Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: YttriumOx on November 12, 2002, 08:48:14 AM
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I'm getting sick of this, so I've decided to vent my frustrations and I apologize to anyone in advance if this starts a flame war (as it's quite likely to do I'm afraid). :griping:
One of the main arguments I see from people against the AmigaOne is that it's just a rebadged Teron CX or Teron PX. This is quite simply not true.
The AmigaOne is based on the Teron design, but has several enhancements and modifications that are NOT part of the original Teron specification (although the Teron may have been enhanced to meet these same specs since then, I don't know... but if anything, that makes the Teron a clone of the AmigaOne!)
From Eyetechs site:
Is the AmigaOneG3-SE the same as the MAI Teron Cx? No. During the period leading up to the OS4 development agreement being signed we evaluated the Articia S northbridge chip for possible use in a redesigned AmigaOne. We concluded that it was the most cost-effective chip for the design and proceeded to draw up some new specifications for an uprated, more cost-effectively engineered AmigaOne, the AmigaOneG3-SE. Clearly using the Articia S instead of Escena's custom northbridge design meant that both the schematic design and the PCB layout would be entirely new. MAI logic are a chipset manufacturer, not a PPC motherboard manufacturer, but they had commissioned a low volume, high cost evaluation board, the Teron Cx, to help sell their chipsets. The Teron Cx was never designed to, or intended to, go into volume production. We therefore asked them if they could recommend a design company who was familiar with using the Articia S in PPC motherboard design. They recommended the same (Far Eastern) company that designed their Teron Cx evaluation board.
The new Eyetech AmigaOne design obviously shares a lot of commonality with the Teron Cx board, but more than a cursory glance at the specifications (ATA speed, integrated ethernet, custom firmware, number of active PCI/AGP slots etc) - and the price - of both boards should be enough to convince most people that they really are different designs.
However if you remain unconvinced you are of course perfectly welcome to purchase the Teron Cx evaluation board. It costs $3900, misses many features of the AmigaOneG3-SE, and won't run OS4.
AmigaOneG3SE information at Eyetech's AmigaOne Information page (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/information.php) :rtfm:
TeronCX information at MAI's TeronCX Information page (http://www.mai.com/products/teron%20cx.htm) :rtfm:
FURTHERMORE, I recently saw a posting here on Amiga.org claiming that Bill McEwen in a recent interview was lying when he said "it's our spec". Sorry, wrong. It IS their spec. The fact that the TeronCX quite closely matched it and didn't need much modification is one of the reasons it was chosen I'd imagine. If Eyetech built a board that did NOT meet Amiga's spec, it would NOT be an AmigaOne.
And before anyone calls me a "follower of the name" or "a religious nut", I want to point out strongly and clearly that everything I have said above is true and verifiable from multiple sources. There are only two pieces of "opinion" in the whole thing - the first line where I said I'm sick of this and where I used the words "I'd imagine".
So go stick that in yer pipe and smoke it! :madashell:
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whats the differance?...so it has their rom on it... and a few minor changes...it's still the same thing PCI/AGP a PPC solderd on or in the new version socketed... i think theirs a dime's worth of differance between the A1/Pegasos/Teron/etc ...
It's not like it's a 'custom chip' differance... AOS4 could run on a "pegasos' wich is by your logic a 'totally differant' board... claiming some monir details are differant and that you are buying a 'real amiga' isnt that strong an argument when you consider that it dosent have a 'custom chipset' it uses the ArticiaS ...good or bad...it's useing generic PPC hardware..not something they 'engineered' differant.
'their spec' seems like just a generic PPC board useing ArticiaS ...the rest is standerd goods on any board these days... PCI/AGP and of course it needs a PPC cpu as it will be a PPC OS.
It's understandable why people would think their the same (what little differance there is) when you look at the picture's here.
TeronCX
http://www.mai.com/products/teron%20cx.htm (http://www.mai.com/products/teron%20cx.htm)
and the AmigaOne on eyetech's site.
http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/pics/a1g3se_t05ac1.jpg (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/pics/a1g3se_t05ac1.jpg)
I dunno what eyetech changed but it dosent look to be much.
It seems like their just volume producing and marketing the TeronCX from this information...they changed very little... although it isnt much...they are somewhat differant in very little ways... the chipset is what matters though....any company can throw together a PPC board...not any company can engineer a chipset... :-) :smack:
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Looking at pictures to work out the differences between the boards is perhaps the most stupid Idea i've ever heard.
The teron is a prototype board that was created by MAI, the AmigaOne board has had significant development done on it to get it to where it is, sure its based on a teron board, but then it would have to be teron boards being the mai's developer prototype board.
Of course I would never stop you paying the 6 grand for a teron board thats inferior to the AmigaOne board, infact i'd actually laugh at you as you found out that it is useless as anything other than a prototype board for developers.
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I'm not saying the teron board is better...I'm saying the A1 is basically just a minorly modified Teron ...thrown into volume production...and a picture speaks a thousand words... their idential from the chipset on....
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Hint:
Eyetech is MAI's European distributor of TeronCX/PX/AmigaOne boards. The text quoted above should be read as "the AmigaOne released in the future will not be the same as the TeronCX released in the past". By this I mean that if you decide to buy a Linux-only version of the AmigaOne (with ppcboot, but no hardware keys for AOS4) you are effectively purchasing a TeronCX mk x, where x is a bit larger than it was when that text was written. Doesn't mean the text is a lie or anything, but it doesn't mean that the AmigaOneG3-SE and the TeronCX (current revision) aren't identical at the moment either.
Come on, guys. Do some thinking, ok?
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Team
Is it a slow news week or is everyone just bored.
Who cares if the AmigaOne is based on a Teron (or even a "Mickey Mouse") board.
The AmigaOne board IS THE AMIGA BOARD, cos it's licensed.
It does not matter where, when or what history a mainboard has; Once it's licensed it IS AN AMIGA.
If Pegasos was suitably licensed, IT TOO WOULD BE AN AMIGA.
All things considered, it is a good mainboard and it is thousands of dollars cheaper then the price of a "Teron" as advertised by MAI.
Now remind me again, what is the problem with the AmigaOne, as I do not care who originally prototyped, named, tested, drew-up, manufatured, distributed or renamed etc the mainboad.
Regards
Darren
P.S. I will not bother with this thread again so feel free to flame away as I will not be responding (get a life!!!)
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All the fuss about it just seem plain rediculous. Teron, not teron. So what, it's not like it matters either way. But people just want something to bitch about as usual.
/Björn
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The AmigaOne board IS THE AMIGA BOARD, cos it's licensed.
Well, thats a pity, isn't it? I mean that you can call anything "Amiga". I remember a time when the brand "Amiga" stood for exciting technology ...
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Well, thats a pity, isn't it? I mean that you can call anything "Amiga". I remember a time when the brand "Amiga" stood for exciting technology ...
I totally agree. I think if Amiga Inc had sold a fridge calling it an Amiga there would be a whole line of people ready to buy it.
Mind you.. Im sure Bill would call it "Exciting" Technology and then fleecy would mention the fantastic "Content" :-)
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Well, thats a pity, isn't it? I mean that you can call anything "Amiga". I remember a time when the brand "Amiga" stood for exciting technology ...
You people just have the thickest brains I've ever seen.... Exactly what _in your opinion_ do you concider to be worthy of being called "Amiga Hardware"?????????? Custom designed Zorro bus? Ancient custom chips that cannot even begin to match the performance of todays chip manufacturers products? Stuff that would have to have millions spent on R&D and manufacturing? Who is going to fund it? Who is going to build all of those custom Zorro10000 boards that you dream of?
Certainly not anyone set up to build on todays standards.
If you would get out of your closed little world and look around abit, you might find that there are some exciting technologies, however, they usually get stuffed into a Windows PC which makes them seem dull. If Amiga had 5 years ago alot of the things that are available now for the PC you would think it was so innovative because is was officially on Amiga first?
I can tell you that I don't use my Amiga3000 on a daily basis because it doesn't keep up with the things I WANT to do. It's still a fun system to boot up and tinker with, but it's not up to speed for me. And it's all due to the limited custom hardware... what was once it's strong point for me is now a weakness that holds it back.
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yeah in another thread a guys arguing anything that gets an A.inc Rom/Dongle is an AmigaOne because AmigaOne is a spec... I think it is quite a pity that anything this generic can get an Amiga badge... I think Amiga should at least market it as an OS if this the the case..and stop trying to force people to pay premiums for A1....when there are alternatives that are cheaper and better(better bieng relative to the A1 not to computing in general) ....
this 'quality assurance' is the biggest load I've seen the farmer haul in a long time... I thought those days where gone when VMS passed away to Unix and DEC adopted Unix...... but I guess their not...
I remember the whole 'we prefer VMS becase it gives you a more quality expierance then unix could on our hardware...so if you run Unix on our hardware its unsupported' ....
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>You people just have the thickest brains I've ever
> seen.... Exactly what _in your opinion_ do you
>concider to be worthy of being called "Amiga
>Hardware"??????????
Well, for the sake of argument, lets just stick to the word Amiga. I will offer you my opinion on the matter, what is worthy of being called an Amiga. Obviously this is not to question the trademark holders legal right to decide for themselves. It is just my personal opinion on how to preserve (and what is) the value of the trademark.
I think the original point in this thread was well made. It is a pity that just about anything can be called an Amiga these days given sufficient licensing. And people readily accept this as well.
What used to make the word Amiga so special was the fact that it used to represent technological excellence. Yes, the custom chips were one brilliant thing. Today they are a hinderance, sure, but when the Amiga was originally sold it was a strong point - but then, on this we do agree.
Some of what I see now associated with the word Amiga is technology that is not interesting nor exciting nor particularily excellent in my opinion. What we have seen of the AmigaDE is mediocre at best. The AmigaOne represents, in terms of its PC related hardware (old AGP, old USB, etc.), adequate but yesterdays technology. PowerPC is nice, but the arguments for x86 are pretty convincing as well. Name one thing the board has special to warrant calling it Amiga. Why not just call it the Teron-CX.
The point? I think Seehund and his petition have one. There are no more Amigas. Perhaps that is they way it should be, if we want to continue to associate the name with technological excellence. Since it is not feasible to develop new custom chips, one avenue of creating interesting hardware is pretty much closed. Another one, creating something special based on standard parts, like the Pegasos Microwave (but that's just silly) or the eclipsis doesn't seem to be really realistically looked into as a new "Amiga". Something I think should be called an Amiga is something like iMac (just an example of a special design) running AmigaOS even if it was based on standard parts since it had special design and thus is interesting and has some innovation and excellence built in...
AmigaOS on the other hand, could run on supported hardware and they could continue to develop the OS into a direction we and the rest of the marked would associate with similar values as the original Amiga - technological excellence. AmigaOS 4.0 may not get us there yet, but it is a starting point. There, I think, the word Amiga still has a meaning. It is Amiga.
AmigaDE, well, who knows what will come of that but it could get better. So I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, which given their track-record is a lot, maybe it will mature some day into something that we can all associate with technological excellence and thus gladly with the name Amiga as well.
But as for Amiga hardware, well, I'm not sure if they are doing the name Amiga any favours by making it synomyous with hardware that is not excellent nor exciting nor interesting except to a few diehards. I'm not saying it won't sell some, and I do appreciate the effort that went into it, but I still wonder if it wouldn't be better to call it something completely else and just let AmigaOS run on it.
That way the name Amiga could continue to mean something it used to mean in the past. Calling something pretty uninteresting Amiga to make it more interesting seems like a pretty short-sighted marketing decision to me. It may damage the trademark. For some, I'm sure it will damage the trademark.
Today the interest is there. People are looking forward to seeing a new Amiga. It will turn heads. But when they see a standard motherboard with yesterdays specs they will no longer continue to associate the Amiga with such technological excellence as they used to. Or at least this is the reaction I fear many will have. Whether or not I'm proven wrong or right remains to be seen.
So, what exactly do I think should be called Amiga? Something special and related to the original Amiga in one form or another. If all they can manage to do in a special way is software like the OS or even the DE, perhaps they should stick to calling that Amiga and making it as special as possible, not everything they can get their licensing policies applied to.
But then, licensing is about money, so I'm sure these concerns will pretty much fall on deaf ears. I hope it is not too shortsighted a view. At least I know many people who pretty much think of the Amiga as a joke nowadays due to all the efforts that have been assocaited with the name in the past... For some, it has ceased to mean anything special.
And that, indeed, like someone posted up there, is a pity.
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What most people fail to realize here seems to be the fact that Amiga branded hardware has gone from beeing custom/exotic chipset based to a form of industry standard. However, we're not talking an "open" industry standard here meaning that all Articia & PPC based solutions would run AmigaOS. It's about an "Amiga" standard for Amiga hardware manufacturers. If you are an Amiga hardware manufacturer, the licensing issues are no problem what so ever. On the contrary, they're actually very beneficial as they allow you to become an "official" Amiga hardware manufacturer rather than some clone or accelerator board maker which the OS wasn't made for running on in the first place.
I think this entire discussion is pretty silly. I mean, if Pegasos fans wants AmigaOS4 support, tell that to bPlan. It's plain stupid to hold Amiga Inc. responsible for not supporting their competitors product, you know.
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responsible for not supporting their competitors product, you know.
since when did Amiga.inc make motherboards? since when where they a hardware company at all?... didnt know they competed with hardware companys... this is news to me...i thought they said they would be a 'software only' company and thus would want to sell as much software as possible./ :-o
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What I think of as an Amiga has changed over the last couple years. I used to think it was a combination of special hardware and the AmigaOS. After industry standard components surpassed the Amiga chipset, we started seeing Zorro cards intended to replace ECS and AGA, using SVGA chips found in PCs. As these PC chips got further ahead, I started really wanting them, and started really wanting standard PCI slots in my Amiga box.
The reality now is that we cannot have special hardware like we once did. No one will make custom chips for use in Amigas and nothing else, that's a business plan destined for bankruptcy. If someone did make chips for us, based on our specs, but sold them to others as well, that still isn't special Amiga hardware, as selling it to anyone makes it a standard part same as ATI, NVidia or Creative Labs make. I realized that I wasn't so attached to the idea of having "different" hardware as PC users have, as they now have much better stuff.
