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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: TazzyUK on June 07, 2006, 10:24:50 PM
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If i wanted to get a decent spec AGA machine (as i have an Amiga 3000!) what would the best route as far as availability of parts and cost!
So either get an Amiga 4000, which is already high spec ( 68030/40/60 ) has built in HD and maybe even upgrade it more on ram, cpu, HD etc
or
get a 1200, upgrade to HD, higher cpu (68030/40/60) through accelerator, more ram etc
So whats the best route??
Taz
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How much $$$ do you have? :lol:
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The dough is an important factor...that's clear but it's also important what you plan to use the Amiga for.
If you don't plan to do anything but play games and use programs that doesn't need high res screens an A1200 is the best choice IMHO
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There is no budget and It would be an ongoing project as
expenditure would not be big and certainly not in one go!!
Just getting the parts as I went along. This way I could source out the bits and choose the best kit.
Towering a 1200 seems to Intrigue me. I like the idea
and would be pretty chuffed with the finished project.
(especially with light mods, 'boing' symbol etched on the case window etc)
Taz
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But with a 'upgraded' 1200....hires screens/wb would be no problem!!??.
Games would not be the priority!!
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Expensive ---> expanding an A1200
Very Expensive ---> expanding an A4000
:-)
Theoretical top A4000 configuration is always considerably faster than a theoretical top A1200 one, but from personal experience I have to admit that playing around, building, and configuring an A1200T system is more fun simply due to the whole hacky factor. :-)
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Just so I know - what are the theoretical top a1200 and a4000 configurations?
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I think going from A3000 to A1200 or A4000 is a downgrade. If you dont play games you could get just a gfx card.
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BenShep wrote:
Just so I know - what are the theoretical top a1200 and a4000 configurations?
If you compare the best accelerator card (by the factory specs), the contest is already over.
Blizzard PPC 603e+ for A1200 vs Cyberstorm PPC for A4000.
BPPC can be as good as a 68060@50Mhz on the 68k side and 240Mhz on the PPC side (603e CPU). It can have a Fast SCSI-2 controller on it which can work at 10MB/s speed (theoretical limit). Its scsi chain can detect 8 devices in total (including the controller).
CSPPC can be as good as a 68060@50Mhz on the 68k side and 233Mhz on the PPC side (604e CPU, about 60% faster than 603e per clock, IIRC). It always comes with a UW-SCSI-3 controller which can work at 40MB/s speed (theoretical limit). Its scsi chain can detect 16 devices in total (including the controller).
I think that this would be the main reason of why A3000 and A4000 are faster and a little better overall than A1200, however there are also other reasons to list, such as the ability to have Zorro III slots with DMA and not being limited to 8MB Zorro II memory window with Mediator PCI cards, which is a major pain in the arse with A1200 Mediators.
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The A4000 would be a better choice if your going to expand it. the A4000 has ZoroIII slots and are faster. The onboard IDE interface in the 4000 is also faster.
Just to add to what has already been posted,
What do you want out of the Amiga? are you just playing games if so the A1200 would do you just fine. The Cyberstorm for the A4000 is a supper eccelerator and with SCSI its even better these are pricy as they are tough to find where the Blizzerd for the 1200 is easeyer to find and thus costs less.
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Hi,
You mentioned that games are not a priority, so why would you like to have AGA? A graphics card will give you much nicer Workbenches, and you've already got an SD/FF.
The 4000 has the option of fitting a Toaster system. They sometimes sell for very low prices these days. I think there are many more options for graphics cards as well (though some of those options might be rare as hen's teeth, and not really all that great). If you want to do real work on the machine, the HD throughput can be a big factor too.
I don't know what the situation is like in the UK, but in Aus, 1200's are much more common than 4000's, and dirt cheap by comparison. Accelerators are more plentiful too.
I'm not sure what the situation is with PPC's on older these machines, but I'm under the impression that they are not actually used for bery much? Can anyone correct me on this? I think most software only takes advantage of whatever 68k is available. I've never used one though, so check this point. However, I think the difference between using a PPC on a 1200, and a PPC on a 4000 will not significantly affect the overall experience.
edit- Occaisionally I've liked to port my 1200 around, to use on the road, or just to plug it in to a friend's TV etc. This is one good point of a wedge. Some people still use them for gigging. I've never done that though. In the good old days, the 1200 was considered a reliable gigging sequencer, as PC's were famous for failing once they filled up with smoke in a club.
