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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: iamaboringperson on June 07, 2006, 02:44:53 AM
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*It doesn't use memory protection.
*It doesn't take advantage of SMP.
*It isn't multi-user.
*It doesn't go 64-bit eventually
It would also be nice if it had a half-decent web-browser and office suite.
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AROS has no chance in the future for what?
It seems to me that AROS is (or has surpassed)mostly what it was suppposed to be.
So ,I'm just not sure that I'm buying what you are saying above. My A1000, A2000, A500, A1200, A600 doesn't have these features and yet I am still using them as are others. I also find AROS to be interesting and useful (although not in a Windows XP kind of way).
So please clarify your perspective on what you think the AROS is supposed to be. I just don't want to come away feeling that you'll be telling me that Commodore is going to shut their doors and never build another computer ;-)
Regards,
AmigaEd
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*It doesn't use memory protection.
Michal is currently working on that for his x86_64 kernel.
*It doesn't go 64-bit eventually
Michal is working on it currently. I hope to see him commit it to the AROS SVN within 60 days. The bounty he is work on can be viewed here (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=21).
*It doesn't take advantage of SMP.
x86_64 kernel first, SMP can wait a bit longer (that and if Michal is willing, got to get a Athlon-64 2X CPU for him to develope on). Good news is, the modular x86_64 kernel will be a major step towards SMP.
*It isn't multi-user.
Some basic steps have started on this issue. I really don't see this moving forward until after Michal's x86_64 kernel is released and backported to x86 kernel. There are issues of those wanting multi-user enviroment (I'm one of those) and those who want single user enviroment so it's going to be a compromise between the two at the end of the day. Fortunetly for AROS, it has some very clever developers who can find that compromise. :-)
Dammy
TeamAROS (http://www.teamaros.org)
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@AmigaEd
You're a preexisting user.
What I mean is, AROS in comptetion, and AROS gaining new users.
I can't say that AROS has a definite future (in the computing world), when I'm only considering current AmigaOS, MorphOS, and AROS users.
Remember back when the Amiga had all sorts of music, television, and movie industry users?
That doesn't seem to be something that's going to happen again.
It's not going to win over any new users. In other words, it's strictly an Amiga/Alternative OS hobbiest(sp?) OS.
And that's how it will probably remain.
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Some basic steps have started on this issue. I really don't see this moving forward until after Michal's x86_64 kernel is released and backported to x86 kernel. There are issues of those wanting multi-user enviroment (I'm one of those) and those who want single user enviroment so it's going to be a compromise between the two at the end of the day. Fortunetly for AROS, it has some very clever developers who can find that compromise.
I've been thinking about that part for years.
I wouldn't mind getting involved in the MU stuff in the future. :-)
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@iamaboringperson
You're a preexisting user.
Aha, I'd been trying to figure out my species for sometime now. :lol:
more seriously, O.k. now I know where you are comming from on tyour post and I agree with what you said above... Sadly, it probably is how it will remain.
Regards
AmigaEd
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iamaboringperson wrote:
*It doesn't use memory protection.
*It doesn't take advantage of SMP.
*It isn't multi-user.
*It doesn't go 64-bit eventually
It would also be nice if it had a half-decent web-browser and office suite.
You can add to that list:
*It does not integrate 68k/full Kickstart emulation.
Using original programs within UAE just does not cut it for me.
I'd like to run my old programs without having to track down the source code, rewriting portions of that code and crossing my fingers as it recompiles in hopes that it will work under AROS.
This is the main reason why I have stayed away from it (no offense, I've used AROS and think it's great, but if it can't run legacy software in its original binary form, then its inability to exploit the Amiga's vast software library really makes it unattractive to me).
I'm in the "wait n see" stage right now concerning AROS.
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UAE<->AROS Bounty (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=7) and kickstart phase 1 (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=23) and 2 (http://thenostromo.com/teamaros2/?number=24) are open to either (old or new) developers or cash. Unlike the other alternatives Amiga-like OSs, AROS isn't going to sell you squat. AROS is a front loaded community support, there is no back loading (ie you pay after the product is ready) via computers and OS that you MUST buy to use AROS.
Dammy
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Okay, it has several things going for it..
1) It's FREE to download
2) It's FREE to download
3) I am not getting charged for things it doesn't have
4) Did I mention it's free??
5) See the logo by my name, it runs great on that CPU and faster than Windows or an Intel Mac (and seems to crash less)
6) Wait did I say it's free to download ;-)
When are the Amiga folk here gonna part with their software from the 1980s?? If I bought an Amiga today it still can't directly run most classic software without UAE because they don't have the custom chips... Run UAE and anything runs decently.. That's true of current "Amiga" hardware too, same problem..
No memory protection I generally don't need it, AROS stuff doesn't crash like the 68K amiga did in general..