I got to thinking, what makes Amiga really special to me is the user experience. What makes up the user experience? The OS is the biggest thing here. Back in the good old days, the custom chips made some of what the OS did possible, and PC chips couldn't do those things. (color palette, stereo sound, etc) Now PC chips can do these things far better than my AGA machine can. "Custom" hardware is no longer a requirement for my user experience. Standard parts cost a lot less, so I'm perfectly happy with the fact that I can now use them.
Is an AmigaOne truely an "Amiga", other than by name? If it provides the user experience I desire, then yes, in my opinion. Will it run the Amiga software I like? Yes. Is it very close to what some people call a TeronCX? Yes. Do I care? Heck no. It will give me more of the Amiga experience I desire than Amithlon or UAE would (I do have some PPC software that these things don't run), so I choose this in preference to the X86 emulators. If I had gone with an emulation, for some of the things I have Amiga-PPC-native, I'd have to reboot into Windows or something like that, and exit the Amiga user experience for those things. So, for my purposes, to maximise my time avoiding the horribly unpleasant (IMHO) Windows user experience, the AmigaOne is the best choice for me.
What more should I need to be content with this thing?
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since when did Amiga.inc make motherboards? since when where they a hardware company at all?... didnt know they competed with hardware companys... this is news to me...i thought they said they would be a 'software only' company and thus would want to sell as much software as possible./
All they ever did was outsource the hardware production. Their product is still a complete platform, not just software.
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Well, thats a pity, isn't it? I mean that you can call anything "Amiga". I remember a time when the brand "Amiga" stood for exciting technology ...
Well, I think the latest AGP cards like the Radeon 9700 Pro are actually quite exciting! There is exciting hardware out there and the sooner we can adopt the newer standards the sooner we can use them on our next generation Amigas!
What I think people really miss is the snob factor. Amiga had custom chips that no one else had so it made us feel supperior. Those days are gone for ever, we just have to deal with the fact that PC and Mac users will have access to the same hardware as we will. We just gotta get to the point where we can use AGP v3.0, SerialATA, IEEE1394, USB2.0 etc...
- Mike
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YttriumOx wrote:
I'm getting sick of this, so I've decided to vent my frustrations and I apologize to anyone in advance if this starts a flame war (as it's quite likely to do I'm afraid). :griping:
One of the main arguments I see from people against the AmigaOne is that it's just a rebadged Teron CX or Teron PX. This is quite simply not true.
The AmigaOne is based on the Teron design, but has several enhancements and modifications that are NOT part of the original Teron specification (although the Teron may have been enhanced to meet these same specs since then, I don't know... but if anything, that makes the Teron a clone of the AmigaOne!)
I'm sorry, you are at very least misinformed, but more likely since you started this thread, you are trying to misinform the Amiga Community. The Amiga One board is a Teron board, its the same Teron board shown at Linuxworld, the same board that is available for much cheaper from multiple vendors. What is eyetech doing??? They are distributing it, possibly with a new boot rom bios, and when/if AOS 4.0 runs on the board, they will send that to you as well. In the x86/PPC threads, a comment was made that they chose PPC boards because they couldnt support all the bios motherboard combos of x86. They dont want you to realize they could have just as easily picked a much more powerful (and cheaper) x86 motherboard chose to just support it, and had a larger group buy in to the "Amiga One". Right now, I can tell you my P4 running UAE outperforms what you will see from the fastest of the Amiga Ones, and my motherboard and processor cost substantially less then $800, in fact the whole computer cost less then that.
-Tig
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Some of what I see now associated with the word Amiga is technology that is not interesting nor exciting nor particularily excellent in my opinion. What we have seen of the AmigaDE is mediocre at best. The AmigaOne represents, in terms of its PC related hardware (old AGP, old USB, etc.), adequate but yesterdays technology. PowerPC is nice, but the arguments for x86 are pretty convincing as well. Name one thing the board has special to warrant calling it Amiga. Why not just call it the Teron-CX.
Oh give me a break, the A500 wasn't all that exciting either but they called it an Amiga and it sold like crazy! Aside from it's OCS chipset, it had nothing really going for it until 3rd party manufacturers decided to add a bunch of add-ons for it. I've always seen the current AmigaOne design as just an entry level machine, much like the A500. It gets the job done with little in terms of bells and whistles. This is a decent way to enter the market by flooding it with a low cost platform that can more easily be adopted by the masses. I still see PC motherboards with similar specs targetted as an entry level system, so it's not THAT ancient. Honestly, I think they should have made the A1 even cheaper, but that's another thread.
I fully expect a more high-end spec AmigaOne to come around eventually that will be targetted more at the high end user. However, I see no point in doing so until we see how AmigaOS4 fairs. If the market grows you can bet your last dollar there will be newer and better AmigaOne hardware platforms built.
- Mike
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I'm sorry, you are at very least misinformed, but more likely since you started this thread, you are trying to misinform the Amiga Community.
By that sentence, you accuse Eyetech of beeing liars as well. In case you missed it, this information is the official information available from Eyetech's website.
But then, of course we should believe in your words as you are more trustworty than the manufacturers themselves? Get real.
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since when did Amiga.inc make motherboards? since when where they a hardware company at all?... didnt know they competed with hardware companys... this is news to me...i thought they said they would be a 'software only' company and thus would want to sell as much software as possible./
You just have to be difficult don't ya? :)
It's no secret that thendic/bPlan are closely alligned with a software company that is in DIRECT competition with Amiga/Hyperion. The relationship of Pegasos with MorphOS is much like that of the AmigaOne and AmigaOS4.0. Since bPlan are not interested in licensing OS4 for their hardware this shows where their loyalties really lie. Noting the above, I think it's clear what Samface was getting at.
- Mike
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I'm sorry, you are at very least misinformed, but more likely since you started this thread, you are trying to misinform the Amiga Community. The Amiga One board is a Teron board, its the same Teron board shown at Linuxworld, the same board that is available for much cheaper from multiple vendors.
Although I agree with what you say about the x86 motherboards, CPU & speed issues (although an AMD chip would probably be faster and cheaper ;-) ), I must ask how you are so confident about the above quote. Just because a MB has the same chipset and feature set does not mean it's the same MB. If you look at the specs for some of the leatest ASUS, Gigabyte or MSI boards, they all have the same chipsets and features and even their model numbers are similar. Yet, when it comes to benchmark timings they are all quite different. Unless you've had all the MBs side by side and performed exhaustive tests to compare their performance and reliability then you really can't say what you are saying above.
- Mike
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In the x86/PPC threads, a comment was made that they chose PPC boards because they couldnt support all the bios motherboard combos of x86. They dont want you to realize they could have just as easily picked a much more powerful (and cheaper) x86 motherboard chose to just support it, and had a larger group buy in to the "Amiga One". Right now, I can tell you my P4 running UAE outperforms what you will see from the fastest of the Amiga Ones, and my motherboard and processor cost substantially less then $800, in fact the whole computer cost less then that.
Oh please! You're comparing an oven with a microwave. Sure, the microwave is cheaper and faster, but is it able to cook all the meals the oven can do? No. If you want AmigaOS4, then buy an Amiga computer. It's really as simple as that.
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samface wrote:
I'm sorry, you are at very least misinformed, but more likely since you started this thread, you are trying to misinform the Amiga Community.
By that sentence, you accuse Eyetech of beeing liars as well. In case you missed it, this information is the official information available from Eyetech's website.
But then, of course we should believe in your words as you are more trustworty than the manufacturers themselves? Get real.
Alright Samface lets make this real clear.
To the best of my knowledge no where on Eyetech site do they say that the new A1 board is not made by Teron. Eyetech is a distributer for Teron, period.
Dont believe me, read this if you prefer:
http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease070902_2.html
Gee now thats info from the manufacturer, the same info from Linuxworld, the same info I said, I'll take your apology when you are man enough to give it.
-Tig
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All they ever did was outsource the hardware production. Their product is still a complete platform, not just software.
so their like Nvidia then? they oursource production now?....hmmm thats interesting... I didnt know they where engineering anything.... again I find this all news to me... maybe I'm just an ignorant person and you can 'enlighten' me about this engineering department of Amiga.inc that out-sourced production of their special board?
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I'm amazed how some jump into threads without even reading the initial post. This is also from Eyetechs website (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/faq.php):
Is the AmigaOneG3-SE the same as the MAI Teron Cx?
No. During the period leading up to the OS4 development agreement being signed we evaluated the Articia S northbridge chip for possible use in a redesigned AmigaOne. We concluded that it was the most cost-effective chip for the design and proceeded to draw up some new specifications for an uprated, more cost-effectively engineered AmigaOne, the AmigaOneG3-SE. Clearly using the Articia S instead of Escena's custom northbridge design meant that both the schematic design and the PCB layout would be entirely new. MAI logic are a chipset manufacturer, not a PPC motherboard manufacturer, but they had commissioned a low volume, high cost evaluation board, the Teron Cx, to help sell their chipsets. The Teron Cx was never designed to, or intended to, go into volume production. We therefore asked them if they could recommend a design company who was familiar with using the Articia S in PPC motherboard design. They recommended the same (Far Eastern) company that designed their Teron Cx evaluation board.
The new Eyetech AmigaOne design obviously shares a lot of commonality with the Teron Cx board, but more than a cursory glance at the specifications (ATA speed, integrated ethernet, custom firmware, number of active PCI/AGP slots etc) - and the price - of both boards should be enough to convince most people that they really are different designs.
However if you remain unconvinced you are of course perfectly welcome to purchase the Teron Cx evaluation board. It costs $3900, misses many features of the AmigaOneG3-SE, and won't run OS4.
Also, perhaps I should inform you that there is no company called Teron at all, their name is MAI logics.
The announcement regarding Eyetech as a distributor of their boards is only just that. It has nothing to do with the Teron based but modified AmigaOne design at all.
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The new Eyetech AmigaOne design obviously shares a lot of commonality with the Teron Cx board, but more than a cursory glance at the specifications (ATA speed, integrated ethernet, custom firmware, number of active PCI/AGP slots etc) - and the price - of both boards should be enough to convince most people that they really are different designs.
my question to you sameface is DID YOU read the TeronCX specs and compare them to what they say is 'differant' ?... because NOTHING is...
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It's no secret that thendic/bPlan are closely alligned with a software company that is in DIRECT competition with Amiga/Hyperion
wouldnt that make all the more sense to bring their OS onto it's platform? to 'compete' with it?
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4 x PCI slots + 1 x AGP slot on 2 buses
10/100Mbps ethernet
2 x USB connectors + 2 more on headers
2 x UDMA 100 channels (4 devices)
Open firmware-compatible BIOS with OS4.0 extensions & NV memory
PS2 mouse & keyboard connectors
Sound, modem & gameport I/O via the AMR header
Parallel, serial & floppy (PC FDD controller) connectors
Real time clock
2 x SDRAM sockets for up to 2 GB of main memory
A1 specs from eyetech site
lets move onto TeronCX specs from MIA's site
I'm posting a PDF file from MIA's site.. you show me a differance here... I wanna see what it is.
http://www.mai.com/products/BRV850R2.0.pdf (http://www.mai.com/products/BRV850R2.0.pdf)
just to blow a few holes in eyetechs claim their board is differant...
but more than a cursory glance at the specifications (ATA speed, integrated ethernet, custom firmware, number of active PCI/AGP slots etc) - and the price - of both boards should be enough to convince most people that they really are different designs .
TeronCX has Ethernet (same as theirs) AGP 2X (same as theirs) 4 PCI slots(same as theirs) USB (same as theirs) ATA 100 (same as theirs) same ammount of PCI/AGP/etc ...and the SAME layout... when a board is re-engineered even slight changes are typically apperant... there are none...
I bet the only differance is firmware and thats a software change...not hardware...
the fact they would claim on their site that their board has has ethernet integrated(this bieng differant)/PCI slots(differant number) and a differant ATA speeds ...all bieng features they claim will 'to convince most people that they really are different designs' is interesting when MIA's specs on the Teron are identical to the A1.... maybe it's just a corporate 'screw up'? ... in any case I find it interesting how someone can post a topic about how 'their differant boards' whilst not even checking to see if eyetech isnt blowing smoke... I admit I should have caught this earlier but I didnt care to much since what board it is dosent matter...
I still dont think 'who makes it' or 'what board' it is matters it's always gonna be the OS... but posting false info isnt cool now is it :P
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my question to you sameface is DID YOU read the TeronCX specs and compare them to what they say is 'differant' ?... because NOTHING is...
Those are not even my words that you quoted, it's from Eyetech's website.
Anyway, the MAI board has been revised since that FAQ was written and I'm not sure wether MAI has simply implemented the Eyetech modifications but nevertheless, Eyetech did those modifications and therefore differ from the *original* Teron CX design. Before you claim otherwise, get proof or stop trolling. We have enough FUD going around anyway.
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I'm posting a PDF file from MIA's site.. you show me a differance here... I wanna see what it is.
http://www.mai.com/products/BRV850R2.0.pdf
Do you see the "R2.0" ending of that file? I "think" (with extremely high plausability) that means revision 2.0. The MAI board has been improved *after* Eyetech did their modifications to the previous revision. Interpret that any way you want, facts remain: Eyetech's board is a modified version of the previous MAI revision and these modifications were made by Eyetech according to the official information available.
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Those are not even my words that you quoted, it's from Eyetech's website
that was my whole point... you would of course know what you didnt post?
get proof or stop trolling
didnt I just post take some text off eyetechs website and post that and then post a PDF describing in detail the TeronCX... I think I have proof... if you dont like what you read then just say you dont like it... in any case if anyone isnt bieng 'truthful' with 'proof' its eyetech for claiming something that isnt true...
www.eyetech.co.uk go check their specs on A1 the 'revised' specs...
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If you look at this (http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease081302.html) announcement on MAI's homepage, then you'll have the proof that the improvements to the MAI board has been made after Eyetech implemented theirs.
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samface wrote:
Also, perhaps I should inform you that there is no company called Teron at all, their name is MAI logics.
The announcement regarding Eyetech as a distributor of their boards is only just that. It has nothing to do with the Teron based but modified AmigaOne design at all.
Lets post the quote about Eyetech distributing.