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If it were me, I'd go the A4000 route, but there are many pros and cons mentioned in this thread about each computer.
The A1200 is a nice little machine, with various upgrades available. Accelerators are easier to get hold of compared to A4000, but if the goal is to get a 060 accelerator in it, I don't think this conclusion is bullet proof. The downside of the A1200 is that you can not add a graphics card to it, unless you tower and use some sort of busboard.
While towerising, you'll need a keyboard adaptor, and none of them are actually any good. The one I have in my A1200T can not have multiple keypresses, and that is very annoying when playing games. Since games isn't your thing, it's not an issue for you, but might be worth to have into consideration for other planning to do the same.
The A4000 have problems with leaking batteries, that can wreck the board. So can leaking capacitors. Accelerators are more expensive, but on the other hand you can add graphics card, ethernet card, sound card, USB card, etc, straight away and without towerising. Unfortunately, the Zorro cards are a bit pricy. If you'd like to towerise the machine, it's also possible of course, however a new Zorro busboard would be ideal, but not a requirement.
Regarding x56h34s comparison of the BPPC vs CSPPC I would like to add that the BPPC can have 256 MB of fast ram, while the CSPPC can have 128 MB of fast ram. IIRC the ram on the BPPC is 16 bit, while 32 bit on the CSPPC (or am I confused, it's early in the morning)
As others have pointed out; if you aren't going to play games, why go AGA? Demos maybe?
Anyway, most A4000 accelerators can work in the A3000 as well, so if it should be an ongoing projekt, you can get the A3000 upgraded a bit (unless it is already high spec??), buy the A4000 and switch over the accelerators of you want the A4000 to be the main Amiga.
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Hold on hold on..Are you saying I can add the AGA chipset to my A3000?...via a gfx card?
I dont want to 'PC-it'. I want it to be an Amiga!.
Why?
Well..after getting my A3000 down from the attic and having a mess, getting nostalgic etc, I have decided I want an Amiga system once again.
(a) I had NO IDEA of how much support, advise, enthusiasm, pride etc that these machines still generate. I was amazed in fact.
(b) I remember it being a fun machine and that I put hundreds, if not thousands of hours into messing with graphics, playing games, listening to music etc
(c) I was pretty INTO my Amiga way back then and feel somewhat of a SH!T just bunging it up in the attic and getting a PC, like dumping an old failthful girlfriend and not giving any commitment!
Anyone understand that? (with regards to amigas I mean, not GF's!)
(d) It's strange..I was creative on the Amiga, put loads of hours into my gfx projects, got loads of satisfaction out the work I put in..but on the PC, I havn't done much atall!!
So in answer to 'What will I be using it for?'..I want it to be an Amiga for a start...because I thoroughly enjoyed the machine when I did have one!
I still want to do more gfx on it, maybe even using the same software I did before. Yes maybe play the odd game but that will be secondary
I certainly dont need another PC..I have 2 here (3 in fact!) that are networked to eachother and the one is a decent spec (has to be for BF2, GRAW, COD etc).
and soppy as it sounds..i want to be a Proud Amiga Owner....once again.
I like the 'community spirit' that surrounds the Amiga owners and their machines of which they are proud of.
Unlike many a PC website, I havent seen anyone slag or flame anyone else...on any Amiga website (maybe it's early days!)
so theres my reasons, stupid as it sounds!
Taz
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Well, you don't really give any reason for why it should be AGA, so why bother with an A1200 or A4000 when you already have a computer that is capable of the same as an A4000, and by many users seen as the best Amiga ever made?
And no, you can't install AGA in the A3000. The graphics card will only give you the possibility to run your Workbench screen in 1024 x 768 for instance (and free up valuable chip mem).
No matter what you do to your Amiga (well, except from installing a PC emulator card) it will never be a PC.
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If money isn't a worry, then the A4000 is your friend.
You'll have a lot less compatibility and reliability errors with an A4000, as well as a lot more to expand phsyically (though if you get a tower that doesn't matter anyway).