Oh this is my favorite one, it doesn't support symetric multiprocessing, well let's see if I run it HOSTED from Windows or LINUX with QEMU or Virtual PC or heaven for bid the 64 bit implementation of Microsoft Virtual Server 2005 (a free download right now at microsoft.com), I can assign either CPU to the virtual machine and it's still speedy, and it's like having TWO Amy's in front of me (but much more current and faster)..
I have a 64-bit processor (actually I have a few of them ;-) and I still love aros, it is floppy bootable, it just runs. Yeah the software is skimpy but complaining it doesn't have a good web browser is LAUGHABLE because I can't find one on the platform anyway (but I digress typing this entry in 64-bit IE 7)..
Office suite? Word Processor before printer drivers I suppose :-) Anyway, on x86 hardware you can boot any OS and run free Open office even from a live CD.. Or heaven forbid Office 2007 in free beta right now. Gotta love that..
68K emulation is a waste of time when everything runs from within UAE anyway and it's not that much of a pain to set up or use once you have floppys moved to disk image. I had to do it but I don't even use a FLOPPY anymore so it doesn't matter..
I have a great number of Amiga library programs that work great inside of AROS and any machine running UAE.. I would rather put my old machine away than let it die in use..
The reality of this is x86 hardware is cheap. You can have a fully functional aros box and monitor for a couple hundred dollars right now. I guarantee it's faster than your old machine and when you move your old floppies over to images they work so much faster stored on a hard drive or memory stick...
I think you should reconsider how much fun you'd have with old and new software especially running it on ultra cool cheap hardware with sound and graphics processing that you can't touch with your old hardware..
So much of the software library from the public domain has already been ported to AROS that it just doesn't make sense to say you are gonna have to sit and recompile especially from the end user perspective.
-Don
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iamaboringperson wrote:
*It doesn't use memory protection.
*It doesn't take advantage of SMP.
*It isn't multi-user.
*It doesn't go 64-bit eventually
It would also be nice if it had a half-decent web-browser and office suite.
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You can add to that list:
*It does not integrate 68k/full Kickstart emulation.
Using original programs within UAE just does not cut it for me.
I'd like to run my old programs without having to track down the source code, rewriting portions of that code and crossing my fingers as it recompiles in hopes that it will work under AROS.
This is the main reason why I have stayed away from it (no offense, I've used AROS and think it's great, but if it can't run legacy software in its original binary form, then its inability to exploit the Amiga's vast software library really makes it unattractive to me).
I'm in the "wait n see" stage right now concerning AROS.
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AROS needs to
* Slice
* Dice
* Juice
* Purée
* Remove tough and stubborn stains
* Make my hair lush with it's patented conditioning technology
Without these I'm not going to even think about touching AROS.
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I think I am going to go give AROS a shot. Heard about it awhile, and its great that someone is working on it. I dont have high expectations and can careless if it runs older Amiga software. Thats why its best to own hardware which games are meant to run under. :-)
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nagaflas wrote:
iamaboringperson wrote:
*It doesn't use memory protection.
*It doesn't take advantage of SMP.
*It isn't multi-user.
*It doesn't go 64-bit eventually
It would also be nice if it had a half-decent web-browser and office suite.
You can add to that list:
*It does not integrate 68k/full Kickstart emulation.
Using original programs within UAE just does not cut it for me.
I'd like to run my old programs without having to track down the source code, rewriting portions of that code and crossing my fingers as it recompiles in hopes that it will work under AROS.
This is the main reason why I have stayed away from it (no offense, I've used AROS and think it's great, but if it can't run legacy software in its original binary form, then its inability to exploit the Amiga's vast software library really makes it unattractive to me).
I'm in the "wait n see" stage right now concerning AROS.
Iama was refering to AROS having a future, not about it's ability to live in the past... The concerns he raised were legitimate, since these are standard features of a medern operating sytem.
It's now well over a decade since any serious software was made for the Amiga platform, and any software that I might want to use hits the hardware... in which case I would use UAE or a real Amiga anyway. If the software doesn't hit the hardware, the chances are that the source code is in C and still exists in the hands of an active developer... who would do well to compile it for AROS.
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Just going to add my two pence. I tried an AROS live CD for the first time on Monday and was quite frankly blown away. I see AROS at the moment as at a similar stage to Linux in the early days: a growing band of loyal supporters and developers, a desire to make a better use of all this abundant, cheap and fast hardware, a lot of work still to be done but for those in the know a growing excitement about the possibilities it has for the future. We need more developers on board, more publicity, more ports. I urge you all, at the very least, to try the live CD.
I'm becoming more and more convinced this is the very best opportunity the Amiga has. Out of the hands of business, into the hands of the users and fans.
