking more about stuff that insinuates itself with no interaction from the user at all.
By the way, don`t worry about me being a typhoid Mary as I`ve got an install on an old 1Gb drive that I`ve been using for this `experiment`.
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The problem is that not everyone has XP SP2 or anti-virus or anti-spyware software to protect you from this crap. Those sites in particular were often cause for telephone calls to the helpdesks I used to work at. Fact is that 91% of google.com users are Windows, but only 40% are Windows XP users! There are TONS of people who are still running Windows 95, 98, Me, with NO updates, NO protection. Think about this. How many people can only get dialup in their area and have never installed an update to their OS? TONS, I run into it regularly with my work. Companies like CompUSA, Geeks on Call, etc. that offer tech services make a killing just cleaning viruses and spyware off peoples machines because they dont keep up to date. It's a matter of stupidity sure, but not that they are being warned, they think they are using something that's OK and have no warning because they dont secure their machines. An Amiga, Mac, Linux user can be stupid like this and have less chance of virus and spyware.
Thanks,
Neofree
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ah yes, free smilys and wallpapers, who could live without?
I'll download some of that BS to my machine right after I drink out of the Susquehanna river.