Mai Logic Incorporated, a technology design house of integrated circuits/systems, today announced an agreement with Eyetech Group Ltd. to distribute the Teron CX and PX development systems in Europe, and to distribute production systems based on the Teron CX and PX designs to the Amiga market worldwide. Terms of the agreement emphasized both companies' long-term commitment to foster an unshakeable partnership and to create a bright future for the Amiga customers and partners.
Which part of this has confused you into believing that Eyetech is doing is anything more then changing boot proms??? Its interesting that everyone points to the $3900 price point as the "reason" this isnt one of the Teron boards, but of course since $500 systems were offered at LinuxWorld, its hard to use that in a real world conversation. Eyetech implies in the post that Mai isnt doing volume product of a PPC board, everyone here knows that IS NOT TRUE. Why exactly do YOU believe that Eyetech is only misinforming us of 1 piece of the puzzle, they are lying about Mai selling boards (in fact they are selling Mai boards) but they designed there own PPC board for Amiga. Yeah right, it just has the exact same layout down to the resistor names, I believe that. Eyetech had a bunch of monkeys (or maybe Sheep if Fleecy was helping them) and they eventually got an identical design to the board that Mai is selling. So now Eyetech is selling Mai boards they are distributers for and identical boards they developed that are called "Amiga Ones". Hey since you believe that, I have land in Florida and a bridge in Brooklyn I think you might be interested in, you are just the right kind of guy for both. Barnum said one was born every minute, did you have to take a whole hours worth???
-Tig
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didnt I just post take some text off eyetechs website and post that and then post a PDF describing in detail the TeronCX... I think I have proof... if you dont like what you read then just say you dont like it... in any case if anyone isnt bieng 'truthful' with 'proof' its eyetech for claiming something that isnt true...
At the time of when the FAQ was written, yes it was true.
Now focus on the issue here; have Eyetech, or have Eyetech not made any modifications themselves to the originally acquired Teron CX design from MAI?
Like I said; you have no proof that these modifications are not made by Eyetech. Pointing at the new Teron CX design which has the same specifications is no proof of that.
Atleast I have proof that these new Teron CX specifications has been implemented after Eyetech did their modifications. How could Eyetech possibly steal a design that didn't even exist yet?
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I "think" (with extremely high plausability) that means revision 2.0. The MAI board has been improved *after* Eyetech did their modifications to the previous revision
well why dont you prove something for a change instead of telling me to get proof and go link hunting when what I show you disagrees with what your saying?
I think it's pretty funny you insinuate that I'm lying when I show various links to both partys websites showing that the 'TeronCX" and the 'AmigaOne' are identical in hardware... If you can prove otherwise then find.. but if your saying im spreading 'FUD" then why dont you prove it?.. you insinuate I'm a liar and such well hey...prove it..
I proved my point...you prove yours.
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you have no proof that these modifications are not made by Eyetech. Pointing at the new Teron CX design which has the same specifications is no proof of that.
again claiming I have no proof... I have no proof Jesus christ didnt make that mainboard... fact is the TeronCX and the AmigaOne are identical mainboards...and eyetech has bogus information on their website..
Atleast I have proof that these new Teron CX specifications has been implemented after Eyetech did their modifications
and what proof is that samface? do you have a 'date' ?... eyetech is no proof since their 'spec' could have been for TeronCX R2...
At the time of when the FAQ was written, yes it was true.
do you have any proof of this?... since your so big on insinuating I'm a liar.. why dont you back that up...and prove that eyetech did indeed write an FAQ about a board they engineered and not a TeronCX R2 board or whatever?...
I havent even been able to see if there was an R1 and that the R2 isnt the 'only' TeronCX ever made... we havent established that as fact yet...and you've moved on to claiming you proved that eyetech engineered it and all sorts of stuff...this is getting funny to watch...but then again what should I have expected?
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E
and what proof is that samface? do you have a 'date' ?... eyetech is no proof since their 'spec' could have been for TeronCX R2...
What happened to your eyes, man? Have you problems reading? Let's quote *myself*:
If you look at this (http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease081302.html) announcement on MAI's homepage, then you'll have the proof that the improvements to the MAI board has been made after Eyetech implemented theirs.
That announcement is dated: August 13, 2002
According to Eyetech's A1 website here: http://www.eyetech.co.uk/amigaone/
the FAQ was last updated the 20th of June.
Proof enough?
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yeah proof enough that the original arguement the troll who started this stated is bogus...the TeronCX is identical to the A1...
http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease081302.html (http://www.mai.com/news&events/PressRelease081302.html)
nowhere here does it say Eyetech engineered anything
furthermore it also proves that eyetech's site has bogus info for not bieng updated properly.
This news update pages dosent even say changes where made to the TeronCX ... it dosent say the name eyetech on the whole page from what I see here.. and it certinly dosent give them any credit for engineering anything.... perhaps eyetech suggested things?
I think the main point wich is perfectly clear here..is that you and the above person who posted that they where 'differant' are entirely wrong and they are indeed the same... whoever engineered/suggest what...dosent change that.. their identical.. and thats a fact.
PS:editing a post and quoting yourself although cute dosent change the reality that you editied and added your 'link' in... in a vain attempt to make me look stupid...
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Which part of this has confused you into believing that Eyetech is doing is anything more then changing boot proms???
Which part has confused you into thinking differently? The part where it says that they will distribute boards *based* on the Teron CX/PX design?
Hint: When something is "based" on another, it's actually indicating that it's not entirely the same.
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Yes, the "AmigaOne G3SE" is "just" a TeronCX board, and the "AmigaOne XE" is "just" a TeronPX board.
I put the "just" in quotation marks, because of the "so what?" factor.
Eyetech is "just" a distributor of Mai Logic's products. Eyetech, or other distributors, have nothing at all to do with design, development or upgrading of the boards. As Mai produce newer revisions, they're made available to the distributors. Is there something strange about that? So Mai made their latest "commercial" revision of the TeronCX, recently presented by its designer, penguinppc.org and Terrasoft (YDL) at LinuxWorld earlier this year, and now this is the board that will be sold to Eyetech's end customers. So what?
Since there are no more Amigas, only whatever hardware that gets licensed, I don't understand why some people WANT the hardware to somehow be made "special," when all that means are lower production volumes, separate distribution lines, higher prices and less competition.
In the AmigaOS case, the hardware it'll be allowed to run on is made "special" only by means of a dongle, a licensed trademark and distribution restrictions. There's no technical reason or advantage involved.
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At some point eyetech adviced people to check out MAI pages to very that TeronCX ios not identical to AmigaOneG3-SE. I checked it at that time and it was true. For example TeronCX had ATA66 while AmigaOne had ATA 100 and while AmigaOne was able to use both PCI4 and AGP at the same time, TeronCX was not capable to do it.
I have the PDF lying somewhere, but I do not care enough to upload it anywhere.
If TeronCX specs have changed to meet AmigaOneG3-SE specs ... it just shows that AmigaOne is a evolution of the original TeronCX and MAI decided to produce only the improved version in the future...
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nowhere here does it say Eyetech engineered anything
And nowhere does it say that the AmigaOne is using this design.
furthermore it also proves that eyetech's site has bogus info for not bieng updated properly.
Why should they update information about another product which doesn't affect or has anything to do with the AmigaOne? Neither is anything bogus as you have yet to proof that Eyetech hasn't modified the original Teron CX design rather than making use of the revision 2 design of Teron CX. To me; it could just as well have been MAI who has made use of Eyetech's improvements. I mean, they are partners after all. Also, I don't know if MAI would really accept Eyetech's behaviour if what you say would be true.
You're reasoning is very odd, my friend. I mean, if I'm riding a bike and at the same time telling everyone that I am riding a bike, would that turn into a lie the moment I step off the bike? No, it was true at the moment of when I said it and it's the same with Eyetech's website.
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Thank you ksk. That's exactly what I'm trying to tell these people. But then, I think we're both wasting our time on these guys, they seem to be blinded by Amiga Inc. hatred or something. Just look at their arguments getting more and more desperate... :roll:
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I love a good pissing contest!
This is like which came first the chicken or the egg!
Who gives a ####!
Loki
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Glaucus wrote:
I must ask how you are so confident about the above quote. Just because a MB has the same chipset and feature set does not mean it's the same MB. Unless you've had all the MBs side by side and performed exhaustive tests to compare their performance and reliability then you really can't say what you are saying above.
You dont have to compare them with exhaustive testing when they are the same board/artwork. The press release from Teron is pretty cut and dry. The board shown at Linuxworld is the same shown as an "Amiga One" at WOASE, they may have different BIOS/Bootprom (Fleecy says it does, but I trust fleecy less then the distance I can throw his punk ass around), but Eyetech didnt design or manufacture the board. Buy them, change proms (maybe) sell them, thats what they do.
-Tig
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samface wrote:
Which part has confused you into thinking differently? The part where it says that they will distribute boards *based* on the Teron CX/PX design?
Hint: When something is "based" on another, it's actually indicating that it's not entirely the same.
Double Hint, it doesnt say that it says:
"...distribute production systems based on the Teron CX and PX designs to the Amiga market worldwide."
triple hint, it says production systems not boards.
-Tig
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Eyetech is "just" a distributor of Mai Logic's products. Eyetech, or other distributors, have nothing at all to do with design, development or upgrading of the boards.
Explain to me this:
1. How come the improved revision of the MAI Teron CX design didn't show up on MAI's homepage until 2 months after the Teron CX *based* AmigaOne design?
2. How come MAI accepts Eyetech giving out this as official information on their website? I mean, they even has links to Eyetech's website on their own, don't tell me they haven't noticed.
3. Hasn't even Bill McEwan himself declared you a liar already? I read three or four "untrue" statements from him as a reply to your FUD about them and their licensing policies in an interview on ExtremeTech recently. He also said that he will "set the record straight" and reply to that statement you made in their forums. Perhaps you should stay low for a while before you have that reply? I mean, atleast you know that they've heard you now so there's no need to keep shouting about it anymore.
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it says production systems not boards.
..and the difference is? Meaning?
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ksk wrote:
If TeronCX specs have changed to meet AmigaOneG3-SE specs ... it just shows that AmigaOne is a evolution of the original TeronCX and MAI decided to produce only the improved version in the future...
"Old" TeronCX = "Old" AmigaOne G3SE
"New" TeronCX = "New" A1 G3SE, as per the specs officially listed by Eyetech
And?
"AmigaOne" is a trademark used by one distributor for his dongled Teron boards. There's no evolution one way or the other. Back when Redhouse said that people should check out Mai's site, then the site still listed the specs of the "evaluation" ("old") Teron CX, and naturally not the not-yet-released-at-that-time "commercial" ("new") TeronCX that Eyetech will be distributing.
Again, it seems like Eyetech somehow feels they have to be ashamed or something over distributing somebody else's stuff, and it seems like some people feel they need something "special."
"It's not the same - it's special - lalalala I can't hear you lalala"
WTF, it's GOOD that the hardware is the same. That's about the only thing that's still good in the current hardware situation, despite this compulsory licensing crap, that nothing has to be changed on third party hardware design-wise. Remove that compulsory licensing crap, and things would even start to make sense.
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see samface it comes down to you taking the words of one man over the logic of many others... he said alot of things.. he may not directly lie but he sure spins truth... for example
ET: After our news story, we had a pretty strong posting on our website. Our member said that Amiga OS "will apply some form of hardware-license mechanism, a dongle to his hardware."
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
ET: And that if you want AmigaOS, "you're not allowed to buy it. You have to buy a new Teron board."
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
ET: and that "Amiga Inc. has nothing to do with AmigaOS"
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
if you take that verbatim you wind up with some fairly twisted ideas.... IE:that AOS4 isnt bound to the A1/the you dont need an A1 to run AOS4/that it has no rom/dongle/etc/
and also that A.inc develops AOS4... all of wich are arguably untrue...
claiming some sort of twisted 'retrospective' TeronCX isnt A1 is defying logic... that right on Mia's website they sell 'the TerconCX" wich is identical to 'AmigaOne' ... wich is the basic point of this...but i guess that slipped by...
running around calling everyone else liars and trying to make them look stupid through trickery dosent change this... it's a writtin in stone fact that the TeronCX (current model) is the 'amigaone'...
I once read about a company that trumped itself up via preemtive suggestions to hardware vendors IE: hey motorola why dont you make a 100mhz PPC chip.... then a few months later.. going by moores law...motorola makes a 100mhz PPC chip... so the company can declare 'they made it to our specs!!!' even though the product was entirely agnostic of the company and it's bearing had not been effected by them whatsoever..
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..and the difference is? Meaning?
do you understand prototype .v. production?... like when they make watches...they do models of them first then they produce a handful of 'very expensive' prototypes IE:TeronCX's thousands of dollars pricetag.
it's in production... thats what companys do when they make something in 'mass' and save money on it... IE:Intel processors..
If intel ran a whole facility to make 1 chip it would cost alot more then if they make 100.000 chips or a million chips...the prices goes down as the volume goes up....
and it's kinda funny how the 'non-prototype' TeronCX is going into production.
I hope you grasp the idea of volume production .v. prototype.
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samface wrote:
it says production systems not boards.
..and the difference is? Meaning?
Do you really not know??? A system includes a whole lot more then a motherboard, or are you just argueing to argue??? Samface the two boards are the same, they may have different BIOS/PROMS, but the board that Eyetech has on there website, the board at WOASE, and the one shown at LinuxWorld are the same PCB, same part load (sans processor) etc. Do you honestly believe that by amazing coincidence, R565 is next to pin 1 of the processor on both boards??? That seems a pretty big coincidence, what do you think. Eyetech is distributing (you do know what that means right) products for Mai, that by definition means they dont MAKE those products they buy them and then sell them to end users and resellers. Eyetech and Amiga are talking around the board being different (ie though its only a different BIOS) because they dont want people to buy much cheaper MAI systems and convert them into Amiga One's.
-Tig
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samface wrote:
Explain to me this:
1. How come the improved revision of the MAI Teron CX design didn't show up on MAI's homepage until 2 months after the Teron CX *based* AmigaOne design?
A distributor announces that they will distribute a newer revision of a board which the designer has not yet presented on his own site. So? Why are you wondering? Why Mai waited to present it until LinuxWorld? Ask Mai's marketing people, I have only asked they guy who designed all Mai boards.