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uncharted wrote:
AROS needs to
* Slice
* Dice
* Juice
* Purée
* Remove tough and stubborn stains
* Make my hair lush with it's patented conditioning technology
Without these I'm not going to even think about touching AROS.
Probably not what you intended, but it does rather sum up the situation. From a user's PoV - as opposed to someone who wants to develop for AROS - AROS is still where it was several years ago. It doesn't really want to be part of a legacy bridge from an emulated system to a native one, but at the same time it is too primitive and unsupported to stand up as an OS in its own right. Every few months I'll take a look at it, play with it for 5-10 minutes, run our of things to do, and forget about it for another six months.
I mean how many people use AROS as their primary OS? How many people who are not in some way connected with developing something or other for it use it at all?
I've never quite understood what AROS is trying to be. Is it just a "Research Project"? If so, it has probably exceeded its goals because it was never supposed to be of any interest to anyone except the researchers. OTOH, if it has pretentions of being a general purpose OS aimed at users, it does fall rather a long way short and isn't fit to be mentioned in the same breath as AmigaOS4 or MorphOS. I can't help but notice that the things AROS needs to support before poeple are (rightly) willing to treat it seriously is growing faster than the actual development can keep up with, thus giving the impression that AROS development is treading water at best.
I want to like AROS, I really do, yet I can't shake off the feeling that it's just a geek's toy gizmo - one of those things you play around with fascinated for a few minutes before you realise it serves no purpose and forget about it. It's like AROS, as a project, is afraid to set itself any overall practical goals in case it fails to reach them. If you have no aims, no schedule, no roadmap, make no promises and state no concrete purpose you can't fail, right? Unfortunately it also means you can't succeed and you end up just drifting aimlessly while patting yourself on the back for not letting anyone down.
Despite all this I still harbour a secret hope that one day, preferably before I'm too old and senile to notice, AROS will manage to break that 10-minute barrier in holding my attention span. At the moment, that day seems no closer.
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Once AROS has more applications it will easily break the 10 minute barrier, i know this will happen but the more people who get involved the better.
One of AROS's strengths is the fact it isnt owned by amiga inc. with aros everyone is free to contribute and use it, its very refreshing considering Amiga OS 4 being so tied down to licenceing crap.
AROS has been around for years, since the dark days of commodores bankrupcy, i do recall reading it was once called Amiga Replacement Operating System. maybe once it has reached an even greater level of maturity the R can be changed to another R word.
Most amiga software is nearly 10 years old! and very few applications are being developed at the moment, so i see no reason why some sort of binary compatability is a must, aros was never intended to work as such, Its Amiga OS for a new world.
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10 years old software is better than no software.
My comment on another thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=22215)
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*It isn't multi-user.
ER!!! My computers are PERSONAL COMPUTERS so unless i have multiple personality i find multiuser support a waste of computer resources.NO NO y NO!! i want a personal multimedia centric OS and not a Multiuser OS.I hate, I repeat I HATE multiuser OS´s :-x
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nadoom wrote:
Once AROS has more applications it will easily break the 10 minute barrier, i know this will happen but the more people who get involved the better.
That's the crux though isn't it? This has been the case for the last four or five years.
I really don't think the "build it and they will come" philosophy holds water any more. You can't easily port from the biggest resource of open source material, *nix, and while it may be easier to port Amiga native applications to it, the vast majority of the Amiga tradition has been for closed source and the source for most applications isn't available. So that's not a solution either. Considering the small number of developers and large number of developments still needed, waiting for native AROS apps to be developed isn't realistic either.
It's no good telling poeple they should get involved. You need to make them want to get involved, make it practical for them to get involved. Bounties only go part way, but real development won't happen until after you attract more people, and for that you need to break the 10-minute barrier first. IMHO until someone decides to do something concrete about addressing that problem, AROS will never get enough support and developers to break the barrier.
I've just read some of the relevant threads on AROS-Exec, and on the whole I can't say they sound encouraging.
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I think Team AROS should pull a Red Hat and become a solutions provider.
The OS can remain open source.
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I've tried the AROS live CD, and enjoyed it, but also only for about 10 minutes. I really liked the responsiveness of the Workbench (is it called that?). Slow bloatware has always bugged me. When I buy a powerful machine, I want to feel that power.
However, when thinking of OS's designed for speed, BeOS also comes to mind. It seems that the open source Be (Haiku) is coming along fairly well, and there's a moderately well supported commercial version from YellowTab. Is there anyone who's tried both AROS and BeOS, and is able to give a comparison? Does AROS have an advantage somewhere?
I've always liked the idea of AROS, but if its only hook is that it's Amigan, then where does it sit amongst the choices? It seems good so far, but why would a user or developer choose it above, say, Haiku?
Please understand, I'm not meaning to be disparaging, but rather just thinking 'aloud'.