With an A4000 you know your Zorro III slots will work perfectly, your CPU will be more reliable with the extra cooling, specially if you're going the PPC route (which I strongly recommend - get the 604e@200, 68060@50 CSPPC if you can as the 233 is a little less reliable I think), and from what I've seen they just hold together better.
Of course I'm biased - but you're not having my A4000. :) Nonetheless I still say A4000 every time.
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doctorq wrote:
If it were me, I'd go the A4000 route, but there are many pros and cons mentioned in this thread about each computer.
IIRC the ram on the BPPC is 16 bit, while 32 bit on the CSPPC (or am I confused, it's early in the morning)
I believe the CSPPC's memory is set up for 64-bit addressing for the 604 chip while the BPPC is only 32-bit as the 603 chip can only address 32-bit memory. So the Blizz gives you more memory but the CSPPC is the faster implementation.
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Argus wrote:
doctorq wrote:
If it were me, I'd go the A4000 route, but there are many pros and cons mentioned in this thread about each computer.
IIRC the ram on the BPPC is 16 bit, while 32 bit on the CSPPC (or am I confused, it's early in the morning)
I believe the CSPPC's memory is set up for 64-bit addressing for the 604 chip while the BPPC is only 32-bit as the 603 chip can only address 32-bit memory. So the Blizz gives you more memory but the CSPPC is the faster implementation.
That's right guys. I forgot to mention this advantage of the CSPPC as well.
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I think using a 4000 with a good graphics card would be a good option for you if you want to do image generation/processing with it. A graphics card will not turn the machine into a PC. It will turn it into a better Amiga: more pride for you. The Picasso IV would probably be a good choice, as it has a great on-board scandoubler/flickerfixer, which will allow you to use all your native video modes in their full glory.
Is your 3000 not functional now? Is that the reason for wanting another machine? As mentioned before, the 3000 really is a very capable machine. I've used a 3000 for paint progs, 3D modelling, writing music, games, word processing, mathematical modelling, spread sheets, etc. All very impressive in the day, and still usable now.
You also mentioned flaming and slagging: unfortunately there is a bit of that around here, but really not much. Generally, the people here are more than enthusiastic to help, and there really is an impressive wealth of knowledge in amongst the forum members here (I'm not talking of myself here).
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doctorq wrote:
While towerising, you'll need a keyboard adaptor, and none of them are actually any good. The one I have in my A1200T can not have multiple keypresses, and that is very annoying when playing games.
Is that the case for ALL keyboard adapters? Why is this? Maybe I should design a new one. Is there any particular reason for this? Is it just a case of cutting corners, and keeping things simple?
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Is that the case for ALL keyboard adapters? Why is this? Maybe I should design a new one. Is there any particular reason for this? Is it just a case of cutting corners, and keeping things simple?
The only keyboard adaptor I have heard of which doesn't have this multiple keypresses problem is the Lyra. I haven't tried it myself, so can't confirm it.
I haven't bought a Lyra adaptor myself, because it apparently can only take PC keyboards, and I would like to use my Amiga keyboards.
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@Taz
What do you want your Classic Amiga for?
Is space a premium in your home?
Do you use a monitor with your Amiga?
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I would say that 99% of Retro-Gaming users would be satisfied with:
A1200 Desktop
68030@50MHz with 32-Meg RAM + SCSI module
2.5" IDE hard drive
SCSI CD-ROM
PCMCIA ethernet card
Optional Scandoubler / LCDTV
It takes up very little room, very portable, just sling it next to the TV in the livingroom!
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As you already have an A3000 (without gfx), you like it and you just want to go "AGA" then:
A4000D 2Mbyte Chip / 16Mbyte Fast
68040@25MHz+ (Perferably one that takes SIMMS)
3.5" IDE drive
IDE DVD-ROM
Optional GFX card (preferably with scandoubler) / LCDTV
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I think you could be happy enough with a cheap A4000D to be able to sell your A3000 to help fund the purchase.
Remember that the A3000 has a built in AMBER de-interlacer / Scandoubler and that an A1200 or A4000 will either need a scandoubler or a gfx card to work with a normal monitor. HOWEVER it can be cheaper to buy a new portable LCDTV with RGB SCART input.