2. How come MAI accepts Eyetech giving out this as official information on their website? I mean, they even has links to Eyetech's website on their own, don't tell me they haven't noticed.
Technically, Eyetech wasn't outright lying on their site. When they wrote "this is not the TeronCX," Mai had not yet started distribution of the "commercial" TeronCX (and neither had Eyetech or anyone else, and only a few people in "the community" had even heard of Mai and the Terons, it was easy to get away with for the time being). It might also be that Eyetech thought that their dongle ROM disqualified the board from being a TeronCX any longer. It was just bending the truth a bit here and a bit there. An "Amiga" trademark apparently makes a whole lot of people swallow a whole lot of things
3. Hasn't even Bill McEwan himself declared you a liar already? I read three or four "untrue" statements from him as a reply to your FUD about them and their licensing policies in an interview on ExtremeTech recently. He also said that he will "set the record straight" and reply to that statement you made in their forums. Perhaps you should stay low for a while before you have that reply? I mean, atleast you know that they've heard you now so there's no need to keep shouting about it anymore.
Ah, yes the ET.com interview! That was a riot! :D
Seriously, you apparently being a proponent of the compulsory licensing/dongling/bundling restrictions should be having problems with McEwen stating that they don't exist. I also wonder what both Eyetech and Mai say about having the Teron/"AmigaOne" boards suddenly declared an AInc design and spec.
That interview was an embarrassment to the interviewer and the interviewee, nobody else, and I honestly expect you to agree with me on that point. One has to look hard to find anything in there that has any connection to reality.
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agreed that interview was just out and out funny... sad thing is some people with low IQ's in the PC general computing world might believe it and try to buy an A1 based upon what was said there...only to find it is ROM/Dongled..AOS4 wasnt made by A.inc... and the board is a generic TeronCX and dosent say Ainc/Eyetech anywhere on it....
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mips_proc wrote:
agreed that interview was just out and out funny... sad thing is some people with low IQ's in the PC general computing world might believe it and try to buy an A1 based upon what was said there...only to find it is ROM/Dongled..AOS4 wasnt made by A.inc... and the board is a generic TeronCX and dosent say Ainc/Eyetech anywhere on it....
I own the name AmigaOne so what do they own that is the real question. :-D
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"Old" TeronCX = "Old" AmigaOne G3SE
"New" TeronCX = "New" A1 G3SE, as per the specs officially listed by Eyetech
"Old" AmigaOne G3SE??? Please share whatever you're smokin'...
Again, there was no revision 2 of the Teron CX when the A1 G3SE was announced and the specifications for the two boards did not match back then. Now MAI has a revised version which matches the one of the A1 G3SE (which has had no changes to the specs since then), what makes you think the A1 was based on that revised version???
Proof it or stop trolling, Seehund.
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prototype .v. production samface... you obviousely dont get it though... the old A1 was the prototype TeronCX...the new A1 is the production TeronCX
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So I wonder what it is that would make all of these "It's not really an amiga!!!!" people happy?
Let me imagine...
-A new AMIGA video chipset with all of the best features of NV20+ and Radeon 9xxx, plus BACKWARD AGA COMPATIBILITY!!!
-some bus more advanced/faster than PCI-X, that transmits 40 GB/s
-Audigy+ level audio,
-Optical chip interconnects,
-USB 2.0, Firewire
-Amiga-specific keyboards and mice,
-A new, incompatible DVD/RW format (which would be faster and more 'elegant'), so we can be different and better
-Brainwave detection software so you can think instead of type
In short, (mostly)stuff that you can't buy on a PC Motherboard, but would be so frickin' cool that no PC user would be able to resist buying... if the price were anywhere near reasonable.
Unfortunately it wouldn't be, because AMIGA would have to do all of the R&D, engineering, production ramp-up, marketing, sales and support. Which means that they'd have to price the board at TWICE (or more) the price of an A1. Not to mention the fact that such an effort costs HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS, which Amiga has a mere sub-fraction of in the bank.
I cherish the idea of Amiga hardware being different, but not at the cost of being able to buy one. This isn't 1985 anymore, kids.
If amiga wants to control their platform and keep it consistent(one of the aims of making a "custom" MB in the first place), they don't need to build a motherboard that has every possible unique feature on it. They need to spec one that works well and has acceptable speed and features. THEN, when they have a little more money in their pocketses (sorry, J.R.R.), they can design something more like what the naysayers are looking for.
Remember, the idea for OS5 is to be hardware-independent so you can use whatever type of motherboard you like. Be happy that you can buy something called an Amiga, and not a windows box that you run an emulation on.
Don't like it? Build your own and find out how difficult/expensive it is to create a hardware platform from scratch like you suggest Amiga Inc. do. Then come back and let us all know how far you got.
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Here's an interesting question for you. In these days of game systems with 60-frame animation and surround sound, what would it take to impress people -- 3D? For something to be as far ahead of everything else as the original Amiga was when it was introduced would take something truly fantastic, something not invented yet. Is it really even reasonable to expect such a thing from any computer?
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Eyetech are a complete joke and most other amiga shops are a complete joke, They get standard hardware stick a "Works with amiga" badge on it and sell it for something daft like 6 - 8 x the price for exactly the same product just because it works on the amiga,
Just look at the prices of PCI cards, cables, cdrw drives,dvd drives, ide harddrives, ide leads and other standard every day hardware on eyetechs website and see how pathetic the waste of time amiga shops hide behind the "Works on amiga" nonsence just to try and screw the obsessed die hards out of silly money.
And with eyetechs shoddy tactics it would not supprise me if the A1 board was actually a cheapish board with some little modifications then they bang a extra 200 EUR,GBP because they know the die hards will by any old tat just because it will run AOS.
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wouldnt that make all the more sense to bring their OS onto it's platform? to 'compete' with it?
That's not what is being argued here. In fact, if it were up to me, if i was incharge of Amiga Inc I'd go out of my way to make it run on the Pegasos just to make it harder for MorphOS. I would buy a bunch of pegasos boards, license the AmigaOS to myself and sell Pegasos boards with the OS4 BootBIOS myself along with OS4. That would maintain complete control of the license agreament and still position the platform to compete with MorphOS on it's home turf. In the end Thendic would be begging me for a license deal of their own.
- Mike
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Hey mips_proc, just thought I'd mention that your avatar looks like a cowboy holding a flag in one hand a cock blowing it's load in another. That's a bit weird, shouldn't the cock be between the guy's legs?!? 8-)
- Mike
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for me it isnt a question of bieng impressed....I honestly dont think there is anything amiga could do to impress anyone at this stage it's all been done or is bieng done PC's with Windows...
I like AmigaOS and what would make me happy is AOS X86...or at leat AOS-PPC (on whatever PPC hardware you can hack it onto).
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cock blowing it's load in another. That's a bit weird, shouldn't the cock be between the guy's legs?!?
maybe you could draw that and It would be more interesting comming from you...you could stick a 'boing ball' on him and sell him for a few bucks to a zealot who likes Amiga/Stick Man/Perverse art...
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@Glaucus,
Hey mips_proc, just thought I'd mention that your avatar looks like a cowboy holding a flag in one hand a .........<>
That's suppose to be a joke ? Or to give the moderators something to do ?
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>"Old" TeronCX = "Old" AmigaOne G3SE
No. Old Teron CX was the board demonstrated by Eyetech in spring 2002, they did not insist that it was the final AmigaOneG3-SE, I've read Alan admitting that it is a TeronCX. At some point they might have called it a developer board, or a prototype, though... (or the protos were really the new revision already, incapable of running TurboLinux)
I think those ~15 dev boards that were shipped during summer were already with ATA100 etc, while MAI still listed the old Teron at their web page.
>"New" TeronCX = "New" A1 G3SE, as per the specs officially listed by Eyetech
No. New TeronCX + dongle is the AmigaOneG3-SE. There is no old AmigaOneG3-SE. The specs have been the same for A1 since AmigaOne the PCI daughtercard was discarded.
(it might be that new teronCX would not have existed without A1G3SE developer guys / eyetech interest)
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$600 u.s. would buy me a Toshiba e740.
is amigaDE there?
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Even if the AmigaOneSE/XE boards are identical to the Teron CX/PX boards, does it really matter? I mean, what difference does it make?
I guess that this is just the usual nitpicking from the never-happy-with-anything crowd..
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samface wrote:
"Old" AmigaOne G3SE??? Please share whatever you're smokin'...
I roll my own and I smoke a pipe, but there's nothing besides tobacco in it... ;)
Yes, the old A1 G3SE. The one bandied about on various shows/occations, with a "don't worry, it's the 'developer' version" disclaimer. The one photographed over and over again. The VT82C686A SB one. The TeronCX "evaluation board."
Again, there was no revision 2 of the Teron CX when the A1 G3SE was announced and the specifications for the two boards did not match back then.
Samface, "announced" does not equal "for sale" or even "in production."
The "commercial" revision of the TeronCX is the "new" A1 G3SE. I don't see why that is so controversial, or why you consider it's "trolling" to say it.
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So much blah blah blah but in the end we're all followers of the AMIGA.
Want a proof? This is a site for amigans! Full of amigans!
Well some are disguised, but they don't stop babling about AMIGA.
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Graak wrote:
Even if the AmigaOneSE/XE boards are identical to the Teron CX/PX boards, does it really matter? I mean, what difference does it make?
Exactly. What's the fuss about? Where's the controversy that some people see? Why is it taboo in some groups to say it? Why were Eyetech trying to deny it initially?
I don't want any "special" hardware, there are no more Amigas. I want to buy AmigaOS and install it on hardware of my choice from the vendor I choose. People who want to buy AmigaOS shouldn't have to give a crap about hardware trademarks and licenses, only valid things like price, performance, availability and compatibility.
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Have you helped saving AmigaOS and a free PPC hardware market today?
Nice page, comments on there are spot on,
Some nice quotes
"Please don't kill the Amiga off with restricted hardware!"
"yes this Amigaone is a DEAD DUCK, Who is going to pay loads of money for a slow restricted piece of junk!!!!!!!!!"
"Amiga is a software company, it makes no sense to restrict the hardware choices."
"get your arse in to 2002 instead of the 90`s"
"If AmigaOS wants to live, it has to be flexible...."
"Just give the buyer/user a great OS that will run on the users' choice of hardware."
"This will definately put the final nail in the Amigas coffin"
"if you want the AmigaOS market to grow, then please use every chance to!!"
"Your being crazy, THEWORLDS going open, and YOUR closing the doors!!"
"Is this what I've been waiting for all these years? Don't strangle a market that's already choking..."
"Don't alienate your target audience!"
"I'd just like to run os4 on the fastest ppc hardware i can find. nobody likes to be limited."
"You sure took a long time to kill the Amiga. Bastards"
"It's not 1980's any more,"
"I won't buy closed hardware."
"No crippled computer wanted"
"Please don't kill the Amiga (again) before it's had a chance!"
"Please, don't kill what's left of the Amiga community, please be more cooperative"
"compatibility is the future, proprietary is the past"
"Shooting yourselfs in the foot is stupid and will finish what little is left of Amiga once and forever"
-
maybe you could draw that and It would be more interesting comming from you...you could stick a 'boing ball' on him and sell him for a few bucks to a zealot who likes Amiga/Stick Man/Perverse art...
Hey, let's not forget I'm not the one who drew it! ;)
I'm just buggin ya, although unfortunately I can no longer look at that avatar and not burst out laughing.... Although bak_2_amiga's avatar is by far the best! I'm gonna have to send that to my ex, she loves Linux!
Hmmm... Perhaps I will have to come up with my own "art".
- Mike
-
Graak wrote:
Even if the AmigaOneSE/XE boards are identical to the Teron CX/PX boards, does it really matter? I mean, what difference does it make?
Why does it matter??
1) This thread was started by someone saying they werent the same board, to everyone who knows they are, thats a pretty silly statement, those who believe in the divinity of Eyetech continue to argue the point that they are different. Apparently if you are an Eyetech employee, touch a board and say in a load commanding voice "You are an Amiga" it becomes so, otherwise you are just an unclean Linux board.
2) It points out the lies told to the Amiga Community by Eyetech in relation to the cost of these boards. Since they arent designing them or building them, it is silly that they are much more expensive with the Eyetech Rom then without the Eyetech rom. At LinuxWorld is became quite apparent that Eyetech is making a pretty good premium from each board.
3) Makes it quite apparent that the OS is becoming dongalized (ala XP, though worse) when only "Eyetech" Teron boards will run the OS. I am very curious how we are going to see 4.0 on the Phase5 boards as I am sure the folks behind the Teron rom dongle arent going to just let you install 4.0 on your PPC amiga without some hoop to jump through.
-Tig
-
@ Seehund and company
Amiga inc is a company
Eyetech is a company
Hyperion is a company
Companies need to make money
This is how the world runs whether you like it or not.
Its easy to see the world through rose tinted glasses and sigh "if only this or that was true blah blah blah wouldnt it be an ideal world?"
Cant you just wake up. Why have you got anything against those companies trying to make money.
Licencing someone elses product and shipping it with you own name is not a new concept in any industry.
If I want to buy an Amiga branded Teron board then what is your problem. I am more than enough capable of making my own purchasing decisions without some Anti-everything zealots preaching down my neck "Oooh dont buy this !" "don't buy that"
"You are getting ripped off!"They are killing amiga!!
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!
I vote with my wallet and will make whomsoever I choose a little richer with my hard earned cash.
How many copies of OS4 do you think would really sell if at this point it was made available on any PPC platform??? It is hardly a revolutionary OS that people are going to rush out to buy . Its a limited interest OS aimed at providing the beginning of an upgrade path to the existing userbase. If it is succesful then and only then can you expect them to broaden their horizons to target the mature PC userbase.
Its money that allows a company to create a product that can compete in the marketplace and what you propose would kill these companies before they recouped a single penny of their investment.
They have much more money and time invested in the Amiga platform on a commercial level than any of you have.
So no THEY are not out to get us but your rants ARE beginning to wear me down.
Stop trying heartlessly an selfishly to abort an unborn foetus.
I am not really a frequent visitor of Amiga sites anymore and I am not one to get involved in flame wars but I just had to get this out of my system.
-
This bears repeating:
IT'S THE SAME BOARD!
So go stick that in your whatever and do whatever to it.