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Well no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to use AROS. You don't have to make any form of comitment to try it out... well, maybe a CD-R. If you try it and you like, great! if you try it and you don't like it, great, use something else!
I don't think that any of the Amigoid OS's have much of a "future"... and certainly, now MacOSX is running on sensible hardware, I doubt any OS is ever going to be able to keep up.
What the Amigoids do have, is a place in the hobby market... however one chooses to go about their hobby is up to them. I prefer not to spend 1000s of pound to support my computing hobby, I like it to be an off shoot of my personal and work related computing work. Only AROS can fill that role for me (and quite a few others)... thus it has a future!
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AROS has a lot better future than OS4 ever will. HYPEDUPrion should have spent their wasted Amiga Inc lapdog years on AROS and made it the way OS4 is now, plus everyone involved with AROS gets total freedom unlike OS4.
AROS is the only TRUE thing left in Amigaland worth supporting.
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bloodline wrote:
Well no one is holding a gun to anyone's head and forcing them to use AROS.
No, but that's hardly the point. What I am saying - and have been for some years - is that during this time AROS will only keep people's attention for more than 10 minutes if they intend to make a commitment to develop for it. Everyone else just thinks "Yeah, nice, let me know when it's ready for actual use."
It hard to see when AROS will move beyond that stage, and it's not even entirely clear it wants to move beyond that stage.
So at the moment it's only a hobbyist solution for those developing it. For ordinary users it's more like a curiosity, to be checked out periodically in case it has made any noticeable progress. I don't think that's an unfair comment or a particularly uncommon one given how things stand.
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Savan wrote:
AROS has a lot better future than OS4 ever will. HYPEDUPrion should have spent their wasted Amiga Inc lapdog years on AROS and made it the way OS4 is now, plus everyone involved with AROS gets total freedom unlike OS4.
AROS is the only TRUE thing left in Amigaland worth supporting.
Yeah, but ideology aside, what are the practical benefits? What has it got over SkyOS, or Syllable or Haiku/Zeta, or one of the Linux mini-distros, aside from the nominal Amiga connection?
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*It does not integrate 68k/full Kickstart emulation.
That is not possible due to the legal issues. Though i sure as hell would like some emulation myself, atleast something similar tothe JIT emulator that OS4 uses.
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That is not possible due to the legal issues.
What legal issues? Emulation is not illegal, MorphOS has all that and it's perfectly legal.
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Yeah, but ideology aside, what are the practical benefits? What has it got over SkyOS, or Syllable or Haiku/Zeta, or one of the Linux mini-distros, aside from the nominal Amiga connection?
Responsiveness, userfriendlyness and more.
But i agree with others about the need for more apps or even a integrated emulator. I wont be able to use it as a main OS before i can actually surf the web with it, play videos and maybe do some gaming.
Hardware support should also be a high priority.
I am very overall very impressed about how similar in nature it is to the real thing when it comes to responsiveness even on a old computer.
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I think that chap from Lancashire is correct in some ways (although his tone is a little negative). AROS does need more developers to come on board to really accelerate it to the point where it can gain real usability as an everyday OS rather than a curio. From where can they come? The Amiga "community" isn't what it once was. There are still excellent, talented people left, but there's an abundance of "ROM-kidz" and people who'd never accept the idea of Amiga being a mainstream OS and don't care about helping it become that. I've been thinking about posting to some of the Linux newsgroup, at least with the live CDs you can say to someone - take five minutes of your time and check out something very exciting happening in the strange old world of Amiga. Maybe some will remember it and be moved to get involved.
I do find it rather disheartening everyone asking what's the use of it if you can't run 68k programs natively! These are the growing pains of a platform making a brave step from one technology to another. It happened with Mac and it should happen with us! If you want to run 68k software get out your a1200 or run UAE within AROS.
(However, maybe all AROS code could have some sort of header...and if code is launched which doesn't contain this it could be passed to UAE automagically?)
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Piru wrote:
What legal issues? Emulation is not illegal, MorphOS has all that and it's perfectly legal.
I think he means providing the kickstart files needed to use UAE, which require you either have the originals, buy that AmigaForever thingy, or know how to use an internet search engine and do it the traditional Amiga way - piracy. (Note: I do NOT endorse doing it that way as it'd be wrong and immoral and kill the Amiga blah, blah, blah).
I understand that they want to reimplement the kickstart in it's entirety anyway, so that wouldn't be a problem in such instances.
On the main topic: as far as lack of native apps for AROS go, yes this stops me at present from using it for more than 10 minutes - as a 'curio' as dandelion puts it. Though it is getting there as all I really want from an OS are a web browser (a proper one that is, no Amigan format has this). An office package (really just the word processor part would be fine for my purposes). A music app capable of understanding current formats (subtle hint for .ogg), a video player (these two could be combined). And an art package of some kind (AROS has a port of Lunapaint, but I've not tried it yet).