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doctorq wrote:
Is that the case for ALL keyboard adapters? Why is this? Maybe I should design a new one. Is there any particular reason for this? Is it just a case of cutting corners, and keeping things simple?
The only keyboard adaptor I have heard of which doesn't have this multiple keypresses problem is the Lyra. I haven't tried it myself, so can't confirm it.
I can confirm that the Revanche LLC RAKA does not have any problem with multiple keypresses.
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Its not just higher resolutions I want, its also higher colour palette. The AGA chipset gives you a higher palette to play with, does it not?
Offering 256 colour mode, a new ham mode and 24 bit palette
Also I would like to try some projects on the AGA version of Deluxe Paint (also some 3d software)
Also possibly transferring images files from Amiga to PC.
Did they ever do a Deluxe Paint v ?
So does this 'requirement' change what is the best option?
Well expanded 1200 or slightly expanded 4000?
(That MINT 4000 on Ebay (reserve £300) looks tempting but car has to go in the garage very soon...shame!)
TazzyUK
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TazzyUK wrote:
(That MINT 4000 on Ebay (reserve £300) looks tempting but car has to go in the garage very soon...shame!)
TazzyUK
Its only in Brighton, catch the train.., just "Borrow" a local shopping Center trolley :)
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With a graphics card in the A3000 you will be able to have up to 24 bit resolutions (maybe even 32, can't remember).
Transfering files from Amiga to PC and the other way around is possible with every Amiga.
The only thing you will not be able to do with your A3000 is the AGA stuff you want to do.
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Anyway, a good graphics card will give you better performance with high colour depth and resolutions. As far as I know, the AGA chipset aint that good at doing 24 bit graphics. In terms of graphics capabilities, you don't really miss out on much by just sticking a good graphics card in your 3000. Generally, graphics cards are able to surpass the performance of the AGA chipset, only they won't do tasks which are specifically written for AGA. I think if you got a 4000 with a graphics card, you probably wouldn't actually use the AGA chipset much. I haven't had this experience myself, but I have compared my 1200's AGA graphics capabilities with my friend's 3000+Gfx card. I just stopped doing graphics work on mine, and used his instead.
Does anyone here own a 4000+GFX card, who could comment on this? Do you actually take advantage of the AGA chipset, or just use the card?
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Does anyone here own a 4000+GFX card, who could comment on this? Do you actually take advantage of the AGA chipset, or just use the card?
I have graphics cards in all my A4000s, so I hardly use native Amiga video outputs. Only when a game needs it, but I'm still hoping for GFX card support in WHDLoad :-)
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Lets say I decide to stick with the A3000, whats a decent GFX card for the A3000 (and are they that available??) and can you get one that doubles up as an accelerator card?
Thanks
Taz
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I would go for the a4k more easy to get a stable system that way i have done to many soldering fixes on 1200 mobos for it to be stable simply not the easyest part also psu problems compared to the a4k.. And when you buy a a4k you all ready have good room for hds no need to buy nev tower at first. As i have noticed with the 1200 the more hardware hacks you install the harder it is to get the system stable..
While towerising, you'll need a keyboard adaptor, and none of them are actually any good
The lyra is exelent due to my opinion ony adapter worth mentioning everything else is garbage yes and i have had near them all..
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Would any of the fairly good paint programs take advantage of a GFX card?......like DPIV, Brilliance etc
Taz
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IIrc
DPaint iv can be used via mediator and voodoo3, however you have to select an 8-bit mode rather than a 16- or 24-, otherwise you cannot see anything (everything appears black).
I believe the program still opens, but with such a large colour palette that the default colours of screen, status bar, fonts, etc are indistiguishable near-black shades of grey.
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Deluxe Paint V, Personal Paint and TV Paint work with gfx cards.
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I see another Amiga 4000 has come onto Ebay
68040/25
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Amiga-A4000-68040-Cybervision-Ethernet-SCSI_W0QQitemZ8826902368QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Same chap selling the 'AmigaOne and A1200 Blizzard PPC both in Eyetech Tower'
Wow..BUY IT NOW £999
The previous MINT A4000 one still hasnt hit the reserve of £300
All these beefy Amiga floating around!