Crap, how did this thread get so long?
-
I roll my own and I smoke a pipe, but there's nothing besides tobacco in it... ;)
Hmmm... How do you know that? I mean, perhaps the tobacco company is only the trademark owner of what you think is a tobacco company? Perhaps they have outsourced the tobacco cultivation using certain licensing policies which restricts the cultivators from growing "real" tobacco. Ever thought of that?
By this little sarcasm, I just wanted to point out that by your reasoning, how do we know if any brand or product is "real"?
The "commercial" revision of the TeronCX is the "new" A1 G3SE. I don't see why that is so controversial, or why you consider it's "trolling" to say it.
Because there are no changes in the A1 G3SE specifications since Escena got out of the picture. Eyetech got a hold of a MAI evaluation board and modified it to suit their needs. Like Eyetech said, the original Teron CX wasn't even made for mass production in the first place.
Also, the newer Teron CX design is not the first "commercial" version, the so called "evaluation" board was even possible to buy in as large quantity as you wanted with prices in proportion to the quantity (more boards ---> lower price per board). So, that version was just as "commercial" as this new version. However, after Eyetech became a partner, they now have much cheaper boards with better specifications due to a more mass production friendly design. Your theory simply fails to fit into any logic here as MAI was never interested in creating a mass production adopted design in the first place. This was even explained very clearly on their website as the initial design was more of a proof of concept thing for their chipset.
Your speculations are nothing but just that as long as you don't have proof. Show me proof of your theories or stop trolling. I mean, why should we simply believe you when official information as well as facts speaks an entirely different language? Because you say so?
Please don't give me that "I've spoken to the developer of the MAI boards" crap as I don't believe in a single word of it. Even if you would have spoken to *one of the people* (please note the use of plural) who made the design, his words would be twisted around by you into suiting your agenda anyway. Kind of like the way you twist Amiga Inc.'s or Bill McEwan's words around.
That reminds me, I would like your reply to that thread which we never finished off properly on slashdot. You can reply here as I can simply cross post from there:
>> The AmigaOne is an "Amiga" wether you think of
>> it as such or not.
>
> Oh yeah? And my daddy is stronger than your
> daddy! Lalalala-I-can't-hear-you!
>
> What the hell kind of argument was that
> supposed to be?
You say "no new Amigas" and then my reply is that it is per definition new Amigas as they own the trademark and noone but them define what an "Amiga" is.
> An Amiga was a home computer system that ran
> AmigaOS. The same company made both the
> hardware and the OS. The hardware was a custom
> job, as all computers back then, and the OS was
> dependent on custom chips and tightly coupled
> to the Amiga hardware. The hardware and the OS
> were made for eachother.
That is what *you* think an "Amiga" is but like I said, the meaning of the trademark isn't defined by you.
Sure, what you're talking about *used* to be the definition. But then, please wake up and realize that the definition has been redefined.
> Those days are over. THANK GOD! Unless some
> industry giant or inhumanly rich hardware
> genius comes along and pulls out the fastest,
> most advanced and cheapest hardware anyone's
> ever seen - and can keep up with development
> and pricing - then "new Amiga hardware" is
> something to fear.
Now that is per definition FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt), period.
> AmigaOS is all that is left today, and you
> simply cannot have avoided that nobody makes or
> is planning to make any hardware with AmigaOS
> in mind, especially not Amiga Inc. Instead
> AmigaOS will run on third party hardware. No,
> you haven't missed that.
So, are you saying that Eyetech's AmigaOne hasn't been made with AmigaOS4 in mind? Please don't even mention MAI, Eyetech wouldn't have chosen their design if it didn't suit AmigaOS4. I'm sorry but, the AmigaOne has been made available to Amiga users for one purpose and one purpose only; to run AmigaOS4.
>>> I'm sure those "AmigaOne 1200/4000"
>>> motherboards are still praised somewhere on
>>> the horribly outdated amiga.com web site.
>>
>> You should really try reading the official
>> information available from Amiga Inc. before
>> citisizing them. Your speculations are not
>> appreciated, Seehund.
> Oh well. Here [amiga.com] is my "speculation."
That is an old section of the website, of course you will find outdated information there. I'm sure even you are competent enough to find the new AmigaOne section which is here: http://os.amiga.com/products/one/
I mean, I can look at the news archive of Amiga.org or even slashdot, does the fact that they have old information mean that they are outdated? No.
> While you read it and weep, please note the old
> humourous references to an operating system
> based on "AmigaDE". It's really good for a
> laugh.
AmigaOS4.2 will have AmigaDE support. That means this information is still pretty much valid as they are talking about a future product.
> Ooooh, they've got that embarrassing old
> Zico [amiga.com] joke still up there! "AmigaOS
> will run on... ummm... a computer... with some
> processor of some kind... And a next generation
> Matrox GFX card! That's mighty important!"
You're reading the corporate part of the Amiga website, of course they present simple concepts. Why would a potential investor be interested in more details?
Anyway, all of this are parts of the former design. Try pointing your browser to http://www.amiga.com and then navigate from there. If anything is outdated, then it is your bookmarks.
Oh, BTW: AmigaOne stuff is AmigaOS4 related, not corporate related.
>> That should read; "In order for your product
>> to be officially AmigaOS4 licensed, the
>> hardware vendor has to:".
> Which is synonymous in this case. What the ####
> is your problem?
Let me put it like this:
That should be "What the COPULATING is your problem?".
If you still can't see it, let's just end this argument right now.
>> AmigaOS vendor? Please elaborate, I have no
>> idea of what you're refering to. You do NOT
>> have to distribute AmigaOS4 with your licensed
>> product.
> "we will require, as part of the licence
> conditions, that a copy of Amiga OS is
> purchased with all boards sold that are capable
> of running it." [amiga.com]
Oh for christ sake! Of course I meant that you can sell the very same piece of hardware either as AmigaOS4 licensed (distributed with AmigaOS4 and the hardware verification bits) or unlicensed (without AmigaOS4 and the hardware verification bits). This means that even if you license your hardware, you can still sell it without AmigaOS4 just as long as you don't distribute any AmigaOS4 hardware verification binaries with it. Licensing your hardware does NOT restrict your hardware to be distributed with AmigaOS only, period.
> I've had it with you. I have said THE EXACT
> SAME ####ING THING as quoted above FOR EIGHT
> DAMN MONTHS, and I even said IN THE VERY SAME
> POST that you're replying to, and you start
> babbling about me failing to understand?
Yes, you are failing to understand the difference in what we're both saying. Things isn't always about what you say but rather *how* you say it. Saying "you have to be an AmigaOS vendor in order to license your hardware" is the same thing as "hardware with the AmigaOS4 hardware verification binaries installed must be distributed with AmigaOS4", but at the same time it isn't. You're saying the right things in the wrong way and I do believe this is intentional.
> Amiga Inc has NOTHING to do with AmigaOS apart
> from the trademark and license.
They OWN the AmigaOS, isn't it relevant enough? They provide support for AmigaOS3.9 on classic Amiga hardware today and they will be providing support for AmigaOS4.0 on AmigaOne hardware tomorrow.
> "Amiga Inc ALLOWS anyone to become an AMIGA
> HARDWARE manufacturer"? And you compare the
> AmigaOS situation with Apple's OWN HARDWARE?
> And you top it off with basically saying "it
> doesn't suck because it sucks less than another
> totally unrelated and incomparable and
> irrelevant thing that really sucks"?
Exactly. I mean, if they suck more, why don't you have a petition against them instead?
> Begone. You made me SHOUT. My brain hurts.
Don't blame me because you are emotionally involved.
I would also like a reply to a specific contribution I made to a discussion we had on ANN the other day (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1036645965&category=web&start=301#message306):
>> have the thought that this is actually causing more damage than helping ever
>> crossed your mind, Seehund?
>
> Damage to whom or what, and how? What is it you think could cause damage to
> something? Actually selling the software, or just people saying that the
> software should be available for sale?
So, claiming that:
* the AmigaOne is not an "Amiga" computer at all
* Amiga Inc. isn't interested in the Amiga desktop market at all
* their hardware licensing policies will kill the Amiga market
* they are repeating the mistakes of commodore
all over every computer related news website on the net isn't the slightest little bit of damaging PR? I mean, if you haven't followed the Amiga the last decade, why should you even bother looking at it if this is the information you get? I'm telling you: IT ISN'T HELPING YOUR CAUSE! It will only make people look away and most definitly contribute to your doom predictions. And if this happens, like the little prick that you are, you will probably go around telling everyone how right you were.
Now, I could make this post ALOT longer if I wanted to, as there are ALOT of flaws in your (internet) widely spread theories. I normally don't bother with people like you but your actions has simply gone too far. This Anti Amiga Inc. PR of yours simply must be stopped before you kill the little chance that we have left, if any at all exits.
Surprise me by replying with perfectly sensible logic. No, that would more than just surprise me, it would probably give me a fatal shock.
-
GadgetMaster wrote:
@ Seehund and company
Companies need to make money
[megasnip]
I'll try to keep this short... ;) To me it seems like you have totally misinterpreted everything that I have said so far (dunno what the "& co." people have said). IMO, the compulsory dongling/licensing/bundling/yadayada restrictions applied to AmigaOS is CONTRADICTORY to actually SELLING your product, AmigaOS. It's an obstacle in the way of seeing even a moderate commercial success and future for AmigaOS. Some try to excuse it with that the obstacle is easy to overcome, but there's no valid reason to have that obstacle there at all.
I don't care about any hardware distributor in particular, Eyetech or any other. It's just hardware. There's no reason to why consumers are supposed to play charity to one vendor over another just because of licensed trademarks. That, if anything, is looking at the world through rose-tinted glasses. It's simply incompatible with commercially sound practices in what IMO fortunately is a largely capitalistic world.
Yes, people can and will vote for products with their wallets, like things should be on a free market. There is however a big fat reason right there to make people "vote" for something else than AmigaOS, and that reason needs to be removed before "the election."
-
This Anti Amiga Inc. PR of yours simply must be stopped before you kill the little chance that we have left, if any at all exits.
I think you give those guys too much credit. Btw, How's Pro-Pos doing?
- Mike
-
I'll try to keep this short... ;) To me it seems like you have totally misinterpreted everything that I have said so far (dunno what the "& co." people have said). IMO, the compulsory dongling/licensing/bundling/yadayada restrictions applied to AmigaOS is CONTRADICTORY to actually SELLING your product, AmigaOS. It's an obstacle in the way of seeing even a moderate commercial success and future for AmigaOS. Some try to excuse it with that the obstacle is easy to overcome, but there's no valid reason to have that obstacle there at all.
Apple does it and they get away with it. MacOS only runs (or is supposed to run) on hardware built by Apple. Amiga is actually a fair bit more open about it as anyone can build the hardware, all they need to do is get a license to allow the OS to run on it. It's a dongle, but I can't totally blame them for it either. Realistically, a legit owner of an AmigaOne and OS4 would have nothing to worry about. In fact they would never even know about it.
Having said that, Amiga Inc and Hyperion are small enough to adapt and change policy rather quickly. If it turns out this dongle aproach is counter productive it can easily be dropped. As a consumer it's definetly not something I'd lose sleep over.
- Mike
-
It's an obstacle in the way of seeing even a moderate commercial success and future for AmigaOS.
Now all this boils down to your twisted view about Amiga Inc. beeing a software only company. Well, let's try setting a few things straight here:
Amiga is a platform. That includes hardware as well as software. Amiga Inc. has no intentions of changing that. However, they did decide to outsource the hardware production part, but that's it. Their product is still a complete computer, not just an OS.
I do not share your view that they would have greater success if they simply made a PPC OS which would run on anything POP. You see, joe avarage don't even want to nor know how to install the OS onto the hardware himself. For this reason, why sell the products seperately at all? I mean, when you bundle the OS with the hardware as one, won't that basicly kill piracy completely? You see, I strongly believe that the "no piracy" factor is alot bigger than the "nerd who wants to build his own computer" factor.
Also, if we should learn something from the x86 market, then it is the power of the preinstalled bootstrap code. This is how Windows became such a success (surprise: not because of it's great functionality) and effectively killed the competition. Only a fool wouldn't learn from history. To me, enforcing AmigaOS to be bundled with the hardware is simply an act of survival instinct.
-
samface wrote:
Hmmm... How do you know that? I mean, perhaps the tobacco company is only the trademark owner of what you think is a tobacco company? Perhaps they have outsourced the tobacco cultivation using certain licensing policies which restricts the cultivators from growing "real" tobacco. Ever thought of that?
By this little sarcasm, I just wanted to point out that by your reasoning, how do we know if any brand or product is "real"?
To retort, I know it's tobacco, I know I like the taste of it, and I know the price is agreeable to my wallet. That's all I need to know. Maybe it's "Drum" that has sold some stock of tobacco to "Samson," and I'm actually smoking "Drum" instead of "Samson."
So what? The trademark doesn't matter to me there, I still know that it's tobacco, I like the taste of it, and I like the price of it.
It's hardware, it can run my OS, I like it's features and price, I don't give a sh|t about what trademark somebody has slapped on it as long as those criteria are fulfilled. I shouldn't have to, there's no technical reason. Hardware is a commodity much like tobacco.
The "commercial" revision of the TeronCX is the "new" A1 G3SE. I don't see why that is so controversial, or why you consider it's "trolling" to say it.
Because there are no changes in the A1 G3SE specifications since Escena got out of the picture. Eyetech got a hold of a MAI evaluation board and modified it to suit their needs. Like Eyetech said, the original Teron CX wasn't even made for mass production in the first place.
"Because" what?? Why is it controversial to state the fact that Eyetech is distributing the Teron CX and PX, and why is it considered trolling to say it? Also, Eyetech neither designs nor modifies any designs of any motherboards.
Also, the newer Teron CX design is not the first "commercial" version, the so called "evaluation" board was even possible to buy in as large quantity as you wanted with prices in proportion to the quantity (more boards ---> lower price per board).
Sorry, I meant "consumer release," that's the term the guy who designed the CX used to describe it. And you have always been able to buy the "evaluation" version in single units for $300 directly from Mai, or from a VAR/distributor like Inguard.