At the moment I'm not too clued up on what exactly AROS has in native form. If at some point I can tick those 5 boxes, I could happily switch to AROS on a semi-permanent basis (need Windoze for games obviously).
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Would it be possible (by this I mean, reasonably do-able, easy and worthwhile) to set up some sort of X-window device available to AROS, to make porting of unix applications that much easier to AROS? They've done that with RISC OS and it's brought many improvements in terms of application support including Firefox (which is a very nice application to have access to on a minority platform I can tell you).
For info on unix porting to RISC OS see: http://www.riscos.info/unix/
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Why not just use a *nix-a-like in the first place?
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well, maybe a CD-R. If you try it and you like, great! if you try it and you don't like it, great, use something else!
You dont even need to bother with the live cd annymore there is a version that loads from in xp i have that one somwere on my hd :lol: but not sure were..
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One thing I see very often, are companies/organisations which use x86 and MS-Win for POS and kiosks.
That bothers me - for numerous reasons.
AROS would be a great to use with these machines.
Perhaps it would be great if a group of AROS enthusiests were to get together and workout how to market (and actually sell) OS's to these kinds of users.
Certainly if it had memory protection and a decent built in TCP/IP stack it would be great for these types of applications.
Of course, it would also probably need some included tech. support, and a hell of a lot of 'how to program for' material. That would be the hard part.
But overall it would be better than buying 100's/1000's/10,000's MS-Windows licencess, IMHO.
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iamaboringperson wrote:
One thing I see very often, are companies/organisations which use x86 and MS-Win for POS and kiosks.
That bothers me - for numerous reasons.
AROS would be a great to use with these machines.
...
But overall it would be better than buying 100's/1000's/10,000's MS-Windows licencess, IMHO.
Except that if cost was an issue, those companies could easily switch to a dedicated Linux distro to do exactly what they want, and Linux programmers and/or documentation & support is far more widespread than AROS will ever be.
Amiga people need to get off this concept that the embedded world is just sitting there breathlessly waiting to be swept off ots feet by Amiga-like operating systems.
I have no idea what the future of AROS is, but I'm pretty certain it isn't as a competitor for MS on embedded systems.
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uncharted wrote:
Why not just use a *nix-a-like in the first place?
I do, and no doubt many here do to. But if I was given the choice of you-name-the-*nix-flavour or something that contains elements and the feel of Workbench, I'd pick the latter seeing as that platform is familiar and I know my way around it better.
Currently, this machine dual boots Win2K and Debian. In the future, I'd be more than happy to make that Winwhatever and AROS. AROS with a functioning web suite and working UAE would seal the deal today. I dont see AROS or any other OS usurping Windows' role in my day to day use any time soon, and I'm ok with that.
I'm just happy someone out there is making the effort and providing the results for FREE no less!
Hats of to the AROS team!
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iamaboringperson wrote:
One thing I see very often, are companies/organisations which use x86 and MS-Win for POS and kiosks.
That bothers me - for numerous reasons.
AROS would be a great to use with these machines.
Perhaps it would be great if a group of AROS enthusiests were to get together and workout how to market (and actually sell) OS's to these kinds of users.
Certainly if it had memory protection and a decent built in TCP/IP stack it would be great for these types of applications.
Of course, it would also probably need some included tech. support, and a hell of a lot of 'how to program for' material. That would be the hard part.
But overall it would be better than buying 100's/1000's/10,000's MS-Windows licencess, IMHO.
The solution to what you're suggesting is Citrix and Terminal Services support.
We've made PXE boot and small flash boot disks at the hospital I work at with a teeny tiny DOS Based Citrix client. Using Citrix it takes 10 seconds to get from Bios splash screen to a Windows XP login.
AROS could do it better, and cheaper. There are already Linux solutions for a Citrix boot environment too, so there would be some competition.
The area it could make huge advances is to make a thin client and make it as simple and easy as possible to setup. For us it wasn't all that simple, and we haven't installed the 300 thin clients we need.
Realistically, to survive in the current world you need support natively for the following: (Totally just my $0.02 worth and not anything I put a lot of stock in.)
Web Browser with support for Flash, Shockwave, CSS, SSL, XML, Citrix, Anti Spyware/Virus etc.
Active Directory support, support for Group Policy and TCP/IP Printing, COM, DCOM, RPC etc.)
Citrix and Terminal Services support.
Office Suite (Not just Word, but Outlook, Excell, Powerpoint, Access, Front Page... even if you are going to use alternatives to these they need to be able to open and work with these formats or you won't be able to integrate your services seemlessly, which is critical.)
Remote management services. (Things like LanDesk, WSUS, SMS, Dameware etc.)
Full Media service (Audio/Video/Streaming Media etc.)
Authoring for Media Services as well.
Encrypted and secure Wireless networking, USB2.x, Bluetooth, Java.
Support for (And Exchange server conduits for) Mobile devices like Cell Phones, Cameras, PalmOS and CE devices.
Can it be done? Yeah, with a team of about 100 zealots.
I downloaded the AROS CD and booted it up. It was impressive, but missing everything. Nice to look at and responsive though. It was enough that I'll check in 6 months from now to see what they've got, but a Citrix client and decent Media player would be enough that I would actually attempt to make it work in some projects I have.
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iamaboringperson wrote:
One thing I see very often, are companies/organisations which use x86 and MS-Win for POS and kiosks.
That bothers me - for numerous reasons.
AROS would be a great to use with these machines.
hence my comment about being a solutions provider
give AROS a full browser and it does 95% of my casual computing...
...
...
or is that 99.% :horse:
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AROS has no chance in the future if...
If the World goes under in the next 12 months.. with the current development speed there is no chance
RWO
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Its fun to see all these posts about AROS not making it! who ever said AROS would be a competitor to the mass market anyways? if AROS can ever get 1000000 users id see that as a massive success and if it dosent so what? the more AROS improve the more people will consider using it either as a hobby OS or even main OS :) and that should be more then enough to make sure there will be some useable software (and AROS acctualy already have some usefull software in hollywood and Lunapaint to name a few) so stop looking so dark on it people :).
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Its fun to see all these posts about AROS not making it! who ever said AROS would be a competitor to the mass market anyways? if AROS can ever get 1000000 users id see that as a massive success and if it dosent so what? the more AROS improve the more people will consider using it either as a hobby OS or even main OS :) and that should be more then enough to make sure there will be some useable software (and AROS acctualy already have some usefull software in hollywood and Lunapaint to name a few) so stop looking so dark on it people :).
I don't think people have quiet gotten the idea what AROS is all about. AROS is not a White Knight looking to save Amigaland and make huge profits by crushing the other commercial OSs. AROS being open source, is a *community* OS. Guess it's all the years of company's blowing sunshine up everyone's ass for sales, they don't understand this different mindset of AROS. Being an end user, all they want is your cash. Being a member of a community with a public OS, means that things only happen if the individual makes it happen. How many copies sold/download is meaningless if the community is happy and moving forward.
Dammy
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Definately get that feeling too! Reading a lot of the views on here, it's like hearing a lot of disgruntled Windows users feeling amazed by the sudden presence of Linux in their computer world. "What, you mean when I went across to Windows because everyone said it's the be-all-and-end-all of computing they weren't actually correct and I look a fool now?" Yes people, you can have more fun with computers than what the people in Seattle tell you. No, this doesn't mean running UAE and it doesn't mean you have to open your wallet to do it. There's very exciting things of real technological prowess happening in the open source world. And they provide a real, viable alternative to MS. AROS isn't that yet, but it has, if we all stop complaining and support it, the potential to do so.
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Dammy Wrote:
Being a member of a community with a public OS, means that things only happen if the individual makes it happen.
There's a community? What do people do with this OS exactly? I might be missing something, but from the 2 hours I spent tinkering with it I saw what appeared to be an interactive demo without sound.
People run this as an operating system? I'm honestly asking that because I didn't see enough there to provide a real computing environment, but close to one.
Dandelion Wrote:
And they provide a real, viable alternative to MS. AROS isn't that yet, but it has, if we all stop complaining and support it, the potential to do so.
Not that I was complaining, but I saw a lot of it, I was offering some consultation and advice into what the OS could easily do, and what would be required to be what the author of this thread wanted it to be (Not that AROS wants to be a mainstream OS, but since that's the thrust of the thread I stayed in context.)
What would one (A non-programmer) do to "Support" it? I hear rumors of bounties, what do they do? Is that the only form of support it has?
I remember reading about AROS in Amiga Format back when that magazine was still alive, but really had no idea why it was being made.
The ISO image I fired up on my PC was really neat looking though, for what it's worth.
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dammy wrote:
I don't think people have quiet gotten the idea what AROS is all about.
True, and this despite trying to work it out for years. To be honest, I don't believe AROS knows what it's all about. There seems to be no direction and no aim, and the only actual purpose I can make out is to give the people involved something to do. Things seem to move on more by accident than design, but at the end of the day it seems to have very little to offer to those who are not involved in developing or advocating it - beyond something to mess around with for a few minutes every few months.
The reason I always ask the same question about AROS is because no one ever has an answer. It seems to be in a constant and perpetual state of aimless development, but I can't make any more use of it today than I could a few years ago. Does anyone ever plan to change this and elevate it to a point where it deserves the hype and interminable announcements? I wish they would, because then we could start talking about practicalities rather than just ideals.