That reminds me, I would like your reply to that thread which we never finished off properly on slashdot. You can reply here as I can simply cross post from there:
Oh, look at that, an old thread on Slashdot. Quaint. Hate to disappoint you, you "finish it off properly" instead, please. I don't know the proper procedure.
-
Btw, How's Pro-Pos doing?
Well, thank you for asking but surely you know where to find us, Glaucus? Anyway, we're fine. Major updates coming up during November so please check us out once in a while to keep yourself updated. :-)
PS. We still have a few unassigned tasks, let us know if you're up to any of them. :-) DS.
-
Glaucus wrote:
Apple does it and they get away with it. MacOS only runs (or is supposed to run) on hardware built by Apple.
You can't compare this with Apple. Apple makes, sells and makes a living on their Macs. They don't depend on anyone else to supply hardware for their OS.
In some aspects, you could compare it to how Apple killed off the clone market. Only in the AmigaOS case, there's no hardware to clone, and the OS isn't commercially attractive enough to have hardware vendors dedicate time, money or resources to adapting to the whims of an OS vendor, like Apple actually could get away with during the clone-times.
-
IMO, the compulsory dongling/licensing/bundling/yadayada restrictions applied to AmigaOS is CONTRADICTORY to actually SELLING your product, AmigaOS. It's an obstacle in the way of seeing even a moderate commercial success and future for AmigaOS. Some try to excuse it with that the obstacle is easy to overcome, but there's no valid reason to have that obstacle there at all.
I'd like to point out (again) that your problem is with the terms of Amiga Inc.'s OEM license. And the OEM license does place restriction on what hardware Amiga OS 4 can run... BUT this does not preclude licensing terms for a 'retail' or 'consumer' version not bundle with hardware (well, beyond a USB/serial/parallel dongle).
Do you concede this?
-
"Because" what?? Why is it controversial to state the fact that Eyetech is distributing the Teron CX and PX, and why is it considered trolling to say it? Also, Eyetech neither designs nor modifies any designs of any motherboards.
Now would be a good time to serve the proof, the accusations are starting to become stronger than our stomachs can digest.
And you have always been able to buy the "evaluation" version in single units for $300 directly from Mai, or from a VAR/distributor like Inguard.
That's not what their website used to say. However, no reason for bouncing the ball against that wall again...
-
Oh, look at that, an old thread on Slashdot. Quaint. Hate to disappoint you, you "finish it off properly" instead, please. I don't know the proper procedure.
Well, in case you think my arguments are incorrect, correct me with logical reasoning. It's really as simple as that. If you don't reply, then I interprete that as that you either has nothing to argue against me with or that you simply agree.
Please don't forget about that ANN quote, I'm really interested in knowing what kind of logic you use to explain that.
-
samface wrote:
Amiga is a platform. [...] Their product is still a complete computer, not just an OS.
Read less marketing. It's harmful for you.
You see, joe avarage don't even want to nor know how to install the OS onto the hardware himself.
So if Joe Average actually would be interested in a little niche OS, he'd have the option to buy a bundled and licensed "AmigaOne(TM)" system if some vendor voluntarily would feel that Joe Average would be a suitable target market. Imagine that, options.
For this reason, why sell the products seperately at all? I mean, when you bundle the OS with the hardware as one, won't that basicly kill piracy completely?
Of course not. AmigaOS will run on hardware from third parties, and no matter how much some may wish, nobody can control what happens with normal, "unlicensed" hardware. When OS4 has been out for two days, the dongle code will be cracked and it'll run on "unlicensed" hardware like Terons, and someone will hack it onto a Pegasos. Illegal copies will be the only copies running on normal hardware, even though people WANT TO BUY it. If someone gets a license for distribution with "dongled" Macs, normal Macs will run the OS within days too, and so on.
At the same time, the OS will actually be sold separately to the Amiga market for use with CS/Blizzard PPCs - without any protection.
Then we have people using the excuse "but vendors will be 'allowed' [how generous!] to use USB dongles or whatnot, ROMs are only Eyetech's solution". This is the same as trying to say that a dongle is more efficient when it's distributed by a licensed hardware vendor, than when it's sold in a shrinkwrapped OS package.
The "anti piracy" excuse is so transparent. It's only function is as a hardware-license verification mechanism, it cannot hinder software piracy.
Also, if we should learn something from the x86 market, then it is the power of the preinstalled bootstrap code.
WTF does licensing/dongling/bundling requirements have to do with bootloaders in this case? You're not trying to suggest that an AmigaOS installation should prevent dual booting are you? Or that people already using other OSes on PPC boxen cannot install AmigaOS due to bootloader issues?
-
samface wrote:
Now would be a good time to serve the proof, the accusations are starting to become stronger than our stomachs can digest.
What accusations? And why the pluralis maiestatis? I think you're pretty alone in regarding a statement like "company X does not design motherboards, they're a distributor" as an accusation! It's a damn business description.
That's not what their website used to say.
I know, I found the "$3,900" or whatever it is listed so odd that I actually e-mailed them a question about it and got a clarifying reply... A revolutionary concept, this e-mail thing.
-
ShadesOfGrey wrote:
BUT this does not preclude licensing terms for a 'retail' or 'consumer' version not bundle with hardware (well, beyond a USB/serial/parallel dongle).
Do you concede this?
No, I don't, neither does AInc in their marketing announcements nor in their (and others'...) subsequent "clarifications"; "we aren't going to sell a shrink wrap" and so on and so on.
Unless otherwise explicitly stated, this message is not meant to affirm nor deny, defend nor offend any faction within the 'Amiga' Community.
LOL! :D Excellent disclaimer! Sucks that it's apparently needed though.
-
The "anti piracy" excuse is so transparent. It's only function is as a hardware-license verification mechanism, it cannot hinder software piracy.
Eeeehh... Talk about not seeing the point. Why would anyone *want* to piracy the OS if it's bundled with the hardware? I wasn't talking about trying to hinder piracy, it's about removing the need for it through making it a part of the hardware purchase.
You see my posts without reading them, Seehund.
-
Seehund wrote:
ShadesOfGrey wrote:
BUT this does not preclude licensing terms for a 'retail' or 'consumer' version not bundle with hardware (well, beyond a USB/serial/parallel dongle).
Do you concede this?
No, I don't, neither does AInc in their marketing announcements nor in their (and others'...) subsequent "clarifications"; "we aren't going to sell a shrink wrap" and so on and so on.
Because you don't want to. It would be pretty hard admitting your mistake after collecting all those signatures for your petition and stating your disillusions as facts all over the net, over and over again, now wouldn't it, Emanuel?
I'm sorry but you've painted yourself into a corner and nothing you do will get you out of there now. Keep painting and your corner will only get smaller.
-
@Seehund
I'm so sick of your "its not an amiga" campaign that you've been raging in comments on just about every AmigaOne news story on the web.
It doesnt matter that its not designed by Amiga Inc or based on older Amiga technology. It's been badged "Amiga", and runs AmigaOS, so it's an Amiga.
Look at consoles. A gameboy advance is still a nintendo, even though its technologically far different to say, an N64.
Just shut the #### up and get over it already.
-
Sorry Samface, although I agree with some of your points, the only agenda twisting I see is by A-Inc and Craptech.
Not to say it won't be a decent product, but IT IS OBVIOUS that they are in the fine business of BS procurement, when they create the illusion that the AONE isn't dongled and OS4 would run on other systems. Maybe they didn't OUTRIGHT say it, but it sounds like good 'ol American market training to me!
@Paul_Gadd:
Right on! Eyetech's prices are a total rip...they didn't design anything, they're just profiting on cheap hardware and calling it 'special for the A-1'...I don't care what they sell and call A1, I just wish they'd all be a bit more straightforward and drop the Capn' AmeriCo attitude.
-
"we aren't going to sell a shrink wrap"
I have not seen any such declaration by Amiga Inc., Hyperion, or Eyetech. Mind telling me where this was said and by whom?
LOL! :D Excellent disclaimer! Sucks that it's apparently needed though.
Yes... Yes it is.
-
They did WHAT!?
AHAHAHHAHA!
LOL.... Tell you what, Amiga Inc has NOTHING to do
with OS4 or the AmigaONE...as BH said in the
interview, he's now the AmigaOS licence holder
and can develop it further as much as he wants.
In a previews thread it was mentioned that if
Amiga Inc. wants OS4 they'll have to buy the sources
back from Hyperion for a sum of money.
Admit it, Amiga Inc lost the control of AmigaOS,
Hyperion has it now and IMHO, it's MUCH better now
that relying on those guys.... Amiga Inc is unreliable
at best.... And about the AmigaONE, the AmigaONE
spec is Zico, the AmigaONE from eyetech doesn't
meet that. So... once again... The Eyetech AmigaONE
is NOT Amiga Inc.'s spec....
Samface, your Amiga Inc is dead for the Amiga
community. They are doing nothing for it.
I also am quite sure that they will not survive for more than a year...
-
Wrong, their name is Mentor ARC Incorporated... :)
-
The Terron CX board could use 4x PCI and AGP at
the same time, but: The AGP port would fall down
to the speed of the card in the 4th slot, so forget
AGP 2x, it would be either 1x (66mhz) or even less
(33mhz). The same is true about the AmigaONE.
There were also some probs in the BIOS that might
make what you said true, but the BIOS by itself doesn't make a different board...
-
You wish... What you say is misinformation and is
not true but I can't reveal my source...
-
The AmigaONE is what Eyetech could get from the
Terron CX *WITHOUT* changing the PCB layout.
The Terron & "AmigaONE" PCBs are the same.
-
@AmiGR:
Where do you get all this from? You're so totally disillusioned that I even don't know where to start...
Sure, Amiga Inc. just bought the name for screwing the Amiga community. This is all just a very expensive prank pulled off by Bill McEwan & Co. Whatever, man... :roll:
-
@AmiGR,
Nice to see you post so much in one go, but who are you replying/adressing ?
And saying something isn't true but not allowed to reveal your sdorce, well is a little weak argument wouldn't say ? Everybody can say; "my source tells me you are wrong, but I can't tell you my source."
-
Where do you get all this from? You're so totally disillusioned that I even don't know where to start...
:-D :-D :-D :-D
-
Samface, you know very well, that I'm in good terms
with people with a CLOSE relation to MAI... Want
another hint of how do I know it? Mind you, the
Terron boards were evaluated by those people
more than a year before Eyetech even learned about
MAI...
-
Successive Samfaced posts. I hinted about my source, not that Samface didn't know it already...
I could ask MAI themselves as well...
-
AmiGR:
"The Terron CX board could use 4x PCI and AGP at
the same time, but: The AGP port would fall down
to the speed of the card in the 4th slot, so forget
AGP 2x, it would be either 1x (66mhz) or even less
(33mhz). "
Is that the old TeronCX again?
The TeronCX presented at MAI web pages early this year could not use both AGP and PCI4 at the same time. And that's according to the pdf at MAI web site at that time.
At the same time Eyetech had current specs already at their web pages.
(not going to bother with this subject ever again)
-
Successive Samfaced posts. I hinted about my source, not that Samface didn't know it already...
Oh please, you don't even know how to spell their product name correctly. "Terron"? LOL!
-
Right on! Eyetech's prices are a total rip...they didn't design anything, they're just profiting on cheap hardware and calling it 'special for the A-1'...I don't care what they sell and call A1, I just wish they'd all be a bit more straightforward and drop the Capn' AmeriCo attitude
Spot on, Eyetech think by saying something works on a Amiga gives then the right to increase the price where they are making something crazy like 900% profit on various standard hardware which is DISGUSTING, and what more is disgusting the main die hards think Eyetech is the best thing since sliced bread and are worthy of amigans support,
The sooner Eyetech shut down or hopefully go bust the better, the amiga users do not need a shower of ####e 2 bit mickey mouse company like them GREEDY RIP OFFS on the scene,
I will not and never have supported Eyetech and never will, the quicker people stop supporting CROOKS the quicker they will DIE OFF.
Rant over
-
That was a limitation of the Softex BIOS.
-
I misspelt it a*****e...
-
I misspelt it a*****e...
At several occasions...
-
So? I don't run around ann telling people that bplan's
product is called Pegasos and not Pegasus or
PegasOS... I think that you did that mistake some times, but I'm not sure...
-
AmiGR wrote:
Samface, you know very well, that I'm in good terms
with people with a CLOSE relation to MAI... Want
another hint of how do I know it? Mind you, the
Terron boards were evaluated by those people
more than a year before Eyetech even learned about
MAI...
No, I don't. What's the people you are in good terms with? I'm asking because I really don't know. I also don't know why you claim that I would know this as it is obviously wrong.
-
I think that you did that mistake some times, but I'm not sure...
Don't accuse people of things when you're not even sure. I have no recallection of that myself and even if I would have done such a thing, was that a repeated mistake? There is a word for what you're doing here and that is "slander".
-
Yes, set your brain to thinking mode, and you'll
figure it out...
-
Ahaaaaa! You're Alkis, I see.
Well, now I know what you *claim* your sources of beeing.
-
Why would anyone *want* to piracy the OS if it's bundled with the hardware?
it will find it's way onto the internet...and get pirated by those who bought much cheaper TeronCX's direct from the maker MIA.
They want it because it's cheaper.
it's about removing the need for it through making it a part of the hardware purchase.
If I buy a cheap TeronCX now I might want MorphOS or AOS on it ? now wouldnt i?
Bundleing is one thing.... but binding is another... they dont bundle AOS+A1 they bind them....through the firmware... granted people will no doubt steal AOS anyway...due to the fact they dont want to support A.inc/etc and pay their 'amiga fees' ....but there is reason to steal AOS for some and 'binding' not bundleing wont stop it...
Dell bundles windows with it's PC... Eyetech Bind's AOS to their A1...
-
Spot on, Eyetech think by saying something works on a Amiga gives then the right to increase the price where they are making something crazy like 900% profit on various standard hardware which is DISGUSTING, and what more is disgusting the main die hards think Eyetech is the best thing since sliced bread and are worthy of amigans support,
Okay, you tell me how much a competing motherboard + equivalent CPU goes for! According to your claim that eyetech inflates their price tag by 900% I should be able to find a TeronCX + CPU for about $50 or less. Somehow I get the hint that your entire post is nothing but malakie-es! Ask AmiGR what that means!