The original question is this thread is a valid one, and despite all the protestations, no one has really has really said any more than "everything's great, don't bother us with details".
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bhoggett wrote:
dammy wrote:
I don't think people have quiet gotten the idea what AROS is all about.
True, and this despite trying to work it out for years. To be honest, I don't believe AROS knows what it's all about. There seems to be no direction and no aim, and the only actual purpose I can make out is to give the people involved something to do.
I think most AROS devs have a good idea of what its about. AROS itself is a product of the devs - unable to form sentient thoughts ;0
If you really cant figure out what its for after "years" your probably wasting your time anyhow.
While we are on the subject (not my subject) what exactly are AmigaOS4 or MorphOS trying to be? They sure dont offer anything compaired to winblows and linsux. Decent 3d hardware driver support? Decent Apps? yeah right ..
Just novalty software for the "dedicated" amigans?
Things seem to move on more by accident than design, but at the end of the day it seems to have very little to offer to those who are not involved in developing or advocating it - beyond something to mess around with for a few minutes every few months.
Regardless what you may "think" or "feel" - most things have well thought out, and discussed (amongst devs on the mailing list), design. Thats not to say everything works perfect - some well planned things dont always bear the fruits they appeared to.
(the replacement of dos packets comes to mind)
The reason I always ask the same question about AROS is because no one ever has an answer. It seems to be in a constant and perpetual state of aimless development, but I can't make any more use of it today than I could a few years ago.
Perhaps you should write down EXACTLY what IS your question. Ive only read negative statements so far ..
Does anyone ever plan to change this and elevate it to a point where it deserves the hype and interminable announcements? I wish they would, because then we could start talking about practicalities rather than just ideals.
Yeah AROS would do so much better to live in the land of Vapour AmigaOS has enjoyed for the last x years (I lost track.. but im sure its more than one digit now)
The original question is this thread is a valid one, and despite all the protestations, no one has really has really said any more than "everything's great, don't bother us with details".
There was no original question - just a statement that was subsequently put right. Some of the items STATED as not going to happen - are infact being actively developed even now.
If you dont think AROS has a future - bully for you. I doubt anything Devs or otherwise would do can change that.
Luckily far more people DO see a future and appreciate the potential AROS has.
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True, and this despite trying to work it out for years.
Is there a time table? None that I am aware of. Now it may not fit well within YOUR time table, but such is life. Over the past two years, I've been very happy with AROS' developement.
To be honest, I don't believe AROS knows what it's all about. There seems to be no direction and no aim, and the only actual purpose I can make out is to give the people involved something to do
I guess it's possible for those on the outside looking in may interput it that way. If that is what you like to think, by all means, do so.
The reason I always ask the same question about AROS is because no one ever has an answer.
Perhaps they did answer, and you just failed to recognise it as the answer you were looking for. Or of course, they just ignored you.
It seems to be in a constant and perpetual state of aimless development, but I can't make any more use of it today than I could a few years ago.
Guess all those things have been developed over the past two years are meaningless to you. Well such is life. Perhaps AROS will eventually live up to your high expectations. Until then, how about writing your own Amiga like OS so AROS knows how it should be done? :roll:
Dammy
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Just a quick question : Is there a compatiblity matrix for the AROS snapshots ? I'm trying w/o any luck to boot past GRUBinto the latest (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/aros/AROS-20060207-i386-pc-boot-iso.tar.bz2?download) iso image for i386.. :cry: Is that the right download ?
I remember trying the same thing with a 2005 version on this very machine (athlon 2Ghz / GeForce4) and it worked.. Or dif it ?
Thanks for any light from any person that manages to boot it on asimilar machine !
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@ bhoggett
Its fair to be frustrated with long development times, but really what do expect for zero effort and zero expenditure on your behalf? I dont think its fair to criticise/condemn a product that you get for free, instead simply dont use it.
On the other hand, if you have a vision for AROS' direction why not get involved and do some work towards fulfilling that vision?
AROS is a community effort, the people involved are working on the aspects they enjoy, its just possible that noone wants to work on the task of generating a development pathway, if that's the aspect you enjoy, get involved and contribute your ideas, its better than standing on the sidelines.
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Kalamatee wrote:
Perhaps you should write down EXACTLY what IS your question. Ive only read negative statements so far ..
*Sigh*
OK, here it is again, for the zillionth time:
"If you are not an AROS developer, and not involved in its promotion or hype, what use is AROS to you? Why should you really care about AROS?"
I know there is plenty of activity and discussion between AROS devs on the mailing lists and forums, but it does seem to be a project simply aimed at the devs alone.
The OP essentially asked the question "What is AROS for?", and it's a valid question. If the answer is "It's a project for the devs to have fun with." than that's fine, I can accept that. However, reading all the various announcements and the posts about it on forums from people like dammy, you'd think it was a project with significance to ordinary users, a realistic and preferable alternative to porting AmigaOS4 or MorphOS to x86, for instance - but in that respect asking "when and how" is a valid concern.
Will AROS be able to hold the interest of the casual user for more than 10 minutes, and if so when? Is it taboo to ask?
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"If you are not an AROS developer, and not involved in its promotion or hype, what use is AROS to you? Why should you really care about AROS?"
The short answer is: you should't. And the best thing is, no one is asking you to!
The long answer is: anyone can "develop" AROS, be it by means of contributing directly to its codebase, or by developing applications for it, or by giving suggestions, or by drawing icons, writing documentation, or whatever else suits your needs. As for the "hype" and "promotion": has it ever crossed your mind that it's not AROS devs who hype it or promote it? Have you looked at how many people are subscribed to aros-exec?
Like it or not, AROS represents, to some people, something "good", something to "promote" and something to work on their spare time.
Anyone is free to contribute to AROS, and AROS itself is the summation of all those contributions, hence AROS is what people want it to be.
What do you want AROS to be?
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bhoggett wrote:
The OP essentially asked the question "What is AROS for?", and it's a valid question.
The purpose of AROS is to develop an open source amiga like OS.
If the answer is "It's a project for the devs to have fun with." than that's fine, I can accept that.
As it is an open source project done by volunteers the devs want to enjoy programming AROS.
However, reading all the various announcements and the posts about it on forums from people like dammy, you'd think it was a project with significance to ordinary users, a realistic and preferable alternative to porting AmigaOS4 or MorphOS to x86, for instance - but in that respect asking "when and how" is a valid concern.
Fortunately for most devs AROS' purpose is not only to have fun but to end up with an OS usable for everyday use.
The timeline ? When it's done.
Will AROS be able to hold the interest of the casual user for more than 10 minutes, and if so when? Is it taboo to ask?
It's not taboo. The problem seems to be that some people can't ask this question without becoming confrontational.
Personally I'm an AROS dev, I enjoy programming it, I do target AROS to become an OS for general use.
I don't understand the heated discussion about it, though. If it's not usable (yet) for you; don't use it.
greets,
Staf.
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Will AROS be able to hold the interest of the casual user for more than 10 minutes, and if so when? Is it taboo to ask?
So you installed AROS, setup TCP/IP, did some IRCing and then customized your prefs, played some games, did some art work while listening to MP3s all in under 10 minutes? You must have been REALLY bored out of your mind with the old school Amigas.
Dammy
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xaccrocheur wrote:
Just a quick question : Is there a compatiblity matrix for the AROS snapshots ? I'm trying w/o any luck to boot past GRUBinto the latest (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/aros/AROS-20060207-i386-pc-boot-iso.tar.bz2?download) iso image for i386.. :cry: Is that the right download ?
I remember trying the same thing with a 2005 version on this very machine (athlon 2Ghz / GeForce4) and it worked.. Or dif it ?
Thanks for any light from any person that manages to boot it on asimilar machine !
Yes, that's the right download. You might get more clues about what's going wrong by choosing VGA graphics in the GRUB menu (it shows you the boot messages). Then you should probably post on aros-exec.org.
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Someone asked:
"Will AROS be able to hold the interest of the casual user for more than 10 minutes, and if so when? Is it taboo to ask? "
To which Fats replied:
It's not taboo. The problem seems to be that some people can't ask this question without becoming confrontational.
While later Dammy replied to the same question with:
So you installed AROS, setup TCP/IP, did some IRCing and then customized your prefs, played some games, did some art work while listening to MP3s all in under 10 minutes? You must have been REALLY bored out of your mind with the old school Amigas.
Dammy
I'm finding this to be a fairly decent thread for getting some discussion underway for the average onlooker like myself. I've used AROS for all of 1 hour from an ISO that I downloaded.
I can see where the Devs and Fans would feel beset upon from the types of questions. (The title of the thread alone is enough to put someone on the defensive.)
The thing I see here is that even though people are giving harsh criticism of AROS, the good thing is... they're at least loooking. At some point they tried it out.
Whilst Dammy's reply was one of moderate defensiveness, it held within it some good detail on what can be done with AROS. Thanks Dammy. A more detailed version of what you typed there would be awesome.
I too wonder what I can do with AROS. I like the fact that it's fast and smooth and very Amiga-Like.
Is there a listing of applications that work with AROS compiled somewhere? Maybe an AROS fan could write up some quick guides titled something like "Things you can do with AROS"... even if you aren't a programmer, you could contribute a tremendous amount with just something like that. I'd give it another shot if I didn't have to scour the internet to put the pieces together.