- Mike
-
in case you think my arguments are incorrect,
you threw logic out the window long ago when you simply say 'it came from bill and he cant be a liar' ... by quoting him on ET forums...etc... thats pure unadulturated zealot propoganda...
-
It doesnt matter that its not designed by Amiga Inc or based on older Amiga technology. It's been badged "Amiga", and runs AmigaOS, so it's an Amiga.
Amiga.inc dosent design it...market it... make an OS for it...all they do is restrict it... It's as much an Amiga as my P4 system is an Amiga...if 'anything' with AOS on it can be badged an Amiga... then the A1 is no-more or 'less' an amiga then anything else... followers of the 'name only' tend to consider the Pegasos 'not an amiga' simply because AOS wont legally run on it...when in fact it has the right just as much "IF NOT MORE SO" then the A1... IE:DCE making Amiga parts for years (i concede some of them have been complete #### of course)
-
it will find it's way onto the internet...and get pirated by those who bought much cheaper TeronCX's direct from the maker MIA.
They want it because it's cheaper.
Exactly how much cheaper? And does that include the CPU? And where can I find a dealer to place an order? What's MIA's web site???
- Mike
-
mips_proc wrote:
in case you think my arguments are incorrect,
you threw logic out the window long ago when you simply say 'it came from bill and he cant be a liar' ... by quoting him on ET forums...etc... thats pure unadulturated zealot propoganda...
LOL! Read that post again and perhaps you might be able to comprehend what I actually said. :roll:
-
You're so totally disillusioned that I even don't know where to start
the same could be said of you..for believeing every single word that marketing says... do you buy candy expecting it to taste more real then real fruit's they mimic? ...if you say yes I will laugh... if you say no... then you're admitted marketing in other fields lies... if so why do you believe that in this companys case that they are any differant?.
-
Oh please, you don't even know how to spell their product name correctly. "Terron"? LOL!
I guess we're not all perfect... unlike you sameface huh?
-
Don't accuse people of things when you're not even sure
you mean like when you accuse people of lying and are proven wrong yet dont admit to it?
-
Sure, Amiga Inc. just bought the name for screwing the Amiga community.
no they bought the name for it's market value to sell PDA software... thinking 'its already got a community we just make a quick cash product and shove it down their throat enough it'll sell....what about this OS thing? commadork ? amishga? hmmmmm I think we can make some money with that to...'
-
From http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,687950,00.asp:
ET: After our news story, we had a pretty strong posting on our website. Our member said that Amiga OS "will apply some form of hardware-license mechanism, a dongle to his hardware."
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
ET: And that if you want AmigaOS, "you're not allowed to buy it. You have to buy a new Teron board."
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
ET: and that "Amiga Inc. has nothing to do with AmigaOS"
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
ET: Stop up to our message boards and set the record straight!
Bill McEwen: OK, I will
--- End quote ---
Need I say more? Troll.
------------------------------------------------------------------
having said that... you seem to think Bill isnt lying and that what he said is correct... yet everything we have seen the community shows it to be incorrect
IE: AOS4 will be rom attached to the A1
IE:the A1 is the only board licensed for AOS4
IE:AOS4 will not be retail
IE:you must either own an 'old' PPC Accel or buy the new A1 to run AOS4.... PPC Accel aside you cant just go pickup a ArticiaS based board and use AOS4 on it.
Believeing Bill is like believing in the tooth fairy... wether what he says is true or not...the end result is nobody has seen it to verify it...so logic must say he's telling a fib... but again I'm sure he would have a clever excuse handy to explain 'A1 isnt TeronCX" you can run AOS4 on the PPC accel... 'it isnt a 'rom' its a firmware OS holder' or whatever... he could talk his way out of it and prove he isnt 'directly' lying but everything he said leads to untrue conclusions.....I hope enough of the outside world listens to seehund and others and dont get screwed into buying something that was sold to them on one premise but delivers another.
-
mips_proc wrote:
You're so totally disillusioned that I even don't know where to start
the same could be said of you..for believeing every single word that marketing says... do you buy candy expecting it to taste more real then real fruit's they mimic? ...if you say yes I will laugh... if you say no... then you're admitted marketing in other fields lies... if so why do you believe that in this companys case that they are any differant?.
Yes and no. You see, I believe in facts. If the marketing is supported by facts (which they actually are sometimes) then I believe in it. You have FUD and irrational conspiracy theories, I see no reason for believing in that. It's as simple as that.
-
I believe in facts
then you believe humans all speak facts only? or is Bill a robot?
you must of course believe then the A1 and TeronCX are one in the same then....and therefore yesterday before it was proven to you ...you believed what eyetech said... therefore believing 'marketing hype' and not 'fact'?.
You have FUD and irrational conspiracy theories, I see no reason for believing in that. It's as simple as that
FUD to you(and anyone who has illogical love of A.inc a company who so far has produced nothing but PDA software).. you bieng a zealot ready to believe anything that comes from A.inc..... A.inc having proven to say things that are untrue ..IE:the extremetech interview.... you seem to believe the facts of it... once we have 'fact' to backup Bill's 'claims' they should be thought of as 'untrue' since they dont align with the 'facts' we have 'now' ...
but alas you believe them anyway... and my logic says.. a logical person who you claim to be... shouldnt believe something told to him that goes against what everything else says... Bill M wanted to sound 'cool' to ET ... because he knows lots of people see that... if he had replied to 'any' of those questions it would give an 'in' for that reviewer to make him look like a fool.
I'm actually happy he did what he did...it exposed him internally to the community for what he is...while at the same time kept face...
If the marketing is supported by facts (which they actually are sometimes) then I believe in it
I want to see what facts you can 'dig up' to prove bill wasnt telling fibs about AOS... where are these 'facts' ?... you mean AOS4 "WILL" be retail? I dont 'NEED" an A1 to run AOS4... and there IS NO Rom/Dongle/etc ?... and A.inc IS developing AOS4?... those are some pretty 'big' claims... and you call me a FUD spreader for disagreeing with them?
-
Glaucus wrote:
Okay, you tell me how much a competing motherboard + equivalent CPU goes for! According to your claim that eyetech inflates their price tag by 900% I should be able to find a TeronCX + CPU for about $50 or less. Somehow I get the hint that your entire post is nothing but malakie-es! Ask AmiGR what that means!
Mike,
I believe he is talking about other products that Eyetech is selling on their website. The Teron board is available for under $300, and at least one dealer has a $500 PPC Linux starter system which includes case, etc. My guess is we are paying for their failed first effort at designing their own board.
-Tig
-
not just the eyetech mainboard... the DCE Pegasos... and there is one other company? seehund posted a while ago that is making an ArticiaS based board... all of these are sub 500$... there are going to be more then just eyetech distributing the TeronCX/PX/etc
-
@Glaucus
Exactly how much cheaper? And does that include the CPU? And where can I find a dealer to place an order? What's MIA's web site???
I am talking about standard hardware (nothing Amiga, like Amigaone, zorro, mediator, clock port adapters etc etc)
Eyetech are rip offs and thats not make believe that is FACT, if you dont believe it just price compare any NON Amiga specific hardware and see how much they screw amiga users because "It works on the amiga" and other shady sales tactics,
If you want to support CROOKS then do so but dont expect people who can see behind the "oh but its an amiga shop and deserves our support" attitude,
-
also it Glaucus it isnt just their Boards/etc they inflate...look at all the other products... all they need to do is sell you an IDE cable and they make 90% Profiet on it..sellint an IDE cable for 2$ is like 180% profiet when you get it for 20 cents..... I used to work for a retailer who bought bulk and believe me eyetechs prices are wacko even for the UK import costs and such... their nutzo
-
Amiga.inc dosent design it...market it... make an OS for it...all they do is restrict it... It's as much an Amiga as my P4 system is an Amiga...if 'anything' with AOS on it can be badged an Amiga...
I think the root of the problem is that some people only see the technical side. But that's not how the general public sees it. Regardless of what you might think of marketing schemes, they play an important role. As it is, only Amiga Inc can say what is an Amiga and what is not, and it is totally up to their disgretion. If they pick a rock off the ground and say that's an Amiga, well it's an Amiga. They and only they have that power.
"Amiga" is and always has been just a name. Commodore used it to name their new multimedia computer back in '85. Amiga is not mystical or magical, it did not descend from the heavens nor was it handed out by the lady of the lake.
To argue that the "new" Amiga is not an Amiga is pretty stupid. It's like arguing that the new Porsche 911 isn't really a 911 because you liked the older models better. Or that the new Nissan 350Z isn't really a Z because the older 300ZX was better, or the not yet released 2004 Toyota Supra won't be a real Supra because it's not like the past Supras. All these companies own the name and can re-use that name on new cars that almost have almost no resemblence to the original product. You can love it or hate it, but you can't dispute what it is.
Now, back to the computer market.... I think Amiga Inc is doing a good thing here. The PC market is a bit different as you have a wide selection of motherboards (AUS, Gigabyte, MSI, Abit, Soyo, etc...) and CPUs (Durons, Thunbderbirds, athlons, athlonXP's, P3's, P4's, Xeon's, celerons, etc...) and you can walk into any computer retail shop and buy the parts OR have them design and build one for you. Not quite so for the PPC market. Fact is, I never even knew they sold PPC motherboards outside the iMac market. It's a market that I'm completely out of touch with, so I would be very confused about how to even start building a PPC machine for AOS4. Amiga has helped me here by labeling a particular hardware platform as the AmigaOne and made it the official platform. For me, as a clueless customer in this new market it makes my life a lot easier. It might not be the best choice but to me it seems like the safest choice. Amiga Inc may have made mistakes in the past, but as far as I'm concerned this is not one of them. This is a very smart move on their part.
- Mike
-
so if gigabyte buys Asus boards and calls them mambo rockets then their mambo rockets not Asus boards? it dosent change that technical their still asus boards... thats my point... there is no 'differance' of course they can call something amiga they bought the name...and it is an amiga from that standpoint...but there is 'nothing' special about it .....wich is why seehund and others say they should just market the OS and leave boards alone...
-
back to why eyetechs prices are wacko...
heres a link to their price of CDRW's ...
http://www.eyetech.co.uk/search.php?SearchStr=&SearchCat=AMCW (http://www.eyetech.co.uk/search.php?SearchStr=&SearchCat=AMCW)
now here is a link to pricewatch.com (keep in mind the companys on pricewatch STILL mark things up and they gotta make a profiet to... so eyetech and pricewatch companys prices should be at least 'kinda' in line..)
pricewatch (http://www.pricewatch.com)
as you can see the 'top of the line' cdrw on pricewatch is cheaper then their 16x for 84$ (assuming UKP?) so their 84 UKP is over 100 american like 120 or so ...so they import the cdrws and terrif etc...they could still sell them probably for
'half' the price and do well more then break even... yet they dont... so they are doing exactly what paul_gadd said..their milking 'amiga' value..
BTW their IDE cables are like 10 UKP... wich is probably the biggest ripoff I've ever seen... if someone wants IDE cables they can buy them in like 4 packs here for like 2$ wich is pretty high profiet ...but still 10UKP come on... it's a freakin IDE cable they come free with cases.
-
I have to agree with you there. If Amiga Inc. really wanted to have a larger audience, they could make the system open. They could do the same thing LUNIX does, have minimum specs that would allow anyone to build a system. Why should they worry about the hardware? They are a software company. Why bother licensing hardware?
-
Or PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.co.uk) which has got to be one of the most expensive hugh computer shops in UK but Eyetechs prices are a lot higher but hey you will not want to price compare or say anything bad about Eyetech because they are a Amiga company.
If Eyetech was not a amiga company many people would not touch them with a bargepole.
-
I claim? LoL....
-
Woooo... This I'll be fun...
ET: After our news story, we had a pretty strong posting on our website. Our member said that Amiga OS "will apply some form of hardware-license mechanism, a dongle to his hardware."
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
Correct. Using some kind of dongle is NOT enforced by the AmigaOS4. AmigaOS4 only requires the hardware verification binaries installed onto a ROM, preferably a flashROM, and won't even be noticable by the user at all. Refering to that as a dongle is incorrect. The dongle thing was only something Hyperion suggested as a solution to hardware which has no flashROM.
ET: And that if you want AmigaOS, "you're not allowed to buy it. You have to buy a new Teron board."
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
Correct. AmigaOS will be available seperately for Phase5 PPC board owners. Also, that should be an AmigaOne, not Teron. A Teron board will not even run AmigaOS in the first place.
ET: and that "Amiga Inc. has nothing to do with AmigaOS"
Bill McEwen: That's untrue.
Correct. There would be no AmigaOS4 at all if it wasn't for Amiga Inc. It's as simple as that.
IE: AOS4 will be rom attached to the A1
Incorrect interpretation. Enough said.
IE:the A1 is the only board licensed for AOS4
So far, yes.
IE:AOS4 will not be retail
To some extent, yes it will.
IE:you must either own an 'old' PPC Accel or buy the new A1 to run AOS4.... PPC Accel aside you cant just go pickup a ArticiaS based board and use AOS4 on it.
Well, yes you can. All you have to do is turn to your closest Amiga hardware dealer and ask him to get a licensed version of that product for you.
Now chew on that for a while... :-P
-
also it Glaucus it isnt just their Boards/etc they inflate...look at all the other products... all they need to do is sell you an IDE cable and they make 90% Profiet on it..sellint an IDE cable for 2$ is like 180% profiet when you get it for 20 cents..... I used to work for a retailer who bought bulk and believe me eyetechs prices are wacko even for the UK import costs and such... their nutzo
Well, if you can get me an IDE cable for $2 then send me a crateful. I just picked up an IDE cable for about CDN$13 + taxes, that would be close USD$9 (or $10 after taxes). I found this listing on their website:
CAB40-2W-20C 40 way IDE cable 2 connector 20cm 4.25
I assume that's in either British Pounds or Euros. Eitherway, the price is on par with what I'd get it here locally.
Using cables as a comparison is rather lame as well. Everyone knows they're getting ripped off when they buy cables. Trust me, I know, I'm big into home audio and home theater as well and it's easy to find a foot long interconnect retailing for over $200.
I took a glance over their prices and I didn't see any that were way out of line. I only noticed that they seem to deal with older equipment. No DDR ram for example, just PC100/133 ram. Personally, I think you guys just have an axe to grind with EyeTech. If their prices really are out of line for something like an IDE cable then it will eventually auto-correct as their IDE cable sales will dry up. That's the beauty of capitalism! I trust that the consumer, at the time of purchase will shop around for the best deal and will make the best choice they can. If EyeTech isn't the best choice then EyeTech will feel the pain without your help.
- Mike
-
so if gigabyte buys Asus boards and calls them mambo rockets then their mambo rockets not Asus boards?
That too happens in the car market all the time. Mitsubishi for example sold Eclipse parts to Chrysler that then built the Eagle Talon. The Talon was eventually discontinued in the US but remained here in Canada since Mitsubishi does not deal in Canada (although I hear they are re-entering the market real soon, if not already). So, when someone here in Canada bought a Talon, they were technically really buying an Eclipse even though Mits doesn't operate within Canada. But Talon owners don't consider themselves to be Eclipse owners, if in fact they even know about the connection.
The Mits 3000GT and the Dodge Stealth were in the same situation. And Ford owns Jaguar, but I doubt too many Jag owners would admit to driving a Ford lately.
Anyway, back to the argument at hand... My argument in my previous post (or perhaps two posts ago) about how selecting and labelling an official platform makes good marketing sense still stands and wasn't really addressed.
- Mike
-
My advice to those out there moaning about the prices of Eyetech's AmigaOne bundles is buy the board and cpu from Eyetech and buy everything else from wherever you can get it, the cheapest as along as you know what bits are supported by AmigaOS 4.0.
Building up a system isn't like rocket science.
Myself, I wouldn't buy one of their bundles and the only reason I can think of buying one of them, is if you're really worried that you don't know what you're doing or for piece of mind.
-
mips_proc wrote:
I believe in facts
then you believe humans all speak facts only? or is Bill a robot?
you must of course believe then the A1 and TeronCX are one in the same then....and therefore yesterday before it was proven to you ...you believed what eyetech said... therefore believing 'marketing hype' and not 'fact'?.
Eeeeh, exactly what was proven? No, on the contrary, I prooved that Eyetech's design is an improvement of the original Teron CX design and that the revision 2 design of Teron CX didn't show up until 2-3 months after Eyetech's version. This tells me that it's more *likely* that the TeronCX design revision 2 is based on Eyetech's improved version of the TeronCX revision 1 rather than the opposite. Yes, the current specifications of those two designs are the same, BUT THAT DOES NOT PROOVE THAT THESE IMPROVEMENTS OF THE DESIGN WERE NOT MADE BY EYETECH. Logic is a good thing, study it.
I just wish you would stop using this weird "A has to be true because B is not equal to A" logic, because it isn't logical.
-
Ehm, Samface, without saying that the AmigaONE
is bad, it's very good for what it is, the "improvements", were changes in the machine
specs, done so that the PCB will need no changes
that's why there are so many unsoldered stuff in
the Teron/AmigaONE boards, the Teron is an evalutation design, in order to make boards you
want for testing or production.
-
They could do the same thing LUNIX does, have minimum specs that would allow anyone to build a system.
Yeah, but:
1) Linux isn't marketted so to do the same as linux would be to do nothing
2) Linux is for geeks. Not only do ya have to build your PC but your kernal as well. Nothing turned me off from linux more then installing it on my PC. After tracking down a linux driver for my NIC all I was able to come up with was a .c file. That's when I decided to free that partition up for something more useful like WinXP. Linux is great if you're into wasting many hours a day in front of your PC configuring, tweaking and recompiling the kernal. No thanks! The only thing to learn from linux is it's mistakes!
3) Building on point 2 above, Linux has yet to really penetrate the home market and it's games market has evaporated. Why? Perhaps because there is no LinuxOne! If they could slap together some hardware and OS and sell it as a package linux have a far better chance in the home market. As it stands the chance that joe six pack will build himself a linux box is atronomically remote. The idea is to make not only the AmigaOS user friendly but the buying process user friendly as well. Unfortunately linux sucks in both departments.
- Mike
-
Linux stands a way better chance of penetrating the home market then AOS does....it has all modern features and at least with KDE a non-confusing GUI.. AOS looks old and it acts old..I agree AOS shouldnt follow the Linux demo..they should follow Windows...and improve the OS to at least semi-modern capabilities.. but they wanna dongle it to one board...so ohh well..
Not only do ya have to build your PC but your kernal as well
and quotes like this comming from you look very ignorant... considering Linux can come OEM you dont have to build your PC"s..... and re-compiling the kernel has been a thing of the past for 'average' users for like 3 years now.... and it supports virtually everything.... aside from 'special' hardware like NLE's/etc
If you cant get through a SuSE/Mandrake Install you gotta be a pretty screwed up human bieng... you litterly can sit and just click 'yes yes yes yes yes' over and over and get it on a box...
The only thing to learn from linux is it's mistakes
considering Linux runs on virtually all architectures...it's used all over the world and developed by thousands of people I would say A.inc (a handful of amatures compared to the names found in the Linux community) they should be learning all the can from Linux... it's the only OS that did what they want to do 'first' ...
Perhaps because there is no LinuxOne! If they could slap together some hardware and OS and sell it as a package linux have a far better chance in the home market
so you think if they sold expensive... slow... out-dated systems for more money then the current Wintel hardware... they would make it big?...
I think the 'entire' reason Linux is big and used everywhere by companys/developers/etc is because it's free and lots of people can work on it...and it dosent cost a ton of money or require hugely slow and expensive hardware to get the same job done...
in fact when you get your A1 and it comes with Linux you should try installing it... it's part of the reason you're a1 excists isnt it? to sell to Linux developers..
As it stands the chance that joe six pack will build himself a linux box is atronomically remote
and how many joe six packs have the money to throw away and obselete-before-it-was-made computer that hasnt got a single modern app for it and thus wont run Office or surf the web properly?..
The idea is to make not only the AmigaOS user friendly but the buying process user friendly as well. Unfortunately linux sucks in both departments.
Ok I call up IBM and I say 'I want a blah blah workstation throw RH on it" ......thats as easy as it is to get an IBM with Linux on it...throw them my credit card number and get an X86 Linux box.. same with HP/Compaq... Dell...etc....
an AmigaOne?...I gotta install AOS myself how many people know how easy that is?... since the board shows up with Linux ... this is after I had to build an entire system useing the board with the dongle on it... then after that I got an OS that looks ugly and needs about 2 months of work done....granted AOS4 may change all this...but they talk about AOS4 like its 3.9 ported to PPC with transperant windows...and from the looks of it it isnt much differant.
gimme a break AOS is ten times the geek OS then Linux is...it takes tons of work to make it look nice...and even more work to get it online...
I buy SuSE 8.1 and I slap it onto virtually any X86 machine built within the last 4 years and it goes on without a hitch... internet is simple as a handful of clicks... it comes ready to run..and it's solid as a rock... no crashes.. no gurus...no memmory issues... AOS is a geeks OS...just because it dosent have an open source kernel dosent mean it isnt without tons of work needing to be done to make it viable...let alone having apps...wich you forget to mention.. Linux having thousands of modern applications from web browsers to 3D tools suchas Maya/SI|3D/Amazon Paint/etc etc etc...many installing as RPM's... some needing to compiled...some are bin's that need an A+X thrown in front of them like the Java from sun...
that makes me laugh...an amiga person bitching about Linux bieng to hard to install and use...and how he has to compile a kernel.and installation was to hard... if you can configure you amiga to get online you should have the brains to install Linux..
I'm not a Linux zealot... currently out of my plethora of box's at home... I have Windows on 5 machines... 3 bieng rendering box's with NT 4.0 and 2 bieng 2K box's for 3D work...I got Linux on my Network File server and FreeBSD(must scare you even more) on my mail server running sendmail... I've never had a problem with Linux even yggdrasil installed fairly easily with the right hardware... I think you're just finding an excuse to bash it because you dont want to learn a handful of shell commands...
you should go back and try it again it's evolved quite a bit since YggDrasil was king....currently installing SuSE/Lycoris/Lindows/Mandrake/RedHat/Connectiva/etc is 'easier' and faster then installing WinXP... I dont know if your running some sort of bizzare machine and it's very old and you tried to install a strange distro from the mid 90's or what...but you got a very meligned view of the Linux situation in general.
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Hmm, this forum grew before I even knew it! And I was inclined to stay out of it, seeing the usual badly spelt salivations of the anti-A1 brigade, and more badly conceived open standard PPC drivelings from another regular member, and of course the same old pre-pubescent rantings I have heard so many, many times before... So this time, I'm not even going to bother arguing, but just post this to annoy some people. You know who you are.
You people don't like A1? It's the new Amiga, so get used to it. You say anyone who buys it are suckers? Well, allow me on the behalf of all present and future A1 purchasers to both say I have very little interest in your trollings, and to humbly present my polished derriere for you to osculate. Thank you.
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...and now he claims that Linux is more user-friendly than AmigaOS. *sigh*
Whatever, man...
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...and now he claims that Linux is more user-friendly than AmigaOS. *sigh*
believe what you want...but that guy telling stories about needing to compile the kernel..and such ...is just bogus info... SuSE 8.1 is the most easy OS to install and setup that I've ever used... even moreso then WindowsXP... it's a simple 'click click click' process of install... AOS is much more complex to setup and get online and get working right...AOS4 may change 'some' but not all of that...
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Glaucus:
>Oh give me a break, the A500 wasn't all that
>exciting either but they called it an Amiga and it
>sold like crazy! Aside from it's OCS chipset, it had
>nothing really going for it
But that's the point. The OCS made the Amiga 500 insanely exciting at the time. It was far better than anything else on the market, hardware-wise (affordable home computer market). The Amiga was synonymous with excellent hardware as well as an excellent operating system. It was truly innovative and "ahead of its time".
Are you really claiming that the Amiga 500 was not an exciting piece of technology when it came on the market? Insane. This is exactly what the Amiga was about. Excellence and elegance. It had the best technology and "therefore" the best software. And that is why it sold.
The AmigaOne, on the other hand, is not particularily excellent or elegant. Compared to the current computer market, it is expensive and underperformed. Since this clearly is the case, the point I was trying to make was that perhaps we shouldn't try to associate the name Amiga with this mediocre hardware anymore and instead rely on its strengths such as the operating system and perhaps, if one chooses to think so, the AmigaDE.
Calling a mediocre piece of hardware (and I do appreciate their work in creating it) Amiga just to make it a bit more interesting is, in my opinion, potentially harmful for the trademark in the long run. Short-sighted thinking. Why not just have different names for various standard PPC boards and then have an AmigaOS run on them - and if we must use the name Amiga on hardware, reserve it to some special designs that excel in other merits such as things like the new iMac or many things the Apple does - they use standard hardware too, but at least they preserve their trademark qualities by making it unique in other ways.
The AmigaOne, well, even if it has been created with the best of intentions is a mediocre piece of hardware that is expensive and full of yesterdays technology compared to other competitors in the home computer market. Associating the name Amiga with that may help it in the short term (since the hardware is nothing interesting at least it has an interesting name), but may hurt the name Amiga in the long run...
Do we really want people to think yesterdays expensive hardware in a standard PC box when they hear the word Amiga?
Unlike AmigaOS, which clearly needs to go through its natural progression and that will take time and certainly they need to release something in between until they reach something competetive with modern operating systems, there is no need to call the Teron board an Amiga other than to make a selling point. The problem is, it also means that people will perceive it as the new Amiga and judge it as such - and I'm afraid that won't do the name Amiga any good.
Please re-read my post on page 1 of this thread and try to understand my point. It is not meant to discredit any of the people working on these products, but to discuss the potential implications using the name and how people will perceive it.
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jtsiren wrote:
Are you really claiming that the Amiga 500 was not an exciting piece of technology when it came on the market? Insane. This is exactly what the Amiga was about. Excellence and elegance. It had the best technology and "therefore" the best software. And that is why it sold.
The AmigaOne, on the other hand, is not particularily excellent or elegant. Compared to the current computer market, it is expensive and underperformed. Since this clearly is the case, the point I was trying to make was that perhaps we shouldn't try to associate the name Amiga with this mediocre hardware anymore and instead rely on its strengths such as the operating system and perhaps, if one chooses to think so, the AmigaDE.
But surely, if we are considering the benefits of trademarks for the majority of people, then it is better to choose something that makes the machine seem good. Ie, a name that makes them think of something with decent affordable hardware - even if it is no longer true - rather than a name that says "Well actually, this machine is a bit crap, but you might still want to buy one, maybe". If we're talking in the long run, then remember that most people won't remember the AmigaOS as being good in anyway, and most people don't give a damn about what OS a machine runs.
That the strengths of the platform have changed over the decade is not really that different to other platforms.
Calling a mediocre piece of hardware (and I do appreciate their work in creating it) Amiga just to make it a bit more interesting is, in my opinion, potentially harmful for the trademark in the long run. Short-sighted thinking.
I can see the argument that associating bad hardware with the Amiga trademark is not a good idea. But I don't see something with an 800MHz G4 as bad or even mediocre - the biggest problem is its expense. But I don't think that necessarily harms a trademark, if the 'expense' is associated in some way with 'better' (eg, consider Macs).
and if we must use the name Amiga on hardware, reserve it to some special designs that excel in other merits such as things like the new iMac or many things the Apple does - they use standard hardware too, but at least they preserve their trademark qualities by making it unique in other ways.
Um, Apple use the Mac/Macintosh trademark for all their computers [that run MacOS], and not just odd ones like the iMac. And then when they released a different OS, they called that MacOS too. The AmigaOne will be just as "unique" from most computers as Macs are.
Do we really want people to think yesterdays expensive hardware in a standard PC box when they hear the word Amiga?
Do people think this when they think of Macs? Some do, certainly, but plenty don't..
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takemehomegrandma wrote:
The AmigaOne board IS THE AMIGA BOARD, cos it's licensed.
Well, thats a pity, isn't it? I mean that you can call anything "Amiga". I remember a time when the brand "Amiga" stood for exciting technology ...
Then what about pc manufactors then?? they do the same thing... use standard parts...
You people wont stop bitching unless the new amiga has all custom chipsets, like zorro, aga...
Amiga cant do that, cause then who the heck would produce fuc*ing gfx cards?? Its just plain pointless... If you want a classic amiga, just stick with your old outdated Amigas.